Yes, she has work to do on herself. Let her do that, and you make sure Calkid is getting what he needs ok?
Lots of hugs
you is kind, you is smart, you is important
I don't think the images will ever leave. I think all you can hope for is that they diminish a little and you don't think about them on a daily basis.
So what has your wife said about all of this? Does she seem remorseful? Cry at all? I think she doesn't need to be going away like this anymore unless for work, and if so, you go with her.
Good luck, hope the best.
I can't tell you how many WW's have told their BH that the sex wasn't as good, the junk wasn't as big, the OM never orgasmed, etc. etc. etc, and how everytime it's been a lie.
It all goes back to lie detector, and STD tests.
The night that she blew him, she was sharing a hotel room with Mr. D and two other woman (one of which Mr. D is fucking, my wife couldn't sleep, went downstairs to the lobby, was smoking a cig and asked herself, "What would I gain by letting him fuck me? He's got a little dick, if Calkid found out, he'd ever R with me, and I've got a much bigger and nicer dick waiting for me at home." Then the next morning, everyone was getting ready except my wife was lying in the bed, the other two girls went downstairs and left Mr. D alone with my wife. She said he was looking down at her in the bed, staring her right in the eyes, when said she could tell he was thinking about fucking her.
Wait, what? She shared a hotel room with him and two other women? And one he was also sleeping with? I would want EVERY detail about this. I don't know a lot of grown men and women who would share a room in this manner.
He's got a little dick, if Calkid found out, he'd ever R with me, and I've got a much bigger and nicer dick waiting for me at home
That is fucked up....I am sorry for the language, but she is full of shit!
I am so sorry for your pain, this is unbearable to read,
Your WW almost (almost, barely) had me thinking for 10 seconds that she was remorseful and from where you started this thread to where you were seemed on the right path.
That was before this last crock of shit that came tumbling out of her mouth.
And, it is evil and meant to inflict pain to top it off.
"Why do you think he didn't try to fuck me, Cal??" Hmmm... let's sit here and ponder that, shall we? So odd, she says.
Cal, I am so very sorry, but please remember the awful details and embellishments she added to make her first cycle of this sordid tale "believable." Remember the ear nibbling, etc. The balcony scene. The dialogue.
THIS IS PURE B.S.
You may not care now - because you are over-loaded and you WANT so much to believe her.
But, if you are anything like many of us here, as time goes by, your brain will start picking apart every little discrepancy, every little nuance.
Heck, yesterday, I realized that SEVEN YEARS ago, I had invited my WH to lunch (was in his area of work unexpectedly) and he shot me down but kept asking where I would be - BECAUSE HE WAS WITH HIS MCOW. This is only one of thousands of details that have bubbled to the surface after my subconscious continues to replay and process the BULLSH*T stories and match them up to facts.
I am sorry to go on and on...
But, this "story" and specifically how the heroine has "her refusal all ready to go" but because Mr. D is (implied) such an honorable man, didn't even need her response because he didn't even try...
And, one final note.
Why does it matter?
IT IS HORRIBLE, over the top, disrespectful, direct evidence that she STILL.DOES.NOT.GET.IT.
She cannot possibly start to move forward with her continued mindset of minimizing, gas lighting, and LYING.
(((HUGS!)) I, unfortunately, cannot offer advice on HOW to get the truth - only that I know when I am not seeing it. Polygraph? Ultimatum? Whatever the answer is, I know BS only have a limited window of time "power-wise" -- after too long, it is almost like a statute of limitations kicks in and it doesn't feel feasible to still be demanding answers.
HUGS. PLEASE INSIST ON THE TRUTH FOR YOURSELF.
I do not intend this to be more piling on, just relating what I see from my personal perspective. Your actual mileage may vary.
I do not remember all of the details of my first two months, but FWW and I got to a point where there was an agreed to narrative. She implied she had sex with OM, in my mind maybe a dozen times over 3 years and 2 OM, mostly oral.
At about 6 months I was really hitting a point of rage, not just angry, but rage. Little pieces just did not make sense. Under pressure from me and our MC, she provided me with 4 written pages of additional details. Not a full timeline, but it greatly expanded the scope and depth of her A. Overnight meetings in out of town hotels, daytime meetings in hotels, phone sex, stexting, photos, earlier OM with 2x ONS, sex about 2x a month over 2-3 years with OM.
The purpose of my post though is not to warn you to expect more (others have done that adequately). My point is that no matter how many OM, how many times she fucked or blew them, or sent photos and masturbated on the phone with them, it all came form the same place, the same brokenness. She craved the attention, the external validation, the sense of power having 3 OM attracted to her. She had re-written the M blaming me. She was not happy and concluded that I was the reason that she was not happy.
The reality is my FWW had a bunch of unresolved issues from her childhood, from some sexual abuse, from some personality traits that she needed to work through and figure out. No matter if it was the first OM she blew in a bathroom after work, or the last one she had a 2+ year A with, it was all driven by the same thing.
...thanks me from saving her from this messed up lifestyle, says she never wants to go through anything like this ever again.
If she never wants to go through something like this again, she needs to figure out why she did in the first place. I do not mean the surface reasons of you not paying attention, but the deeper whys. Why when you were not paying attention did she look to attention from OM? Why did she thing sharing a hotel room with OM and women was OK?
We've also set or reestablished boundaries. No going to clubs or bars without the other person - EVER, no drinking alchahol in a plublic place without the other person, no texting the opposite sex unless they are gay, no spending time alone with the opposite sex - ever, no talking about our relationship with the opposite sex, etc.
New boundaries are good, and important, but why is it that she will not break the new boundaries as she did the old ones the next time she feels lonely or unattractive? It is nice that she does not want to hurt you again, but why was it OK to hurt you this time? Why did she think it would be OK to blow OM so long as she did not fuck him?
"What would I gain by letting him fuck me? He's got a little dick, ...
If I had a dollar for every time since dday that I have been told by FWW how big my dick is I could be retired on my boat. I do not think I am small, but I am not exceptional. This is a quick and easy one for FWW to "make it OK", but when you think about it, how happy should I be with the equivalent of: Oh Honey, your dick is so much bigger and nicer than the other dicks I have had since we were married."
During her two weeks away she should make appointments for IC when she gets back to figure out her whys. While she is gone, is there a way for you to verify that Mr. D is where he should be and not where she is?
Just like last night, I got her shit faced drunk, almost to the point do passing out, telling me stuff she would never tell me sober.
This is a problem. Your wife needs to be totally honest with you and she needs to be sober when she is. You should write down everything she's told you so far then keep asking the same questions. See if the answers change at all. So far they have, but keep asking to see if things keep changing. Maybe ask her to write it all out for you as well? Write out the timeline, the details, etc.
I made my WH sit down with me and go through everything. I told him if he left out anything that I would find out later and it would put us right back at D-Day. He told me all of the embarressing details and we're in R. If you want to R with her, then sit her down and say "Look, I need to know the honest to God truth. Nothing is going to hurt me or surprise me at this point, but we can't move forward until I know everything and the truth." And insist she goes to IC. She needs to figure out why she did this. The hotel room alone says she has boundary issues.
Lastly, ask her to read "Not Just Friends". My IC told me her test for couples is to ask them to read a book. If the Wayward spouse refuses or doesn't follow through, she knows right then that they aren't committed to R.
Sorry you have to go through this. It's hell and none of us here deserved it.
I would strongly suggest you stick with having her do a poly.
I also am concerned because I am seeing a pattern of self medication with alcohol. Yes this is a very difficult time, however drinking to the point of being "drunk" is not helpful to either of you. If she is not sleeping then she needs to get medication, not drunk. I will only make her feel worse physically and mentally.
I agree with Tushnurse and many others- I'm not attacking you or your wife when I say she's lying- she's most likely lying because she thinks she's protecting you or thinks you'll leave her.
I say this because I can't physically imagine a scenario where someone would be like yes do this/do that but this is my husband's- do you know what I mean?? Like- how could she have been thinking of you when someone's doing that to her?
I'm 99% certain my wife wasn't thinking about me when she was having it away- the 1% comes from the first 5 seconds where she might have done- before she made the choice. When the choice is made I think thoughts of spouses goes out the window mate.
Alea iacta est...
I told him that if he said anything to anyone to make my wife look bad, I'd be on the first plane back east, find him, and beat him within an inch of his life.
You did not cheat. If the rent check bounces because "Mr. D." is vengeful---well, that's a pretty natural consequence of your wife's choices.
She is an adult. She made very adult choices, knowing very well that the consequences for them, if discovered, would be dire.
Why are you acting as though she is not responsible for her actions?
Mr. D is no more in need of a "beating within an inch of his life" than anyone else in this scenario.
Take the focus off him. In fact, take the focus off ALL of this.
Focus on YOURSELF. Read, in the Healing Library, #11 in the FAQs for BSs. It addresses the 180. This technique of detachment allows the BS to gain perspective. You think you have things under control now, and will protest you don't need this. You have a LOT of people telling you the same thing, and you're refusing to listen. I get that---really, I do. (I was also abysmal at the 180, but practice makes perfect and, by the time I learned it, I REALLY REALLY REALLY needed it, and was glad that others had belabored its importance.)
Here's the deal: you can't control anything or anyone but yourself.
Your wife? She's not in it yet. Will she be, soon? She very well may be. But right now, she's not. Your new boundaries, rules, etc? They are meaningless. Your discussions of her affairs? Full of shit.
You're not going to change her---not what she does, not what she feels, not what she thinks. You just can't---EVER.
This is a very difficult concept for many to grasp, and it's clear you're struggling with it.
What you CAN change is yourself. No, I'm not suggesting that any flaw in you contributed to your wife's decision to cheat. What I am suggesting is that, in the aftermath of that disgusting decision, the only thing you can control is YOUR response.
Trying to elicit the responses you want from your wife is futile. Take it from the woman who, when she was not a puddle of tears and snot on the bathroom floor, was hectoring her long-cheating husband in an attempt to first elicit the truth (never came, never will), then create a marriage from the rubble. (You do know that your marriage is dead, right? That if you choose to remain married, you will have to start from the beginning, only without the champagne and hors d'oeuvres. Instead, you'll be starting with a pile of shit---which is why you need 100% commitment from your wife.)
So. Focus on yourself. Ease back from the affair----it wasn't YOUR affair, after all---and let your wife figure that out. (It would be great if she did so in IC, but again, if she's not 100% in, that's a waste of time and money and, with the wrong counselor, can be very damaging to the marriage; a lying WS and a coddling IC can do a heck of a lot of harm.)
Let her handle the consequences of her affair, including getting a glimpse of life without you there to pooper-scoop for her.
Focus on the 180. Get YOURSELF strong. Learn what you can and cannot control (because you're waaaaaay off the mark now). Learn what does and does not help you. Most of all, learn that you will survive this, no matter what.
You think, right now, that standing up for your woman with this "small-dicked Mr. D" is somehow helpful to her. Really, it's enabling behavior. It sends her the message that no matter how she messes up, you will fix it.
And you can't. Even if you want to.
This is her infidelity. It is her mess to clean up.
When she is committed to doing so, then yes---there are some aspects for which your participation will be essential.
But for now? Let her feel her feelings without insulating them. Let her learn to cope with the consequences herself.
Failing to do so not only jeopardizes a healthy reconciliation, but is harmful TO HER. It infantilizes her. It tells her you don't have faith in her. It teaches her she can't trust herself to do things on her own.
And yeah, in light of her transgressions, this may SEEM true. But the fact is, until she learns how to comport herself appropriately, she will not be a suitable, safe partner for you.
So you do YOUR job: focus on yourself. Become a healthier person (why? because it's the right thing to do). Establish your OWN boundaries. Learn to identify what you can and cannot control, and detach from the latter; it's NOT YOUR CONCERN.
Let your wife feel her feelings. Let her endure the consequences of her actions. (No, I'm not saying punish her; I'm saying let her feel fear, if she's concerned about fallout. If the fallout materializes, allow her to experience that. You can't spare her, really, anyway--you can just make idle gestures, like threatening to beat "Mr. D" up. Which is ... not helpful, at best. Let her own her actions, feel their consequences, and make her own decisions about when and how to return to the marriage. The fact is, she may not choose to do so at the time or in a way that is acceptable to you; it's important for YOU to see this, and to make an informed decision about whether you choose to remain in the marriage that has yet to be defined. The one you had is over. The one to be built may not work for you. The only way you will know this is if you step back and let her become the woman she is to be. The woman you married is gone. You owe it to BOTH of you to observe the woman taking her place---because there's nothing worse than trying to fit that puzzle piece in next to you, only to find out, years hence, that it never did fit, and everything YOU'VE worked so hard for has been just gone along with----or resented---for years, something that sadly is often the outcome, when D-days 2 and subsequent roll around.)
I am VERY sorry for you pain. Please do not mistake my bluntness for a lack of care; I really do. I am just sharing what I learned over a very long marriage with a man who is now a stranger. If I could do it over, I'd 180 from the first hint of infidelity, and watch very carefully to see if my husband and I even HAD a future, before working hard to preserve it.
ETA: I agree, discontinue the drinking games. In vino veritas is a fallacy; what you "learn" from her about her "remorse" when drunk is false. Alcohol merely brings out the maudlin, not the truth.
And Jana brings up a good question: Is "Mr. D." married? If so, consider letting his wife know of his extracurriculars. She should know what is going on so she can make informed decisions about her life--including the decision to be tested for STD.
[This message edited by solus sto at 10:46 AM, May 10th (Friday)]
We've also set or reestablished bounderies. No going to clubs or bars without the other person - EVER, no drinking alc(o)hol in a plublic place without the other person, no texting the opposite sex unless they are gay, no spending time alone with the opposite sex - ever, no talking about our relationship with the opposite sex, etc.
You should clarify that those are HER boundaries, not yours. You have not done anything to warrant having those types of boundaries placed upon you. Put the burden of earning trust on HER, not you. If you want to go to a bar with friends female or male, that should be of no concern to her, except that you tell her up front. What? You might cheat? You say "it's so so" and "if you want to call, call" and "i'll be home at x time" and "we're just friends". The reality is she has now her own self-originating trust issues and she will object big time.
Trust me I've made this mistake and know. You see my wife when we met had been cheated on by her 1st husband and she placed all kinds of restrictions on me that weren't right. She NEVER trusted me--EVER. I thought I was being a good man by going alone. All I was doing was enabling her to never rebuild her trust of anyone. Don't enable her. Trust is everything, but if a person can't trust you, you can't make them. Enabling her by keeping yourself also under lock and key doesn't help AT ALL.
Also, she is only ok with those boundaries because now she knows you know that she fucked other people, and she's afraid that you might think about doing the same "in a moment of weakness". Not that you ever would, but that's her thinking.
Tell her that those boundaries apply to her and HER alone. The rest about bars and alcohol and talking to the opposite sex.... NO NO, All of that applies to her only at this point. You are not a criminal. You did nothing to deserve the dragnet. You are still trustworthy. You have not violated her in any way. It was her. You have shown 20+ years of trustworthiness. Not her.
You will know from this test alone where you truly stand. If she says that it's not fair, then you know that she's lying about being remorseful, she's lied about everything so far, and she's probably still having an affair, both emotional and probably physical.
Now I know what you're going to say--that you want to show her respect and bla bla bla. You're like me. You're a good man. You don't want to be a bad husband. You'd never cheat on her. Yada yada yada. Whatever. She's being nothing more than a manipulative BITCH. I know because friend my wife used that against me also. Don't bite.
And let's get one thing absolutely straight. She absolutely, most postively DID have sex with him. Doesn't anyone else see this contradiction? She said her VaJJ was for you only , but he was allowed to rub it? I mean I know I'm a pretty young compared to many others on here, but I'm old enough to know that's not exactly how passion works. So he rubbed it for how long? You see how stupid that is?
Also, the fact that she has blamed you in any way shape or form at all at any point in time is evidence that she is not the least bit remorseful. AT. ALL.
I'd say FUCK THE BITCH, divorce her and move on. But ok, so you don't want to divorce. Fine. You need to at the very least file for legal separation at this point, with YOU having custody of any minor kids out of the 5 you have. If she has an issue with it, ask her if she'd rather separation or divorce?
Also, it is a time of reflection, which is what you so badly need. AWAY. FROM. HER. Trust me, after a few weeks away from seeing her face, you will definitely see her differently. TRUST ME. The ugliness within that is coming out of her will have changed how she physically looks and when you see her for the first time in a couple of weeks/months, your jaw will drop and you will be amazed at what she's turned into. That is the real eye opener. At least it has been for me. Every time I see her and how "ugly" she looks, it's make me sick to think I was believing her crap for so long. And the only thing that would start to make my wife beautiful again is self-originating confession of all her deeds and remorse for what she's done. And, asking for forgiveness. Even then, it would take a long time to see her as beautiful as I once did.
Everyone keeps saying you need a lie detector for the whole truth. I for one do not think you NEED it to know that she's lied to you about it all. My friend, you already KNOW what happened. Understand that you are taking your information from a known and convicted liar. You are just in denial about it. She is TTing you. And the reality is you will never get ALL of the truth from her. You first have to know the facts to ask the questions.
With that being said, let's just put it in the most clear/vulgar terms possible so you can get it over and move on...
He ate her out
He fucked her doggy style
She fucked on top
He fucked her sideways
He fucked her missionary style
He came inside her
He stuck it in her butt
He fucked her in the shower
She fucked him silly
They probably video taped it too. YUK!
Again, sorry to be so vulgar. I'm not usually this vulgar, but my wife's adultery has produced some rather undesirable traits in me that I'm not proud of--my increasing vulgarity being one. That being said, you need to realize that this is truly what happened. Again, I'm not trying to be mean or make it hurt worse. But you need to own up to the fact that it happened before you seriously get hurt any more than you already have. You want truth. There it is.
Frankly, nothing she has told you has been the truth. I've read this whole thread, and there is nothing in it whatsoever to make me believe she is being honest with you. That's why I say that a lie detector is pointless. A test is not going to somehow make her remorseful or tell you everything. It might catch them in another lie, but its not going to magically produce honesty out of her. And don't forget, you can easily fool lie detector tests. However, the lie detector tests should be a periodic part of the R as a part of HER accountability, to keep her story straight (which she won't be able to).
Your gut instinct (as well as this site) are the best thing you've got. If it doesn't add up, it doesn't add up. My friend, it doesn't add up. As others have mentioned, she is practicing TT, which my wife is practicing with me. At least I have come to the realization that my wife is a lying bitch and has no intention of ever telling me the truth. Do I still love her? Yes. I think we all still love our xWSes, but it's not ever the same. Will I ever get fooled again? No. Would I ever get back together with her? Highly doubtful. Don't rule it out friend, but do not make it a priority right now.
And to be honest, you need to get to the point all of us are at, where we just don't give a flying fuck anymore at what they say. Actions are everything. And to some degree, at judgement day, she'll have to answer for what's she's done, and that's enough for me. I've come to accept that she's incapable of telling me the truth. So, I don't ask for it. It's up to *them* to prove us different.
And as for the images in your head, there is something that I do that works. I think about my way forward. You can't do that if you're stuck in the past. And that is exactly where you're at. She will never be the person she was before the A. And all the sick little details about how many times, where, how, protected, unprotected, etc, only further demoralize your mind and fill your mind with pictures you don't need to have, and frankly, make it harder to recover. See examples above. Think of what YOU are going to do for YOURSELF.
Examples: Is there a side hobby you've always wanted to do? Want to switch jobs? Ever wanted to start up a new business? Dream my friend. Dream. The reality is you have complete control over your mind, not her. She is not a witch able to control your thoughts and dreams. You have that. And by focusing on this stuff, you are allowing her to destroy you along with her. And as long as you are physically around her, you will succomb.
But again, learn to dream my friend about the things you've always wanted to do, and go do them. Put it into action. What you may not realize is that she may be giving you a gift. Take it and go. Accept the reality that R may or may not be a possibility. It is way too early to tell. But if science has shown us anything is that MOST people, like 999/1000 are NOT capable of true, lasting change. We all want to believe that our xWSes are that 1/1000, but friend that is just not backed by logic.
Again, sorry for being vulgar and no intentions of making you hurt anymore, and sorry if I did.
Good luck. *WE* are here for you.
[This message edited by la433 at 10:49 AM, May 10th (Friday)]
"Listen to me chumps -- hope is not your friend. You need to bludgeon hope with a fencepost and begin to operate with total lucidity."
Sorry, dude, it's true.