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Just Found Out Post Reply     Print Topic    
User Topic: Craziest story I've ever heard, and it's my life........
ironcrosses27
♂ New Member
Member # 39191
Default  Posted: 9:38 AM, May 7th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I know exactly what you mean OK Now, I worry about these future "trances" more than I can possibly express. I really do feel like she had all of the resentment and anger built up inside of her though and this was the explosion of all of it at once. I want to believe that if we just start communicating in a healthy way, we will be closer than we ever were.

And regarding the paternity issue, the affair ended 3/04/13 and she had her last period 4/06/13. She turned up pregnant before her May period and while I will of COURSE be doing DNA (she has expressed that she is absolutely fine with this) just in case she is lying about the timeline, it really doesn't seem likely that it is the OMs baby. Of course she could be lying about when she turned up pregnant, but I really do believe that there was a transformation of sorts inside of her when I discovered the affair.

She told me that she never expected that I loved her enough to stay after being put through so much hell and that when she saw how genuinely I really did love her, a switch flipped in her mind that I really DIDN'T consider her beneath me as she had thought for years. Unhealthy, I know, but still.


Me: 24
WW: 23
DDay: 3/4/13
Married: 12/15/12

Posts: 9 | Registered: May 2013 | From: OKC, OK
ironcrosses27
♂ New Member
Member # 39191
Default  Posted: 9:43 AM, May 7th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

To be completely honest, if I find anything alarming about the pregnant, I really just believe that she may have done it as a result of her wanting to make sure that we stayed together


Me: 24
WW: 23
DDay: 3/4/13
Married: 12/15/12

Posts: 9 | Registered: May 2013 | From: OKC, OK
traveldad
♂ Member
Member # 34047
Default  Posted: 10:22 AM, May 7th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Every story on this forum is crazy, you just never expect this to happen to you. You are doing exactly what most of us have done and question yourself, as to what you may have done wrong. It doesn't even seem like she's trying to pin it on you. In fact her desire to become pregnant by you indicates that she wants to set the trap and keep you attached to her. So just slow down and concentrate on what's wrong with her. It sounds like she has a lot of issues and needs a lot of therapy. I hope that if she is pregnant, that you can save the marriage. Before my wife left me for her last affair, she had two, that had consisted of some very poor sex. She became infatuated with one anyway and was probably pretty close to leaving me for him. Whatever you do, you won't be able to wrap your mind around how she could have done what she did. You won't be able to help yourself from trying to figure it out though. If you want a healthy relationship with her, you're going to have to be proactive about avoiding this type of event. Others have given you good advice on that.


DDay January 2010
Divorced July 2010...broke up 2 families
Contented single dad of 2 grown sons and two daughters.
XW talks to kids about once a year

Posts: 54 | Registered: Nov 2011 | From: Southwest
mainlyinpain
♀ Member
Member # 39134
Default  Posted: 10:34 AM, May 7th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I don't like the part where you seem to take on some blame for this because in the past you weren't the best boyfriend. You have no fault in her decision to cheat. You even say that in the present time it was great between you. Everyone struggles with self-esteem to some degree...how does it help anyone's self-esteem to be a cheater? The admiration may have made her feel good but so good that it outweighed the feeling to be loyal to you? To be a good person and not hurt you? Again and again? I also would suspect that she possibly cheated before because this happened too easily too quickly. You are so young it is heartbreaking to think of you having to go through life with this at the start of your marriage. It will always hurt. Think about a marriage where the person you are with never did this and never would. If you stay you will never have a marriage without cheating at its foundation. Take some time, do a lot of reflection, don't commit to her or yourself. Find our for sure (lie detector) if she cheated before. Keep strong and stay strong.
((hugs to you)) I am so sorry you are hurting.


DD 1 - 7/7/2004
DD 2 - 10/31/2011
DD 3 - 4/30/2013(or continuation?)(Yes)
DD 4 - 9/25/2013
DD 5 - 2/15/2014 (found phone from 2009)

Posts: 496 | Registered: Apr 2013
doesitgetbetter
♀ Member
Member # 18429
Default  Posted: 10:47 AM, May 7th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Just to add some science into the baby thing. I was pregnant with my third child. Had my last period before going to the Dr. in November. So when I went in February, the Dr. was presuming I would only be 8 weeks along (got pregnant in December since I had a period in November).

Much to everyone's surprise, I was 12 weeks pregnant! I had a full on period AFTER I got pregnant and was able to hold onto the fetus.

It's not completely uncommon to have a period after becoming pregnant, so until the Dr. does an ultrasound and gets a gestational age, you can't assume anything at this point.

And lastly, any woman who would skip their BC on purpose to trap a person, or "encourage" them to stay married, is a devious woman who doesn't deserve to be trusted. She's already hinted that the baby will "bring you closer". However, babies generally don't bring people closer, they cause a larger wedge... especially when they are born out of a need to "fix things" rather than just out of love like they should be. VERY manipulative to get pregnant on the sly.


DDay - Dec '07
Me - BS
Him - FWS
Us - Committed
May 18, 2010 - I forgave him fully!
"Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction." Isaiah 48:10

Posts: 3859 | Registered: Feb 2008
ironcrosses27
♂ New Member
Member # 39191
Default  Posted: 10:57 AM, May 7th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks again to everyone for their advice and insight. I guess it is just hard to wrap my mind around us not being together and finding happiness. I have delved and delved into trying to find out if she had cheated before and she is just so extremely adamant that she hadn't. It really is shocking to me how this could have happened so quickly and easily as you stated. I am definitely conscious of the fact that this baby may not be mine and we will most definitely be finding out the estimated date of conception. In all likelihood, I will even insist on having DNA checked while the baby is still in the womb.

She has always been absentminded and I do tend to believe that she really didn't intentionally miss her meds. My god am I really so blinded by love for her that I'm misreading all of these obvious signs??


Me: 24
WW: 23
DDay: 3/4/13
Married: 12/15/12

Posts: 9 | Registered: May 2013 | From: OKC, OK
mainlyinpain
♀ Member
Member # 39134
Default  Posted: 11:16 AM, May 7th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

You are grieving right now. Grieving for the loss of what you had. Your emotions for her are more intense now because of being slammed by this betrayal. Don't be blinded by these intense feelings. You want your security back but that was taken. You will never get back what you had or thought you had. You need some time and perspective...just remember that your wife is a liar so you can't rely on what she says. This will be hard. From experience, don't hang your hat on anything she says and go forward with that. Only go forward with what you know to be certain. From what you have said I believe that she got pregnant on purpose and that shows her continuing to make selfish choices. If you can get her to take a polygraph on this affair and possible past affairs, also throw in a question asking if she got pregnant on purpose. This is the only way you might know for sure and if this knowledge is important to you, you need it to make decisions. I am so sorry that her choices put you in this world of pain. Please take care of yourself and recognize your worth.


DD 1 - 7/7/2004
DD 2 - 10/31/2011
DD 3 - 4/30/2013(or continuation?)(Yes)
DD 4 - 9/25/2013
DD 5 - 2/15/2014 (found phone from 2009)

Posts: 496 | Registered: Apr 2013
seachelle
♀ New Member
Member # 39104
Default  Posted: 11:59 AM, May 7th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Iron, My story is pretty crazy as well. We were married 9 months when my husband started his affair. I'll give you details if you want, but it is a looooong story. I am going to hang on to this marriage with my life. I divorced my first husband because our R did not stick. He was on his best behavior for 6 months and then just decided that wasn't for him. He also wasn't accountable for his actions.
My WH is being totally accountable about everything. He is tortured, doesn't sleep, has night terrors, etc. I have found that total transparency is the only way to proceed. I wish I had your IT capabilities. He has given me all of his passwords, I open every piece of mail that comes in with his name, I check his phone and his emails constantly and he does not blink an eye. I hope you are going to her doctors visits. Stay involved and alert. I am a trusting person...too trusting and at the age of 44 I have learned that if I have questions, I am going to ask them!!! I swear I don't work for these people: Marriage Builders.com is a great website and has worksheets that you and your wife can do together. It has a whole section on infidelity in marriage.
I hear you when you say that people are telling you to run and you are not sure if you are being gullible (sp?) Follow your heart. If you are a person that easily forgives please make sure you do it with all the information you can gather. That is what I am doing. Faults and all I love my husband but this pain is terrible. I know I will heal, be stronger and wiser. (((hugs)))

Posts: 24 | Registered: Apr 2013
Getting to Happy
♀ Member
Member # 35200
Default  Posted: 12:17 PM, May 7th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

She is damaged goods. You are young. Run like the wind!!!

Even if the baby is yours, you will be able to take care of the baby, just ditch her!

Baby or no baby, she has nuked this relationship beyond recognition so soon in the game. You have your whole life ahead of you, do you really want to spend it clocking her???

Please, please, take what you have learned about marriage relationships and cut your losses, let this toxic one go. You will meet a nice honest and true woman to make your wife. And you and your new love will raise this baby (if its yours!)

RUN FORREST RUN!!!


WS him
BS me DD's 26, 25' DS 23
dd1 1-1-10, dd2 Mothers Day 2011, dd3 3-12-12 Hawaii trip with ho-worker...

Never forget what is worth remembering or remember what is best forgotten.
Unknown


Posts: 1140 | Registered: Apr 2012 | From: La La Land
ironcrosses27
♂ New Member
Member # 39191
Default  Posted: 2:01 PM, May 7th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I SERIOUSLY appreciate all of the insight and advice, especially from all of you that have been here before. I really do have such conflicted feelings about everything. Using my best judgment, I really do feel like we have a bright future ahead of us if/when we move past this whole shitshow (pardon the language!). She is in that stage of terrible remorse and really does seem to realize how incredibly disgusting and devastating her actions were. As much as I see how bad this situation is, I still find myself believing that the worst is behind us and that we are going to rise out of this.

At the risk of sounding arrogant, I will tell you all that I have always considered myself very fortunate in the "good catch" category. I'm good looking and stay in shape, my business is thriving and I have always been the romantic type. I absolutely feel like there is another fantastic woman out there who would appreciate all of me to the extent I deserve, but I also think that this whole experience could launch my wife into a place where she can love me beyond anything another woman is capable of. She really has always been so good to me and except the obvious betrayal of the affair, she has been the best friend I've ever had and understands me on an intellectual AND emotional level that I truly never thought possible.

I DO see that her innocence is completely gone and "damaged good" is a term I've found myself throwing around my own mind but I truly want to make it work with her. I guess it IS possible that she is not capable of changing and that this wasn't a huge aberration but I'm having trouble believing that.


Me: 24
WW: 23
DDay: 3/4/13
Married: 12/15/12

Posts: 9 | Registered: May 2013 | From: OKC, OK
Getting to Happy
♀ Member
Member # 35200
Default  Posted: 2:24 PM, May 7th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I don't mean to beat you over the head with this but you are very young, why not start fresh with a true and honest woman?

I absolutely feel like there is another fantastic woman out there who would appreciate all of me to the extent I deserve, ...

YES! Save yourself!

...but I also think that this whole experience could launch my wife into a place where she can love me beyond anything another woman is capable of.

Good Luck with that...

I guess it IS possible that she is not capable of changing and that this wasn't a huge aberration but I'm having trouble believing that.

She has shown you what she really thinks of you. Believe HER!

If you were 20 years down the road and you had 19 years of wedded bliss, children and finances intertwined I would not say RUN. But 3 months into a fresh marriage... well...RUN!!!


WS him
BS me DD's 26, 25' DS 23
dd1 1-1-10, dd2 Mothers Day 2011, dd3 3-12-12 Hawaii trip with ho-worker...

Never forget what is worth remembering or remember what is best forgotten.
Unknown


Posts: 1140 | Registered: Apr 2012 | From: La La Land
doesitgetbetter
♀ Member
Member # 18429
Default  Posted: 3:12 PM, May 7th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

to find out if she had cheated before and she is just so extremely adamant that she hadn't

Sadly, for every 100 BS's that register here, you can likely find 99 that had their WS adamantly say the same thing, and they were still lying.

Listen, I'm all for R, I have R'ed with my H and don't regret it at all. Even I thought I heard it all because my H was so adamant. Turned out that 5 months later, when I found another OW on my own, that THEN I had the entire truth. It took me a long time to get to the bottom of it, and I only believe I have all the truth now because I have dug and dug and dug to the bottom and back up and have not been able to find anything else. I certainly couldn't just trust my H who had lied to me for 5 years and cheated on me for all that time.

It doesn't bode well that she's blaming her actions on this "trance" thing. That's just a really pretty way of blaming things other than herself for her actions. She was not in a trance, she wasn't hypnotized, she took her clothes off and cheated on her own.

And, at just a few months after marriage, for her to be harboring so much resentment and anger for you that she would cheat on you right away.... well, that is also not a very good sign.

Until she can work through those issues, until she can take full responsibility for her cheating, you will always have to watch over her and wonder when it will happen again. If she doesn't get help to get over her issues, it will happen again. Do you really want to have a life with a woman who cheated on you because she was angry at you? Do you have any idea how many times in a "normal" marriage that one spouse is angry at the other? TONS! Will she cheat each time? Not a good outlook.


DDay - Dec '07
Me - BS
Him - FWS
Us - Committed
May 18, 2010 - I forgave him fully!
"Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction." Isaiah 48:10

Posts: 3859 | Registered: Feb 2008
hathnofury
♀ Member
Member # 32550
Default  Posted: 3:58 PM, May 7th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

First off, you are NOT crazy. Every reaction you have had thus far is totally normal. Including the wanting to believe the best in your wife because you love her, and trying to take some of the blame for what happened. It just means you are human, you are healthy, you are genuine, you are normal.

This response was my first reaction to your post too:

She is a young attractive woman, and was willing to risk her safety to go to a hotel room with a complete stranger? Either there is more to this story, or she lacks some serious self awareness... That is very risky behavior.

and this from you also set off my alarm bells:

She told me that she never expected that I loved her enough to stay after being put through so much hell and that when she saw how genuinely I really did love her, a switch flipped in her mind that I really DIDN'T consider her beneath me as she had thought for years. Unhealthy, I know, but still.

I want to state that these are all HUGE red flags. My gut tells me:

She has probably done this before.

She may still be doing it, maybe with this man, maybe others too, all underground.

She is very likely mentally ill (and I mean beyond the depression and the eating disorder) and may or may not be a sex addict. Or possibly was molested or some other factor that has fostered some sort of intimacy disorder in her so there is zero real intimacy in sex for her. This is not something you or she can fix, and may be beyond the expertise of her current IC. She needs serious help to figure out what's broken.

It is possible that she did get pregnant to keep you in the marriage. It is also possible she tried to get pregnant with YOU so she won't get pregnant with others. I so wish I were kidding, but because of her risky behavior and potential for mental illness...it is a very real possibility. Maybe she thinks a baby will fix what's broken in her. IDK. But it won't, proper therapy and possibly meds will.

I am the last person to tell you that you are crazy to stay with her. I won't do that. But I think you need to be more aware of what else may be going on. There is way more to this story, you just don't know what it is yet.

Hugs and strength. I don't envy you. You will get a lot of support here.


BS 43, SAWH 38. M 15years, together 17. Body count in the triple digits. Both in recovery, trying to R.
Three kids under age 11.

Posts: 1484 | Registered: Jun 2011
OK now
♀ Member
Member # 14459
Default  Posted: 4:34 PM, May 7th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Your last post described your wife as your soulmate, best friend, confidant and lover.

I never heard of someone in that close of a relationship, with intertwining souls etc doing what your wife did. Just contacting a stranger and f***ing him with no condom, [risking pregnancy and disease], then going back as often as she could manage over the next week. Is she a submissive, conditioned to submit to male commands from certain domineering individuals? This is really weird.

I'm sorry, you need a different perspective over this betrayal, or I guarantee it will happen again. You may be married for 60 years; Three months in and she cheats, repeatedly. A long way to go with someone who may be a compulsive cheater.

As someone else said, if she did this out of anger I can promise you she will be angry many times over the length of your marriage. If this is the way she deals with being irritated, then you are in for a lot of grief..


Posts: 1748 | Registered: May 2007 | From: NC
homewrecked2011
♀ Member
Member # 34678
Default  Posted: 4:41 PM, May 7th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I won't do that. But I think you need to be more aware of what else may be going on. There is way more to this story, you just don't know what it is yet.

In Alanon, I was taught to get help and not make any major decisions for 6 months. DO NOT LET HER QUIT MC. It is going to get hard for her and for you to face what's wrong with her. You may or may not stay married, BUT a child is already on the way. This is THE only time perhaps you will have the leverage in your child's life to possibly get your wife help, whether you stay w her or not. This is perhaps the only time she will have the possiblitity of getting help. When my WH I attended a couple weeks of counseling, I wish I could have just chilled out and the the MC do her job. He might have really had a chance to work on himself and have a better life. I was pushing him, pushing him, trying to make him "well". These things take time. You do not have to make a decision today, the baby is not yet here.

I am also going to tell you to really look objectively at who she is over the next 6 months. Copy everything you can get your hands on and keep copies at your work (of texts, etc). I would also hire a PI right now to watch her. IF she can't be helped, you want custody of your child.

My WH blames his affair on me, too. But he was going to topless bars 15 years ago when I was pregnant, young and really cute (I previously was a college cheerleader). So I am learning HE is sick.

Also, I do understand the "trance". When I was given anti depressants during post partum depression, my MD told me not to make any decisions, as that is a bad side effect, not being able to think clearly. Always good with money, I suddenly got "trance-like" and didnt pay bills, didn't even care about anything but just zoning most days.

So, to sum it up, really watch her actions, try to keep you heart out of this, and really look into what is going on with her.

I am worried about the "love bombing".. Here is a link to an article someone posted on SI. It really helped me to see that the woman with my H is pretty ill.

http://psychopathyawareness.wordpress.com/2011/11/15/the-psychopaths-hook-love-bombing-sex-and-flattery/ (substitute her for him)

Also, while you are taking a little time to decide what to do, it's interesting that the people who love you the most in your family want you to leave her.. They love you and perhaps see the side to her you can't right now.

[This message edited by homewrecked2011 at 4:42 PM, May 7th (Tuesday)]


me BS 52
him - 46
married 15 years DIVORCED 10 31 12
children - ds15 ds12
d-day 12-19-11
I gave a 24hour ultimatum then went to attorney next day
Divorce filed

Posts: 2202 | Registered: Jan 2012
homewrecked2011
♀ Member
Member # 34678
Default  Posted: 4:53 PM, May 7th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Also, when you have enough posts, please post something in the Investigative section so we know you are there. Alot of us have IT questions and are being driven crazy by the gaslighting of our spouses and we want to prove ourselved NOT crazy. Thanks!


me BS 52
him - 46
married 15 years DIVORCED 10 31 12
children - ds15 ds12
d-day 12-19-11
I gave a 24hour ultimatum then went to attorney next day
Divorce filed

Posts: 2202 | Registered: Jan 2012
redrock
♀ Member
Member # 21538
Default  Posted: 6:51 PM, May 7th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

(((ironcrosses27)))

So your best friend and soulmate has a problem with gambling, bulimia, depression, immaturity and ascribes her infidelity to being in a 'trance'?

That is a lot to deal with. Please know.. that going forward, she has a lot of work to do. A LOT. If only it were as easy as flipping a switch. We grow up and develop patterns of behaviors over a lifetime. Stepping out of her self loathing, need for attention and filling herself up with anything available is going to take time and effort to fix. Do both of you a favor and face that truth now. There is no shortcut. And the preganancy is a veiled attempt at that every thing. Children don't fix relationships.

She is not a good wife, friend or soon to be mother right now. Only she can change that. Just as only you can change your issues.

I really just believe that she may have done it as a result of her wanting to make sure that we stayed together

I agree. But to be fair you participated fully in the taking of the chances.

So now you have to deal with all of your individual person stuff, your marriage stuff and soon to be parent stuff with the added problem of not being entirely sure of paternity.

That is a whole hell of a lot to deal with in a new marriage. You can't love each other out of it. You can't immerse yourselves in the wonders of growing your family to avoid it. I can see a caretaker vibe in you and you may want to take a deep look into that.

Face it. Hold her accountable. Set boundaries for and your requirements to R.

I am so sorry you are going through this but you have found a great resource for your healing and growth.



I don't respect anyone that can't spell a word more than one way:)

Posts: 3156 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: Michigan
traveldad
♂ Member
Member # 34047
Default  Posted: 7:04 PM, May 7th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Don't be hard on yourself for being guilty of blind love. We're supposed to love our spouses like that. You continue to be too hard on yourself. She has the problem. All of us giving advice can only call on our experiences for advice. We can warn you of pitfalls, etc., but you probably know her better than any of us. It's too bad a child is involved or I would say run too. I have to say though that I know of one situation where a young spouse like you, cheated early in the marriage, humbled themselves and got good counseling and is this day a very good husband and father. Just try to use your brains more than your heart. Sex is rarely the reason women cheat. My ex cheated with out of shape, losers in life. Like you, I'm a hard working guy, who keeps himself in shape. It never makes any sense. BTW, I never saw a fault in her until our divorce. Now I realize she walks like a man and sits like a man. Grosses me our now.

[This message edited by traveldad at 7:05 PM, May 7th (Tuesday)]


DDay January 2010
Divorced July 2010...broke up 2 families
Contented single dad of 2 grown sons and two daughters.
XW talks to kids about once a year

Posts: 54 | Registered: Nov 2011 | From: Southwest
willowiris
♀ Member
Member # 5372
Default  Posted: 7:29 PM, May 7th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

She told me that the sex was absolutely terrible and even showed me a picture of his "stuff" so emphasize that it was not SEX she was after.

First off, sex is not always about genitals. It makes no difference whether she cheated with someone with limited "junk." or stallion "junk." Junk is junk is junk.

I know it might be discouraging to come here and be told to get divorced, but I am going to add myself to that pile. I would have divorced my ex IMMEDIATELY after finding out he cheated had I not had 3 children.

OK, sorry, edited because I just read the part that she is pregnant. I would start with some hard core counseling. if the baby is yours and you want to rebuild the marriage, she needs to own up and FIX whatever made her do that.

I'm so sorry you are here, and sorry you must be hurting. It is so difficult and awful.

If you decide against divorce, I would seriously look into some kind of counseling for your wife and your marriage.

[This message edited by willowiris at 7:32 PM, May 7th (Tuesday)]


D-day 09/2004
Filed for divorce 9/2006

We accept the love we think we deserve. "The Perks of Being a Wallflower."


Posts: 12326 | Registered: Sep 2004 | From: Margaritaville
impastit
♂ Member
Member # 28951
Default  Posted: 7:51 PM, May 7th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I would do a few things.

lie detector test

check backpage and craigslist as far back as you can possibly go to make sure she wasn't advertising as a massage therapist that is in the business of offering the happy ending. other cell numbers can facilitate this. Pictures are not always going to be there.

Sorry to have put this in there, but i felt it needed to be said. It's more common with young girls than you may know.

After having gone through what I went through with XWW I must say nothing is off the table.


"Get over it." Classic. Classic sociopath!

DDay 4/6/10 Filed DDay, smelled it coming, again
She moved to her happy place 5/2/10
D final 11/18/10
Thank God I got the dog.


Posts: 569 | Registered: Jul 2010
Topic Posts: 47
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