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User Topic: Long Term Affairs - Part 31
hopeandchange
♂ Member
Member # 33287
Default  Posted: 12:10 PM, March 24th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I will try to remember in the future when I post directly to you that I type the word "quote, end quote" if I am including a quote.

Sister.. nice thought and it is not necessary. I try to make my adjustements to the norm and not require others to make adjustments to me. This gives me the best integration at all times. If I am ever confused ablut the post, I expand the text and read it as others do.

So, do we all have the same voice when you listen to us?

Literally, yes. It is the same "voice" for everything I listen to using the read to me feature. However, it does come across differently for each of you as your styles are different. So, while the voice is the same, each of you are unique.

And when I listen to podcasts, I get the voices that are recorded.


As for your wife......

Some times you have to risk losing your marriage to save it.
Open the door and let her have her freedom.

Do not beg or plead anymore as that will make her feel as if she is trapped.

Let her see if freedom and the single life is all she thinks it will be.

Let her deal with the consequences of her actions.

njgal..you are so right on all counts as our the others that have advised similar course of action.

This week:

Sun. St. Patricks Day. W takes off wedding ring and says we are done, period.

Mon. W visits lawyer and we have a long personal talk that evening. I am very sad about the end of the M.

Wed. We are picking up son and having light conversation about D issues. W says "I am not signing on the line tommorrow" followed by I had "mixed feelings today"

Fri. I told W that I still love her, want the M, willing to stay and work on it as long as she is willing AND CANNOT stay if she will not wear her wedding ring. W says "she is tired,does not want to talk now, and let's go to sleep."

Sat. I notice W is wearing wedding ring and I say thank you. W replies "that it is important to you". Still, I felt like this made her more resentful. The one common phrase I hear these days is "I do not want to hurt you." My response is that "you can either hurt me with a D, I will not pretend it does not hurt, or you can get fully back into the M and work on making it great for both of us. There is no other option for me."

So, yes, I need to really work on myself. This week was W birthday and passover is Monday. So, it is busy and filled with family moments.


MC_Jack.. the phone records. My recent experience on the privacy issue. Saturday, W and I were going upstairs for the evenign and I stayed downstairs to reply to your question on my vision.

I told my W why I was delayed. Sharing my vision issues with the folks on SI. W reply was concern about privacy and I am revealing too much personal information. Someone might realize who I am.

I did not laugh but responded calmly to her concrn. JMHO, W is concerned that someone may find out that W had an A. OMG, someone could learn the truth.

On a separate note, DS has been treating me poorly lately as if he is pissed at me. I wonder if he thinks I have caused the D through some "indiscretion" and am treating his mother poorly in a D. Just wondering.


I am in the same profession as you

Now I know the source of our troubles.

Hope all have had a great, fantastic weekend.

h&c

BTW.. DS went 4 for 6 in a double header this weekend.


BH (me, 50)
WS (her, 48)
Divorced!
3 wonderful teens
Heading for Happiness

Posts: 401 | Registered: Sep 2011
trynhard
♂ Member
Member # 22698
Default  Posted: 6:17 AM, March 25th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Sat. I notice W is wearing wedding ring and I say thank you. important to you".

Good you rewarded good behaviors.. Keep the theme.. LOOK WIFE, DON”T DO me any favors. YOU are in this M for YOU and Me BOTH.. onesided thinking you just walk out the door.

NO WIFE… It only matters if you want to be in this marriage and it is IMPORTANT TO YOU.. You don’t do this for me, YOU do it for YOU.


The one common phrase I hear these days is "I do not want to hurt you."

YOU are hurting me and I WILL GET OVER IT.. I am a catch and some woman would love to have me.

MOST PERFECT!!

My response is that "you can either hurt me with a D, I will not pretend it does not hurt, or you can get fully back into the M and work on making it great for both of us. There is no other option for me."


On a separate note, DS has been treating me poorly lately as if he is pissed at me. I wonder if he thinks I have caused the D through some "indiscretion" and am treating his mother poorly in a D. Just wondering.

IMO.. you address every bad behavoir. Do it is calm way. Do not get angered.

"Son, what you just said to me is not proper. I want you to stop. I love you with so many blessing and I expect it in return. RESET. Good game last night!" no debate, no argue.. let it go afterwards.. unless he needs more pressure on the same item.

You can pull him aside and say share with him. You have been under much stress lately. I am asking you to please be kind with both your mother and me for awhile. Just help around the house, take no risk to get in trouble.. be a good man. I respect you greatly and will continue with all you do. If you have any questions, asked me. I will tell you.

If he accuses you.. Say, son, I have done my best to live up to my vows. I have made some mistakes along they way but I can feel pride I have done a good job. Hug him. If he flat out says... did you cheat. YOu tell him the truth.. I place great value in marriage. I lived my vows like a good man live them. YOur mom and my relationship is not your concern right now. We will always love you no matter what happens to us.


H&C.. I once told my DD that it is none of her business and stay out of it! In my raised voice. She did. Today.. she knows all and we all have the best of relationships.

[This message edited by trynhard at 7:02 AM, March 25th (Monday)]


Posts: 2636 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
ReunitePangea
♂ Member
Member # 37529
Default  Posted: 8:00 AM, March 25th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hello Tribe,

I just had a 4-day out of town weekend with several of my old friends from college - lots of watching sports, drinking beer and playing cards. It was nothing short of awesome, feels good to give all this stuff a rest for a bit and get grounded again with some old friends.

H&C - thank you so much for sharing your story. I have to admit everytime you spoke of losing your vision I often wondered how you were posting here. Your story is very amazing and inspiring. It takes amazing strength to do what you do everyday. I know that strength you have will get you through all of this.


BS - Me 38
WS - Wife 39
D-Day - Oct 12
Married 10 years
OM1 - 12-year LTA
OM2 - 9 month A turned into open relationship with couple for another 1 1/2 years

Posts: 406 | Registered: Nov 2012
ImNellNow
♀ Member
Member # 28753
Default  Posted: 11:06 PM, March 25th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I read the following in another forum, and got permission from the author to repost it here. I found it thoughtful and thought-provoking, and thought some here might find it the same.
I'm not saying that you should have NO requirements of him.....even now, I do ask my H for certain things: his room number at the hotel (so I can call the room at any time to see if he's there, not just his cell phone), GPS on his personal phone which he is to have at all times, to keep in touch when he's out via occasional calls/texts/pics, and to let me know where he's going to dinner and with who.

But if you're thinking that him texting you every hour is going to stop him from cheating if he wants to, or that it'll be something you can keep up for the rest of your marriage, it may bear some further investigation as to the thoughts/feelings behind your requests, and what you expect his compliance to accomplish. Don't drive yourself crazy. Make sure that the things you ask for are things that will not simply make you more upset.

It's also worth noting that by trying to hold on to him so tightly, he's not having to do as much REAL work. He can tick off his little list: texted TCD at 1pm, texted TCD at 2pm, sent a vid at 3pm....and then claim that he's doing *so much work* towards R. But are hourly texts really what R is made of? In IC, I learned that I can let my H know what I need (i.e. more contact when he's out) and why (so that I feel that he is sharing his travel life with me, maintaining our connection, and not out whoring it up) but then I need to back off and watch what he does. I can't make him be faithful or put effort into our relationship. I can watch what he does, and then make a decision from there as to whether his behavior is sufficient for me to remain in the marriage. A very depressing idea at first, because I'd much rather be able to direct all aspects of my life, but once I started to accept it and quit directing ALL the work in R, my H finally stepped up. We were no longer doing the dance where I demanded and chased and did the work, and he "complied" and pulled away. Instead, I pulled back and waited for HIM (note: I didn't go silent and make him "guess" what I wanted, but I didn't spoon feed him either). I broke the pattern, and he woke up and noticed and had to change HIS behavior in order to maintain the connection that I'd always been responsible for before.


Thanks, MFC2011!


BS & D
Drinking wine and thinking bliss is on the other side of this.

Posts: 2370 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Baby steps on my new path
iwantamiracle
♀ Member
Member # 22812
Default  Posted: 8:07 AM, March 26th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Nell: that post is spot on...its exactly what i did....its the only way imo.....give them the rope with which to either pull themselves out of the ditch or to hang from......

i never once considered myself in reconcillitaion either...he had to do the work to get the marriage back on track and when on track then you work on reconcilliation....there is sooo much damage caused by cheating and that damage must be addressed before you can rebuild.....kind of like all these homes here in ny that were damaged from hurricane sandy....the damage was extensive..some homes needed to be demolished, some needed to be gutted and some just needed some new siding, a fence....with marriage...some need to be ended, some need to go back to the beginning, some just need some new boundaries.......each marriage as is each home, is individual with different needs.....but all suffer the damage and loss!!


(((tribe)))


i am taking my life back, one step at a time!!!!!

Posts: 5994 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: looking for my rainbow
trynhard
♂ Member
Member # 22698
Default  Posted: 4:15 AM, March 27th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

You guys know I travel about every week. This is the second time this has happened to me in the past 2 years. What happens to us always gives us thoughts and gut feelings.

The first time was a hotel. I pulled into the lot for an early check in. As I was getting my stuff together, a woman pull in after me. She got on her cell phone. I triggered knowing I searched every phone record for months looking for these quick calls when I was away. I found at least one a week for months and months. A minute later, a man opens the hotel side door.. she gets out and walks through. I did notice her ring. At the time, I knew exactly what it was about. No way she meets her H for lunch at the hotel. I wish I had the ablity to search car licence tags. But I thought.. They will get caught sooner or later. It always happens.

This time, I pulled into a local park to write a quick report. It was lunch time. As I drove up I could see two cars parked next to each other. It is amazing to think we have an amazing gift.. our own gut feelings. I got it immediately when I saw the two cars… An afternoon adultery liaison. So I intentionally pulled my car uncomfortably close. After a few minutes.. up pops the other head from his lap. Expecting to see a woman… nope it was another man.

My mind tricked me this time.

[This message edited by trynhard at 4:24 AM, March 27th (Wednesday)]


Posts: 2636 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
trynhard
♂ Member
Member # 22698
Default  Posted: 4:29 AM, March 27th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

This was exactly my W..

Many times when one spouse or significant other involved in a relationship strays, it was with someone that they have known in their past or are around on a daily basis. The most common type of long term affair is between co-workers. Most times, small companies employ a handful of employees and those employees are usually grouped into sections. Within those sections, those co-workers deal with each other on a daily basis. When that occurs, people are prone to get to know each other and in turn become more comfortable around each other. Because of their newly found comfort, these cozy co-workers begin to share items from their personal lives. Once that occurs, some co-workers realize that they have something in common with the other co-worker. Whether it be a mutual physical attraction to each other, or a mutual problem within their personal relationships, or a common interest that they both enjoy spending time with, the co-workers begin to develop a personal tie to each other. Once that occurs, then one or both parties begin to imagine the other in a role more than that of a co-worker. As time goes on both co-workers begin to become more daring in their personal conversations, flirting with each other, sharing plans that each other have in hopes that the other will show up, spending lunch hours together or just meeting other co-workers at a common happy hour location. Each co-worker finds a way to spend time with the other in a manner that may appear innocent to others around them, but at the same time, allowing them to spend as much time together as possible.

This type of activity creates a fragile home environment in which the potential cheater is already, in their mind, attempting to find a way to spend less time at home and more time with their co-worker. They begin to create reasons why they have to stay late at work. They volunteer for assignments with the other co-worker that they normally wouldn't take on; they begin text messaging each other regarding work related issues and eventually exchange cell phone numbers so they can contact each other immediately upon having a work related reason to converse. As that phase continues on, one or both of the co-workers then has a problem at home. Because both parties are now at the point that they want to be with each other and the only thing standing in their way is their personal, existing relationships and the thought of doing the right thing, they then begin to hope for any minor problems at home. Once that occurs, whether it be an argument over finances, or an argument over shared responsibilities or even something as minimal as whose turn it is to take out the dog, the potential cheater will exaggerate the significance of the argument and turn it into a bigger problem. Not because the potential cheater wants to fight with their spouse or significant other, but because they are justifying in their mind how terrible their current relationship is so they can either cheat or think about leaving their spouse or significant other without the normal feelings of guilt associated with the act of infidelity.

Eventually when the potential cheater has created enough tension at home, for a long enough period of time, they being to think of life with their new adulterous partner. They begin to think of what their life would be like if they were to leave their significant other or spouse. They envision themselves having to move out of their current residence or how they would be able to get their spouse or significant other to leave. They envision how they would be able to survive financially without the other and how much of their money or equity they may lose in the process. They begin contemplating the effects of their family, children or friends if they were to leave their spouse. They contemplate the idea that if they leave their spouse and keep their side relationship a secret for a long enough period of time, they could then begin to bring their relationship into light and create the appearance that they never cheated. They were just single for a while and then began dating the adulterous partner that no one knows. The only problem with that is it doesn't quite work that way.

The potential cheater then realizes that if they have to give up half of their net worth, or savings account or may have to move out of their own home and pay alimony or sometimes palimony to their spouse, they may not be able to afford it. If there are children involved then there is the factor of having to pay child support until their children turn eighteen years of age. Those financial factors compiled with the idea that after spending all of that money on their ex-spouse and children, they may not have enough money left over to wine and dine their new partner in a manner where he or she may be impressed. The potential cheater then realizes that without his spouse and the comfort of his current life, he or she may not be able to enjoy time spent with their new adulterous partner. Due to that fact, they decide to stay in their relationship and begin a new and secret affair on the side. That way, they can continue the comfort of their current lives and still obtain the excitement of their new relationship.

Over time, now that the cheaters is involved with this co-worker and has been for some time, covering their tracks, hiding their trail, deleting their text messages and voice mails, sneaking around and lying about where they have been and what they were doing, their spouse begins to get suspicious. The cheater's spouse then starts to notice the signs of cheating, and eventually hires an investigator to develop the evidence needed to prove it to themselves. That evidence eventually is used to end the relationship or marriage and both parties move on with their lives. Long term relationships with an adulterous partner can start in many, many different ways, however they all have the same ingredients.

(1) A mutual attraction between two people that have become close over some time,
(2) A slowing or difficult time in their current marriage or relationship,
(3) Opportunity. If a cheater has opportunity, it will fuel their adulterous relationship potential as the free time or the easy to explain situations allows them the freedom to spend that intimate time with their adulterous partner.

So.. My W is a very compassionate woman toward others. She cares how others feel.

Mike was mentioned again. He is in trouble at the law firm she works. The company is borrowing to make payroll. They don’t have the big cases in the pipeline. They are now late on rent. My W explains the partners need to cut cost. So, they are placing pressure on Mike. They are now placing blame on him not bringing in the cases or settling fast enough. Mike has no control over his cases nor how they come in the office. They give him the shit cases. She tells me Mike has three small kids, no money because of a failed business a couple years ago. Sad huh?

So I trigger some knowing her OM had a very sick son and would share that tragedy and pain in his life pulling at my sweet W’s heart. It is intimate.

I can remember the same kind of discussions from years ago. My W says she fell for her OM in about 8-9 months. I got the.. "I don't know how it happen.. it just happened"

Oh how different it is this time. No man is going to walk on my turf without a fight. No, the fight is not with Mike.

The old me never cared, concerned my self about any man. I ignored society and the approval of affairs. I place way too much value in those famous last words.. “I do”

That is how affairs begin..

My wife is a very physically attractive woman. Mike is in some pain right now needing an ego boost. It always begins with some personal talk and sharing of feelings. He is a man who needs sex and wants it with someone other than his wife. That is a typical man. He wants to have sex with my W.. (generalities ladies) My W might be totally oblivious.

I know what he thinks because I am a man myself. He might not have been through infidelity to be keenly aware of relationships who now can be honest with himself.

The flirting now begins.. if not some already.

Now I am a very confident man. I execute all those things of a quality man. Part of being attractive is to lay the law down but in such a way it does not jeopardize any intimacy. I don't fear Mike, a somewhat broken man right now. You read about all those men who's wives fell for the "loser".. The above is how it happens... it is about only romance and those feelings. The escape from real world M life. Mike is not part of my home life to face the everyday piles of laundry, painting, etc.. my world is very secure, his is not. I am very comfortable.. but not complacent. He needs an escape... a romance is the high.. I would wish to believe my W is solid... rare in today's soap box watching world where are affairs are not that taboo.. I read in the betrayed men thread say they want.. A woman who accepts them for who they are. But attractions are very powerful especailly if you are not that man who I describe. Not easy to be that man. It take work and awareness.

I make efforts often to be romantic. Yes, effort because those lust feelings are long gone. It now is far different.. you can remember those feeling when you first meet someone new..yes? The affair is mostly always about romance, once you get by the flirting. My effort may prevent my W from falling for the flirts. Even the fact she now knows the pain of infidelity so now she will never risk hurting me is a factor. I am not in her mind because it is rare to share a some of these feelings. I take no risk. But at the same time, I am conflicting in the most effective way to not push my W away.

So far, I have given her very light pressure. I said this when she last mention of Mike.

"Mike is a grown man and he will find his way. He should be looking for a new job. I wish him well. It is not our concern."

Mike is going to be mentioned again. They work together and the chit chat is going to happen. It is a given.

“honey, you seem to be getting very close to Mike. He will find his way. All you can do is recommend another firm. That’s all. I try very hard not to involve myself in those woman at my work. I don’t share our life or feelings because I respect you.”

She will get it. And if she chooses to continue her… what I call her “compassionate ways”, that will be her choice. My W’s own security will be felt by me next time. In a way that is not offensive. She may feel offended because she is that kind of woman who feels other people and thier pain. She will know my value.. That value protect me. No implied consequence next time, they will be the first real consequence... and I will ramp them up. She can take it underground should she want. But she will make a mistake and she won't like what I do because I am ready for the tempory pain.. if I even have pain.

She can choose my world or chase that feeling.. only to have those same feelings she has today once those initial chemicals are immune to the temporary high.

Long term relationships with an adulterous partner can start in many, many different ways, however they all have the same ingredients.


See, there are people in this world who can behave in such a way that #1 can be made aware. It may or may not stop the progress of any A, but it can awaken someone. A spouse will make comments, stay late at work.. behave in ways you have a chance to detect. Your gut might even tell you.

I can control #2. I do this by being a quality man at all times. Attractive people attract people.

And #3? Transparency is critical. I can place pressure on someone who hides things.. I and protect myself from bad behavoirs tha always are exposed. LTA's always have that opportunity, always!

So my W is going to be Romanced this weekend. Mike will have a tough time competing against me.

Now imagine if I was this man years ago. Be a new person and protect youself. And teach your kids.

[This message edited by trynhard at 6:09 AM, March 27th (Wednesday)]


Posts: 2636 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
7yrsflushed
♂ Member
Member # 32258
Default  Posted: 8:22 AM, March 27th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

“honey, you seem to be getting very close to Mike. He will find his way. All you can do is recommend another firm. That’s all. I try very hard not to involve myself in those woman at my work. I don’t share our life or feelings because I respect you.”

Mike will have a tough time competing against me.

Tryn why would you even want to see this as a competition. A quick way to squash it would be to tell your W that she is on the slippery slope with "Mike" and remind her that this is how A's start and that she either needs to choose her continued discussions with Mike or you. Why even put yourself in the position, even if it's just in your head, of trying to compete with him. To me that implies that he is on equal or almost equal ground with you and you are trying to make your W choose you.

You are assuming that Mike is being honest with your W and not "running game". If he is being honest then they both are on the slope and could potentially fall. If he is a "player" then he is feeding her a line of crap and you don't know what she is telling him. Players actively seek out people with poor boundaries and actively push them over time towards the edge. So if he sees the "woah is me" tactic won't work but your W is still talking to him and showing interest, even if it's unintentional, he will keep changing up the tactics until he hits on one that does pull her down the slope.

I understand your method but are you making assumptions about OM that may or may not be true. In this case maybe Mike is just a dude down on his luck that is unaware of "slippery slopes" but ther are plenty of men and women for that matter that actively pursue people and live for the chase and would not give up unless they are unequivacably told to back the hell off. If your W likes attention then a "player" would know or keep trying until he figured out what buttons to push because she isn't respecting her own personal boundaries.

I could be way off but just my 2 cents.


D-day 5/24/11
BH = Me
STBXWW = Her
2 children
The first true sense of calm I felt in YEARS was when I filed for D...
Separated 6/2013, D official around 6/2014

Posts: 1585 | Registered: May 2011
ImNellNow
♀ Member
Member # 28753
Default  Posted: 9:12 AM, March 27th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Oh, tryn. I'm so sorry. It seems obvious from what you've heard from your W that she's busting through some very obvious marriage boundaries. (Does she understand that such boundaries exist... and why?) Please take care of yourself. I am so so sad to hear this...

Nell


BS & D
Drinking wine and thinking bliss is on the other side of this.

Posts: 2370 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Baby steps on my new path
ReunitePangea
♂ Member
Member # 37529
Default  Posted: 9:30 AM, March 27th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Tryn - I have to agree with 7 years 2x4 for you a bit.

Long term relationships with an adulterous partner can start in many, many different ways, however they all have the same ingredients.

(1) A mutual attraction between two people that have become close over some time,
(2) A slowing or difficult time in their current marriage or relationship,
(3) Opportunity. If a cheater has opportunity, it will fuel their adulterous relationship potential as the free time or the easy to explain situations allows them the freedom to spend that intimate time with their adulterous partner.

I actually disagree with the above statement. I don't think (2) needs to be an ingredient even and I feel my own situation is evidence of this. To me there really is a certain amount of a drug addiction comparison with these LTA's. As I watch my own WW I am already seeing it. Right now I have a similar situation as you - my WW is currently in contact with a guy who I do not know at all - she knew him years ago though before me. He is married in an open relationship and has asked my WW to go to a couple of swinger parties already. I know that my WW has been tempted but when the time came did not go. She does not know that I even know right now and obviously I am watching the situation very carefully. To me it is very much a drug addiction for her. I even think right now she just thinks that maybe she will just go and see what it like, "there is no harm is just checking it out and not doing anything" in her rationalized mind - just to breathe in some second hand smoke type thinking. I am becoming increasingly aware that I need to break this drug addiction. On top of that like all former drug addicts I need to be watchful of behavior that presents itself as a slippery slope for the drug addict.

I think your wife's "Mike" is her drug of choice as you have already recognized. A needy man at work that "listens" to her and she sympathizes with. Former drug addicts need occasional reminding of what the consequences of returning to their former life could mean. Don't underestimate the powers of addiction - they maybe stronger that your loving touch can handle.


BS - Me 38
WS - Wife 39
D-Day - Oct 12
Married 10 years
OM1 - 12-year LTA
OM2 - 9 month A turned into open relationship with couple for another 1 1/2 years

Posts: 406 | Registered: Nov 2012
trynhard
♂ Member
Member # 22698
Default  Posted: 9:38 AM, March 27th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

7yrsflushed
Perhaps you are right with the competition. I can agree with that. He is not competition with me and I know I am in a far different league than him then about everything. I don’t think Mike is a player. What he does he may not even realize himself. We all know the slippery slope but it does not mean nature just doesn’t take you down that path. My W is in a far different place too. She has gone down that path once before. She knows the consequences… not that end to the point I am no longer part of her world, but she knows the tremendous pain she caused another.. and how she let down not only me but many others.

She isn't respecting her own personal boundaries.

The men on the betrayed men thread all want a wife who has personal boundaries. Who doesn’t? They place blame exactly at the feet that have poor boundaries. I don’t disagree.

I can only control myself. I can assume and expect my W to have boundaries. She has proven to be a person that does not good boundaries. Has she changed? I will not know until she proves it on a day to day bases, consistent and continuously. That is who she must become. I cannot get in her head.

She can be having two types of thoughts and or feelings.

She can be having feelings of attractions because Mike has some very attractive behaviors himself.. or.. innocent feelings that she does not want to see another suffer and hurt.

What are they? It does not matter to me.

What I can control is not allowing her behaviors to effect my own happiness. I am not going to bury my head in the sand when I know how A start, innocent or not.

I can do nothing and assume she is just very concerned about another person’s hurt. That is exactly the way I handled her LTA. They just get closer and closer as nature takes them down this path. I would like RSEB to share her story about her beginnings. It is my bet she had no intention to enter an affair. How they first met, just what did they talk about? Her physical and mental attractions. The flirts, who started them, was the first physical planned, how long it took before those feelings of attraction started.. how long before the touch.. then kiss.. then.. sex.. it just happened, etc.. Could your H have conflicted you to a point to wake you up? Stop you from finally make that choice? Only if you choose to share RSEB.

I can bring on conflict to my W because I now see it as a “slippery slope”. My W may have good boundaries these days. She is sharing Mike's stories with me. She does not like the way her boss is treating him. How she feels bad for him. She did the same at the very beginning with her OM. But then it went silent. No way I am going to be a man who just accept bad behavior for any reason, innocent or not. I am not going to regret something I know I should do.

I can conflict fairly or harshly.

In a way, I can make her feel guilty about her A with this subject. If she is innocent, how should I say something and still be attractive? How can I say something that will wake her up?

What would you tell my wife 7years? Others are welcome to add..

[This message edited by trynhard at 10:18 AM, March 27th (Wednesday)]


Posts: 2636 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
trynhard
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Default  Posted: 10:06 AM, March 27th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

ReunitePangea

2x4 me away.. I will never take it personally. I got that from book a while back I think. It is exactly what happened to me. Once the A begins, You are not treated the same as before. This is described by many people here on SI and in my therapy too. . I accepted not being treated the same as before. I thought it to be just part of the marriage cycle.

In your case, your wife might not have treated you any differently because she was always that person to begin with. You have a unique situation IMO.

Oh heck Nell.. I am not worried. No need to be sorry for me. I really don’t need a woman in my life to make me happy. The process might sting a bit but only for a short time. As much money as she spends, I will make up what I lose in the deal in a few short years. See, there are postive in everything. Like H&C’s W, my wife’s life style would be forced to change dramatically. Mine wouldn’t. I don’t know her boundaries, she is her own person.. I know only mine. She can cross my boundaries if she wants a conflict. I'm a far different person with my W then back then.

My 21 year old DD crossed my boundary a few weeks ago. So I consulted my W about what I was about to do. W agrees. I lay the wood to my little princess. She goes crying to mommy. Mommy, unable to take her little girls pain, tells my princess she won’t let daddy enforce those consequences. So now I two problems.. DD and mommy! I told mommy that she can do whatever she wants, I was not going to enable my princess. A week later.. guess what? My princess conforms. Who earned respect?

[This message edited by trynhard at 10:11 AM, March 27th (Wednesday)]


Posts: 2636 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
ImNellNow
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Member # 28753
Default  Posted: 10:16 AM, March 27th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

The thing that really sucks, tryn is that there is NOTHING you can do to "wake her up." My boundaries today are ironclad. Someone of the opposite sex comes to me with a Boohoo story about their bad marriage or mean boss or whatever, and they'll get a recommendation for a marriage counselor or a lawyer or the name of the HR person. I don't have ex-boyfriends as FB friends. Some man gives me a "look" and he gets a frown in return.

Those are MY boundaries and there's nothing anyone else can do to make me want to enforce them.

I'm reminded of ats's story of his FWW flirting with men until one would flirt back, and then it would be on like Donkey Kong. Boundaries.

Or Daffy pushing the limits of respect and propriety to see if the COW would ever say "no." Boundaries.

You can only have your own boundaries in place and honor them. You can try to explain boundaries to someone else, or ask what their boundaries are, but even then you're really only reacting to their boundaries with your own. (What is acceptable to me.)

Again, I'm so sorry to hear about your situation. It makes my guts twist. ETA: Even if you don't accept my sad. We cross-posted!

[This message edited by ImNellNow at 10:19 AM, March 27th (Wednesday)]


BS & D
Drinking wine and thinking bliss is on the other side of this.

Posts: 2370 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Baby steps on my new path
7yrsflushed
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Default  Posted: 10:20 AM, March 27th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

What would you tell my wife 7years?

Do the discussions with Mike truly bother you? If they do bother you have you told her that or just given her the light pressure without specifically saying the discussions bother you. If she doesn't know they bother you then it's like you are trying to "jedi mind trick" her into walking away from the situation on her own instead of just saying, "Hey, this is a potential bad situation please step away from it because it bothers me."

You have given her light pressure on this issue in the past. If I was in this situation I would consider it time to be a little harder. You know your W better than me and maybe our definitions of conflict fairly or harshly differ and you are further along in R where my mind isn't necessarily in that mode anymore. So maybe I am missing something but I would tell her the following.

I would tell her that because of our history the discussions with Mike about his personal life bother me. I would like for her to stop these discussions and if Mike needs a sympathetic ear he can call human resources, a IC, his own wife/GF, or his Boss.

Then it's up to her to stop the discussions. Yeah you run the risk of her still having the discussion and not telling you but if she "gets it" then she should be completely honest with you and transparent.

It's like you are the master of zen and it works but I just hope you don't over zen it when a simple, "Hey W, I don't like you talking with Mike because it bothers me" would take care of it once and for all.

If I am wrong I am wrong but again just my thoughts.


D-day 5/24/11
BH = Me
STBXWW = Her
2 children
The first true sense of calm I felt in YEARS was when I filed for D...
Separated 6/2013, D official around 6/2014

Posts: 1585 | Registered: May 2011
trynhard
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Member # 22698
Default  Posted: 10:33 AM, March 27th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

tryn is that there is NOTHING you can do to "wake her up."

I am not so sure you are correct there Nell. Maybe your H could not see through those heavy PJ's but some folks might.

I know if I would have stuck to my guns way back then.. I might not be married today, but I would not have be a victim to any LTA either. The pressure I would have given her would have eventually driven her away from me… NO way has she keeps me around. Her choice would have been needed to be made.. The family or your need for romance... or we both change in some way. It would have come to a head.


[This message edited by trynhard at 10:34 AM, March 27th (Wednesday)]


Posts: 2636 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
trynhard
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Member # 22698
Default  Posted: 10:50 AM, March 27th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

7yrsflushed

Good question..

Do the discussions with Mike truly bother you?

No, not really. A 2 of 10.. but mostly from the standpoint I know what this stuff leads too.. I am in no fear no matter what would happen. Something very positive about me today is my own self esteem is at it’s highest. She cannot damage it today. It would be her loss, not mine.

“Hey, this is a potential bad situation please step away from it because it bothers me."
"Hey W, I don't like you talking with Mike because it bothers me"

I am not at her work… Yes, I think something like that might close her down. It will then only go underground and she won’t say a word about Mike then. But NO way I ever just accept things in the open again.

I’m goanna give this some thought.

I can lead her mind too..

“honey, you seem to be getting very close to Mike. He will find his way. All you can do is recommend another firm. That’s all. I try very hard not to involve myself in those woman at my work. I don’t share our life or feelings because I respect you.”

[This message edited by trynhard at 10:56 AM, March 27th (Wednesday)]


Posts: 2636 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
njgal480
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Member # 24938
Default  Posted: 4:27 PM, March 27th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Tryin-

I believe in honesty and I would use the honest approach suggested by 7yrs.

If my FWH was coming home with stories about a damsel in distress at work I would immediately point out the slippery slope to him and tell him that these discussions make me feel 'unsafe' and stressed out and that if he wants me to feel 'safe' and peaceful about our marriage then he needs to maintain clear boundaries with female co-workers.

IMHO all the rules changed after d-day.

I now have new expectations for my FWH due to his actions.

I have zero tolerance for porn. None. Zippo.

I do not want to feel like I am second best.

There are also no more guys night out.
He did that for years and it only brought me grief...

No Facebook for him at all.

He doesn't need any 'new' friends and he doesn't need to rekindle any old friendships.

Been there ...done that...

He ended up in a 5 yr f-buddy, friends with benefits LTA.

He had his turn to do things his way and look where it got us.
Now that he desperately wants to stay married etc. then it's my turn to make the rules!


And...about those affair partners caught in the act at the hotel.

It's amazing isn't it?

After d-day I feel like I got a PHD in Infidelity.

I actually did read more books and articles on the topic than I read for my Master's degree!

And... the other thing that I now have is radar that detects infidelity.

I never would have noticed those lunch time side by side cars in the park...now I do.

Same thing with the hotel parking lots.

I also got triggered really bad a few times after d-day by those type of scenes...

One was in NYC...my FWH and I were going to a fabulous concert... to see Sting!

We were looking for a parking spot and a few blocks away from the venue we saw a car with its motor running and lights on...and a couple inside.... we realized that the middle aged couple inside was making out...kissing hugging , etc.

We kept waiting for them to leave and then finally realized that they were not leaving at all!

My FWH ended up finding another parking spot but I immediately knew that this middle aged couple was involved in an extra marital affair.

A 'normal' dating couple would wait until they got home.
A married couple certainly would also.

It ruined my evening....

Same thing another day in a Costco parking lot...way at the edge of the lot two cars pull up and a man and woman get out hug and then get into one of the cars.......

I purposely drove by them a few times and then parked my car right next to them!
Ha! Ha!

yes... I can spot them a mile away now.....


Me- BS
Him- WH
Long term marriage
D-day- Jan. 2007
5 yr. LTA
Reconciled.


Posts: 3139 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: NJ
hopeandchange
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Member # 33287
Default  Posted: 8:37 PM, March 27th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'm not saying that you should have NO requirements of him.....

Nell.. thanks for sharing this post. I may have felt anxiety when WW was away but never did anything to check up on her. It would have just consumed me and if she was going to have another A then she would have. She kept her A secret for over two years and I only discovered it by accident. It is not hard to keep an A secret which is why I am amazed that so many get caught.

What I can control is not allowing her behaviors to effect my own happiness.

Tryin.. I think I know what you are saying: that you will not allow your W's behavior to destroy the happiness that you have in other parts of your life. I get that.

But, my W does have the capacity to brign me great joy and that is not happening now.

We had a nice weekend preparing for our seder and W saw her IC on Tuesday and everthing flipped over. Seemed like a conscious effort to set up a wall between us.

Today, W sent me a text "I will always love you no matter what happens with our marriage". A phrase many on SI have heard their WS tell them.

I am afraid it is time to walk away from the M. I asked for her thoughts this evening and she replied that we can talk when we retire for the night.


On a separate topic, I frequently listen to a podcast by Stever Robbins, the get it done guy, and a recent episode discussed ways of overcoming our personal beliefs that limit our ability to experience life fully. Another site was referenced that Robbins characterized as the most powerful method for overcoming our limiting beliefs and I have posted the link below.
http://www.thework.com/index.php
I am going to check it out and if I find it useful will report back.

h&c


BH (me, 50)
WS (her, 48)
Divorced!
3 wonderful teens
Heading for Happiness

Posts: 401 | Registered: Sep 2011
trynhard
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Member # 22698
Default  Posted: 6:22 AM, March 28th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks NJgal.. Your good strong boundaries protect you, I'm like them. My therapist says how you say things is "that important". I ok with taking baby steps.

I like 7yrs post because he ask.. How do you feel?
I feel safe. I know that sound crazy but maybe because the reality is that should she take me down this path, I have a belief, a value.. Hey, you want that? She can go get whatever she needs. I am not sure I will hurt this time. In a way, I just don’t care. I have just somehow convinced my self to do all within my power to be attractive. She don’t like it, then leave.

Mike was mentioned again last night. “they are treating him wrong”. I agree. The two partners in her firm are not good business men. They need to cut cost and blaming Mike for something they cannot man up about themselves. The two partners egos are such they are placing blame on Mike when they have nobody to blame but themselves. They take took too much from the company when they shouldn’t have been. The gravy train ended a couple years ago and these men have such high luxury living expenses, they failed to act on income no longer coming in yet still behaved like the gravy was still flowing. I can see the theft coming.. from my family.

A vent coming… So last night, One of her co-workers calls her at home last night. Her company is not going to make payroll this coming Friday. W said her boss, a partner, avoided her all day. These two partners go to Florida for a month, cruises, Alaska fishing trips, Vegas, own condo, million dollar homes.. yet cannot make payroll. It reminds me of a cheater. These guys are lying to themselves. They cannot make payroll, but yesterday one of them brings in a new lamp for his office. One of them was bragging about looking at a new $2 million home. Total denial. The partners have not paid bills in 2 months, no big cases in the pipeline that will bail them out. it is a mess. I’ve dealt with men like these.. They are about to F their creditors. I know I shouldn’t, but I judge these men in my mind and they both are weak men by making some horrible poor business decisions.

They hired a new marketing person for a law office think this person is going to somehow make miracles happen. I have sold things my whole life, they are in a dream world if they think some 26 year old is going to come in and make things happen. So I imagine that Mike is going to lose his job very soon. My W also believes another woman who does the books will lose her job too. Who knows, maybe even my W. But my W ran the books and paralegal for her OM so she has the capacity to do both. But I know my W well enough to know she cannot say NO to people. The stress of people demanding money will eat her up. Maybe I am wrong.


My therapist says never try to “fix” her problems unless I am invited. so I just listened. She says if they close the office, she will let Obama pay her unemployment. Go visit her mom and dad for a few weeks. Says Obama can now pay us back for awhile. See what our society has now become? Great attitude huh. She said she has no problem going to 4 days. Made a comment, WE can live off me and she doesn’t have to work.. I couldn’t help myself. I said maybe she should consider going on the offense. She gave me all these conditions and she doubts any law Firm can meet them.

Me, “then you need to step it up around this house.” she got a pissy at that comment. I didn’t say a word but the fact will be we won’t need that maid, she can take the garbage out, do ALL the laundry, cook, run errand, etc.. and not bitch about it. Her life becomes easier, then mine should too.

I then looked at my sweet princess and asked her how is her job search coming? She has been trained to be completely spoiled and yes, I lay the blame on me, I have enabled my DD since birth. I told my DD that she does realize her mom works and that pays for her apartment, her tuition, her cloths, her food and entertainment. She has a gift no college debt and thinks that since she has my last name it is her right.

W then tells me, “why are you so mean?” I almost lost it.. but my therapist training came to my rescue. I felt the feelings coming.. the phone ringing in my head.. I said.. Honey, I am going to take a hot tube. This conflict is going to be a fair one this time. Not my rage and anger. I feel pretty good about how things went down. She later came and rubbed my back. That was her way of telling me, I love you. The love of touch.

You folks may think I am wrong. I am going to choose to love right now. Losing a job is one of those things in life that are about as stressful as it comes. I had it happen to me in the 1990’s. It can bring great pain. No, I am not going pressure my wife about her boundaries with Mike. The reality is I have faith she knows new boundaries. If not, I can do nothing. As Iwant says.. let them have the rope to hang themselves. I have the same value. I have given her some warning. She can pay attention to it or not. She might be right on the border not yet taken it to the next feeling level. I don't know yet. If she meets Mike for lunch, drinks.. Advances it in some way like that, her shit storm will come. I am not going to do anything to shut her down from talking to me like the old me. This time it is methodical. My feelings are such that I just don’t care. I make the choice to love my W so her feelings are safe right now because of her job situation. We are very fortunate that this will not affect our lives like many in today’s society. She may do some things sometime to piss me off. I will let it go and work through it everyday. She can enjoy my world and all I do… or not.

H&C

Today, W sent me a text "I will always love you no matter what happens with our marriage".

My Parents have now been D for 22 years. My Mom last year told me that she will always love my dad too. I didn't say a word. Having some feelings for someone is not love. No, my mom quit loving my Dad years ago. Oh yeh.. she is the one who committed infidelity on my Dad too.

H&C.. Without a doubt, I have the courage to send my W packing. You should too is what I have been saying all along. If someone is not loving you, you let them go.

[This message edited by trynhard at 6:41 AM, March 28th (Thursday)]


Posts: 2636 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
ReunitePangea
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Member # 37529
Default  Posted: 10:43 AM, March 28th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Tryn - Dealing with a stressful job situation that you described can certainly be difficult. You are right to be sensitive but still get your point across.

She gave me all these conditions and she doubts any law Firm can meet them

That does sound like an excuse rather than a reason to me. Is this the same place your wife worked at during her A?

I am not as skilled in your method of approach as you are but here is a thought. Maybe turn it in more of a positive message rather than a negative one like the one you used "then you need to step it up around this house".

How about offering to help her brush up her resume. Maybe indicating that whether she needs to look for new employment or not it is always good to keep your resume up to date just in case. Brushing up a resume doesn't mean you have to go look for a new job necessarily but are simply ready to do so if needed. If appropriate you can always be supportive by saying that I am sure there are many other law firms that very much would welcome your skills that you could bring to them.

In your past posts, I always got the sence that your wife's job is something that she has always taken strong pride in so I can see where telling her to step it up at home likely would have a negative reaction. Given the difficult work circumstances, helping her to refocus her attention on herself rather than worrying about "Mike" may help that issue as well.


BS - Me 38
WS - Wife 39
D-Day - Oct 12
Married 10 years
OM1 - 12-year LTA
OM2 - 9 month A turned into open relationship with couple for another 1 1/2 years

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