ats.. woo hoo!!!
Laura.. I am sorry about your DS. I am sad that your WH LTA still causes pain three years later and wishing that it fades quickly
Nell.. fantastic! Thanks for sharing. This forum needs positive experiences of all kinds.
MC_Jack.. sound like a book recommendation. Thanks.
Be safe! Be Happly! Be Healthy! Live with ease!
Hey all.. Accept nothing but peace in your hearts. Life is too short. Peace.
All my thoughts and prayers are with everyone in the tribe.
solely because of your health issues...you need to put all your attention there, not stress yourself more then necessary, while i understand that living in limbo SUCKS a moose egg, its better then engaging with someone who is NOT going to STEP UP...and right now he is incapable of stepping up....
once you have your health issues somewhat resolved and know what you are dealing with physically then you can address your marriage....until then i say step back and 180 his ass......
doing the 180 also has other benefits...it gives you time to decide what you want to do and gives him time to either step up or eventually step out...although i dont think your ws will step out until you tell him to do so.....he is a cake eater......in his world i am sure he sorry he got caught because he wants it all....
so, 180, address your health issues and line up those proverbial ducks until you are ready to pull the trigger
and as nell has said, there is life after this...we have another member who also had to kick her ws to the curb, strong....and she is now engaged to a wonderful man and happy....
so there is life after this.....and i look forward to my day as well...i am not in this for a long haul....i always have my goal in sight, and there is a goal and there is somewhat of a timeline.....so i know, really KNOW that there is an end to living the way i choose to live right now....and i chose this life as a mom, but i am also a woman who has needs and i have put them on hold, because being a mom came first FOR ME....and that is my choice again...FOR ME....its not for everyone because living like this is SOOOO hard!!! doable, but hard.....and i look forward to the end goal
side note: i realized some time ago that i have spent most of my life waiting for some kind of goal so that i could finally get to that place of happy.....i was never completely happy in my life, pfm was never a good husband, ever....and ironically, after i found him out, he became everything i wanted with ONE HUGE EXCEPTION....he was still a liar and i will no longer settle in my life....
laura: hi hon, it really is good to see you... , love the cat pic
laura.....settling has its price doesn't it....my question to you is why???? with exception to your ds medical issues, why?...would your ws step up anyways, do you really need to be together as husband and wife to step up together as parents....
a couple of months ago i posted a story about my friends dd, she was hit by a car, her parents are divorced, he left her for ow...(ow and him did not work out)..he is currently married to someone else and the mom is engaged to someone else.....mom was in mexico with a friend and could not get a flight, dad drove straight to boston where the accident happened, 5 hours from here, and never left his dd's side until her mom arrived...the mom took a flight from mexico straigt to boston where her fiance picked her up, the fiance and wife of the dad drove to boston together (5 hours) to pick her up and bring her straight to the hospital so she could be with her dd...
and that story continued...after they got dd home here in Long Island the fiance of the moms dad passed away....well, the fiance is jewish, so they sat shive at the mom's house because she could not and would not leave her dd alone more then she already had to, because she was only home 2 days and still had doctors to see as well....and the dad and his wife and his mom came to the funeral and to the house for shiva every nite......and the dad stepped up for the fiance who just lost his dad...i
it really is an amazing dynamic...and the mom gets alot of credit for the relationships....and the dad stepped up to do right when needed and never hesitated when the mom or his kids needed him....
i pray my ws will follow suit, but i seriously doubt it.....money and this house is way more important to him then doing right after all his wrongs, or even just doing right because its the right thing to do!!!
anyways laura......you do not have to settle...no one should ever settle for less, we all deserve to be happy...so find your happy place and persue it.....there are always multiple options for happy places....its more of a question of choosing the path that will bring you to one of them....and i get the sense that him being faithful and not persuing his issues is not enough for you
and as for him going to ic....i don't think its because he thinks it above him, it may be fear.....i hope its fear and not the money....i always got the sense from you for him that he always needs to be distracted by something or other, afraid to not have full plate so to speak....which i think can be some kind of avoidance....because its prob how he copes with what he perceives...
coping mechanisms for everyone can be as different as night and day, and then if they are rooted in fears they can be consuming...
ats: wow, daylight...good for you!!
(((ukgirl)))) still in our thoughts...
ok...memory done and i gots lots to do before i go to work
I thought I would get your thoughts on something I posted in the men's thread a few days ago. I have almost finished No More Mr. Nice Guy. Very poignant. A lot resonates. A LOT. Bottom line for me is the *fear* that I was conditioned to have and have always had.
In the other thread I wrote:
There have been a lot of good things from my R....but I have the same ambivalence/anxiety or whatever you want to call it that you have. It has to do with the WW 'fixing herself'. Is she doing enough? Is it fast enough? Is she really fixing herself? How do I tell? Am I focused on her issues and her fixing herself to avoid looking at my own problems? Is she fixing herself but I can't see it because I am more comfortable with a narrative that she is the one with all the problems? When will I know that she has finished her work of self-discovery? All the uncertainty and anxiety ==> I am just afraid. I am also afraid that maybe I will not want her after all in the 'end'.
any musings appreciated...
I liked parts of that book too.
It has to do with the WW 'fixing herself'. Is she doing enough? Is it fast enough? Is she really fixing herself? How do I tell?
Early on I initially applied prescriptive requirements and expectations to FWW’s post A behavior and “recovery”. You could also think of these as boundaries. To stay in the M with her I required transparency, NC, go to IC 2x a month, read this book, write out a timeline, tell me you love me, tell me OM was awful person who used you, spend more time together, touch at least 4x a week, do this, do that… Eventually, I arrived at performance based requirements. I know what I want out of being M, and I have communicated these things to FWW. I do not care how she achieves these things, so long as the end result is there. The upshot is that she was not fast enough and did not fix enough things, so in October we were planning to S and D in January. Then she lost her job, and life is on hold.
Am I focused on her issues and her fixing herself to avoid looking at my own problems? Is she fixing herself but I can't see it because I am more comfortable with a narrative that she is the one with all the problems?
I cannot answer this for you; in my case I had done a lot of work on me prior to dday. FWW had told me in 2007 that I was “broken” and she metaphorically kept a bag packed ready to leave the M. I did IC for 9 months (FWW refused to attend any sessions when invited), worked out, kicked it up a notch at work, got into volunteering, planned events and gifts for W and accommodated her requests for $ and time to travel. This is how I know you can not “nice” a WS back into the M, at least not mine. From 5/2007 – 10/2009 she was with her last OM, and she had been with another OM for over a year in 2007.
Are you happy with whom you are? Does life work for you? Do people (WW excluded) like you? Do you abuse alcohol, drugs, sex, or food? If you answer yes to the first 3 and no to the last I would say that you are in pretty good shape and that she is the one with the problem.
When will I know that she has finished her work of self-discovery?
Never, it is a journey not a goal. We all are on a journey. In addition, for any personality disorders or traits there is not cure, only learning coping mechanisms. FWW has learned to alter her behavior, to question her perceptions, but her bpd traits are still there. In times of stress she will still revert back. Underneath all of that the hole that led her to OM for fulfillment is still there. I do not believe it will ever go away, but with time working on healthier behaviors and perceptions I believe it gets buried deeper and deeper, less likely to return.
I am also afraid that maybe I will not want her after all in the 'end'.
I no longer feel lucky or fortunate to be M to FWW. I do not think that I will ever look to FWW as someone to take care of me or support me. As I noted, I was ready to S & D, but with kids in college, house uw, and her unemployed it would be a financial bloodbath. But these things will change. Housing prices will rise (I am one of the few looking forward to hyper-inflation for a couple of years), kids will finish school, FWW will get a job or be eligible for SS in a few years.
[This message edited by atsenaotie at 1:48 PM, May 30th (Thursday)]
Like in the book, in spite of all the education I have and an OK career (good by any real measure, I just have zero interest in it), I am held hostage by fear and the thinking that life is not plentiful but instead dominated by scarcity. I need to heal that shit. It was her issue set not mine. The A makes it all the more difficult of course. But it did act as a painful catalyst.
Also, to add, that book is not really original material, just a smart/clever compilation. It does say over and over: broken people attract broken people; and, heal yourself and your relationship, not your partner (that's their job).
So what the f*ck do I want and who is my core self? (borrowed from ICR/BM thread).
[This message edited by MC_Jack at 4:15 PM, May 30th (Thursday)]
(borrowed from ICR/BM thread).
UKGirl, so sorry for the loss of your mother. (((UKGirl)))
eta: wanted to add my concern for Deep Purple. Please check in!
[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 7:08 AM, May 31st (Friday)]
"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson
fixing her issues....yes she has issues....will you be willing to settle for her NOT fixing them
your issues: hell we all have issues....we all have emotional baggage brought upon us by our parents, circumstances and life....do you want to fix them....well do you want to grow, to learn and evolve or stay stuck...
fears: we all have them, the question becomes ..is the fear ruling my life, if yes then you need to conquer it, so that you rule your life and your fear is but a part of you....eg...i am afraid of flying....really afraid....but i do not let it stop me from flying when i go anywhere....i am afraid of trains....go on them when i have to, and boats.....go on them when the opportunity arrises....
damn, i have transportation issues...its a wonder i am not a hermit... anyways i digress
point is...we all have fears... the choice then becomes....do you let them dictate how you live your life, or live your life in spite of them.....doesn't mean the fears will go away, just that you will not let them rule you choices....
nothing good usually comes from fears, or fear based choices.....there are exceptions...like you have a fear that you will not have enough money to do something so you save more then usual.....thats doing something proactive to not just conquer the fear but allay it alltogether....
most of our ws's got where they are because of fear based choices...i usually think about that and others who live their lives ruled by their fears and its usually enough for me to bite the bullit and embrace my fears and do what i need to do in spite of them....
not sure if i am explaining myself right....i see it in my head...just not sure if my words match
and about not being sure about wanting her in the end....well, i wouldn't worry about that , cross that bridge when you come to it...you may find that you do or even well before you make that journey halfway that you don't...so the question would be and should be...will i regret not trying to keep my marriage and family intact a couple of years from now....
honest: its amazing to me how much i see you in "heart"...the 2 of you have ws's that are unwilling to give up their op's or you both....i think heart's ws is somewhat not as unreasonable...i think he at least sees that what he is doing is wrong, where your ws see nothing wrong with his behavior or his choices....
bottom line for both of you...its no way to live..period....
ok...forgot everything else if there is anything else....
... I know you can not “nice” a WS back into the M
Ats: You posted this to me back when WH was having his operation, and I have always remembered it. You are absolutely right.
I think the main key is that if both the WS and the BS are working on themselves and are also trying to work on the M together, there is a chance.
I loved your whole post, Ats.
From the very first trip I took with my WW in 1992, to my trip to PR in 2011, when told of the plans, my mother would say to me, "must be nice," and then go on some sob story about her situation
OMG, do we have the same mother?? LOL, I often don't show Mom anything new I've bought like a blouse, shoes or a pocketbook, because I get some kind of comment like " I wish I could wear that or I don't get out to go shopping, I can't wear nice shoes anymore..." blah blah blah.
Jack, I've been ruled by fear for since DDay. As Miracle advises, we have to face it, but I think first we have to define it.
My IC has been telling me it's like peeling the layers of an onion. I know somewhere deep inside I'll find exactly what that fear is, and I'll have to face it. I don't know if it's fear of abandonment or what...
Miracle: No, it is no way to live. I am not living, I'm not even surviving. I guess I'm existing.
I know I'm mourning.
It's 4 years past DDay, and I have been floundering, but I have to live my life.
Love to the tribe
What miracle said. You cannot be concerned with the what-ifs of your future-marriage. You need to focus on you. 180, my friend!
And I'm adding my voice to those who are thinking of dp and hoping all is well.
Hugs all around! - Nell
I got a call on Tue 14th to say Mum had gone into hospital. She had been to the doctor the day before with chronic back pain (which we later realised was kidney related) and got prescribed codeine. The next day she did all her usual things, got her painting stuff together and went down to the surgery again to collect a prescription and to mention she really wasn’t feeling well. Her blood pressure was sky high and the doctor called an ambulance. The local people were brilliant – as always. Her “lady who does” ran back to the house and packed a bag. After waiting to find out just what was going on, I left it to the next day to go down as it is a 6hr drive. She was a little confused when I got there, but she recognised me well enough – it’s just she kept asking where my Dad was! It turned out she had a strep infection on her heart valves – she’d had one replaced some years ago. So the family crisis management system swung into place and we passed the baton on to make sure someone was there with her, staying at her house. We ALL live bloody miles away. I’m the first port of call!
So, my sister arrived on the Saturday and my twin on the Sunday, so I could go home. And take my trip to Italy on the Tuesday. Except I didn’t. I couldn’t go. My sister and brother went on Monday, my older brother took over on Tues 21st – Mum’s birthday. DS1&2 sent a lovely bouquet of highly scented flowers. Brother read all her cards to her. She recognised he was there. He got a call at 3am Wed and went in. Her breathing was shallow, but she was peaceful. The nurses did the vitals before a morning wash, they brushed her hair, tidied the bed, told my brother he could go back in. He took her hand, her eyes flickered and she just stopped breathing.
She said she didn’t want to be put on a ventilator and after trying the mask, she said no to that too. She made her own choices for her care. And no resus. So it was quite peaceful. I think she was ready. Her faith was that she would be with her Bill and God in a place of happiness.
The hospital had to cut her rings off – her wedding band and my Dad’s signet ring. I’ve had them linked and soldered together to be buried between the cremation caskets. A lasting bond never broken. Their stone reads “always and forever”.
I shall be off for a week and I don’t like to log in from my IL’s. I will check in on facebook, but that’s all. There’s the funeral and I have to sort the assets for the estate for the solicitor and inland revenue (groan) while we are all down there.
Thank you for all your support, hugs and kind wishes. I’ll be back soon.
Hugs to the Tribe.
[This message edited by UKgirl at 1:19 PM, May 31st (Friday)]
My thoughts and prayers are with you and your family.
Be safe! Be Happy! Be Healthy! Live with ease.
WS are nuerotic to be shared on a later post.
I am so sorry to hear of your Mom's passing. It sounds a lot like how my Mom passed. Thanks for sharing with us.
Thanks for the responses and suggestions.
Per your comment:
performance based requirements. I know what I want out of being M, and I have communicated these things to FWW
If you answer yes to the first 3
Yes most people like me, but I have to answer 'no' to the first two questions. That is why that book hit home; I think I will look in the book's bibliography to find sources for digging deeper. So, might I be 'unhappy' with where my WW is going and the work she is doing because on some level I still am looking for her to fill some void that I have?
Thanks for the talk about fears. When you asked:
well do you want to grow, to learn and evolve or stay stuck
Honest, I think my fear has something to do with abandonment. It is a pretty strong fear. I am working on the onion to be sure. My twin brother died when I was little, then my (ancient) father when I was 11.
about the 180...I need to figure that out. In many ways during my M, I was doing the 180...I am trying to assess my past..was it for protection then? The M did not *seem* to be that important to me then. Obviously, I really did not understand myself much. The part of the 180 I need to master is figuring out who Jack is and what Jack wants...and not have the M define me. I do need to be engaged with WW.
ATS identified the book, it is by Glover.
UKgirl, thanks for sharing.
take care all