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Reconciliation Post Reply     Print Topic    
User Topic: "just" an affair?
wert
♂ Member
Member # 34478
Default  Posted: 7:59 AM, April 24th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

While I tend to think that comparing tragedy is mostly worthless I do think a separation of the kinds of tragedy is important.

Child dying, cancer or illness are all fate, folly or god in cause.

With an A,a person inflicts the pain.

For me the difference is my reaction and expectation of people I love and life. I can't control my child's cancer. I can love them, provide the best care and comfort possible, but I can't stop it. My W's A? I can't change what happen, but I can clearly lay out what I expect as behavior moving forward if she wants to maintain a relationship with me.

In either case my internal cleansing or healing is mine. I need to reconcile with myself. The path is different for different kinds of healing and the development of my story and how it interweaves with life events is mine to create.

My W's A was far from the worst thing that happened in my life - with a little time between discovery and now. I can see that calling it that or assigning that much value to their pathetic attempt at connection degrades my experiences. I do choose to minimize the hurt on some level at this point. I choose that not because it did not hurt, but because it assigns to much credit to her actions.

I think that is why change is central to me in the rest of my M. My W must earn her M back. She must earn that M back through dedication not to me, but to herself. She must become a person with boundaries, with insight, with humility, with vulnerability to me and with expressions of all those things. Otherwise their is another women waiting around the corner.

My healing? I have learned from my W's A more than from the other tragedies in my life. I have learned what I need and want from others and what I expect from my life partner. For those things I am grateful.

I am also grateful for my fathers battle with cancer. I got a year and a half with him with the knowledge of his death coming. I, we, could and did, get to say the things we wanted to say to one anther.

From both I have learned a humility I would not have ever known. They are not the same, but different experiences on the same surface. Pain and hurt are great teachers if we allow them to be.

Does it not alter life as we know it permanently?

Both kinds of trauma do this. Separating them out, finding the lessons and learning from them have been and continue to be the key for me, not comparing them. Treating the hurts as the individual and important events they are.

take care...



Posts: 1428 | Registered: Jan 2012
7yrsflushed
♂ Member
Member # 32258
Default  Posted: 8:24 AM, April 24th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I think it can be worse than any other trauma. Know why? Because it was done to us on purpose.
^^^This.

Cancer, birth defects, family memeber getting hit by a train, all those things could be attributed to bad luck, fate, God, or lack of God depending on your stance...but they are all things that you have no control over and do NOT see coming.

A's on the other hand are an intentional assualt on a Spouse perpetrated by the person that is supposed to have your back through EVERYTHING. It is the biggest "F U" they can give you and they do it on purpose.

I can accept a family member dying because everyone dies, I can accept someone getting sick because it happens. There is nothing I can do to control that but a WS intentionally has an A and that WAS in their control.

I am almost 2 years out and the A's and her inability to own her shit were in fact deal breakers for me. I have always gone about life with a fairly level headed attitude. By that I mean I understand that everyone dies. My parents will not be around forever, someone will become deathly ill, I even almost died in my early 20's. I didn't live in a bubble so I "get it" bad stuff happens. There are many bad things in the world but their is a difference between randomly receiving a bad hand and someone intentionally stacking the deck against you.

Yes in order to R there has to be an understanding and a sort of moving on into the new M but IMO maybe a little more digging needs to be done if soemone's method of coping boils down to "there are worse things in life than this". I could get hit by a bus tomorrow but if my WW is driving the bus that kind of skews things a bit.

ETA: trauma is trauma and i guess the main thing is how people cope. Having a truly remorseful spouse goes a long way to how you get through this and to some extent your view on the entire thing when you reach a state of healing. For me, I learned a lot from this whole fiasco and for the most part I am healed but I had to heal on my own so my view is colored from that aspect.

[This message edited by 7yrsflushed at 8:31 AM, April 24th (Wednesday)]


D-day 5/24/11
BH = Me
2 children
The first true sense of calm I felt in YEARS was when I filed for D...
Divorced 9/2/14 and loving life!

Posts: 1910 | Registered: May 2011 | From: VA
SisterMilkshake
♀ Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 8:31 AM, April 24th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

As some have previously stated, comparing an affair with other tragedies just isn't helpful. It is comparing apples and oranges.

I have suffered tragedies in my life. I don't equate my FWH's infidelity as the greatest tragedy in my life.

However, I do feel that to some people it is the greatest tragedy they have ever suffered. Maybe they haven't lost a child, or any loved one, suffered debilitating disease, whatever. In short, they have lived a life free from tragedy, and I can imagine how shocking and tragic an affair is to them. They have never experienced any kind of pain that ever reached this level of emotional pain. It is the greatest pain and suffering they have ever had.

That being said, it is never "just" an affair. I suffered greatly (still do) from my FWH's infidelity.

[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 7:11 PM, April 24th (Wednesday)]


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9793 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
Diva0702
♀ Member
Member # 32309
Default  Posted: 8:33 AM, April 24th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

As an aside to this fascinating debate, may I just add that the significant stress levels that arise from such an enormously affective psychological trauma in the event of an A create physiological symptoms in many, and exacerbate existing conditions.


This is not to compare to life threatening illnesses but more to highlight how the human body is affected by prolonged high levels of stress.

Such a serious psychological event for so many is certainly, as all have agreed, not 'just an affair'.


Me: BW 53
Him: FWH 47
4 wonderful grown children
2 beautiful grandchildren
Married 20 years
Together 23 years
Dday March 10 2010. 4 yr A.
Me: RGN(ret), N.Dip.,BA(Psych),MA (Psych),BA Music.
OW: 55 year old taxi driver

Posts: 333 | Registered: May 2011 | From: UK
zen2011
♂ Member
Member # 38459
Default  Posted: 8:44 AM, April 24th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

This is a very thought provoking post.

As a survivor to two separate cancers over the past two years, I have to say that the trauma of infidelity is in a totally different category.

When fighting an illness such as cancer you are given a set of options with expected outcomes for each. You pick the best option and you start your battle with the intent of ending the fight above ground. That sounds pretty callous but that's how it is. You don't question how or why you ended up with the disease, you just have to filter through the advice, pick your direction, and keep a positive attitude until you hear the good news that you will survive to fight another day.

This sounds like good advise to a BS but the difference lies in the fact that during a medical trauma, you are given all the facts and all the truth, so a definite decision can be derived.

I have told my WW several times that "the infidelity" was worse than the cancers. I could fight the cancer because I had all the facts. There was no TT from doctors x, y, and z. There is no good advise, no options with known outcomes, and no living or dying in the end. Just limbo.


BS(me) 50
fWS 41
M 13 yrs
2 kids (9-11)

Posts: 54 | Registered: Feb 2013 | From: Gulf Coast
DWBH
♂ Member
Member # 35512
Default  Posted: 8:46 AM, April 24th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Perspective is everything, right? Compared to many other humans on this planet, I live an awesome life. I have everything I could ever want, materially. I've never been hungry, never have been shelter-less, never been inflicted with any horrible disease.

Yet in my life, I've experienced a lot of death/loss from those very close to me. Attended a dozen funerals before I graduated high school; my father's, grandparents, uncles, cousins, friends. Watched my sister take her last breath at age 41, after suffering various organ failure over the course of 10 years.

I have no hesitation in saying my wife's A has been the worst thing I've experienced in my life. Saying goodbye to a loved one is so difficult and painful, yet there is a finality to it. If you could graph a "pain curve", death would have a very high rating, sustained for a very short time, with a fairly predictable curve downwards.

The pain graph on the A would look like someone riding in a Jeep, over rocky ground, during an earthquake, trying to draw a straight line. Completely unpredictable spikes and dips, and so far, very little downward trend.


Me: BH, 43
Her: FWW, 41 (ThornyRose)
M: 16 years, together 19
2 Daughters: 14 and 12
D Day: 9/25/2011; Lies & TT to 5/4/2012
~Double betrayal; caught them in the act~

Posts: 729 | Registered: May 2012 | From: WI
sisoon
♂ Member
Member # 31240
Default  Posted: 9:51 AM, April 24th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I've said our M was 'very good', but it never was perfect. We spent a lot of time on the Drama Triangle 'fighting for the Victim position', and that involved a lot of comparing 'pain'. So I hate to compare the effect of traumas.

But I'm a historian. I've read posts from fellow members who have suffered the loss of a loved one. Some said the loss of the loved one was worse. Some said the A was worse. I think each person who suffers multiple traumas gets to - has to - choose how to integrate the trauma into his head.

I think what's important is that we recognize an A as a big trauma and not try to stuff our feelings/rug-sweep.

It's never 'just an affair', except possibly for relationships none of us would recognize as committed.

[This message edited by sisoon at 9:56 AM, April 24th (Wednesday)]


fBH (me) - 70 (22 in my head), fWW (plainsong) - 65+, Married 45+, together since 1965
DDay - 12/2010
Recovered, not yet fully R'ed
I share my own experience because it's the only experience I know, not because I'm a good model.

Posts: 10339 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: Chicago area
SisterMilkshake
♀ Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 10:13 AM, April 24th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Excellent, sisoon.


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9793 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
Rebreather
♀ Member
Member # 30817
Default  Posted: 11:49 AM, April 24th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Maybe they haven't lost a child, or any loved one, suffered debilitating disease, whatever. In short, they have lived a life free from tragedy, and I can imagine how shocking and tragic an affair is to them. They have never experienced any kind of pain that ever reached this level of emotional pain. It is the greatest pain and suffering they have ever had.

I really disagree with this. This isn't the biggest trauma I've experienced just because I haven't had other trauma. I certainly have. The just simply hit me in a different place. It hit me in the core of my being and shook my entire concept of reality.

But if I could save the life of my child by going through this again? Of course I would. I would relive dday every day if I could spare my children. But that isn't a choice we are given or a power we have. Since we can't trade our pain, we can't compare it in that way.

Like Sisoon said, I think the most critical part of this is to NOT minimize your pain as "just an affair" or that it isn't so bad because it could be cancer. I think that is dangerous and leads to rug sweeping.


Me BS
Him WH
2 ddays in '07
Recovering.
"The cure for the pain, is the pain." -Rumi

Posts: 6545 | Registered: Jan 2011
SisterMilkshake
♀ Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 12:59 PM, April 24th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Rebreather, I was talking about people who have never suffered a tragedy. Of course having your spouse have an affair is the biggest tragedy you have ever had. If nothing tragic happened in your life ever, this would be the worst automatically.

I am saying they have nothing to compare it to. Some of us do have something to compare it to, and we all make decisions on what was the greatest tragedy or trauma to us.

I don't understand what you are disagreeing about, sometimes I can be obtuse, but it sounds like you do agree.

This isn't the biggest trauma I've experienced just because I haven't had other trauma. I certainly have. The just simply hit me in a different place


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9793 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
sohowamI
♀ Member
Member # 36671
Default  Posted: 1:28 PM, April 24th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

No. Not 'just' an affair.

This was far worse than anything that I had experienced in my life. Worse than my father killing himself and worse than one of my children having a severe mental illness. My WH could 'hide' from his affairs under the guise of his 'torment'.

My WH deliberately and with foresight has had multiple affairs and a twelve year 'love' affair. I didn't exist as a person either in his eyes or hers. The negation of my very self; the fact that he didn't love or care or consider me enough to lie, deceive, love her, create children, STDs - you name it - is far, far worse.

It has changed me irrevocably - for worse and for better.


WS had two LTAs of 10 years and 12 years; further 8/9 affairs; EAs, 2 OC. Looks horrific but he is fully immersed in trying to find the 'broken.' It's on-going and painful. If there's a blue sky and sunshine, then it's a good day.

Posts: 168 | Registered: Aug 2012 | From: UK
crazyblindsided
♀ Member
Member # 35215
Default  Posted: 2:31 PM, April 24th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

think it can be worse than any other trauma. Know why? Because it was done to us on purpose.

This is the single most traumatic thing I have ever experieced. Many say that this is worse than losing a spouse or even child.

It challenges your mental health. It scars your sense of self. The single most important person in your life, the person you believe in, trust, ripped out your guts and set them on fire and laughed while they did it.

Rebreather I agree with you!

I have many scars that I keep, each of them have been traumatic in their own unique way, but my WH's infidelity is by far the worst trauma I have had happen to me yet. I actually think that losing one of my children would be worse than my WH's A because I can get rid of him, but I could never get my babies back if that were to happen.


BS/FWS (me):40 Madhatter
WS/BS:42 Serial Cheater
Together 18 years, Married 13
DD(10) DS(7)
DDay(s) 5/08, 5/09, 3/30/12
Final Dday 7/11/14 Affair never ended

Posts: 2266 | Registered: Apr 2012 | From: California
VD2012
♂ Member
Member # 36317
Default  Posted: 2:52 PM, April 24th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

wert, absolutely awesome post. I very much agree with everything you wrote and feel much the same about the nature of tragedies and personal healing.


SisterMilkshake,

However, I do feel that to some people it is the greatest tragedy they have ever suffered. Maybe they haven't lost a child, or any loved one, suffered debilitating disease, whatever. In short, they have lived a life free from tragedy, and I can imagine how shocking and tragic an affair is to them. They have never experienced any kind of pain that ever reached this level of emotional pain. It is the greatest pain and suffering they have ever had.

I agree with this sentiment a lot. I also believe it's why I have been able to adapt, continue healing and generally recover faster than I likely would. My life was one bullshit event to the next from my conception. I'm sadly used to dealing with traumas and "tragedies". My wife's affair has probably affected me the worst emotionally than anything else, but everything prior and my handling of things has equipped me with the skills to deal with it, Thus, it's actually not been the worst thing to happen to me in life.

For others, especially those who haven't had to cope or deal much in life, and those who haven't had to develop the emotional and mental tools to deal with deep emotional pain, this shit must feel like armageddon.

Anyways, an affair is never "just" anything. Why has been discussed already so I have nothing to add. Regardless of anything minimizing pain and suffering is the worst thing that anyone can do to their own pain or that of others. People feel what they feel, and every person feels things in their own similar yet different way.


Me: 28 ~ Her (FR2012): 27
Together: 9 years, 2 children
D-Day: April 19, 2012

Surrender to the truth of life.


Posts: 466 | Registered: Jul 2012 | From: Traversing Dark Places With The Light of Truth
SisterMilkshake
♀ Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 3:06 PM, April 24th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

This is the single most traumatic thing I have ever experieced. Many say that this is worse than losing a spouse or even child.
Yes, I have read those threads, too. And as someone who has lost a child that is unbelievably painful for me to read and to even wrap my head around.

I have recieved pm's from other mothers here who have lost children. We are shocked that anyone would/could feel that way, but everyone is entitled to their feelings.

You know, I am kicking myself in the ass for even reading this thread. I know better. This will be the last time I do this to myself, and this is totally on me because no one here has said this, this is all my feelings.

But, when I read threads like this I feel like "people" are saying my child's life was negligible. His life wasn't negligible. It was the biggest tragedy the world has ever seen. Because it was my child! It broke my heart like no one's heart has ever been broken. Because it was my child!

I don't think of just what I have lost. No, my greatest pain, the worst trauma, comes from what my child has lost.

I am sorry, what has happened on purpose or by accident, doesn't make a bit of difference to me in so far as how traumatic it feels in either circumstance.


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9793 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
crazyblindsided
♀ Member
Member # 35215
Default  Posted: 3:26 PM, April 24th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

(((SisterMilkshake)))

My heart breaks with you sweetie. I'm so sorry


BS/FWS (me):40 Madhatter
WS/BS:42 Serial Cheater
Together 18 years, Married 13
DD(10) DS(7)
DDay(s) 5/08, 5/09, 3/30/12
Final Dday 7/11/14 Affair never ended

Posts: 2266 | Registered: Apr 2012 | From: California
Rebreather
♀ Member
Member # 30817
Default  Posted: 3:48 PM, April 24th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Sister, I can't imagine anyone saying that or thinking that. Nor is it wrong for those who have lost children to still feel like this is the worst trauma in their life. I don't think anyone is trying to compare. And that is the thrust of this message; don't compare. Allow yourself to feel the pain of this experience without judging yourself for it. Otherwise I fear it will increase the healing time for many.


Me BS
Him WH
2 ddays in '07
Recovering.
"The cure for the pain, is the pain." -Rumi

Posts: 6545 | Registered: Jan 2011
SisterMilkshake
♀ Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 4:46 PM, April 24th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Nor is it wrong for those who have lost children to still feel like this is the worst trauma in their life
And this is why I need to, in the future, to keep my eyes, mouth, butt, opinions and feelings out of threads like these, for me.

Thanks, crazy.

Note to self *the Dude abides, the Dude abides, the Dude abides, the Dude abides.*


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9793 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
still-living
♂ Member
Member # 30434
Default  Posted: 10:18 PM, April 24th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

On D-Day, I discovered the levy was dry. Discovering the affair was an actual death of everything as I knew it, and the memories were not so fond. But make it through, and it's the start of a new era.


BH(me)47
WW 47 FOO Issues
DDay 11/09 Coworker
High School Sweethearts
Married 06/91
8 months TT
Sons 19 and 14
Recovery is constructing a pyramid of inference from which to see clearer.
The process involves using the reflexive loop.

Posts: 776 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Ches
Kelany
♀ Member
Member # 34755
Default  Posted: 7:46 AM, April 25th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I wrote about this in my blog last year.

This was a subject that recently came up on one of the infidelity sites that I go to. A member posed the question to other members. Is infidelity the worst thing (pain) you’ve ever experienced in your life thus far?

Overwhelmingly the response was yes. People replied that this was worse that the loss of a loved one, worse that being in the military during combat time, worse than suffering through abuse and trauma as a child.

And I have to say I agree. Emphatically. This is the worst pain that I’ve ever felt in my life. Though I am healing, I’m still struggling through this “journey” as I call it. It’s not a sprint, it’s a marathon. It is a process.

You grieve, just like grieving for the loss of a loved one. I think it was the second session we had with our therapist where she recommended the book On Death and Dying because she said to me that I would have to go through the stages of grief. And given that the pain from losing someone you love lasts forever, the pain from an affair, also lasts forever.

But what makes this harder, is that death? Happens. Sometimes expected, sometimes sudden, we go through life knowing that it happens. We are exposed to it from the time we are young. We are allowed to process, grieve, and deal with the pain. Death, is final, and eventually, we realize, that we are going to lose our loved ones through death. Some sooner than we should, but, we know that it will happen. Though not intentional, it’s more “acceptable” and most often, we are able to process it with time. (I’m not going to touch on traumatic death right now.)

With an affair however, it’s an intentional choice. An intentional choice that is KNOWN to cause pain. Our wayward partner KNOWS ahead of time, that his/her choice will cause pain, will cause hurt, will absolutely betray and crush us, and they still choose to go forward with the affair. And we are left bewildered and wondering why, the person we trusted the most, would intentionally hurt us so deeply. And the process isn’t final. Because of the aftermath of an affair, usually with gas lighting, trickle truth, sometimes when the affair goes underground or through a false recovery, we’re always waiting for that other shoe to drop. The betrayals are numerous, the hurt is limitless. We’re paranoid that the hurt will always come back and bite us again. We try to pick up the pieces, put ourselves back together again, and something else comes along to push us back down. Maybe a new truth discovered, another hurt inflicted on us, or just a partner unwilling to help us heal in a manner that we need to heal.

Then as we heal, we struggle because the triggers, the reminders, the constant struggles that we have to deal with, they don’t go away. Sure, they lessen over time, but they don’t ever go away entirely. And the doubt…it always plagues us. because once you’ve been through this, you never trust your partner fully again. And you SHOULDN’T. You should never trust blindly. So in some ways, you wonder…what if?? The adage now that has become my mantra…trust, but verify. So if I look at our phone bill, and I see a new number on that? My heart skips a beat until I know who it is. If my husband works later than usual? I worry, not really for his safety anymore, like I used to, but my worry now is…is there someone with him? Every time I hear his cell phone chime that he’s gotten a text message, my stomach drops. If he could do this to me once, after being married for 11 years, could he say in another 5? 10? 15??? I will always have a level of suspicion about me.

When a loved one dies, they aren’t doing it to hurt you. They aren’t doing it intentionally. They aren’t trying to put you through hell.

When your partner cheats on you, they leave a wreckage in your life that you never fully recover from. No matter how much healing, how many books, how much therapy, how many hours you put in trying to repair your relationship, you are traumatized for the rest of your life in a way that can’t ever be fixed completely.

For me, I’ve been through childhood sexual abuse, the loss of some very close loved ones, two miscarriages, pain medication addiction and 5 years of chronic health issues. NONE of them compared to the pain and trauma of infidelity. Nothing has ever made me want to feel physical pain in my life to escape my emotional pain. I’ve dealt with a lot of blows. This? Shattered me. Changed who I was, to my very core. I will be gluing those pieces of me back together forever.


BS - Me
SA/FWH Him
DDay 1 - Jul 11
DDay 2 - Jul 12
R Dec 12

Former 80s Icon wishful thinking


Posts: 2031 | Registered: Feb 2012
Kelany
♀ Member
Member # 34755
Default  Posted: 7:54 AM, April 25th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Maybe an affair isn't the worst thing for EVERYONE. But for some it is.

And to say across the board that it shouldn't be or that because they haven't experienced a big enough tragedy, that's just wrong.


BS - Me
SA/FWH Him
DDay 1 - Jul 11
DDay 2 - Jul 12
R Dec 12

Former 80s Icon wishful thinking


Posts: 2031 | Registered: Feb 2012
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