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Divorce/Separation Post Reply     Print Topic    
User Topic: How to D a narcissist?
numbandnauseous
♀ Member
Member # 34525
Default  Posted: 2:53 PM, April 3rd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I know there are quite a few people in this forum with NPD STBXs, so I thought I would ask for advice re: how to best D an NPD. I have also posted in ICR, NPD thread. Here are some options for what I could say:

1) You (NPD) have said that you are happy with the person you are, don't feel a need to work on yourself, feel that you've been a good H, a good provider, and don't feel like you have any blame for the problems in our M (besides the A). In addition, you don't believe that sex addiction is real, don't believe that you're a sex addict and will not enter into treatment for sex addiction. For these reasons, I cannot stay in this relationship and have filed for D.

2) I have tried your way of mending our M by being kind to each other, hoping that things will get better and I am profoundly unhappy. This is not working for me and I have filed for D.

Which one would be the better way to go? Also, I want to have already filed when I have "the talk" with him, but I'm not sure if that will just inflame him more. I am also worried about him hiding money, as he has done this in the past, so this is the reason I would prefer to file and have all the finances frozen before I talk with him.


BS (me) - 41
WH - 48, EA with HS GF x 2
M: 10 years, T: 20
2 small children
DDay#1 - Christmas 2011 (OW#1)
Confronted - 4/6/12
DDay#2 - July 9, 2012 (OW#2)
He is an SA (Oct 2012)
Divorcing

Posts: 827 | Registered: Jan 2012 | From: the other side
JessicaFL127
♀ Member
Member # 26864
Default  Posted: 3:11 PM, April 3rd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Option 3. Crickets. You have to let your lawyer deal with an npd. Any contact and he will bring the crazy. Don't.


BW,32
divorced for 6 years
mom to two awesome boys,10 and 9

"But you said your vows, and you closed the door
On so many men who would have loved you more" -Cath, DCFC

"The most amazing things can come from some terrible lies"


Posts: 1244 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: Missouri
Nature_Girl
♀ Member
Member # 32554
Default  Posted: 3:22 PM, April 3rd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Go for shock & awe. Have him served the same day you & the kids are out of town and the locks on the house are already changed and you've already taken your portion of the money & put it in your own account. THAT is the only safe way to let a NPD know he's getting a divorce whether he wants one or not.

I had to reach a point (at the figurative end of my IC's foot, LOL) where I accepted that nothing I could say would explain it properly to him. He would never get it, and even if he did he wouldn't admit that he got it. He was not capable of understanding. I'd been trying & trying for years to explain things. It was time to stop explaining. You probably need to stop explaining, too.


Me = BS (Stay-at-home-mom)
Him = EX-d out (abusive troglodyte NPD SA)
3 tween-aged kids
Together 20 years
D-Day: Memorial Weekend 2011
2013 - I DIVORCED HIM, I'M FREE!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBOJpIwF47Y

Posts: 9232 | Registered: Jun 2011 | From: USA
ChoosingHope
♀ Member
Member # 33606
Default  Posted: 3:49 PM, April 3rd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

(((Numb)))
Is he abusive in any way - emotional or physical? Does he have a bad temper? And I know you've done a lot of thinking about this, so what do you think he's capable of doing when you tell him?

I think you've read Splitting. When I first separated, I would NEVER have believed that my STBX would do every single thing in that book. So if your H is seriously NPD, you have to expect things like that.

My STBX left after I found his 2000+ pages of sexts. He would not have gone very willingly if he didn't know I had that. He would have begged and pleaded and lied and told me that he would go into treatment. I don't think he would have left our home willingly. Eventually, if I had stood my ground, I think he would have made a huge scene in front of the kids, and things would have gotten ugly.

So I think you might want to set everything up beforehand, no matter how you tell him. I would probably have him served after work (not AT work if he works for a big place). I would either let the lawyer handle it, or if necessary I would ask the lawyer how to tell him - what words to use.

(((HUGS)))

ps: you might want to confide in a few more friends as the time gets closer. You'll want the support.


Posts: 1562 | Registered: Oct 2011
numbandnauseous
♀ Member
Member # 34525
Default  Posted: 5:52 PM, April 3rd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks, Ladies.

So, let me elaborate on your suggestions:

Jessica - I tell him I am D'ing him and don't answer any of his questions - refer him to my L for any other info, correct?

NG - I'm wondering if your way would piss him off and he would then be out for my blood. When I told my L that I wanted SAWH served at work, he advised against it because it would rile SAWH up. Do you think that my SA/NPD WH is going to refuse to let me D him? He hasn't done that in the past. I do get that I don't really need to explain anything more to him.

Choosing - he's emotionally abusive and hit me once 15 years ago before we got M. I told him then if he ever hit me again, I would leave, and he hasn't hit me again. He did threaten to hit me when I hid all his electronics on the day that I confronted him about his A. He said, "Do I have to start hitting you?" (to get his phone, ipad, laptop back) I said, "You would do that in front of the kids?" and he scurried away. When I was calling the spouses of the co-ed group that he went to Vegas with (all married, but met with opposite sex old HS friends without telling their spouses), he told me "Every man wants to hit his wife, but they know you just don't go there."

He has a bit of a temper, but it rarely shows up.

I don't know what's he's capable of when I tell him. When I've told him that I was going to D him before, he has always backed down and given me what I was asking for (close secret bank account, go see CSAT), so I don't know how he'll react when he realizes that he can't do anything to stop me from D'ing him.

Yes, you are correct - I have read Splitting. I have no doubt that SA/NPD WH will do many things in that book. When I was calling the Vegas spouses and asking if they knew that their spouse was with friends of the opposite sex in Vegas, SA/NPD WH left our home for the night and said, "Am I ok to leave you with the kids alone tonight? You don't seem very stable." All I did was call spouses; didn't yell, scream, do anything physical, nothing. So, he has questioned my sanity out of the blue when I am doing things he doesn't like. I haven't challenged him for most of our M, so I haven't really seen how ugly he can get.

Choosing, you are lucky that you had 2000+ pages of sexts. I have nothing on my SAWH. He has gone to a CSAT and he is extremely worried about any of this getting out, so I know he would not want to go to court.

I am also wondering about how to get him out of the house; I don't know how tense it will be and if I will be worried for my safety. My plan was to give him the Sandcastles D book, tell him to read it and we could come to a decision on what to tell the kids. From what I've read, it's best to tell kids my age (preschool) a couple of weeks before one of the parents moves out so that they will have a little time to process and ask questions. I then planned on asking SAWH to have his own place within a couple of weeks. I have no idea how he will react to moving out.

Re: support. I am planning on telling my neighbors before I tell SAWH. I will have a safety plan in place and will tell them that he may be violent. They are really supportive, but have no idea what is going on in our life; they think we are Ozzie and Harriet.


BS (me) - 41
WH - 48, EA with HS GF x 2
M: 10 years, T: 20
2 small children
DDay#1 - Christmas 2011 (OW#1)
Confronted - 4/6/12
DDay#2 - July 9, 2012 (OW#2)
He is an SA (Oct 2012)
Divorcing

Posts: 827 | Registered: Jan 2012 | From: the other side
JessicaFL127
♀ Member
Member # 26864
Default  Posted: 6:06 PM, April 3rd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'm not sure you should tell him anything. It will be self explanatory. Anything else would be dangerous. I see you are still trying to get through to him and he will use that to try and manipulate his way back. If you are serious, NC.


BW,32
divorced for 6 years
mom to two awesome boys,10 and 9

"But you said your vows, and you closed the door
On so many men who would have loved you more" -Cath, DCFC

"The most amazing things can come from some terrible lies"


Posts: 1244 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: Missouri
numbandnauseous
♀ Member
Member # 34525
Default  Posted: 6:33 PM, April 3rd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Jessica - you are amazing. You can tell that I am hoping that he will pull his head out of his ass once I file. I do have hope that this will happen, but I don't think it's likely. Even if he does say that he wants to get into treatment, etc., I am still going through with the D; I need to see his actions and strong remorse for 6 months to a year to see if it is real. So, I will not truly know whether we still have a chance unti I file. And if his actions are not remorseful, I will know that I have made the right choice. Looking from the outside in, do you think there is absolutely zero chance that he will be remorseful once I file? Are there certain signs where you know for sure how someone will react?


BS (me) - 41
WH - 48, EA with HS GF x 2
M: 10 years, T: 20
2 small children
DDay#1 - Christmas 2011 (OW#1)
Confronted - 4/6/12
DDay#2 - July 9, 2012 (OW#2)
He is an SA (Oct 2012)
Divorcing

Posts: 827 | Registered: Jan 2012 | From: the other side
JessicaFL127
♀ Member
Member # 26864
Default  Posted: 6:44 PM, April 3rd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I see it because I lived it and let him take advantage of me over and over in the hopes he would become remorseful. Just made it more painful. Imo if he was going to be remorseful that would have already happened. Now I am relieved that he is gone. I would still be married to a broken man. Big hugs to you, I know how it hurts.


BW,32
divorced for 6 years
mom to two awesome boys,10 and 9

"But you said your vows, and you closed the door
On so many men who would have loved you more" -Cath, DCFC

"The most amazing things can come from some terrible lies"


Posts: 1244 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: Missouri
ChoosingHope
♀ Member
Member # 33606
Default  Posted: 7:20 PM, April 3rd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Numb, I don't think a NPD can change and ever show remorse.

I agree with the NC comments here. Please try to avoid being alone with him since he's obviously violent. I'm afraid he might hit you, even in front of the children. Please take good care.

Does your attorney understand his mindset? Has he worked against people like this before?


Posts: 1562 | Registered: Oct 2011
PhoenixRisen
Member
Member # 35912
Default  Posted: 7:40 PM, April 3rd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I agree with everything Jessica said
Do NOT talk to him, do not give him the heads up. Let your lawyer contact his lawyer.
ANYTHING thing you say will be twisted, manipulated and turned on it's head to make you looks bad.
He will also steal all the money you have together (then most likely claim you took it all)
Oh and get ready for him to tell everyone YOU cheated.

Get your money set, file and move out that day (as it will no longer be physically safe). NDP are not usually prone to violence (it makes them look bad) EXCEPT at the transition point when a spouse leaves them.
Katie Holmes did the surprise shock and awe for a reason too.


Posts: 472 | Registered: Jun 2012
exhausted lady
♀ Member
Member # 30217
Default  Posted: 10:30 PM, April 3rd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

n&n....if he's NPD, the less you say to him, the better. You have a lawyer, let him talk to your lawyer. When dealing with NPD, NC is ALWAYS the best way to go.

I hate to keep bring this up, but one of our members just had a nasty, unexpected experience with her STBXH during the beginning of D. sweetmisery damned near got killed at the hands of her personality disordered monster. The member I mentioned had NO idea that her monster was coming alive. He had never been violent, and had only recently let his "mask" slip. You've at least been given a warning signal. Don't ignore it.

With NPD, you are dealing with a class B personality disorder, NOT mental illness. Class B's are highly resistant to any form of treatment....to the extent that they are considered to be untreatable. There are no drugs, IC doesn't phase them, and they can usually con their way through multiple sessions with a counselor anyway. They don't see, or wish to see, that there is anything wrong with them. The rest of the world is the problem, in their POV.

That means you can say whatever-the-hell you want, and it will only give him more ego kibbles and egg him on. Even bad attention is better than no attention at all to these vampires.

Go NC to the fullest extent that you can. It will save your sanity, and possibly your life. Read "The Gift of Fear" and learn to listen and be proactive on protecting yourself from harm.

Yeah, maybe he won't get violent. Don't bet your life on it.


Sometimes the hardest part of finally seeing through someone is accepting what you see...

God grant me the serenity to accept the people I cannot change, the courage to
change the one I can, and the wisdom to know it's me.
-Reinhold Neibuhr


Posts: 3168 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: Colorado
numbandnauseous
♀ Member
Member # 34525
Default  Posted: 11:29 PM, April 3rd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks again for all the great advice, everyone.

I have an appointment with my L soon to discuss the NPD aspect and money matters.

I have followed SweetMisery's story and have definitely taken heed.

I have also read "The Gift of Fear" - really great book about trusting your gut.

I tried to get a cc in my name today; I was denied, I assume because I am a SAHM and my income is "zero." They wouldn't let me use my SAWH's income.

I'll continue to plug along, getting my ducks in a row....


BS (me) - 41
WH - 48, EA with HS GF x 2
M: 10 years, T: 20
2 small children
DDay#1 - Christmas 2011 (OW#1)
Confronted - 4/6/12
DDay#2 - July 9, 2012 (OW#2)
He is an SA (Oct 2012)
Divorcing

Posts: 827 | Registered: Jan 2012 | From: the other side
Nature_Girl
♀ Member
Member # 32554
Default  Posted: 11:55 PM, April 3rd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I remain firm in my advice that you go for the shock & awe approach. Once you make the decision to D an NPD, you can't go back. You cannot reconcile with an NPD. You know this by now, don't you? If you went back to him he would only devalue you even more severely. Your treatment would be even worse. He would despise you even more to teach you a lesson.

A man such as what you've described is not going to react well. You should not be there.

I also agree with the comments that you need to prepare yourself for a scorched earth reaction from him as well as a campaign to smear your name & reputation. That's what this kind of person does. My STBX has done his absolute best to tell amazing lies about me to everyone who will listen. To hear him tell it he is my victim. He's nothing but a poor, innocent schmuck who was used by me and thrown out for reasons he can't imagine. Oh well. Let him talk. If that's the price I have to pay for my freedom it's well worth the cost.


Me = BS (Stay-at-home-mom)
Him = EX-d out (abusive troglodyte NPD SA)
3 tween-aged kids
Together 20 years
D-Day: Memorial Weekend 2011
2013 - I DIVORCED HIM, I'M FREE!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBOJpIwF47Y

Posts: 9232 | Registered: Jun 2011 | From: USA
npain
♀ Member
Member # 33539
Default  Posted: 11:15 AM, April 4th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I have just been lurking on this topic and the truth is I can identify with everything said here. I believe STBX is NPD as well and the only thing that has saved my sanity is NC. I speak very little to him and ignore him as much as I can. I told him that I want a divorce and since then he has been blasting me on facebook, and going all out to proclaim that I am a b*tch and the biggest mistake of his life. I ignore him like he doesnt exist. Which of course pisses him off to no end. I am gathering up my money to pay for a lawyer and will have him served, I will not let him know anything and let the surprise be on him.

The way I see it is, he cannot blame me for the sh*tstorm of his life forever. Eventually, it will be because of someone else...


S,beginning D

Posts: 508 | Registered: Oct 2011 | From: New York
Ashland13
♀ Member
Member # 38378
Default  Posted: 3:10 PM, April 4th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I totally agree with those who say option #3: Crickets.

This is exactly what I've got going on right now. My STBXH has a huge temper and it flares at the drop of a hat. If I say the sky is blue, he will find a way to change that and then make it my fault if it rains.

So even though I am not detatched from ideas and dreams of M, the continuing hurt of who he's become helps me with NC longer than I could go before.

I, like numbandnauseous, held on a super long time that he would return and when he did he faked it so bad I don't want it now from someone who could trick me so very, very badly and pull my heart strings and then throw them in the trash.

So anyway, I, too, tried to "help" Perv by telling him things I might be doing or reasons I did things, but it only backfired and made my "free time" full of drama.

I find if I don't be a doormat and give praise like he's a little boy, I get silence or sh. So now I am working very hard at NC.

I filed papers and L was searching for where to serve him and it killed me emotionally.

I think #1 could flare the temper and if he's like NPD Perv, he will find ways to make it your fault and about you.

I am sad you don't have evidence and will hope you can find it at some point. I have evidence up the wazoo I don't want, but it was as if Perv wanted to get caught. IC and L believe that and it made me sad.

And #2 is about both of you, but saying that he made you unhappy in my interpretation and that could really backfire on you too.

If you have to say something, maybe you could make it about your own unhappiness and not mention him in some way.

Or crickets, to sum up. Making it about him in any way, shape or form will blow up at you and if he is PA, he could also make a revenge list like Perv does in his head and you will have that to look forward to, which I hope not.

I hope it will go smoothly and with as little drama as possible. At least Perv is an artist, the way he can twist words and blame, like a balloon at a carnival. And the minimizing. Doesn't he know he did some fundamentally wrong things?


Ashland 13

A person is a person, no matter how small. -Dr. Suess


Posts: 2132 | Registered: Feb 2013 | From: New England
Ashland13
♀ Member
Member # 38378
Default  Posted: 3:13 PM, April 4th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

And I agree with your last sentence...Perv blames job loss on me, insomnia, heart attack that was really panick attack and so much more-all the wrong he made happen in his own life.

I suspect it will be 50 years in the future when I don't even live here and he will still be with Fatty B and blame me.


Ashland 13

A person is a person, no matter how small. -Dr. Suess


Posts: 2132 | Registered: Feb 2013 | From: New England
numbandnauseous
♀ Member
Member # 34525
Default  Posted: 12:22 PM, April 17th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thank you, Ladies, for opening my eyes (once again). I see now that this is not a Hail Mary pass, this is Game Over. There is no hope for him to change. (I probably know the answer to this question, but why do you sometimes hear BS's talk about how they would have thought their WS would be the last person on earth to R, but they were doing all the things they needed to do?) Who are those WS's? Not NPDs, I suppose.

I am seeing my L soon and will ask more specifically about his experience and strategy with NPDs.

It is getting unbearable; I don't know how much longer I can stay in this M. I still need to get a few more ducks in a row, so that is why I am holding on. I despise him and barely talk to him. He is so conflict avoidant, he doesn't notice/is happy that we are not talking about our relationship. He also doesn't seem to mind that he isn't getting any ego kibbles from me anymore. I just pretty much ignore most things he says unless it requires a direct answer from me.

I will also post on the NPD thread, but does anyone have any good book recommendations for NPD and children? I have read on SI something about the "golden child" and the "scapegoat" and I wonder if that is what is going on with my kids.

I fluctuate between anger, sadness, and fear. The fear of taking the big step to file is what is holding me back - wish I could calm my fears....


BS (me) - 41
WH - 48, EA with HS GF x 2
M: 10 years, T: 20
2 small children
DDay#1 - Christmas 2011 (OW#1)
Confronted - 4/6/12
DDay#2 - July 9, 2012 (OW#2)
He is an SA (Oct 2012)
Divorcing

Posts: 827 | Registered: Jan 2012 | From: the other side
Nature_Girl
♀ Member
Member # 32554
Default  Posted: 12:57 PM, April 17th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

(I probably know the answer to this question, but why do you sometimes hear BS's talk about how they would have thought their WS would be the last person on earth to R, but they were doing all the things they needed to do?) Who are those WS's? Not NPDs, I suppose.

I will also post on the NPD thread, but does anyone have any good book recommendations for NPD and children? I have read on SI something about the "golden child" and the "scapegoat" and I wonder if that is what is going on with my kids.

I used to despair as to why others here had remorseful spouses who wanted to R, but I didn't. In fact I had to take long breaks from SI in the beginning because the emotional pain of realizing what I was NOT getting from WH (now STBX) was too great to bear. I would even use some of the SI phrases with him in conversation in the vain hopes that something would magically click in his mind and he'd finally, finally, final-frickin'-ly get it. Never happened.

As for book recommendations, I have none. I do recommend finding an awesome counselor for your kids. Go for someone with a Ph.D if you're dealing with a personality-disordered STBX. Your kids will need highly trained & experienced support. In addition, if a PD Xspouse abuses your children, the counselor has the legal weight to do something about it. If it's just you, the "ain't nobody" BS, you just are a chicken flapping your wings against the wind. So line up your legal allies.

Get the books Divorce Poison and Splitting. Read them ASAP.


Me = BS (Stay-at-home-mom)
Him = EX-d out (abusive troglodyte NPD SA)
3 tween-aged kids
Together 20 years
D-Day: Memorial Weekend 2011
2013 - I DIVORCED HIM, I'M FREE!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBOJpIwF47Y

Posts: 9232 | Registered: Jun 2011 | From: USA
torn2bits
♀ Member
Member # 28376
Default  Posted: 9:03 PM, April 17th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

numb, I just wanted to echo a few things that have already been said.

I served my SAWH at work. It was the best way to do it. I also moved out of the house while he was at work and did not tell him.

I had to move out because I could no longer take the lies and emotional abuse in front of my kids.

This is year 3 that I have thought and waited that my WH would get it, I only see the fog lifting a little.

I think its because we are closer to the D. You see, an NPD and my SAWH don't think that you will go thru with the D.

Please be ready for violence, underhanded tricks and all the rest. Make sure you have a stash of your own money and your own bank account.

Good for you for trying to get a credit card in your name. Maybe ask a relative to join their card. My SAWH cut me off financially after he was served. All the cards, bills and accounts had him as the primary.

Luckily, I make my own money, but it was still hard supporting 3 kids with no child support for 10 months.

The courts are slow and you need to believe he will not pay a dime for anything unless its a court order.

Definitely go NC and let your lawyer speak for you. Email communication only. This is a record of all and let his calls go to voicemail.

Hugs to you in whatever you decide. Its a financial drain on those of us who have jobs, can't imagine if I didn't.


Me: 44/WH (SA): 49
M: 24 years 3 kids over 10 yrs old
EA/ PA Dec. 2009 -Divorce pending

Posts: 1240 | Registered: Apr 2010 | From: Midwest
Dawn58
♀ Member
Member # 37656
Default  Posted: 1:23 AM, April 18th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

After I confronted the WS, he asked me to leave and I did. He said that he didn't want to use any attorney's for the divorce and that he would "take care of it".

Well, I retained an attorney (put the retainer on my credit card and was later reimbursed for it), had him served at work, tried to maintain NC ( have recently changed my home and cell number and have already blocked his emails). All communication will go through the attorneys, so no more lies.

Find an attorney who will fight for you. Shield yourself as much as you can from their (WS) outbursts. Find friends you can confide in. Post here. Take it a day at a time.....


I got into the marriage, because I loved him. I got out of the marriage, because I love me.

Posts: 465 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: Southern California
Topic Posts: 22
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