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User Topic: Long Term Affairs - Part 31
trynhard
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Member # 22698
Default  Posted: 12:53 PM, March 28th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks RP.. I needed a boost of a positive attitude. Got a bit rattled.

Posts: 2636 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
hopeandchange
♂ Member
Member # 33287
Default  Posted: 5:04 PM, March 28th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Without a doubt, I have the courage to send my W packing. You should too is what I have been saying all along. If someone is not loving you, you let them go.

Tryin.. yes, that is what I must do. My W knows that I lover her and am willing to work with her to build a great M. W is not interested: W tells me this and her actions tell me this.

Last night W tells me it was a mistake for her to share her that she has mixed feelings as this prevents us proceeding to D which is the right thing for her and me. I corrected her that she can speak for what is right for her and I will speak for what is best for me.

W tells me that she put on her wedding ring last week because I gave her an ultamatum (I will stay and work on the M as long as you want but cannot do so if you do not wear your wedding ring). And putting it on did not mean anything to her.

My summary. W tells me we are done. Takes off wedding ring. W tells me she has mixed feelings. I tell W that I will continue to work on the M only if she puts the ring back on. And W is intimidated?

W is working very very hard to avoid good feelings towards me so as Tryin and others have stated, it is time to give her what she says she wants.

W tells me that the kids need her so we will still have the issue of raising our kids. And this is a BIG issue.

On a negative note, I told my W that she checked out of the M four years ago (when she began her A) and that if she chooses to check back in before we D then I will be there.

Heading out on a one day trip with W, DD, and DS. W told me that she wants this to be a good trip, no anger, no irritation. I asked if she was angry, irritated. No, and no. Then I told her it should not be a problem because I an neither angry or irritated.

Tryin.. on an aside, we also have issues with our DD in college (choosing major, worthwhile summer employment). W told me that I have always protected DD. Yes, I have protected my W and our kids though my W was laying blame on me for being soft on her.. Yeah, almost everything is my fault these days.

I hope all have a great, great weekend.

h&c


BH (me, 50)
WS (her, 48)
Divorced!
3 wonderful teens
Heading for Happiness

Posts: 401 | Registered: Sep 2011
ReunitePangea
♂ Member
Member # 37529
Default  Posted: 7:45 AM, March 29th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

H&C - I hope you and your family have a good trip.

I have seen many different opinions on wedding rings on SI. At least you W is clearly telling you where she stands in the M by whether she will wear it or not.

As for myself, I haven't wore my wedding ring since I found out. I'm not sure if I will ever put it on again. To me that ring represents only broken promises now. It bothers my WW a little but thats fine with me. I don't need a ring to tell people that I am married for me to honor my promises.


BS - Me 38
WS - Wife 39
D-Day - Oct 12
Married 10 years
OM1 - 12-year LTA
OM2 - 9 month A turned into open relationship with couple for another 1 1/2 years

Posts: 405 | Registered: Nov 2012
trynhard
♂ Member
Member # 22698
Default  Posted: 9:57 AM, March 29th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

H&C..
Tryin.. on an aside, we also have issues with our DD in college (choosing major, worthwhile summer employment). W told me that I have always protected DD. Yes, I have protected my W and our kids though my W was laying blame on me for being soft on her.. Yeah, almost everything is my fault these days.

Fault is an interesting thing… to mention it stirs emotions…

When I avoiding blaming myself, I am blaming my W or others. Seems inevitable I always blame myself. or perhaps I do it in combination.

Too me, it is most important to understand blame and work through it no matter how painful, angered, shameful, embarrassed.. and all those feelings.

Understand it.

Yes, there are gender differences.

As I look at my own kids. As I raised my children to now DD 21 and DS 23, I know I raised my DS differently. My DS and I talked far more often and my W talked far more with my DD. I spent more time with my DS and my W spent more time with my DD.

I demanded far more from my son throughout his life, those things from him as a man should be. He always worked, my language was more direct, stronger, and expectations far greater. Along the way, he made mistakes and I did not make it easy on him. He always took it with grace and delivered. It is amazing the success he has already had.. A leader at Purdue in college.. he works so hard at his first job in a very high tech industry. I have always done that in business too. My DS has more than what I had growing up. He also has some good values from my W. The consequence of how we raised him seems to be leading him down the path of success.

I demanded far less from my women. They were more on a pedestal. In a way exactly what that means.. My two women’s feelings were more important than my own. I understand the fact my behaviors never earned respect from my women. Both did not respect my love I gave them.. mostly the love of gifts. I just accepted never anything in return. So when I do now, they accuse me as being “mean.”

Since working with my therapist a year now. As a quality woman both Nell and NJgal are.. they are telling me to demand respect from my women for the values I hold for myself. Exactly the message he also gives.. I thank you both for reinforcement.

Last night, my wife can read me well. She asked me why I was angry recently. She said, I think we should go to counseling. I asked her, what is it that you fear where we need the safety of a counselor? She said, to deal with your anger. I responded with, am angry with myself because I don’t like parts of myself, the man I should have been to both you and DD.

I am not sure what was attractive about what I said. Perhaps she misunderstood what I meant but she then seduced me. I let her.

Ole the message I give you today... I did not have the courage to reject my W yesterday and feel into the trap of seduction. My chance to get respect again failed. That is my own anger.. at myself. That power of sex and the power women have over men.

BTW.. My W did not get paid today nor did her “powerful” lawyer partners have the courage to tell her they are missing payroll.

I get you both RP and H&C.. been there done that.. my art once years ago.. Do I wear it?

I never wore that old ring again.. It is melted down into a new ring I gave her.. she bought me a new one. She keeps her ring.

The new ring I had made is in the shape of a cris cross meaning she has crossed back to me. It was laced with small diamonds, each diamond representing her years she was living her life in fideltiy. Although now I need to remove on stone since I discovered her A was one more year than I was lead to believe.. I am not sure she knows the meaning of the ring but it means something to me. She wears it all the time when we go out. I am not sure it's a trigger or not for me... a reminder yes but I see it and it makes me feel good. I told her I want my DD to have it should I die. It looks like this but out of gold.

Such is life… today is a new day.

[This message edited by trynhard at 10:27 AM, March 29th (Friday)]


Posts: 2636 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
njgal480
♀ Member
Member # 24938
Default  Posted: 10:26 AM, March 29th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Tryin-

Your W says you have been angry lately.

In your opinion...what is the underlying cause for your anger?

Could it be the continued contact with this male co-worker?

Could it be that you are trying so hard to not deal with this concern directly and that is causing you internal strife?
Why not be honest with her and say...yes..I have been distressed, unsettled ..maybe even angry lately....
and this is why...

Why continue to protect her from the truth?
In the end it does come out. And sometimes in less than perfect ways.


H&C- It will be interesting to see how your WW reacts when the D is final.
Right now she feels like she is totally in control.
She has you and takes you completely for granted.
She imagines that her life as a single will be better, happier, more exciting.
Who knows? maybe she's harboring thoughts of getting back together with the OM.
I say let her go and 'find herself'.
She may decide that this is the life she wants.
But, she may find out that the grass is not greener.

One thing for certain is that you are a quality man and do not deserve any of this.

But, life is like that.

Bad things do happen to good people.

Try doing the 180. Do not engage in anymore discussions with her.
She is still 'in the fog' where the WS tries to villify the BS to justify their actions.

She is looking for things to not like about you and the marriage at this point.

So sorry that you have to deal with this.

I used to be someone that tried to do the right thing and continue relationships with toxic family members even though they would hurt my feelings etc.
I do not do that anymore.
I do not engage with toxic people. I distance myself from them.
I surround myself with positive people and those that love and support me.


Me- BS
Him- WH
Long term marriage
D-day- Jan. 2007
5 yr. LTA
Reconciled.


Posts: 3139 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: NJ
MC_Jack
♂ Member
Member # 35016
Default  Posted: 11:03 AM, March 29th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hey everyone:

I have had a busy week, haven't had a lot of time to keep up with the tribe.

I do apologize for sucking all the oxygen out of this thread last week in case that deterred people from posting. I really appreciate everyone's help and concern!!!

I did put the contacting the other BS issue to bed with the following email to my WW:

Dear Wafflegirl,
Like you said to me last year about the affair, that it wasn't about me, that it was about you, well, my calling other BW was not about you, it was about me. It was about treating someone else like I would want to be treated. It was about my conscience knowing what I knew and always feeling that keeping a secret was wrong. It was the right thing to do as she had a right to know. It was a gift to her and I know in my heart that she will one day, if not now, be grateful that I had the courage to do what perhaps others did not. Never in my conversations with her did she express any frustration or anger with me telling her. Mainly a vague sense of gratitude. I told you last year on more than one occasion that I was going to tell her at some point, though at the time I had no immediate plans to do so. I had established in my mind a boundary: that if MOM left you, me, and our marriage alone by respecting your unequivocal no contact request, then I felt no need to act.
Your 'friend' made the choice to cross this boundary, not me. This boundary was one of protection for me, you, and our marriage: that contact from someone with no respect for my family and marriage was not going to be left unanswered. My calling other BW was not about you. The unsolicited phone call (and stop lying to yourself about that call) cleared my head about right and wrong and gave me the anger necessary to let courage overcome my fears. The ramifications of that call are fairly typical I would say. You factored those into your own choices. When someone sleeps around with a person other than their spouse, one can easily predict that unkind things will be said. As I said in my previous email, you need to focus on what is good for the marriage and your husband. There is nothing more that needs to be done with other BW and her family. They are heading for happiness. They are of no concern to us and our kids.
I am reminded again of the first healing quote that struck me in May of 2012:
"Those events and people in our lives who trigger our unresolved issues could be regarded as good news. We don't have to go hunting for anything. We don't need to try to create situations in which we reach our limit. They occur all by themselves..." (from Pema Chodron, When Things Fall Apart).
Your reactions to notifying other BW of your and her husband's cruel, selfish, and heartless behavior and the events that followed are illuminating and welcome. They reveal, along with trying to blame me for your negative feelings, that rather than owning your shit so to speak, that you still have some type of unhealthy emotional attachment to the fantasy, some particular version of the story of the affair, and/or MOM that is not good for our marriage and our family. Maybe you do not want to feel like you were so badly used. Your reactions also reveal that you care about what MOM thinks. Why does his opinion matter? What is there to be upset about? You still have your family: isn't that what is most important? This area of focus is probably the last remaining thing preventing us from really moving forward.

with love,

Jack

My WW's response was to note that I was right in what I said. We did not talk about it much, a little at MC, but I note that her behavior has changed for the better.

Tryn, you are right about where I am at now - it really is a position of uncertainty. I have been looking to find linkages to narratives in books, other peoples' situations, etc. to try to create certainty and thus give me an illusory feeling of control.

Nomorethankyou - thanks so much for your 'epic' post. There was so much in there that every time I go back to it I see something more to reflect on. For example, there is something to this from you that applies to me:

So why did he fall down the rabbit hole and not me?

The answer was too easy actually -- because he could. He wanted to be a big player and have at his side some shining bright star to reflect all that he valued (and my urging him to exercise came back to bite me -- that became their focus, she runs marathons, the cult of self was on) I was more of an emotional liability, a drag. What he wanted
trumped everything. He deserved to be recognized for all of his accomplishments. And though he accused me of being needy, it was actually he and his girlfriend who were the neediest and well that they found each other felt pretty great.

The whys were so transparent and ultimately, I realized with my head and now with my heart, that the whys do not matter. That was your take away point :) ...

My story and and stuff about the A is scattered about here at SI. But for my WW, the MOM was a mentor and "shining star" who gave her a helping hand (and dick) when she was a first year resident, and at the start of and duration of the A with the use of the robot. She idolized him, and his 'approval' connected to her need for accomplishment recognition. But like you say, it really does not matter now. My IC appointment was really good yesterday. My IC said that I have seemed to cross into realizing that now and what I want for the future is what matters. So my thinking is centered around really looking at what I have today. Honestly looking. I need to work on figuring out what I want for the future.

H&C: Do what you have to do. We are all behind you.

It seems to me that your WW (maybe my take is different from njgal's) is under the belief that the feelings she had in the fantasy are attainable somewhere in real life if she just goes and looks hard enough. It's an immature view. I do not get the sense that she is vilifying you, but merely that she has decided that you are not able to be a source of the emotional crack she seeks. And that she 'deserves' to have that in her life. But then again I have the amateur view here...

[This message edited by MC_Jack at 11:04 AM, March 29th (Friday)]


I am not a marriage counselor. I chose "MC Jack" in the spirit of a handle like "MC Hammer" or Young MC"...there is a lot of 'rapping' here, no? At the time I did not know what MC stood for on this site. Duh.

Posts: 792 | Registered: Mar 2012 | From: West Coast of Hopa-hopa-land
trynhard
♂ Member
Member # 22698
Default  Posted: 11:10 AM, March 29th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

NJgal..
Tryin-
Your W says you have been angry lately.

In your opinion...what is the underlying cause for your anger?

Could it be the continued contact with this male co-worker?

Could it be that you are trying so hard to not deal with this concern directly and that is causing you internal strife?
Why not be honest with her and say...yes..I have been distressed, unsettled ..maybe even angry lately....
and this is why...

Why continue to protect her from the truth?
In the end it does come out. And sometimes in less than perfect ways.


I think you read me well...

Posts: 2636 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
trynhard
♂ Member
Member # 22698
Default  Posted: 11:18 AM, March 29th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Powerful letter MC..

Posts: 2636 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
njgal480
♀ Member
Member # 24938
Default  Posted: 11:56 AM, March 29th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

MCJack-

Your letter to your W was awesome.

So glad that your W agreed with what you said.

Hopefully, all that has happened in the last few weeks will help both families get closure once and for all and move forward.



Me- BS
Him- WH
Long term marriage
D-day- Jan. 2007
5 yr. LTA
Reconciled.


Posts: 3139 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: NJ
trynhard
♂ Member
Member # 22698
Default  Posted: 7:09 AM, March 30th (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Therapist says when people get married and place too much faith in societies “I do” that you set yourself up for affairs. Protecting boundaries are that important. Most people like me were comforted in commitment and ignored the odds. Yes, that is what married people are supposed to do but not reality. The social acceptance is too powerful today with all the sex on TV shows, porn, the rampant non concern of cheating by so many, lack of values of personal responsibility going on today.

People just don’t get that co-worker attractions are that powerful. By the time a spouse gets to going out for drinks, less sex, less love, and those signals of a loss in intimacy, it is too late. They can wake up with conflict, but most don’t.

When a woman is in the frame of mind that is not conducive to a happy, affectionate marriage, that is when we must raise her awareness to how she is representing things in her mind.

How we say things are that important…

Most men will say things to shut down a woman. Examples.. “You should not be talking to that man..” “I am hurt by you doing this…” “I hate what your are doing..” “Go F him if you want…”

First..
Take her frame mind and apply it to myself as if I was the one doing it to her.

Second
Make a point that she would not appreciate if I did that to her, I am not happy and you would not be happy either. This does not make our marriage stronger.

third..
Invite her to represent in her mind, the good in the marriage, for both of us.


So this is what I will say when Mike is brought up again.

“Honey, If any women and I talked at work about her feelings about losing a job, being mistreated by our company, that is pretty close. You would not like my closeness to these women and the same goes for me about Mike. Let’s both focus on us, our problem with your work and let us BOTH have thoughts that make us feel good within ourselves and towards each other.”

Then just listen and reset the moment. No deep discussions.

He says.. Manager her mind. He considered that kind of approach is very open, non-threatening and will make her aware of a boundary she should have.

If she continues down the path of very closeness with any man.. I will need to ramp up the pressure.

Not easy to change who I was.. I have worked hard at it for the past year, filling every need.. only a couple conflicts.. a few mistakes.. but it has been most rewarding. Sex life is far better, happiness improving, self esteem back.. Know what it means to be attractive, be attractive and conflict fairly.

I am not sure if RSEB is still around.. but I wonder if I would have said something more like this back when I failed to protect my boundary, would this have made you think? Be aware? My wife said.. “It just happened..” I wonder if RSEB’s A “just happened” in the same context? If you don’t want to share, I understand. I was much like her man... The quality time was toward improving our family quality of life..like making money.. not much romancing my W... not really paying attention.. things I said were not so nice or caring. But things are far different today.

MC.. I would be prepared for your W to respond to that letter. Keep it positive and mutual toward the good of the M are my thoughts. Be prepared. That letter was most manly.. and tough.. people have this need to defend themselves. Don’t get rattled like me recently. As NJgal so wisely pointed out about me not even aware.. It comes out one way or another.

Gotta.. Good luck on your trip. I hope you man has given up on his “addiction”.. and totally focused now on winning you back.

[This message edited by trynhard at 7:24 AM, March 30th (Saturday)]


Posts: 2636 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
njgal480
♀ Member
Member # 24938
Default  Posted: 9:32 AM, March 30th (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Tryin-
I agree that lack of boundaries is what causes many affairs.
It's a slippery slope.

And it often happens with co-workers that go out together after work for happy hour, drink together,start down that slippery slope, then there are those that travel for work, and spend evenings with co-workers drinking etc.

They are away from their every day reality and having 'fun'.

That is how my FWH's MOW/co-worker described the LTA to another co-worker.

She was remorseless and clueless.

She did not care about the destruction she had participated in.

It is a whole different mind set for some people.

Here I was devastated, rolled up in a fetal position on the floor, destroyed by the revelation of the LTA.

And meanwhile,in her discussion with another co-worker 2 months after d-day when the co-worker (who knew me and my FWH well) told her that I said that the MOW had destroyed my marriage.

The MOW replied....'that maybe she could have done better but she thought they were just having fun.'

Fun... that's how she described it.

Not love.

Not that this was the greatest love of her life.
And she had to act on it even though it caused pain and destruction etc.

Nope.

She said she thought they were just having fun.

I think I've told the story before...that this particular MOW had another LTA years ago with another married co-worker and his marriage had been destroyed.

Her husband had found out about it years later and brushed most all of it under the rug.
He did not want to find out the paternity of his young children.

He did not make any demands on her to go to MC or IC or even to change jobs or to stop the travel (which she could have stopped).

So, she lived her life with two compartments. Her family and this 'fun' work life.

When my husband's office moved to her office building in 2000 she began a campaign to get to know all of the 'fun' new guys and she became part of the drinking buddies.
And then she began to pursue my FWH.

It took one year for her to wear him down with all kinds of innuendos and come-ons.

(Her emails to him were outrageous).

Anyway... it was the perfect storm ...where our home life was in strife. Our teenage daughter was dealing with a very serious health issue.

I was frantic and stressed and focused on helping her as well as our college bound son.

My FWH started drinking more than ever-that was one way he escaped the reality of every day life and then this MOW provided another outlet.

In one of her emails she described in graphic detail their sexual encounters on work trips and how she liked to do all of these things and forget about everything else.

Both she and my FWH were in a very dark, very toxic place during those LTA years.

My FWH is ashamed and horrified about his behavior.

She doesn't understand what the big deal was......

But..here I am rambling on.
I'm sorry that I went off on this tangent.

I got to thinking about boundaries and how easy it is for co-workers to cross those boundaries and how vigilant they need to be.

My FWH is extremely remorseful about his infidelity.

And I am 99.9% certain that he would never cheat again.
He saw the destruction that it caused.

But, I will not hesitate to point out any time he crosses a boundary simply because it makes me feel uncomfortable.

For example- he now attends AA.
A few years ago he got a phone call in the evening and I heard him explaining how to hook up a flat screen TV (he's good with computers, technology, etc.).

He got off the phone and told me that it was a woman from AA that just bought a TV and she mentioned it after the meeting and he was giving her tips.

Since they have each other's phone #'s to call for support she called him to ask some more questions about the TV installation.

I raised my eyebrows but said nothing.
Later she called again and I could tell that she was angling for him to offer to stop by her place to help her with this.

That was when I pointed out that I was NOT comfortable with the direction this was going. That he did not have to save any damsels in distress and couldn't he see what she was angling for?

He did not take any phone calls from her again and made it clear that he would not be able to help her.


Me- BS
Him- WH
Long term marriage
D-day- Jan. 2007
5 yr. LTA
Reconciled.


Posts: 3139 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: NJ
hopeandchange
♂ Member
Member # 33287
Default  Posted: 10:59 AM, March 30th (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

H&C: Do what you have to do. We are all behind you.

Mc_ thank you and the tribe! The support and advice has been immensely helpful and has improved my life in so many ways.


It seems to me that your WW (maybe my take is different from njgal's) is under the belief that the feelings she had in the fantasy are attainable somewhere in real life if she just goes and looks hard enough. It's an immature view.

I agree on both counts. The rush of a new relationship, the rush of pushing sexual boundaries, the rush of a secretive life: those cannot be duplicated and sustained in real life. And yes,my W has most likely set that as her minimum bar for emotional fulfillment. And yes, it is an immature view of life.


I do not get the sense that she is vilifying you, but merely that she has decided that you are not able to be a source of the emotional crack she seeks. And that she 'deserves' to have that in her life.

Yes, my W most likely views the emotional crack that she got from the A as the norm and a birth right. However, I do believe that my W is blaiming me for everything substandard in her life to "justify" the D. It is not the A, the A was just a sysmtom of all that is wrong in our M. Lack of social activities with other couples, issues with our kids, problems with our home maintenance, etc. These are all due to me! And it goes on with our post D discussion. The kids need her! I am not capable of taking care of them.

But then again I have the amateur view here...

MC_Jack.. yeah, we are all amateurs. No one gave us a book on infidelity; no one took a class on infidelity. And yet, each of us knows far more about infidelity and dealing with the fall out than any counselor or article. We have experienced infidelity and we deal with it daily. IMHO, the vast majority of counselors just don't get it.~


So, to my one day family college visit. It went well for W and I. Enjoyable and pleasant. DD has anger issues - anything outside of her narrow view of what should happen irritates her. I gave a focused effort to help her and DS keep these peaks of iritation to the minimum (though I do not think my W either noticed or appreciated my efforts).

When we got home, I told my W that when I saw the study abroad posters, I saw the intersteing places to visit and find it sad that I will not share that with her. W replied that she could understand my feelings about that.

Then, I proceeded to engage her in a discussion of her expectations post D.

W says that the lawyer will take care of everything as there are established practices of what is fair and normal.

W expects me to provide much much more to support our kids as I make more than twice what she does (working part time).

W expects me to provide spousal support as I have been working full time during the M and she has been the family care giver.

W does not want to use the savings we have accumulated to pay for our kids college and thinks we should split the savings and I should pay for the kids college education as I make so much more than her.

My principle is that I should not provide financial support to an ex-W that does not need to stay home and care for young children. My kids are in college and high school. It is nice to be home when they arrive home from school but it is not needed. Many family's do this today.

W asks if I am concerned that I will not have enough mone to live on. No, I am not concerned about that but want what I earn to be available to me for how I choose to live. Trips, entertainment, dating, etc. My efforts, my benefits.

So fundamentally, W and I have major issues to work through?
- ongoing relationship with our kids
- financial support for our kids
- financial support for ex W

So, this morning W gives a hug and kiss before taking son to baseball. I would welcome a friendly relationship with W but with the above issues I feel mainpulated.

h&c


BH (me, 50)
WS (her, 48)
Divorced!
3 wonderful teens
Heading for Happiness

Posts: 401 | Registered: Sep 2011
MC_Jack
♂ Member
Member # 35016
Default  Posted: 1:51 PM, March 30th (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

H&C,

I don't remember what you've said, but did you retain a lawyer?

As you are probably aware, most settlements will occur based on what your WW would make if working full time.

She is manipulating you. She is turning you into her daddy. I know that based on your profession you are used to dealing with contracts and negotiation. This is an area that you need to get the help of a lawyer. You are emotionally compromised.

Also, what if you meet someone else? How are you going to support a new family of sorts in addition to the needs of your 48 year old "daughter" ?

Did you ever see the movie "The Hunger" with David Bowie and Catherine De Neuve?

Bottom line: you have a full life to live ahead of you without an unfair boat anchor to carry. Plus you have a gift, your eyesight: If I were to lose or leave my M I would be burdened by my shallow comparisons to my W.

Have a good weekend---

Jack

[This message edited by MC_Jack at 1:57 PM, March 30th (Saturday)]


I am not a marriage counselor. I chose "MC Jack" in the spirit of a handle like "MC Hammer" or Young MC"...there is a lot of 'rapping' here, no? At the time I did not know what MC stood for on this site. Duh.

Posts: 792 | Registered: Mar 2012 | From: West Coast of Hopa-hopa-land
njgal480
♀ Member
Member # 24938
Default  Posted: 2:14 PM, March 30th (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

H&C-
Your W can want many things but in most states divorce is pretty cut and dry.

The law states what is an equitable distribution of funds and what is fair in terms of child custody etc.

And for your wife's information most judges do not look kindly upon the spouse that commits adultery-it can influence their decision in terms of child custody/support etc.

And also-this is 2013-the expectation is that every able bodied spouse can work full time.
So, don't stress out about what she is saying about the divorce.

Once you file it is out of her control.

You need to find a good divorce lawyer and be 100% honest with him.
Do not protect your W.
Tell him about the LTA. And let the lawyer advise you.


Me- BS
Him- WH
Long term marriage
D-day- Jan. 2007
5 yr. LTA
Reconciled.


Posts: 3139 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: NJ
RSEB
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Member # 34728
Default  Posted: 7:46 PM, March 30th (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I am not sure if RSEB is still around.. but I wonder if I would have said something more like this back when I failed to protect my boundary, would this have made you think? Be aware?
My wife said.. “It just happened..” I wonder if RSEB’s A “just happened” in the same context? If you don’t want to share, I understand.

Tryin I am still around, have been reading everyday and have been trying to find enough time to respond to your questions thoroughly. I have a little time now, not as much as I would like, but I SO want to help you and if my rambling helps in the least bit, I will have BEGUN to repay you for ALL your kindness to me and my M.

I know you asked a few posts back, which I don’t have time to look for right now about how my LTA started. It is SO many years ago, started January of 2004, and I have learned so much about myself and my HORRIBLE boundaries at the time, that it is hard to try and put myself in the mind frame I was in at the time. I do know a few things. And this is not to blame my BH at all, this is completely about ME and MY views at the time.
When my LTA started, the MOM had been M’d almost 6 months. We had dated and been intimate at that time around 11 years earlier. Since that time we had been “just friends”. Was I aware of how he felt for me? Yes. I ignored it, thinking since I didn’t have the same feelings for him that it “didn’t matter”. Throughout those 11 years the MOM did things to make me know how he felt about me. He sent me flowers one Valentine’s Day when BH (then my BF) didn’t send me anything and I was very upset about it. I never told my BH because to me it was only a kind gesture from MOM and again, there was “no danger”. MOM verbally told me throughout the years that “I was different” that “I was the one”, even after I set him up with one of my coworkers. We all went out to a bar together, I went to leave the bar to go home, he walked me outside when he tried to kiss me. I told him that “she” was in the bar and that I was engaged. The coworker I set him up with is who he wound up marrying. I can’t even remember all the examples of when I felt “it” from him, but to say I wasn’t aware of his feelings would be a lie. So when he got M’d and I was FEELING completely closed off from my BH I remember thinking one day, did I let MOM get away? But then I still knew I had no sexual feelings for him, so I knew it was just a “protective/possessive” reflex action of sorts.
So the day he called me in January 2004 we were talking. Talking as friends do, about his honeymoon trip (nothing sexually inappropriate) about the house they had bought (which I had advised him on in other phone calls) and basic stuff. I don’t remember how it came up, but he literally said “will you be my guma?” (Italian for mistress). It was in a joke context. I told him that is ridiculous because he was never a cheater, from what I knew. And as an aside three weeks ago I found out that 20 years ago he slept with his BEST friend’s girlfriend. This is his best friend from childhood. His friend STILL doesn’t know. A friend of mine ALSO was just in a hospital in the area where he works and overheard a conversation with two of MOM’s coworkers saying “(MOM name) cheats on his W left and right”. So I have learned in these past three weeks that he is a COMPLETE liar and has had NO MORALS as long as I have known him, and from the sounds of it, he is still at it, and his detective friends know all about his actions.
So back to that night, I was meeting up with my GF for coffee, he said he would call me, I didn’t believe him. Sure enough he did call that night. I couldn’t believe it and in my gut I felt “obligated” to go outside to meet him. Looking back, that was a part of a need for his validation. I didn’t want confrontation in me having to explain me “standing him up”. When I went outside he kissed me. I felt different then I did when we dated, and I felt safe with him. Would a kiss from a stranger have felt the same? I don’t know, but that emotional connection was there with MOM. That is why I responded to him. We kissed for a bit. I was completely unhinged. I went back home and couldn’t believe what happened. Looking back now, in my situation, from that minute forward my BH didn’t have a chance in hell, no matter what he would have said at that time. I thought I had a good, solid trusting friendship with MOM and now the kiss was exciting. The perfect storm for an A.
If I rewind, and I would have confronted my BH every time he hurt me verbally instead of avoiding it, would I have avoided my A? I would think so. But if I would have been strong enough to do that, I also would have been strong enough to end the M when I felt I had to.
My LTA did not progress much physically after that. We did text here and there for months, but then his W got pregnant and then a month after that so did I. Emotionally however it progressed and I had somewhere to turn when I felt hurt by my BH.
“IF” my BH would have spoken differently, in a “nicer” way, trying to set MY correct boundaries BEFORE that day, in my gut, I don’t know if I would have cheated. In reality, I had HORRIBLE boundaries. If another man would have come along and been my “friend” I am sure it could have come to be, but in my situation as a SAHM I really wouldn’t have been in a position to form a “feel safe” friendship with anther man, and I don’t have much experience in dating and I am quite shy about those things.
Tryin, In your WW’s case NOW, in the present with her conversations with Mike, I can’t comprehend how she is having them. Is she that strong and aware of her boundaries that she is having these “more than coworker” conversations without a second thought? I cannot speak for all FWS’s, just myself, but she is not behaving as a reformed FWS. You know your WW better than anyone. You have said that she is a “fixer” and very caring. You yourself have said that she and I are very much alike. And I would have to agree with you, all the way down to the fact that she has a Bachelor’s in psychology, as do I. However I have found myself WISHING every day that my BH would somehow inherit the “Tryin” way of forgiveness, so for me to picture myself in your FWW’s shoes, I can’t imagine having the gift you have given her and not reciprocating. I don’t overstep any boundaries with men and friendships in any way, and my BH has not acted in a forgiving proactive way as you have. I will not compromise myself and betray MYSELF. I will never again fall back to where I was. I work every day on my conflict avoidance, especially in my M. This sometimes is a fight in itself because when I “confront” an issue with my BH over a way he spoke to me, or an action I didn’t like, he feels as if I am just trying to “assert myself”. He says, “you were never like this before”, to which I say, yes that is exactly right, and that was part of MY problem.
I don’t feel at this stage in the game that it matters how you tackle the Mike problem with your FWW. It is NOT about YOU, it is STILL about HER. SHE is falling backwards, not YOU. But please be clear with her in your feelings. She, being at this point in your R should know better. This should not even be an issue, and I am SO sorry that it is.


ME - FWS


Posts: 259 | Registered: Feb 2012
m334455
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Member # 26893
Default  Posted: 1:31 AM, March 31st (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

K people, time out.

E-mail and texting is crap communication. So is talking on the phone, but I'll bump that up a level.

I get that SOME communication is better than NO communication, but do yourselves the favor of learning how to deal directly with your spouse.

Dday M3 was very much a text/phone/e-mail communicator. It's really another form of conflict avoidance.

Here's your general rule to aim for:

Texting:
Can you pick up some milk?
A link to a webpage you saw.
A picture from wherever you are.
A quick flirty statement...

E-mail:
This should be for information it's just too hard to explain over the phone or that needs to be in writing.
Travel plan confirmations
A big article you liked
To discuss something you want to buy for your kids

Phone:
For fun, but not super-serious conversations.
OR to let your spouse know you need to carve out some time to do some task soon etc.

Now, the middle ground: My new favorite is video phone (FaceTime, skype, etc.) Interestingly, the baby will "talk" to Mr.M3 on the video phone as well. This is great because you get a little visual feedback.

But, face to face is best. There is a LOT of body language and facial expressions, etc in a conversation.

OK. Like I said, any communication is better than none, but as a longer term goal, get to a place where it's no big deal to do this stuff face to face.

Everyone have a blessed Easter.


BW 38, 5 kids
Dday Dec. 2009

Posts: 4034 | Registered: Dec 2009
trynhard
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Member # 22698
Default  Posted: 5:40 AM, March 31st (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

m3... face to face.. No doubt about that big conflicts should be done face to face. Good point.

Thanks RESB…

I think you made some very critical points that confirms what my therapist says..

A man must be quality and live his life attractive.
- you feel safe.. you feel attracted to your man and won’t fall for a snake charmer. It would not surprise me to also know that once you had feelings for your OM.. you vilified your H even more.. gave him less intimacy which then the law of reciprocity kicks in by him returning the favor. It’s like a downward spiral.

A man brings on conflict to all bad behaviors.
- he sees the text, the closeness. Flowers.. your going out without him.. He confronts you and conflicts with you..

My old relationship was no different than your same situation in many ways.

I don’t hurt my W these days. We are far more open. We spend far more quality time together. I must clarify; my wife is giving me much reciprocity. She is most generous, affirms me, touches me.. All that... Honestly, she is going to be shocked when I confront her on this. I think she is going to be reminded of things already discussed about her own boundaries. I think she has boundaries issues but no feelings for Mike. She is just concerned for someone’s well being. Despite.. She is going to hear it… It will go very well.

My therapist says that woman like my W must have girlfriends. A need of a woman is discuss feelings where most men just don’t. He says this is why woman must have girlfriends to share this talk.. if not.. or they have a man friend, it becomes a husband problem. My W might be naturally drawing Mike in without even realize it… lol.. Then one day, Mike’s need for sex is going to pop out.. wham.. “GUMA”. W then feel fantastic.. all those nails that get painted, hair.. Attracted another man.. Complete affirmation! Feels pretty good. (You read what I just said ReunitePangea? I don’t make this stuff up.. I pay for it… lol)

I forgot my ring when I went out of town 2 weeks ago. My luggage got lost and was in the baggage area with a gal who was filling out my claim.. we got to chit chatting.. she hit on me. Imagine that? a 51 year old slightly over weight man getting hit on by a 40 something year old woman. Usually, I am totally obvious to that stuff.. Felt pretty good.

My therapist says if you are not being completely attractive when this stuff happens. Guess what happens?

RESB.. I think if you keep correcting your own H's bad behavoirs... he will stop. Same goes for my W's "caring" for those men in her office. I am happy her boss is a good man with strong boundaries.. She was texting him at a colts game once... I told her, "what the hell are you doing.. You can do all that stuff again, but Not with me watching it.." Her girlfriend called me a baby.. I told her gf, "I don't give a shit what you think".. lol.. Her boss never text her back. He does not discuss personal stuff with my W despite how she tries to fish it out... She cannot figure out why? I once told her because he is private. Like me with the women in my office.

anyways.. Happy Easter.

[This message edited by trynhard at 5:50 AM, March 31st (Sunday)]


Posts: 2636 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
7yrsflushed
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Member # 32258
Default  Posted: 8:26 AM, March 31st (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

HandC

You and your W already know you disagree on how things should go monetarily in D. Since you disagree you should stop talking to her about it and talk to a lawyer asap. NJgal is right, D is different than most people think. I assumed I was going to get screwed but didn't, because I listened to the lawyer. Spousal support isn't gauranteed and you can look at child support calculators for your state on line to get an estimate of what you may have to pay. Let your lawyer guide you in any decisions. Put your feelings aside, give the lawyer the complete story and follow their advice.


I would welcome a friendly relationship with W but with the above issues I feel manipulated.
She is manipulating you because you keep going back to her asking her how she feels about things and having discussions. You already know the answers she will give you. 180 and detach. She is going to continue to manipulate you or at least attempt it for as long as she can. She says she wants to divorce, has discussion about how she expects things to go, then gives you a few crumbs afterwards. Once she realizes things aren't going to go her way and you aren't going to be "Daddy Warbucks" her attitude will likely change drastically and you won't be prepared because you haven't detached. The reality of what a D really means hasn't set in with your WW yet because she assumes that as always she will get her way. When she doesn't get her way or sees you actually intend to fight her on this, she is going to throw a "tantrum" and yes it will be your fault in her mind. But you know this going in so don't sweat it and take care of yourself.


D-day 5/24/11
BH = Me
STBXWW = Her
2 children
The first true sense of calm I felt in YEARS was when I filed for D...
Separated 6/2013, D official around 6/2014

Posts: 1570 | Registered: May 2011
trynhard
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Member # 22698
Default  Posted: 6:15 AM, April 1st (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

hopeandchange

Once you know your rights, then you can form a plan. A plan will bring you peace. I strongly recommend you go visit a lawyer now too.

I have a book called Surviving Infidelity Making Decision recovering from the pain. I pulled the following.. Divorce is a process too and there are stages.

1) Denial or minimizing. Feelings of disbelief. I think you are through this stage.

2) Acute Stage. Fear, anger, attempts to bargain back. Numb.. Low self esteem..

3) Integration stage. This will be you being a new you. Redefining the way you live, emotional acceptance. Bereavement.

I hope you are moving into stage 3.

We all take a huge hit on our self esteem. Things we know about you are far more positive then things you think about yourself. I respect your ability to speak in front of group. This is a gift and talent not many people have. You have lived your life in fidelity. Depending on the stats you see, you are only 4 of 10 men who have this ability. This is very attractive for any man who can be this man. I know you are a great father. Should you so choose, there will be women who are very caring, very giving, very loving and intimate with you and waiting for you to come into their life right now. Your kids will respect you greatly because one day. When you are back at peace, they will ask you details about how you gave your W every opportunity to make the choice to stay in the M.

Also clipped this from it.. This may be early but you can be a man who begins to live how to discuss this with the kids right now.

And Nell D’d in Texas.. I know she can give you info about the law.

We had a wonderful Easter and hope all did too. Nothing about Mike. A fellow man in my group therapy suggested the following should my wife bring up Mike again. He has been in my same situation and he feels exactly the same as me.. And M3, I will do this face to face..

"I love that you are a kind, compassionate, and caring friend. But your close friendship with Mike concerns me. I would hope that you can understand why?"

W thinks her boss took his own private funds to make payroll today. The chit chat around the office but her boss is too afraid to communicate the company cash flow problems directly to my W.

[This message edited by trynhard at 6:16 AM, April 1st (Monday)]


Posts: 2636 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
ReunitePangea
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Member # 37529
Default  Posted: 9:09 AM, April 1st (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

You have lived your life in fidelity. Depending on the stats you see, you are only 4 of 10 men who have this ability.

For the sake of society - I hope those stats are worst case.


BS - Me 38
WS - Wife 39
D-Day - Oct 12
Married 10 years
OM1 - 12-year LTA
OM2 - 9 month A turned into open relationship with couple for another 1 1/2 years

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