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User Topic: I wish there was a manual on how to get it right...
Finally10
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Member # 36900
Default  Posted: 12:07 PM, May 9th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Anyway, I just sent him a text and he replied "oh wow, why the sudden niceness".

There's your opening - go for it and keep in mind all the advice you have received here.


Posts: 113 | Registered: Sep 2012
BostonGirl
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Member # 33930
Default  Posted: 11:20 PM, May 9th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Heavy Sigh said,

I dislike asking this, but thought I'd throw it on the table:
It seems as if Trying's and Boston's spouses were distant before this, and in Boston's situation even disinterested in sex.

Are both of you certain that your BS'es are distant because of pain and denial - time for adjustment - and not because they've been in longterm affairs of some type, or just checked out emotionally for other reasons? I realize that on an affair site all marriage issues begin to look like affair behavior after a long while. I'm not suggesting confronting spouses or accusing, just thinking this through, maybe look at behavior in past to see if anything might fit with evidence rather than just fear and panic feelings at this point of even considering the possibility?

I am totally and completely sure that my husband wasn't having an affair.

A few long years into really dealing with our marriage issues, and my husband is finally starting to really GET that his FOO was profoundly fucked up, and that he has some serious dysfunction to get past. He was conflict averse in the extreme (and still struggles with it). ANYTHING that made him uncomfortable made him withdraw--and that included both praise/loving gestures/expressed desire to get closer or have more sex, as well as anything that could even be remotely construed as critical. He remained in the marriage because, as I say, he was/is dutiful, but he was totally checked out otherwise...and of course completely unwilling to recognize/admit/engage about it, because that would mean conflict.

Passive aggressive behavior is crazymaking. I totally get the advice that another contributor is making, that the OP does need to focus on herself rather than getting her husband to change. But if further investigation about passive-aggressiveness really rings true, well, that is a really freaking hard row to hoe. Things have changed much for the better but we are not out of the woods yet, and if I had to go back and fight this fight all over again I am not sure I would.

What's done is done and you did get emotionally entangled with someone else. In the process you learned that things need to change in your marriage. It is important to own your stuff and important to be caring about your spouse and his response/healing. But in a healthy marriage that's supposed to go both ways, and if it really honest-to-god was not and is not, well, it is totally within bounds for even a WS to demand communication and mutual problem-solving. Just because you're human and make a mistake doesn't mean that you abdicate the ability to have wants, needs, desires ever again.


It'll all be OK in the end. If it's not OK, it's not the end.

Posts: 133 | Registered: Nov 2011 | From: Boston
Trying33
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Member # 38815
Default  Posted: 4:21 AM, May 10th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

There's your opening - go for it and keep in mind all the advice you have received here.

Your words have stayed with me. I made some noticable and consious changes in my behaviour with him yesterday. Made a real difference to his demeanour.

I'm making and effort and so is he...


Posts: 362 | Registered: Mar 2013
Trying33
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Member # 38815
Default  Posted: 3:15 AM, May 22nd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Well this lasted a whole of 12 days before I exploded again last night. I've tried and have been successful in holding it together and not getting defensive or initiating any negative discussion etc.

During the last 12 days we've not discussed our M once. It's been very practical and functional. Every day I feel like I'm living with a stranger and have felt lonlier than ever.

I brought up the affair again in an argument. Asked him how come he doesn't hate me. Why he can't face his problems etc. Why he avoids any type of stress etc. Is there anything he believes in. I just let it all out.

Again, I was stone-walled and dismissed.

This morning I got this:

"I am humbly requesting that you never bring up that issue again. I never want to talk about it and am dealing with it in my own way. I am ensuring you this is the best way for our marriage otherwise there may not be one. If you choose to pursue this topic with me (my EA) then I can promise you it will end badly for everyone involved so, for this reason, please don't discuss this with me again"

I just don't know what to do anymore. We're meeting tonight to discuss our marriage and our concerns. Not sure how it will all go.

Any advice really appreciated.


Posts: 362 | Registered: Mar 2013
20WrongsVs1
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Member # 39000
Default  Posted: 7:47 AM, May 22nd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

He has to deal with it in his own way. That may be all he has left. My experience is not similar to yours, but BH and I are knee-deep in figuring out how to deal with this, and stumbling constantly.

Will he talk about your marriage and relationship, if you promise not to bring up the A?

Why he can't face his problems etc. Why he avoids any type of stress etc.

My one piece of advice: Speak for yourself, not him.


fWW: 42
BH: 52
DDay: April 21, 2013
Sweet DS & fierce DD, under 10
"Between stimulus and response there’s a space, in that space lies our power to choose our response, in our response lies our growth and our freedom." V. Frankl

Posts: 1233 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Redneck land
mike7
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Member # 38603
Default  Posted: 7:00 PM, May 22nd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

"I am humbly requesting that you never bring up that issue again. I never want to talk about it and am dealing with it in my own way. I am ensuring you this is the best way for our marriage otherwise there may not be one. If you choose to pursue this topic with me (my EA) then I can promise you it will end badly for everyone involved so, for this reason, please don't discuss this with me again"

This seems pretty clear to me, and humble.

why are you pushing? Are you saying that if he doesn't do things the way you want him to he is wrong? Are you telling him how to act?

Has he changed? Or did you? You had the affair. did that change him?

Maybe you are through with him.


BH 53
WW 52
Two kids 21, 18

DDay 1/15/2013


Posts: 542 | Registered: Mar 2013
Trying33
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Member # 38815
Default  Posted: 12:45 AM, May 23rd (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Will he talk about your marriage and relationship, if you promise not to bring up the A?

That's what we did last night. It seemed to help. We both came with a list of issues and needs we'd like addressed. His list was predominantly concerns related to my personality (inpatience, need for instant gratification, inability to tolerate difficult situations). Mine was all about not feeling like a team, never feeling like we're on the same side, always me vs him and obviously the lack of connection and emotional intamacy.


why are you pushing? Are you saying that if he doesn't do things the way you want him to he is wrong? Are you telling him how to act?

The A didn't come up and didn't need to I guess. I'm pushing because I guess I'm trying to follow a formula that is suggested here. I guess my thinking has been that if it's not all out in the open then true healing cannot take place. I just read the thread about taking a break from SI. I do feel SI influences me quite alot. I like coming here because it provides me with alot of support and I get to vent and seek advice. I don't have this in real life. Maybe I need to realise there are many ways to heal a M and this depends on the people IN the M.

I read so many stories of how BS's act. They are very similar. So when my BH doesn't fit that "mould" I automatically try to make him. Why isn't he angry and lashing out? Why isn't he asking me questions and details? How come he hasn't asked me for my passwords? Is this fake R? Is he making me think we're all good then at some point in the future he'll trigger and then all this will come out? Isn't it "normal" for a BS to be seething?

A friend on SI pointed out that maybe I want all these reactions in order to prove that he loves me. That somehow the lack of reaction demonstrates to me that he doesn't care which has always been one of my insecurities.

Well I guess he is angry but in a different way to what I see on SI. He is disconnected and withdrawn. Going through the motions of life and dealing with it in his own way. Shutting me out and not letting me in. That's anger in itself.

Has he changed? Or did you? You had the affair. did that change him?

I don't think either of us has changed and that's the point. We need to change/adapt in order to fulfill the other's needs. I don't think the A has changed him. He seems exactly the same. We are where we were post A. The A was a convenient distraction to not deal with our issues. Now we must.

Maybe you are through with him.

I often think that but again, I know, that's a copout and an escape, just like the A was. Seem's to be how I handle conflict in my life, escape it.


Posts: 362 | Registered: Mar 2013
Trying33
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Member # 38815
Default  Posted: 12:49 AM, May 23rd (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

If anyone know's of any threads where BS's have reacted in similar ways to my BH please post them for me. Thank-you.

Have you come across any BH's who have chosen NOT to follow the conventional healing/R route and have managed to successfully R? Normally this is refered to as rugsweeping and from what I read the WS usually end ups having another A or the BS never truly heals and it always impacts the M.


Posts: 362 | Registered: Mar 2013
20WrongsVs1
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Member # 39000
Default  Posted: 6:55 AM, May 23rd (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Sweetie, I'm a rookie at this too, but I worry that your last post indicates you want to prove to yourself--with evidence--that your way is the right way.

The A didn't come up and didn't need to I guess. I'm pushing because I guess I'm trying to follow a formula that is suggested here. I guess my thinking has been that if it's not all out in the open then true healing cannot take place.

Consider putting a complete stop to the pushing, and accepting your H's way of dealing with this. Eventually he may feel ready to look under the rug.


fWW: 42
BH: 52
DDay: April 21, 2013
Sweet DS & fierce DD, under 10
"Between stimulus and response there’s a space, in that space lies our power to choose our response, in our response lies our growth and our freedom." V. Frankl

Posts: 1233 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Redneck land
noescape
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Member # 34888
Default  Posted: 7:17 AM, May 23rd (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

What Finally10 ^^^^ said.Also, I'd suggest you head to ICR and look for the BM thread, read a few of WALs posts and try steering your H there. You wont like it, its not pretty, but it gives a roadmap for the BH to move to a stable place of healing (if thats what you want for him).


I don't understand why he doesn't want to know what the issues were in the marriage (from my pov).

Think you have it wrong there, maybe you want to first go into the reasons/issues with yourself and why an A was 'the solution'.

Big red flag, M issues dont have any airtime,and harping on about them is classic blameshift (of the A on the BSs shoulders). Not to say there arent M issues and they dont need to be worked on, but whats important is working on YOUR why's of coping with them led to killing your M.

About HNHN, I'd say its generally a good book but the wrong foot to start off on. It seems too "blame shifty" on to the BS for what is essentially the brokenness of the WS. Accountability and remorse should be your mantra right now.

I had an A because I needed affection and sex and my husband absolutely would not give either regardless of how I asked or how hurt I was by their absence.

Would such a choice make it ok for your H to respond in a similar manner to things he percieves to be missing in his M? I dont think you have the 'because' worked out yet. It is rarely an issue in the M and has more to do with holes in the WS/unhealthy coping skills. I am surprised that none of the vets have chimed in yet. Sorry, but just giving some honest advise here. And I wish people here would stop demonising/laying so much blame on the BH/BS.


Posts: 739 | Registered: Feb 2012
Finally10
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Member # 36900
Default  Posted: 10:44 AM, May 23rd (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Well I guess he is angry but in a different way to what I see on SI. He is disconnected and withdrawn. Going through the motions of life and dealing with it in his own way. Shutting me out and not letting me in. That's anger in itself.

Reverting a little to my earlier post about shame,("Thoughts on Shame") I suggest you review Dr. Browns videos and look through her book some. Men feel shame intensely and according to Dr brown process it in two primary responses - Pissed off or Shut down(withdraw) - your BH sounds very much like the later. Have you considered that your BH is feeling shame? Shame that he wasn't enough, not good enough, not "man" enough, not anything enough to keep you from looking elsewhere? Have you considered that he may fear showing emotional vulnerability and perhaps consider it a sign of weakness if he allows himself to react in front of you?

To reiterate something i said in a previous post, I suggest you respect his request and let him work through it in his own way, while you work through your own issues. I strongly encourage IC for yourself regardless of what he is or may do in the future.

He has given you a list of things he is concerned about - work on them. As far as the other formulaic approaches like transparency, passwords, details... if you feel the need, write it all down and seal it in an envelope, put passwords and stuff in a folder he can find if he wants them, and just be transparent. Don't look for validation from him on these things, just do them because they are the right thing to do.


Posts: 113 | Registered: Sep 2012
heartbroken0903
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Default  Posted: 9:21 AM, May 24th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I read so many stories of how BS's act. They are very similar. So when my BH doesn't fit that "mould" I automatically try to make him. Why isn't he angry and lashing out? Why isn't he asking me questions and details? How come he hasn't asked me for my passwords?

My situation is a little different than yours as XH and I were divorced for 2 years before we started reconciling (and in fact we are still divorced), but he sounds extremely similar to your BH.

Mine never really wanted to discuss it, even at the beginning of R, and doesn't want to discuss it anymore at this point...like, ever again. He used to get mad and/or shut down when I'd bring it up, so I just don't anymore. My passwords are available out of courtesy, but he has never asked for them, and AFAIK has never used them.

Have you come across any BH's who have chosen NOT to follow the conventional healing/R route and have managed to successfully R?

I would say our R is going well. I hope XH would say the same. Otherwise, really, what's the point? We're D. We don't live together (although he spends most of his time here). No kids. I can financially take care of myself. What other reason, then, besides wanting to be together and the R going well? Even despite his unconventional path as a (f)BH.

[This message edited by heartbroken0903 at 9:21 AM, May 24th (Friday)]


Me: XWS, 30s, 5-month EA/PA in '09-'10
Husband: XBS, 40s
No kids

Married 2.5 years
D-day 3/6/10
Divorced 5/14/10

Remarried.


Posts: 2230 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: the cat's meow
Trying33
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Default  Posted: 2:06 AM, May 25th (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Shame that he wasn't enough, not good enough, not "man" enough, not anything enough to keep you from looking elsewhere? Have you considered that he may fear showing emotional vulnerability and perhaps consider it a sign of weakness if he allows himself to react in front of you?

Definately all of this.

I think he also feels hopeless that despite everyting he does for me and everything we have going for us, it's STILL not good enough for me. So he often feels like "what's the point". I have gently reassured him that I appreciate everything he does etc.

This is such a rollercoaster.

Finally, does my BH resonate with you and your personality?


Posts: 362 | Registered: Mar 2013
I think I can
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Member # 17756
Default  Posted: 7:34 AM, May 25th (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

about not feeling like a team, never feeling like we're on the same side, always me vs him

This struck me---the "always" "never" construction. Can you try to focus on what the problem is RIGHT THEN? Discuss what just happened, what just went wrong? Categorizing things as always/never is extremely self-defeating.


I'm not the winner, I'm the prize.

Posts: 8827 | Registered: Jan 2008
Finally10
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Member # 36900
Default  Posted: 9:46 AM, May 25th (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Finally, does my BH resonate with you and your personality?

I'm not sure I would be able to handle my W betraying me in the way your husband is. If history is an example, one of my HS GF's went on a college trip and the rumors of her behavior sent me into a memorable screaming match that is remembered to this day.

You seem to be looking for your H to prove his love for you by acting a certain way in response to your wayward behavior. A better question is "What are you doing to prove your love to him?" You do this by changing your behavior, you learn how to manage your anger, learn his love language and learn to speak it among many other ways.

You dug a giant hole with your behavior and you have to help him out of it. You may have to carry him out until he feels ready to start climbing out himself.

Remember - Pissed off or Shut down - He will get to Pissed Off one day and you need to be ready for it and able to respond in ways that exclude defensiveness, anger and blame shifting. Educate yourself and prepare.

[This message edited by Finally10 at 9:47 AM, May 25th (Saturday)]


Posts: 113 | Registered: Sep 2012
tired girl
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Default  Posted: 10:22 AM, May 25th (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hlessons acted a lot like your H after his Dday. Didn't want to talk about it and didn't want details. I tried over and over again in MC to get us to that point just to be told to leave it alone. For me to work on myself. I came here and read the Betrayed Men's thread so I could get an idea of what my H was going through, I posted threads asking what I should do for him.

In the end, it was his healing to take care of, and I needed to let go of. I spent a lot of time trying to direct his healing and that was time I should have been fixing me.

Get busy working on you. That is the best thing you can give him and your M.


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 5071 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
mike7
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Member # 38603
Default  Posted: 11:26 AM, May 25th (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

what Tiredgirl said

you need to fix yourself first.

then worry about the marriage.

my question "has he changed?" has to do with why you married him. if you married him, why did you? if he hasn't changed, why do you want him to? think of the good things about him that caused you to marry him, not the bad things that somehow fail to meet your current needs.

finally, this site is a good site, but that's it. there is a way of dealing with things here that is good. but that doesn't mean it fits everyone. if he doesn't fit the "typical" BH, too bad. TiredGirl's BH didn't either. Everybody is different. Don't force a rectangle into a square.

If you get the chance, read Wincing's Sparkle's thread about the lifeboat. Your BH is still in the lifeboat with you. He's in pain, but he's still there. Don't force him out because you think you know what's best for him.

[This message edited by mike7 at 3:42 PM, May 25th (Saturday)]


BH 53
WW 52
Two kids 21, 18

DDay 1/15/2013


Posts: 542 | Registered: Mar 2013
Trying33
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Member # 38815
Default  Posted: 11:02 AM, May 26th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

You seem to be looking for your H to prove his love for you by acting a certain way in response to your wayward behavior

I would tend to agree with you here but need to do the why's behind this.

Didn't want to talk about it and didn't want details. I tried over and over again in MC to get us to that point just to be told to leave it alone.

This is what I'm resoundingly hearing too. I've resolved to do this and manage for a fair time, then something happens to make me bring it up again. This is where I now need to assert some self-control and read up on anger management techniques.

my question "has he changed?" has to do with why you married him. if you married him, why did you? if he hasn't changed, why do you want him to?

Essentially he hasn't changed. I think I have. What I used to tolerate earlier in my marriage I no longer can. There were many traits of his that I struggled with when we decided to marry. I overlooked them as there were many other attractive traits and I loved him. The traits I overlooked or tried to ignore are now a problem for me and impact on our marriage when in the past I've always dealt with them. He is who he is and I can't change him. I'm sure there are many things about me he'd like to change but he accepts me for who I am.

I believe I now need to reconcile with some of his mentality towards how we live our life OR not. It's coming down to personal value systems. I hope in time this is something we can discuss in MC, but for now, I'm still working on my own personal why's.


Posts: 362 | Registered: Mar 2013
tired girl
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Default  Posted: 11:20 AM, May 26th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

The problem here is that you are still focusing on the M and him. The focus should be on you. You are the issue here. It took me nearly a year to get to that point. And then the light bulb went on. I had the problem, not my M not my H.

Were there huge issues in my M? Yep. Is that what caused me to fuck up? Nope. Quit looking everywhere else. Look in the mirror.


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 5071 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
Heavy Sigh
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Member # 34243
Default  Posted: 11:52 AM, May 26th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Silence is how some people handle trauma, large (war) or other traumas (seeing grandpa struggle for breath and dying from lung cancer).

They know there is nothing that can be done or said to change things, or to make them feel better about it and will only implant the event more deeply into trauma, and so talking about the experience makes them re-experience it.

I've known some Vietnam veterans who will say they do not wish to discuss their service, and heroes with medals who wince when asked to tell even their grandchildren about wartime.

Most BS'es who wish to talk about affairs are seeking reassurance it won't happen again and that the WS'es will never do it again.

Your WS may be confident you will never do it again, but you mentioning it time and again makes him question why he didn't leave the first time, and makes him think that YOU believe he was a wuss for not leaving and don't respect him. That he is a compartmentalizer who prefers to go all-amnesia on the affair to where doubts and pain don't intrude upon his life and work, and you bringing it up won't allow him to do that.

That's my only guess as to the whys of his behavior.

[This message edited by Heavy Sigh at 11:53 AM, May 26th (Sunday)]


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