Defiled, does that shit really work? I am willing to give it a try.
[This message edited by Later at 1:44 PM, June 7th (Friday)]
Side note- I ran across this email i shot to my WW's POSER a few months ago. Thought I would share-
You know from time to time my mind wanders and I think about you and your family. Obviously your actions have taken a large toll on mine as WW and I deal with what you two did.
As a man- I fail to grasp how you could piss on your wife and children the way you did. I am particularly saddened for your boys for having to live in the wake of your shit decisions and grow up without a real example of a man in their life. I don't know OMW, but she seems like a good woman. She certainly deserved better. How you could continue your affair with my wife before, during and after the birth of your youngest son is so beyond my comprehension.
Maybe one day you will come to understand all of the repercussions of your actions. But I would guess not. I do believe there is a special place in hell for people like you that use and destroy the ones they should be defending.
I hope to God our paths never cross. _______________________
I should not have sent it, but it kinda felt good.
My wife was hurting so bad earlier in the week that she had physical chest pains. Her IC helped her with a meditation exercise, and she has felt progressively better as the week as gone along. But hitting rock bottom was hard for her. She really came to terms with the betrayal and the cost of her actions to the family.
I think the 180 is a gift that we give ourselves and our wayward spouses. It keeps us sane and helps clarify what's at stake for the waywards. It helps them get to rock bottom and to true remorse, which is the starting point for healing. My wife's breakdown came on Monday night, when she was in the bathroom and found that she literally could not stand the sight of herself in the mirror. Every time she tried she ended up putting her face in the sink, crying her eyes out. I often wondered how she looked at herself in the mirror during the affair, and in the months afterwards. I think WWs, when in the wayward mindset, manage to keep themselves a step ahead of the guilt and pain. Until it catches up to them, I don't know if true R is possible.
ETA: And yeah, what I just posted about the 180 isn't anything that hundreds on this site haven't experienced first hand, there's a reason it's in the Healing Library after all. But I had my Ah Hah! moment earlier this week, and wanted to share. This stuff really works. Excessive loving, and excessive raging doesn't work. Hope it helps somebody.
[This message edited by Sal1995 at 2:39 PM, June 7th (Friday)]
does that shit really work? I am willing to give it a try.
Mister rabbit says, "A moment of realization is worth a thousand prayers."
If it made you feel good, that's good enough. Who knows what the POSOM thinks...and who cares, anyway?
Im not doing any spartans or mudders....
I did the Darby Queen at Fort Benning so many times that I get a free pass for life
Hard to add much to Neo's post. I will say you do have to put the gun down a bit. For you mostly, but also for her. You can't expect her to act a certain way (open up, etc) if every time she does it you clobber her. Think of her as Pavlov's Dog. Positive reinforcement for the bahaviors you want. Ignore all others. That's where the 180 comes into play.
Btw your letter is awesome
Want to write one for a piece of shit doctor who just divorced his wife and has no consideration for my family.
I met him prior to the A on Thanksgiving at a friends house with my 2 boys and WW. Didn't know he would bang her on Dec 8th.
How's that for you. Knew we were a family and disregarded it. And he's a supposed professional. If I ever see him it will come to blows. I'm restraining myself.
[This message edited by Betrayed444 at 2:46 PM, June 7th (Friday)]
I often wondered how she looked at herself in the mirror during the affair, and in the months afterwards.
My W has the same problem with mirrors. She also cannot look me in the eye for anything longer than a second without crying. While it helps me a lot to see she hurts too, I feel sorry for her. She did not make my life easier, but she sure as hell made a mess of her own.
The other day she was trying to give DD a lecture about always telling the truth. I came into the room and she had to cut the convo short. Something about me being there really got to her. Like I would roll my eyes and point out that she should practice what she preaches.
Later I found her in our bedroom crying. She told me she felt like a hypocrite, she was so sorry for lying to me and hurting me. For not living up to her own ideals, etc. She was really messed up over it.
It helps me believe she realizes the enormity of her actions. I don't really feel the need to punish her when she punishes herself like that. Karma ? I don't know what to call it. Remorse , I guess.
DS 1, DD 6
Dday 8/31/11. ONS that occurred 3 years earlier. Lied to for 3 years.
I'm newer at this than you and can't say what the next couple of months and years will look like, but it sounds like your wife is stuck for some reason. Maybe this is their penance, but I hope mine can move on after a suitable time. What do you think the issue is with your wife after all this time?
ETA: After reading your post and bio, it looks like you're doing everything right. Hope my post didn't appear to imply otherwise. I was just wondering why she's still beating herself up like this. To me hypocrisy is saying one thing but doing another, not saying something that contradicts the way you once lived your life before you got your act together. If that was the standard, we wouldn't have AA counselors.
[This message edited by Sal1995 at 2:59 PM, June 7th (Friday)]
She told me she felt like a hypocrite, she was so sorry for lying to me and hurting me. For not living up to her own ideals, etc. She was really messed up over it.
glad for you n&d, hope its consistent.
slater, i know what B444 is talking about. Its not necessarily "carrying the gun" but her perception and her demonising you that shes manipulated into the conversation - almost like a pre-emptive strike. Its normal for people to be disappointed in you if you do something wrong; its even normal for people to express anger (in a safe way) when hurt... but to use that to justify further manipulation and abuse (and this is what lying and deceit is) is just plain unhealthy. her opening up is more about her accepting/owning her actions regardless of what the response or perceived response will be. I am not condoning physical abuse though and thats another matter altogether.
I tried positive reinforcement; a fat lot of good it did for me. To my WW it was a free pass to continue lying, gaslight and deceive with the added bonus of "see?, I am not that bad a person, you were the shitty one in our M who led me to have the A" - shut that down before it becomes the accepted narrative of your M. read up in wayward-there you see how former waywards will coach the noobs on how to shut down the negative feedback loops and self talk which allow them to be manipulative. authenticity should be something borne out of your own motivations rather than something dictated by the potential perceived reaction of your spouse.
Historically, I have always held those in the military in high regard, I was proud of you, supported you, looked up to many of you.
That all changed when i found out my wife cheated with someone from the military.
I despised him, and so, I despised you. Just like how these APs often become the target of our misdirected rage, all military personnel became the target of mine.
But the truth is, the armed forces didn't make him who he is, he did. He was a POSER before the military, and a POSER he remains.
All of the recent references on this thread has helped me tremendously in squashing this clearly undeserved prejudice that I have placed on the good, devoted members of this population.
So, THANK YOU, for your participation here, your service to our country, and your inadvertent role in my own healing.
No worries man. My W had depression and that had to be dealt with before anything else could be (She told her IC she wanted to die and her IC had me in for a joint session to ask me to "back off," so she could have time to work through that). I took the time to work my own stuff out. It was a necessary period of time for me to detach. Only recently have I been able to discuss some things with her. I am re-attaching to my M, slowly.
She has remorse and despite the progress she has made it still hits her sometimes. It seems to come out of nowhere for both of us. It seems to be the nature of the beast.
The mirror things makes me wonder too, but she has a good IC and seems to be getting better bit by bit. she no longer throws up when we talk about the A. It isn't perfect, but nothing in this crap really is.
Neo- I have had remorse for awhile. It was my reluctance to see it or believe it that keep me from moving forward sooner. At this point trust is a bigger issue for me. Maybe forgiveness some day. Yeah I know it is for me, but it doesn't feel organic just yet.
authenticity should be something borne out of your own motivations rather than something dictated by the potential perceived reaction of your spouse
Wow does this describe the "moment of clarity" I had when I finally decided to D. It also speaks to the different levels and kinds of remorse.
It's hard to speak about the problems inherent in trying to R when you WW seems remorseful. Particularly when there are so many Menz on here with unremorseful ones.
What made my R so tricky is when I realized I'd been playing checkers while she's been playing chess all these years. When I realized the self-protection and the PA bullshit wasn't being conquered or dealt with, it was simply being taken to another level.
Thank you for that Noescape. Truly
Thanks mate. I understand where you are coming from. My wife's POSER was military - she even once argued with me that he wasn't like my opinion of him because he was in the Guard and a leader. She didn't know his rank, but early 40's and Guard I figure he was probably a senior NCO. He was ex-Army, did EOD work with Special Forces. He used the uniform to add credibility that he didn't deserve - he wore the mantle of the honor, loyalty, dedication, sacrifice, and honesty of those who earned it without ever having to have those qualities himself. He used it to prey on people that trusted the uniform. My son just finished his first year of MCJROTC - and I hated the first time I saw him put his uniform on. It was a huge trigger. But he finished this year as distinguished cadet of the year, and is working his ass off to get into Annapolis. He he doesn't want to wear the uniform because of what it does for him, he wears it for what he wants to give the uniform. He'll make a good officer one day.
Oh, and tag line contest starting in F&G in 3...2...1
BTW, Wonderboy really is a good looking son of a bitch. Yeah, I'll regret that in the morning
I really didn't like that about myself for quite awhile.
Hearing from all the fine gentlemen around here really made the difference.
FYI my little bro (hmmm, he's 6 '1) is a green beret, and yup...a bs. He divorced his wayward and still raises her son. Poor kid got abandoned by his biological dad, biological mom..but my bro steps up. He is an excellent man.
"I don't understand the world today I don't understand what she needs I gave her everything she threw it all away" tom petty
I love my brother, but I'm not proud of that behavior. He justified it by saying that she told him the marriage was done. Which is probably what 90% of them say. He should have asked for a copy of the divorce petition. Of course, the wayward and her BS have since reconciled, so he's just an x-AP for all time.
Your brother sounds like a hell of a good man, in many ways. It's his former WW's loss.
ETA; Tred and wonderboy - get a room.
[This message edited by Sal1995 at 7:59 PM, June 7th (Friday)]
What will I gain from knowing ?
Back to your question - of course knowing the details causes triggers. However, for some of us, not knowing the details causes triggers. Affairs cause triggers - either real or imagined. I decided to pick my poison because I have a very healthy imagination and go with the truth triggers over the imagination triggers. That's just how I looked at it. Besides, it meant a lot to me that my wife would be completely honest with me (not sure she has, but she has told me enough shit I wouldn't of found out). After they tell you some truths, you may go off the rails a bit, but hopefully she will realize that it is actually progress. By the time I heard some of the worst details I was about triggered out - you can only take so much then the circuit just crowbars out of self protection.
It all depends on what you imagine you can handle, and your DNA. I never thought I could break - I was wrong. Gambled and lost. Now I'm working my way back slowly. But that's the path I chose, because I'm sure that if I hadn't gotten all the truth, it would have slowly eroded my marriage over the years, and that breaking point would be 10 years from now after many years of doubts and bitterness. Wondering. Asking. That isn't me. There isn't a right answer, and most get it wrong anyways.