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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: Betrayed Men - Part 10
Sal1995
♂ Member
Member # 39099
Default  Posted: 9:20 AM, June 11th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

It's time to grow the fuck up and communicate like an adult. We can't afford another A that is the product of miscommunication.

Later makes a good point, Thinking. She's communicating in an immature, passive-aggressive way. My wife is good at that.

Maybe your response to that last text should have been: "OK, sleep tight." Speak a language she understands.

Defiled, I'll take you up on the crazy MIL challenge. I have one that is very religious. Crosses and pictures of Jesus all over her house. Church multiple times a week. Which is great, except for the fact that she's dishonest, sexually immoral with multiple divorces, failed relationships, and a former OW. She's also financially irresponsible (2 Bankruptcies in less than 10 years, not bad luck but poor management), and she stirs up strife in her family like you wouldn't believe. And loathes men, at least in non-sexual ways. But hey, that's nothing that the occasional confession before the parish priest can't remedy.

Sheesh, maybe I should go a little easier on my wife. She never had a chance at normal now that I think about it.


Me-45
WW-42
DDay 2/17/13, 10 month PA/EA
Final NC late Feb. '13
M - 18 years, together 19+
4 children

Reconciled


Posts: 1028 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Texas
Betrayed444
♂ Member
Member # 38389
Default  Posted: 9:28 AM, June 11th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Defiled, I'll take you up on the crazy MIL challenge

My MIL is dead
When I started dating her daughter she said
"Good luck"
Should have ran

On a side note
Before marriage whenever WW wanted to do anything I didn't care
She wanted to go to a motorcycle rally with some guys. I was like knock yourself out. She would never go. She wanted to go to the club I said no problem. You don't need my permission, just don't give me grief when I do it.
One time I was on my way back from Ft Sill , OK. Had my military uniform and Round brown hat on. It was hot, 110 degrees. My boots and BDU's were white with salt because my sweat was drying too fast. WW complained her ex BF was harassing her. I picked her up. Banged on his door pointed a knife hand at his face, the rim of my hat on his forehead. It left a red mark and I chewed him out with my hoarse voice up one side and down the other( I had been screaming at 240 privates earlier)
His mom came outside, I said ma'am this doesn't concern you do an about face and move out back into your house.
He was scared. Told him NC ever. Or I'll be back. Almost dropped him for push ups. Sex was relentless after that.

[This message edited by Betrayed444 at 9:39 AM, June 11th (Tuesday)]


Posts: 494 | Registered: Feb 2013
thinkingclear
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Member # 38884
Default  Posted: 9:57 AM, June 11th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks for the replies. As usual I agree with it all. She has passive-agressive down to a science. It's only been in the last few months that things even started to make sense to me. I can see her flaws for what they are. Hard to understand how I missed them or just accepted them in the past. Just seemed like the grown-up thing to do. No one is perfect and on the whole she seemed worth it. The psudeo-180 has helped me a ton. I'm trying hard not to play her games, but she intermingles them into everything so it is minefield. It is like being married to a teenager.

I have been focusing on me. I am finally happy with me and have accepted my unfortunate circumstance. I think it is unlikely she is going to make the cut. My only motivation to keep going is my 3 year old son. He means the world to me and to only get to spend half of my time with him I fear will cause him some serious issues. He didn't pick his mom, I did. It isn't worth it long term I know. But it is enough motivation to wait it out to see if something emerges that I feel can grow into something I can live with. Right now it isn't even close. Time will tell.

So, my response last night was:

Night?!?

And her response just a few minutes ago blew past all of that drama as if it never happened. Rug-sweeping along with passive-aggressiveness is a way of life for her it seems.

Her:

Have a great day we are off love u


BS - Me
WW - Her
10 month EA/PA

Posts: 211 | Registered: Apr 2013
Betrayed444
♂ Member
Member # 38389
Default  Posted: 10:19 AM, June 11th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

TC
Many WW's are the same and I think I've gained some insight into their game. The WW blew up the board so they need to know what the new landscape looks like.
For a long time they figured out how to lie, deceive, and manipulate you. They owned you. You became a domesticated doormat. Nothing wrong with being domestic. You worked hard and took care of your family. But now your all over the map.
They are sappers in the wire. They need to figure out how to put you back to sleep.
In the Army we conducted what was called a probing for fire recon. Basically we had a map of the "suspected" enemy position but no intel and no idea where their heavy weapons were. We would go out by teams and approach these positions until they opened fire. We would withdraw but now we have info on where their M 249 b's were, their 50 cals, etc. repeated often enough from different angles and the map would be filled out. From this intel we can decipher where there may be a weakness and expose possible avenues to approach for an assault.
Mind you , WW's aren't this intelligent but you get the idea. They will probe you until they find the button or boundary then will retreat and act like they never tested you.... Until the next test. Until they figure you out. Right now your foreign and unpredictable. That's a good way to be.
My WW just texted she loves me.
I don't answer now until at least 3 texts are sent. I don't live on an electronic leash and I noticed that she would text or call OM relentlessly , like 10 times, before he would respond. That used to be my game. She's a chaser, they all are. Leave her texts alone. It will freak her out. She'll try harder. You'll get attitude but shell probably go down on you. Most importantly you won't be playing her game.
Btw KABOBS?!?!
My god man go out and eat fuckin steak. Drink a good Vodka. Live it up. Be totally unavailable. Don't stay in your cage. Without being too obvious let her know your having a good time.
She's begging for it. Be unpredictable. She'll get mad, that's a game, so what. Play it off. Be unaffected. Spoil yourself bro.

[This message edited by Betrayed444 at 10:29 AM, June 11th (Tuesday)]


Posts: 494 | Registered: Feb 2013
jjct
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Member # 17484
Default  Posted: 10:28 AM, June 11th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I tried to read her the definition of TR yesterday and she got defiant.

TR = True Remorse?
As in the 4 "pillars of R(econciliation)"?

Remorse
Transparency
Honesty
NC

Defiant? heh.
When I sat her down at a public park and explained those 4 things, mine ramped up to screaming abuse.

I drove away while she was in mid-throat.
It was one of those incremental images I used to detach.
Later, when my eyes were wider & I could see the manipulation coming from a mile away, my biggest problem was not laughing in her face.
1. Because I didn't want to let her know I was on to her game, and
2. It protected me from further histrionics.

Srsly. I cultivated slack-jawed dullness around her. Very similar to the Basic Training wisdom.
Don't appear.


Posts: 6012 | Registered: Dec 2007 | From: texas
Betrayed444
♂ Member
Member # 38389
Default  Posted: 10:39 AM, June 11th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

JJ
I meant TT but same thing.
It's a game to them. They figure if they blow up it is akin to us being bitten and well stop.
They don't understand the brevity of their situation.
She's like a 16 year old

Posts: 494 | Registered: Feb 2013
jjct
♂ Member
Member # 17484
Default  Posted: 10:43 AM, June 11th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Mine was 13.

Strong post at the end of the last page, 444.
Loved it.
It's not about disrespecting her - it's about respecting yourself.
Beautiful.


Posts: 6012 | Registered: Dec 2007 | From: texas
MC_Jack
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Member # 35016
Default  Posted: 10:51 AM, June 11th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hey all,

Wow, this thread has taken off over the last several days - so many good things to think about. Thanks to all.

It's only been in the last few months that things even started to make sense to me. I can see her flaws for what they are. Hard to understand how I missed them or just accepted them in the past.

^^^ It's a painful realization. I do now understand my whys for accepting a suboptimal M. My own FOO. The realization is only the first step. The heavy lifting is fixing me.

That article that Later or noescape posted about avoidance vs. ambivalence personality types: home run article. Provided a compelling explanation as to how one could be emotionally 'unfaithful' to the M for the whole M. While my WW is avoidant big time, I am a textbook ambivalent type. I have always had one foot out of the M for the whole 19 years in a way. My first reaction post d-day was to blame myself for her affair, because I knew rationally that I treated her in ways described by that article. See, I was looking at it like I was a bad H, and she did what she did because she was made vulnerable (by me). The next phase of my understanding was equally unhealthy in a way, which was to go to the opposite extreme: my WW is broken and f*cked up and my M was good (good enough, I was going BH revisionism of the M, making it better than it was). I am now in a healthier phase where I see the A separate from the M. The A is both a signifier and a consequence of screwed up thinking. The M was a victim of that same screwed up thinking as was I. The M was also a victim of my screwed up thinking.

Which leads me to my point I suppose: the whole project, "R" if you want to call it, is a huge project. Bigger than what one can appreciate at first. It is intimidating.

See, my WW is remorseful. She has been a champ in all ways when it comes to the A itself. Willing to talk about it anytime, transparent, NC, etc. BUT, she might be incapable of fixing herself. Not that she is unwilling, but she is just not capable. There is mental illness throughout her family, and as it is an enmeshed family, it serves as a support system that reinforces all the screwed up thinking behind her share of the direct and collateral damage.

Did someone post something recently about the book/movie "I Am Legend?" It was on my mind this morning in terms of dealing with my wife's emotional issues and how her parents and sisters (for whom we moved here to be close to). Using the story as a thinking point, I see that while I am the healthy one navigating a world of vampires, from the perspective of the vampires, as I am the only one of my kind in the system, I must be the vampire and thus should be eliminated. Don't know if that makes any sense.

BUT, as a place to have therapy (this board), her family really bothers me. I did not have a dad nor much of a family life growing up. I have seen so many times where someone is welcomed into a family upon marriage. Her family from the very start disapproved. They had my WW on a pedestal (making up for all the other kids issues) and I just did not measure up. It is the conditional love based on some bizarre notion of achievement...

Sorry to ramble, just some pain coming out.

Back to my WW, I know you can't fix someone else. I struggle with co-dependency and fear of abandonment. I want to help fix her because I want to be married to a healthy person. We have three kids, one with special needs. I feel I owe it to the family to do everything I can. Where is the line between bringing the horse to water and trying to make it drink?

--Jack

[This message edited by MC_Jack at 10:52 AM, June 11th (Tuesday)]


I am not a marriage counselor. I chose "MC Jack" in the spirit of a handle like "MC Hammer" or Young MC"...there is a lot of 'rapping' here, no? At the time I did not know what MC stood for on this site. Duh.

Posts: 792 | Registered: Mar 2012 | From: West Coast of Hopa-hopa-land
thinkingclear
♂ Member
Member # 38884
Default  Posted: 10:56 AM, June 11th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Betrayed444

Good stuff as always. Yeah I can see things fairly clearly now for what they are, but it is still so damn hard not to stay "invested" in it all. I love the military analogies. They treat it like a war, don't they.

I have let go of the outcome. I know I could do better. I make a great income (sorry but I am a doc), successful, in great shape (have been lifting weights 4-5/week for 2 years) and I know it wouldn't be hard to move on if it comes to that.

Btw KABOBS?!?!

I felt like grilling last night. Trying to eat clean. Although tonight I think I am going out for some seafood. She hates seafood so I won't have to listen to any complaints. I'll have to check out the cologne suggestions while I'm out.

On a side note. My WW's OM was a tennis pro too. 26 YO South American in "amazing shape". He came here on scholarship at a nearby Big Ten team. Has a green card. Not even a citizen. Luckily he moved 5 states away after D-day but still fishes for her attention every 3-4 months.


BS - Me
WW - Her
10 month EA/PA

Posts: 211 | Registered: Apr 2013
Betrayed444
♂ Member
Member # 38389
Default  Posted: 11:23 AM, June 11th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

On a side note. My WW's OM was a tennis pro too. 26 YO South American in "amazing shape". He came here on scholarship at a nearby Big Ten team. Has a green card. Not even a citizen. Luckily he moved 5 states away after D-day but still fishes for her attention every 3-4 months.

I hate tennis pros
I had bought WW and the whole family tennis racquets prior to dday. Now I want to spank her with it. Her tennis guy was a slug. He fled the state and we have t heard from him since. She thinks I had another clandestine meeting with him and did something. I said "nope...don't flatter yourself. He wasn't into you, just your panties and apparently even that was enough"
My WW loves seafood. If there is lobster on the menu she won't pass it up.
You KNOW you can do better. Your established, educated, and have an awesome career. Have fun bro
Update:
2nd unanswered text
She said she bought me a treat
Followed by a phone call
I didn't answer
I'm not into games while I'm at work

[This message edited by Betrayed444 at 11:26 AM, June 11th (Tuesday)]


Posts: 494 | Registered: Feb 2013
noescape
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Member # 34888
Default  Posted: 11:23 AM, June 11th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Great stuff, didn't know it could get so lively here.

Most of what you guys say applies to my WW. The same manipulation, PA, emotional unavailability, using the vag as kryptonite, push pull dynamic, no real remorse. Problem is I've never been a hard ass. My dad was but I never wanted to be like him. What's surprising is that WWs opinion of the M was that I was indeed a hard ass, though, as recently as yesterday my sister comments on how I'm such an exception in our community for being not only the sole bread earner in the house (yes, she is SAHM) but also one if the few husbands she's heard of who does domestic chores, helps with the kids and does all the outside chores as well.

Coda much anyone??? No appreciation btw but I guess you all already knew that.

Jj, we need a boot camp on how to nail down the foggy BS they throw at us from time to time. I guess there's about a half dozen of us guys who are still in thr M (for now), not really reconciling because the WW hasn't pulled her head out of her arse and need to shore up on specifics in response to "the shit my wife says".


Posts: 739 | Registered: Feb 2012
Betrayed444
♂ Member
Member # 38389
Default  Posted: 11:34 AM, June 11th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

What's surprising is that WWs opinion of the M was that I was indeed a hard ass, though, as recently as yesterday my sister comments on how I'm such an exception in our community for being not only the sole bread earner in the house (yes, she is SAHM) but also one if the few husbands she's heard of who does domestic chores, helps with the kids and does all the outside chores as well.

I believe this also has a lot to do with it. Low self esteem issues can lead to an A because they can feel like they don't measure up. They are useless while you receive the accolades( not true but the see it that way)
They hate themselves. Your too good for them. Their charade is almost up and you'll eventually see them for what they are. Time to find the next victim who is usually a sub par piece of shit slime ball that fits them a little better. That is who they think they deserve and they want to believe that the OM's positive mirroring is legit. It validates their motivations. They are broken and its all your fault. Why did you have to be so good.

[This message edited by Betrayed444 at 11:36 AM, June 11th (Tuesday)]


Posts: 494 | Registered: Feb 2013
RyeBread
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Member # 37437
Default  Posted: 11:37 AM, June 11th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Later, when my eyes were wider & I could see the manipulation coming from a mile away, my biggest problem was not laughing in her face.

Not intentional but I've done this a couple times. I just couldn't help myself. When I finally "saw the light" it was all I could do to wrap my head around what I was hearing. Some of the crap said is just gold, how can you not chuckle sometimes. I won't demonize her like she does me, but I will laugh in her face when she's being retarded (no offense to those who truly have a mental handicap and are not possesed by satanic slutty succubus on a perpetual pms rollercoaster).

I really do think that maybe if we can take a little humor away from what we get told it might help with the sting a little.


Let him that would move the world first move himself. - Socrates

Posts: 957 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: Midwest
Later
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Member # 39375
Default  Posted: 11:39 AM, June 11th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

to "the shit my wife says".

Not that I am contibuting much here, but this reminds me -- if you have not read "Shit My Dad Says" you really should. Very funny. Guranteed to take you out of a funk.


Posts: 384 | Registered: May 2013
Betrayed444
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Member # 38389
Default  Posted: 11:41 AM, June 11th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

(no offense to those who truly have a mental handicap and are not possesed by satanic slutty succubus on a perpetual pms rollercoaster)

Best line ever!

Btw
2 more voicemails and 3 texts
Apparently I have a treat later
They hate it when we don't reply to them


Posts: 494 | Registered: Feb 2013
RyeBread
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Member # 37437
Default  Posted: 11:42 AM, June 11th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Low self esteem issues can lead to an A because they can feel like they don't measure up

Was just texting my sister about that very topic. STBXWW is very insecure and her selfesteem is highly contingent on what others think and say about her. Her need for validation trumps everything from rational thought to appropriate boundaries to basic childcare. It festers and invades every aspect of their lives and the lives of those who choose to interact with them. And then once you're sucked in and she has her fangs in you you have to scrap and claw your way out to save yourself. Hopefully she doesn't take a chunk out of you in the process. And even if she does you still survived.


Let him that would move the world first move himself. - Socrates

Posts: 957 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: Midwest
thinkingclear
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Member # 38884
Default  Posted: 11:48 AM, June 11th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

MC_Jack

I know you can't fix someone else. I struggle with co-dependency and fear of abandonment. I want to help fix her because I want to be married to a healthy person. We have three kids, one with special needs. I feel I owe it to the family to do everything I can. Where is the line between bringing the horse to water and trying to make it drink?

I know what you mean. I don't consider myself co-dependent but for some reason something made me attach onto my WW after D-day really tightly. Unhealthy. I think it was in part my competitiveness and jealousy kicking in. I wasn't about to lose to a snot-nosed kid. Kinda like my toy was taken from me in the sandbox. It was a broken toy but mine none the less.

I read that article as well. My WW is also Avoidant in every way. My struggle has been similar to yours in that I can recognize the brokenness in my WW that eluded me before. I know it isn't my job and I know I can't change her, but it still just seems to be important for me to try to lead her down the right path. Even if we end up divorced, I still feel that she needs help. IC for her is a must I know. I am just trying to let her discover this need out for herself instead of insisting upon it. True change is only going to come from her desire to change. Like you, I'm not sure she is capable of the change necessary for me to stay in the M. Still I try to lead her to water.


BS - Me
WW - Her
10 month EA/PA

Posts: 211 | Registered: Apr 2013
noescape
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Member # 34888
Default  Posted: 11:55 AM, June 11th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Entitlement, selfishness and unthankfulness. What cut the deepest on one occasion was finding (as much as I did) that while her mother was fighting cancer in another city, W went to stay with her at the hospital, DS was barely a toddler and I had to take care of him. I couldn't take any more time off so I was commuting 200 kms each way every fucking day, being there, being supportive and breaking my back with work and finances and all the support I could give above and beyond (her moms family were less interested), yet she was pining for OM and calling him from beside her mothers death bed. I mean wtf??? WTF???? "I didn't need the support as much as I needed the emotional support" WHAT???? And who fucking pays the bills, feeds you and the kid, pays for expensive hotel stays, changes diapers and run ls errands and works full time to boot??? Nice to know you had a 'friend' to call on in your time of need.

I'm learning now to deal better with her selfishness and entitled behaviour but finances, logistics are still too enmeshed for me to make a clean break... Yet.

AND, as recently as last week she had the temerity to call me out for a task I hesitated to do since "you're still my husband, it's your job to do X". Uhh, yeah. And it's not a wife's job to be honest, transparent and show a little remorse/commitment after her adultery???? (After 3 years of MC, IC, reading and learning) ....I guess not.


Posts: 739 | Registered: Feb 2012
nomoreplease
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Member # 32755
Default  Posted: 12:08 PM, June 11th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My MIL is dead
When I started dating her daughter she said
"Good luck"
Should have ran

The day before my wedding my FIL to be told me, ďdonít do it.Ē Even though he sounded serious, I laughed it off because he must be joking, right? A few months later, I found out he was a BH. And now, looking back on it Iím pretty sure he was at least partly serious and he knew my STBXWW was a lot like her mother.

Back to my WW, I know you can't fix someone else. I struggle with co-dependency and fear of abandonment. I want to help fix her because I want to be married to a healthy person.
I was here, too. The longer I tried, the better I was able to identify what I could do, and what I couldnít. I also became better at not responding to her BS. Once she realized she no longer had the power to control me, she filed for D. One way or another, I can still be married to a healthy person, it just won't be the way that I wanted it to happen. Also as a side note, I have since realized that it wasnít so much a fear of abandonment, but a fear of failure.

STBXWW is very insecure and her selfesteem is highly contingent on what others think and say about her. Her need for validation trumps everything from rational thought to appropriate boundaries
I would say the same about my STBXWW.


'one walks away saying "I fought to save God's ideal," and the other must always admit, "I fought to destroy God's ideal!"'

Posts: 343 | Registered: Jul 2011
RyeBread
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Member # 37437
Default  Posted: 12:09 PM, June 11th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Entitlement, selfishness and unthankfulness.

My experience as well. At some point they've created a thumbnail picture of us that trump everything else. The bigger picture gets lost and we are shoved into the enemy catagory.

Best line ever!

Thanks Betrayed444. They are rare but I have them once in a blue moon.


Let him that would move the world first move himself. - Socrates

Posts: 957 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: Midwest
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