Had my ws just received a bj or had he just had intercourse, it would still be horrible but him going down on her..I agree with a previous poster, that was for HER and that PISSES ME OFF!!
Just a different take on this....sometimes the "motive" may not be selflessly giving pleasure to the OW....it may be more that they wanted to be SEEN by the OW as selfless, or skilled in bed, etc.
That's how I think about the fact that my H did it with his APs. His A's and everything he did in them - the money, the sex, the time spent - were all about making HIMSELF feel good, ultimately. Not about "giving" to her.
I have no idea how someone could take the word of their WS about what activities they engaged in.
This whole thing is horrific to me.
My WH told me conflicting versions of what he did & didn't do in bed with OW. I think he was so flattered that a woman so much younger was pursuing him ( when all of the men at work were drooling after her, so he says), that I think he was trying to impress her.
So I am just going to assume that they did every physical thing possible.
And it is all so intimate.
And do I want to continue on with someone who was that intimate with another woman while he was married to me, & obviously he couldn't have cared less what it would do to me to know about it.
[This message edited by Dark Inertia at 9:51 PM, May 4th (Saturday)]
I think betrayeds like to believe there is a line their wayward wouldn't cross. Something that is just for them or that their spouse just wouldn't do. I think it's somehow comforting. I also think it's our little delusion. There isn't really much a wayward won't do when they are in the fog and fantasy.
Like others here I feel that oral is a much more personal thing. My WH apparently thought it was not as personal as he claimed that it was "only" a BJ. But cheating is cheating. I was just as crushed when I found out he had flirted all night with a stranger at a work function at a bar, then kissed her at the end, years before he ever had sex outside marriage. To me that was cheating. It didn't have to be sex. It was doing something that was supposed to be just us with someone else.
2 Ddays and lots of TT
Scars remind us where we've been. They don't have to dictate where we're going. (Criminal Minds)
I saw him, I could not unsee him. -StrongButBroken
I generally don't respond to posts about this as I rarely think it is relevant. Sexual intimacy is what it is - any kind. However I thought you might enjoy a smile at the OW's expense.
It is important to note that I was about 6 months out from dday at this time so perhaps my response would have been different if I had JFO.
I asked FWH if his OWs had ever done oral on him.
Him: Yes, OW3 did it most of the time
Me: What do you mean?
Him: When I went to visit we would lie in bed talking for a while. After a time she would say "Well there are better things I could be doing with my mouth" and get to work.
Me: How often did she say this?
Him: Every time.
Me: EVERY time??????
Me: Hysterical laughing. I couldn't stop. I just kept laughing. (I found it SO corny. Not just that she said it but that she said the same thing each time).
Him: Looking both puzzled and a little offended. What's so funny?
Me: I'm sorry. I just assumed she would have had a more extensive repertoire. More hysterical laughing.
I then asked him if he did it often with her.
Him: No, only a couple of times.
Me: Why only a couple of times?
Him: Because I didn't like the taste of her.
Me: Looking away to have a private smile. Oh I see. (Thinking: Yes. Sadly you didn't know she was screwing another AP at the time. Perhaps he had been to visit shortly before you visited her those times)
After dday I noticed FWH referring often to the fact that his member was a little on the small side and had a bend in it. I could never remember him saying anything about this in all the 28 years we had been married. Me, I had never noticed, cared or commented on either. (Well we all know I am challenged in the observation department otherwise I would have picked up on his A activities earlier).
I was tempted to say Well I guess OW3 had lots of opportunities to do a detailed inspection..
I bit my tongue in the interests of R but have a little smile to myself each time he says it.
Be kind to yourselves people.
Be gentle with yourselves.
This shit can really screw with your head. (Oops - double entendre perhaps! )
What the deviants got up to together hurts. I know it does. But the focus should be on the deceit and the betrayal. Like many of you, in the early days I desperately wanted the details. But I think most on SI would agree that whether she liked to stand on her head when he did her, hang from the rafters, or do it to him with or without her false teeth in.....who cares?????!!!
To me it is a bit like asking "Which is worse - a PA, EA, LTA, OC, Muliple As, Muliple LTAs, Same sex partner(s), double betrayal etc?"
They all suck!!!!
Dumbfuckery is dumbfuckery
[This message edited by Laura28 at 10:27 PM, May 4th (Saturday)]
I wasn't one who demanded details, though... but yeah, in the whole scope of sex, the three things that seem most intimate to me are kissing, oral and just the emotional part of the A. I found the EAs a lot harder to bounce back from than the PA(s?). If I'd had confirmation of oral, I probably would have walked sooner than I did (which was years, anyway ).
Unfortunately for him, as much as he loves oral, he may never get it from me again. I have tried, but it is tremendously trigger. Maybe with time it will get better, but for now he is going to have to do without. Consequences.
***IMO*** I wouldn't believe that a physical affair took place without oral sex.
I guess it could happen but doubtful in my book.
***IMO*** I agree. In my personal experiences, this is almost always part of the foreplay.. But any time people are intimate, plenty of body parts touch other body parts, pick your poison..
Ditto on the condom thing too as I think the percentage of people who use them for oral is very slim And as a women, am I really gonna get out some saran wrap to protect myself?
But my biggest opinion on this whole discussion really is that it's usually not the sex that's the dealbreaker, it's the lies, lies and more lies. Sometimes I think I could have gotten over the sex, whatever sex, but the lies, deceit and betrayal and how I was treated after I found out was what broke the marriage for good..
Lots of hugs and support to all the betrayed people on this site. No matter what form of infidelity it was, it all sucks BIG TIME, and my heart goes out to everyone dealing with this life-changing bullshit.
Sometimes I see posts that state she/he only performed oral sex on the AP. The premise is that oral is not as bad as sexual intercourse.
Flashback to 1969....a naive 18 year old girl seduced by her boyfriend's bf....to experiment, to get some experience....
So he convinced me to give him bj's....and only bj's...never intercourse because that was sex!
...and this continued for a long, long time....I have racked my brain for the reasons why this horrific betrayal continued, one being that I was punishing my H for not marrying me at age 17 (he supported my parents' insistence on abortion). During this 18 years, I believed that I held the power, the control, the dominance not only during the act, but the "dance" leading up to it...the satisfaction of my superiority over OM. What a fool I was!
And the person I loved was the person I destroyed by my selfish choice.
And what has my deceitful, horrible betrayal done to my H? If you read his posts, you know that I have totally destroyed him, that he is struggling to make sense (???) of 40 years total of lies.
We have been trying desperately to wade through this muck.....seems we're sinking more frequently lately. This morning he told me he was dying inside. But we keep holding on tighter.
I wasn't the woman he thought he had fallen in love with 45 years ago.
And his bf was never his friend at all.
This was a huge double betrayal.
OM is dead (brain tumour @ age 57), so no closure there for my H.
I'm living my karma.
Oral vs genital?
It's infidelity, regardless.
When I first experienced DDay and it began washing over me I began reading. Reading here even before I became a member and reading every book in the library and book stores I could get my hands on.
What stuck with me initially besides the fact that it wasn't my fault was that there would always be people who had worse things happen and not such bad things happen but your experience is yours and that is really the only one that you can speak to when it comes to resolutes like deal breakers.
Any sort of cheating was a dealbreaker for me and he knew that.
He wasn't thinking about that when she kissed him. Or when he took her to the garage and went down on her (to convince her to do more because she was hesitant and married and knew me)
It doesn't matter that he didn't start it
It matters that he didn't stop it
The words they wrote later and his admission to me that the PA made him feel alive at a time in his life when he was suicidal.
I didn't make him feel alive.
Oral hurts, kissing hurts, kind words exchanged hurts, genital hurts, the STD he passed to me while I was pregnant and nursing hurts, my daughter almost dying because of his choice to cheat hurts, the fact that he stopped performing oral on me after his PA with her (I guess hers was made of gold?) hurts
Is mine the worst kind of hurt? no
Is it the best?
Wish he had just divorced me first and then done everything else....and that he had chosen a partner who wasn't married and whose husband wasn't serving bravely overseas at the time (and my exfwh was a veteran himself and he knew better)
I guess at the end of the day
Yes, Oral is more intimate in my opinion but to my exfwh it was just a commodity, something he was good at that he could trade for what he really wanted....
The only shining light for me is that I am not him. I am greatful for that. At least I do not destroy lives just to have an orgasm.
To this day I don't believe him, and probably never will.
But some things I feel I am better off not knowing!
Healing myself is now my top priority.
Mate: "It could've been worse- she just had quick fucks- no loving or lying down"
Me: "I'm not sure the thought of my wife being nailed against a wall helps"
Mate: "I'd rather that than lying down and cuddling- all 3 times were against a wall- no love there"
Me: "the thought of my wife being nailed against a wall isn't helping"
Mate: "But the alternative is sexy love making- she just got rammed drunk"
Me: "Again, the thought of my wife being nailed against a wall is DEFINITELY NOT HELPING!!"
That conversation had me almost in tears!! The point is- I'm acutely aware that I could feel differently if it actually happened.
It's like I said- this time last year I'd have told you I'd have left her if she cheated on me but here I am- staying put.
Multi famam, conscientiam, pauci verentur.
Of course it wasn't when the OM wanted it.
"Affairs are not mistakes, they are a series of deliberate choices." - CrappyLife
I have been able to perform on him - bc its a position of control. But have not let him near me. It seems crazy since we have kissed....what am I supposed to do? Not kiss him again?
Anyway. I don't think I am in any position (no pun intended) to receive - still too vulnerable.
My WH still maintains that for 2.5 years mOW#1 provided him with oral sex and not vaginal sex.
With mOW#2 he says they rolled round the office floor with most of their clothes off - no vaginal sex took place in their 4 month PA it was BJs and petting - and somehow that makes it not so bad??? I don't think so!
He has lied so much I don't know what to believe. All I know is that infidelity of any kind hurts like hell.
[This message edited by avicarswife at 12:34 PM, June 6th (Thursday)]
It doesn't matter. If you get stabbed in the back, it doesn't matter if it goes in at an angle, sideways, or it gets twisted, it's still pain from a knife in the back.
The truth hurts, but I have never seen it cause the pain that lies do.
Oral is very personal.
WH did it all with the OW, it's hard to know that there's nothing that was 'just us.'