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User Topic: Betrayed Men - Part 10
Sal1995
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Member # 39099
Default  Posted: 2:46 PM, May 20th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Much appreciated guys, 2x4s and all. I've been a real dick to her, probably way beyond what any healthy person could tolerate, and healthy she's not. But that's not productive, and like Mike said the cruelty needs to stop. And cruelty in this case is mostly talking about her messed up behavior, but there's been a few instances of ugly name calling. I'm not proud of that.

The problem is, I can't tell if what she is feeling right now is mostly guilt/shame (poor me) or genuine remorse (poor you), but something still doesn't feel right. And until it does, we're going to have issues trying to R.

I've suggested several times that she get involved in SI beyond the occasional lurking, but so far she hasn't taken the plunge. She needs to get worked over by Floridaredman and Aubrie a little. Screwing another man and seeing him in public was easy for her, but owning her issues on this site, in anonymity, is hard. Go figure.

Her words are often right, but I sense something shallow in them at times. If I'm ok, she's ok. If I'm hurting, she gets real sad. Sometimes I feel like I could announce myself cured of this mental affliction and that everything is A-okay from now on, and she'd be just fine with that and sleep like a baby at night with no further distress.


Me-45
WW-42
DDay 2/17/13, 10 month PA/EA
Final NC late Feb. '13
M - 18 years, together 19+
4 children

Reconciled


Posts: 1028 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Texas
Tred
♂ Member
Member # 34086
Default  Posted: 3:13 PM, May 20th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Sal,

The conventional wisdom is that it takes 2-5 years to heal from infidelity. You are three months out, and so is your wife. I don't think the gravity of what she's done has really sunk in yet - if she isn't owning her shit wants to rugsweep the A, then that's not good. But it isn't fatal. My wife was the same way. I got almost a year of TT. I don't know what it was, but she realized that her A fucked our lives up, and I wasn't just going to get over it. I'm still quite a mess 18 months out, and I'll never be the person I was before the A. But she's owning her shit and working hard at it. I'd be gone by now if she wasn't no matter how much I love her - I deserve better. One of the books my wife read was Emotional Infidelity by Neuman. I think it helped her see things and was a sort of wake up call - that, and I didn't relent on anything. I was a real dick to her as well, but sue me, I was pretty devastated. This shit takes time - the only thing that got me through the first year is I promised her that I wouldn't leave for a year, and I don't break my promises. It gave us time to get through the roughest parts. I'm not saying it's what you should do, but your wife has to understand that you don't want to be like this, but unfortunately her fucking another man is the reason you are. I don't see too many spouses that are instantly doing everything right, so it might just take some patience from you for her to work on her issues. But she has to understand that without her doing that, you aren't going to make it. It takes two giving 100% for real R. You can't do it alone.

[This message edited by Tred at 3:14 PM, May 20th (Monday)]


Married: 16 years (14 @JFO)
D-Day: 11/09/11
"Ohhhhh...shut up Tred!" - NOT the official SI motto (DS)

Posts: 3303 | Registered: Dec 2011
Ascendant
♂ Member
Member # 38303
Default  Posted: 3:19 PM, May 20th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

TT happens, but if it carries over 3 months or more - thats continuation of manipulation, disrespect, disregard for the BS.

Just a side comment here...I think this is one of those things where reality in R is usually different than the SI ideal. Because I read a lot on here (in general, anyway) about 'deal-breakers' and 'final disclosure' and 'don't tolerate TT' and all that jazz....but the reality is that we never REALLY know if TT has ended, or if that's just the 'final version' of the A story that our WW have decided upon, you know? I think the general consensus is that nearly all WS TT to varying degrees, and if you choose to R, you probably figure that on some level. Now, I think 'accepting' it is certainly different from it 'being acceptable', you know? I know for me one of the most difficult parts of this whole thing is the balance between demanding full truth/no TT, making it 'OK' to share new details or amend the narrative, while still allowing myself to both BE pissed off and let her SEE that I'm pissed off, without going off the deep end...sometimes I can, sometimes I can't.


“Anyone who has a continuous smile on his face conceals a toughness that is almost frightening.”

Posts: 1604 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Illinois
MC_Jack
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Member # 35016
Default  Posted: 3:30 PM, May 20th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

yep, I hear you:

and she'd be just fine with that and sleep like a baby at night with no further distress.

..and I would add to that the probability that she wouldn't cheat again. Meaning, she got burned and that cheating is not a 'solution'. But never learning to address the crazy shit in between her ears.

It's almost like, for me, that I am asked to love in the most unconditional way possible, a broken person with the emotional maturity of a 12 year old. Almost like a parent-child relationship.

As far as the A goes, it was a degrading deal in all ways for my WW. There were no ponies and rainbows even during its time. But perhaps the lesson my WW learned was that "affairs are terrible and destructive," not that "I am screwed up."

Problem is, that I would like to be married to an emotionally whole and healthy person.

Sigh,

Jack

[This message edited by MC_Jack at 3:36 PM, May 20th (Monday)]


I am not a marriage counselor. I chose "MC Jack" in the spirit of a handle like "MC Hammer" or Young MC"...there is a lot of 'rapping' here, no? At the time I did not know what MC stood for on this site. Duh.

Posts: 792 | Registered: Mar 2012 | From: West Coast of Hopa-hopa-land
Sal1995
♂ Member
Member # 39099
Default  Posted: 3:55 PM, May 20th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Just a side comment here...I think this is one of those things where reality in R is usually different than the SI ideal. Because I read a lot on here (in general, anyway) about 'deal-breakers' and 'final disclosure' and 'don't tolerate TT' and all that jazz....but the reality is that we never REALLY know if TT has ended, or if that's just the 'final version' of the A story that our WW have decided upon, you know?

I agree FacePunched, which is why I put this on my bio:

TT ended (I think) 5-09-13

How does a BS know for sure? We don't, but in my wife's case, she finally admitted some things I'd been asking about for awhile, then some messed up shit that I didn't ask about (her sending crotch and breast pics to the OM). Unless she's going to confess to a gang-bang, donkey show, or her leading role in a porno film, it's hard to know what else could be out there. Knock on wood.

This shit takes time - the only thing that got me through the first year is I promised her that I wouldn't leave for a year, and I don't break my promises.

Tred, I promised my wife 6 months, but I've decided to extend it to a year. Because I'm over halfway to the 6 month mark now, and there's no way in hell I'll have enough clarity in August to make a final decision on anything.

Here's a sampling of what I'm dealing with now: the hotel I stayed at last night is relatively close to some railroad tracks. My wife's AP works for Union-Pacific. I woke up to a train whistle at 3:30 a.m., and in my current state it felt like the OM was taunting me. That was the psychological effect. Didn't get a wink of sleep after that. Earlier today I had to turn off a classic rock song I've always loved - AC/DC's "You Shook Me All Night Long" - because of course, that 33 year old song is all about the OM pounding my WW in bed, right? Never mind that she was 8 years old when the song was released. I could list a hundred songs like that I can't listen to anymore.

She's ruined everyday sounds, music, any movie other than war movies or historical documentaries, and even the freakin' sunlight and blue sky.

Of course I'm irrational. The point is I don't see myself being in a rational state of mind 3 months from now. I'll try your 12 month plan.


Me-45
WW-42
DDay 2/17/13, 10 month PA/EA
Final NC late Feb. '13
M - 18 years, together 19+
4 children

Reconciled


Posts: 1028 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Texas
DefiledRage
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Member # 39292
Default  Posted: 4:22 PM, May 20th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Sal,
hey man I'm right there with you. Looks like I'm only a few weeks behind you, so obviously as far as the future I won't be much help. I will say this I have noticed a distinct change in the way I view my WW recently. After a few months I think that the reality that my anger was going no where started to really set in. I've found myself walking out of the room and just blasting her to myself. Not even just in my mind , but outloud, trick I learned from an old boss to relieve stress. Ya know the whole go outside and scream at the sky thing. Saying things that I know maybe true, but in the long run will not help if there is ever to be a R. One thing I promised myself the night of Dday was that I wanted to make sure my attitude never gave her any ammunition to think thats she's the victim. I will not give her that power. I don't want her thinking that I'm emotionally abusing her then the emotional abuse she has caused me (lets not kid otherselves, an A is the worst form of emotional abuse) is justified, because well look at the way I'm treating her. I didn't deserve to be treated like this, and by hell I'm not going to give her a reason to think that. Shes knows I'm angry, but not sceaming her hair back makes me feel like I have a least a small amount of power over the situation.
Hope it helps to know that you not alone with feeling that way, I'm right there with ya.


Me:35 WW:34 M:13yrs
3 young children
Dday 1 EA 7/8/2010
Dday 2 PA 3/1/2013 same OMM for 4yrs

Mister rabbit says, "A moment of realization is worth a thousand prayers."


Posts: 426 | Registered: May 2013 | From: Two blocks from south shit and west hell
wincing_at_light
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Member # 14393
Default  Posted: 10:11 PM, May 20th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I see how it is. I take a few days off to play New Vegas and you guys go off and get new digs.

Bastards.


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6687 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
wincing_at_light
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Member # 14393
Default  Posted: 10:59 PM, May 20th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I have a WW who is remorseful, who prays for our marriage multiple times a day, confessed her sins to a priest, has actually started reading the Bible, apologized to me (many times) and also to our children, her family and others who found out about the affair, went NC, finally quit the TTs, etc. Basically all you could ask for, given the situation.

Just as an FYI...no, you don't have a remorseful wife. You have a religious wife who thinks she knows the path to baby-Jesus-forgives-me redemption.

Let me be clear here: baby Jesus *does* forgive her. He can and he will. So will grown up Jesus, dead and resurrected.

That's beside the point, honestly.

Read about David and Bethsheba. Read about how after his infidelity, the sword never departed from his house. How his kids died. How his family was in turmoil. How his son raped his daughter and then treated her like a dumb ol' cow once he'd gotten his cock wet.

Why? Because their father had modeled relationship behaviors for them. He taught them how to be users, abusers, adulterers and murderers.

David. The man after God's own heart.

Your wife thinks she's remorseful and that she's got a cherry-blossom lined path to redemption because Jesus took a couple of nails for her.

She hasn't even started to learn what repentance means. If she starts to get a glimpse, she's gonna get to realize that she'll be paying for this mistake in her life, her marriage, and the lives/marriages of her children well into the next generation.

Why? Because dress it up all you want and yammer on about "teaching our kids by our mistakes" and "we'll show them how to overcome hard times with luuuurve", there is a price to pay for destroying the family dynamic. She's taught your kids that it's okay to fuck other people...that you can get Jesus to smooth it over like peanut butter and there are no consequences.

That's what you call a fucking mind worm. Because when their marriages get tough (and they all do), *mom did it and it turned out okay* is going to be lurking in the back of their minds. Mom didn't defend the marriage, she trashed it and left the spouse who loves her to pick up the pieces and hold things together.

That's what she's taught your kids. Doesn't matter what you do...if your spouse loves you, they'll stick it out and pick up the pieces of your fuck ups. Doesn't matter how hard she might try to take it back in the future. The die has been cast.

When that shit starts hitting the fan, then she can talk about her profound remorse. She has one charge as a mother: don't fuck up your kids.

She failed. That's going to have repercussions well into her grandkids' generation -- because her kids are either going to heed the mind worm and fuck up their own relationships, or they're going to react against being an "oathbreaking slut like mom" and introduce the wonderful, liberating curse of legalism into their family dynamics. They're going to be suspicious of their wives/husbands, because if mom can cheat, anyone can.

So now she's got a second generation of *other people's kids* who get to bear the price of her wet vagina. That thing must be gold-lined or something for her to prize it so highly. Somebody ought to paint it or commission a statue.

But that's okay. She's praying and reading her Bible. God will forgive her, especially if she doesn't do it again, right?

And he will. I believe that. But consequences, man. Consequences ripple. They ripple out uncontrollably, and every time you try to pull them back, you just make more ripples.

Besides, what's the narrative in our society for a cheating woman with a faithful husband? Whether there's a God to forgive her or not, can she ever be redeemed? Or is she always just somebody else's broken toy?

You may feel differently. I know that I do. Society isn't so kind, and that's a mind worm, too. She's going to hear the rabid little chitter of that mind worm every time some smiling 22-year-old something in her office talks excitedly about her engagement party. Every time somebody at church sends an invite to their 50th anniversary.

She's the unworthy one. The one whose husband stayed out of grace.

You know about grace, right? Grace is a fucking ten ton weight, let me tell you.

Jesus makes grace look easy. All he had to do was die, and two thousand years later we all (church folks and non-church folks alike) claim it like it's our right that he died to save us. 'Cuz we're worthy due to love. God is love, so there wasn't really any choice. It was part of his plan.

We're entitled to it, hey, yeah?

Grace is a rasp, especially from an equal. You've got to embrace the love and your unworthiness to receive it, or it'll rub you raw. It'll keep you mired in a place of shame.

Why do you think the WS's first response is to tell their BS to go out and even the score? Because the weight and rasp of grace are unbearable. Grace obligates you. Grace makes your choices no longer free and all your own choosing -- because you're hemmed in by grace.

Grace is a fence. No more wandering. No more open country. No more adventures that you might have had, because you had your chance and you fucked it up.

Let me tell you this: three years from now, four years, from your perspective, it'll be like this never happened. Sure, you'll have a bit of a trigger now and then. You'll have to remind yourself that you've chosen to stay with this person, to actively forget the things they've done. That's okay, though. It won't be hard. You'll remember it the same way you still clench up a little when you think of that needle-dicked bully in freshman year PE -- bit of an ouch, but you're not that trembling 14 y.o. kid anymore. You're better, stronger, faster. You've been handed adversity beyond your imagining and overcome it. You are, to quite a movie, a golden god.

She doesn't get the same trajectory. Infidelity in movies will always make her uncomfortable. She'll change the radio station on cheating songs. She'll have to be so constantly aware of the rasp of grace that it'll make her hypervigilant to even the appearance of impropriety, in much the same way that you're hypervigilant now.

Difference is that you've got acute PTSD. Your symptoms will fade -- quicker with a wife who's trying to toe the line even now.

Your wife? She has reaped the whirlwind. She has called out the dogs or war, from now until the last forgetting. On her death bed, she'll remember the war against her grief. This thing that defined her above all things in her life. Her shame, the rasp of grace. If you're still alive, she'll be begging your forgiveness because she's terrified of the dark and the pit.

I've known people at work in the last couple of years who were fucking around on their spouses, some of them leaving to move in with the OP. Know what I think about that?

I don't. Don't care. As long as they do their jobs and buy the coffee when it's their turn, it doesn't mean anything to me. I mean, I'll tell them that they're idiots and it's going to end badly, but that's because I've seen how that story ends, not because I've got a stake in it.

Your wife will never feel that way. She'll always have a stake. If it's a friend whose husband is running around, she'll be right back there in her WS shoes having to make an admission of guilt so she's not hearing heartbreak under false pretenses. There she goes again, being outside the circle of human compassion. Making herself an other. Being unworthy, only at home with the broken and bereft with sob stories just as bad or worse than hers.

That shit, man. It stains. It stains the soul, even after Jesus washes it clean. Just because he doesn't see the stain doesn't mean that everyone else is so color-blind.

That's the price of grace, too. It reminds you of what you've been forgiven for. And every time she outs herself to one of her blubbering girlfriends whose husband is a dog (lke 70% of marriages, so the statistics say), the question she'll hear is "And your husgand stayed? He was able to forgive you?"

He showed you grace?

Grace is power. You always forgive from a position of power. It's the true kernal in that old saw about the one who cares the least in a relationship having the most power. It's not about caring least, it's about being the stronger one.

The one who doesn't fail.

And people will look at you with awe, all of those blubbering women trying to find faith that there are good men out there still. They'll look at her guilt and see God in you. You're the light of glory, while she's just a footnote, an obstacle, the thing that conspired to take you down and give the devil his due. Worse, those women will have a claim on you: a way that they're more like you than she is. Closer to you than she can ever be, because they know the price of faithfulness.

See how that works? That mind worm of shame. She'll tell you years from now how grateful she is that you stayed. How she's grateful for it every day...that you didn't leave when you had every right. And she'll wonder if you're honest when you tell her you're glad you did.

And even that'll hurt, because it's more rays of glory shining from your eyes. More proof that you are so far beyond her, despite all of her praying, confessing, and scripture-reading.

You're only 3 months out. Your rage is going to come. It always does.

Like grace, rage is relentless. Especially when it's righteous.

But take the long view. Five years from now, this'll be a blip on your radar. I realize that seems like forever right now. It flies, man. It flies. You heal in increments so small that you don't even notice them.

Then, one day, you look up and it's like remembering the story of someone else's life. You're free of it.

Right now, it feels like she did the crime, but you're paying for it.

Not true. It just feels that way.

She'll be paying for it from now 'til kingdome come. Especially if she's working her way toward repentance and remorse. It's a funny thing about God. He keeps his promises...and by even making the stupid, idiot, mewling noises she's making right now, she's laying claim to repentance.

She doesn't even know what it means yet, what a weight is grace.

She'll learn. Because if God is anything at all, the least that he is, is faithful.

[This message edited by wincing_at_light at 11:05 PM, May 20th (Monday)]


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6687 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
5454real
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Member # 37455
Default  Posted: 12:13 AM, May 21st (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Evidently the new digs work for you though. Awesome post WAL. Simply awesome.

Question though. Re the kids. Specifically, what do you tell them then? Sounds like they're fucked from the moment she spread her legs.

Why? Because dress it up all you want and yammer on about "teaching our kids by our mistakes" and "we'll show them how to overcome hard times with luuuurve", there is a price to pay for destroying the family dynamic. She's taught your kids that it's okay to fuck other people...that you can get Jesus to smooth it over like peanut butter and there are no consequences.

Lie to them? Divorce? Or the ever popular "Your Mother and I are dealing with some complex issues in our marriage right now?" Show them that there are consequences? I am not naïve enough to think that they'll never figure it out. I'm just wondering what your take is on dealing with the kids.

because her kids are either going to heed the mind worm and fuck up their own relationships, or they're going to react against being an "oathbreaking slut like mom" and introduce the wonderful, liberating curse of legalism into their family dynamics.

I've gotta hope using all those rays of glory, that I'm going to have the chance to provide my kids something better. FWW is repentant/remorseful. She and I know there are going to be adverse consequences for her behaviors that play out in the kids. Whether sooner or later, it's coming. I think that showing them forgiveness from a position of strength is the way to go.

Do you really think those are the only two options for the kids? What would provide a more optimal outcome?


BH 50, WW 41
DS 23(Mine),SD 21,SS 19(Hers),DS 8 Ours, DGS 2 1/2
D=Day #1 5/04EA (Rugswept)
D-Day #2 3/10/12, TT til 3/13/12
Married 10yrs
“I have no love for a friend who loves in words alone.”
― Sophocles, Antigone

Posts: 2068 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: midwest
DefiledRage
♂ Member
Member # 39292
Default  Posted: 12:33 AM, May 21st (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Wow WAL, going to have to sleep on that just to let it sink in a little.
I know the whole repentance facing god thing has my WS petrified. When she brought it up one time I could see the fear in her eyes, I didn't say anything, she wanted me to comfort her, the silence scared her more. To bad I don't see that fear in her eyes when shes talking about me forgiving her. She knows what kind of person I am and is taking it for granted that because I'm still here that eventually I will forgive her. Man that pisses me off.
I don't have your perspective time wise, so for me I'm really battling with the possibility that even if I do stick around for the long haul will things always be a shell of what they were? And if its me on my deathbed looking up at her will I regret it? Will I feel like I wasted my one chance here on earth on a women who would have so little regard for my wellbeing?
We haven't even gotten to the kids finding out thing yet. When that happens she going to realize shes just like her philandering mother that she hates. Need to decide before hand that when that happens if I'm going to talk her off the cliff or not.

[This message edited by DefiledRage at 12:37 AM, May 21st (Tuesday)]


Me:35 WW:34 M:13yrs
3 young children
Dday 1 EA 7/8/2010
Dday 2 PA 3/1/2013 same OMM for 4yrs

Mister rabbit says, "A moment of realization is worth a thousand prayers."


Posts: 426 | Registered: May 2013 | From: Two blocks from south shit and west hell
Betrayed444
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Member # 38389
Default  Posted: 12:55 AM, May 21st (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My God WAL
That is one hell of an inspired post
Amazing. Thank you for taking the time to post that!

Posts: 494 | Registered: Feb 2013
noescape
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Member # 34888
Default  Posted: 2:21 AM, May 21st (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

WAL, thank you... wow

Just as an FYI...no, you don't have a remorseful wife. You have a religious wife who thinks she knows the path to baby-Jesus-forgives-me redemption.

i'd just like to address this from my experience. WW had her first A's now 9 years ago... then she had this religious redemption seeking phase, her words to me soon after DDay "I didnt/dont feel the need to feel remorse for you or seek your forgiveness, I already sought it from God" (dont know/cant see anything changing on that front), yet 5 years later (after the first A's), she ended up affairing again (the earlier ones hadn't been discovered).

"repenting to God" seems to be an easy out, i feel, rather than face the full onslaught of actually looking at oneself and allowing remorse to settle in.

just my experience, yours may differ


Posts: 739 | Registered: Feb 2012
HoldingTogether
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Member # 29429
Default  Posted: 4:34 AM, May 21st (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Wow WAL. Fucking EPIC post.


Me:BH 41
Her:FWW40(Walkinoneggshellz)
2 Beautiful little girls 13&10
Dday: 7/24/10 1yr EA turned 5 monthPA
"I gotta hole in me now... I got a scar I can talk about."

Posts: 338 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: New Life
Mikey56
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Member # 38063
Default  Posted: 6:18 AM, May 21st (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Aces WAL.....pure Aces.

Welcome back ya bastard.


Posts: 108 | Registered: Jan 2013
wincing_at_light
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Member # 14393
Default  Posted: 8:14 AM, May 21st (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Question though. Re the kids. Specifically, what do you tell them then? Sounds like they're fucked from the moment she spread her legs.

I tend to believe that even if the kids don't know, there's still a penalty. Call it a karmic penalty if you want. This, to me, is the logical application of the other truism that it's the affair itself that causes the damage, not telling your spouse about it.

When you make yourself into a liar, being a liar is rarely compartmentalized into one part of your life. You start to lie in other self-protective ways. You stretch the truth, hide the truth, mis-report how much you spent at the department store.

Kids see that, and they learn from it. They learn it's okay to lie to your spouse if it keeps you from getting into trouble. Worse, they learn that the other spouse must be something of an ogre that you *need* to lie to them to keep them in the dark.

It corrupts their perception of both parents: both the one who lies, because that must mean they're weak and powerless (like a kid), and the one to whom the lies are told.

I've gotta hope using all those rays of glory, that I'm going to have the chance to provide my kids something better. FWW is repentant/remorseful. She and I know there are going to be adverse consequences for her behaviors that play out in the kids. Whether sooner or later, it's coming. I think that showing them forgiveness from a position of strength is the way to go.

Right. I don't want to go too far into the niche of determinism. There are consequences for infidelity, and it destroys families -- either obviously via divorce, or through the more inimical sorts of adults-acting-like-children poisons.

I do believe that one parent can make a huge difference, and can teach the kids valuable lessons. I believe that there's a grace that also teaches kids about forgiveness and love. Just because one parent cheated doesn't mean the kids have to be doomed to lives of failure, misery, broken relationships and shit.

Think of it more like being the kid of an alcoholic or an abuser: you don't have to turn into that, and you don't have to get all co-dependent like a typical ACOA...but the deck is certainly stacked against you in either regard, and you're going to have to work harder than the average joe to not be fucked up and make fucked up choices.

So, I tend to believe that one solid parent...and a remorseful wayward who understands their obligation to repairing the damage done to their children and the lessons inadvertently taught to them...can mitigate the harm. Maybe make some proverbial lemonade...but there's still harm, and it's one of those weights the kids are going to have to carry into an adulthood where they have to learn to be healthy, make good choices, and not feed the mind worm mom planted there in the fertile soil of their developing brains.

Remember the movie The Crow? "Mother is the name for God on the lips and hearts of all children."

When God is capricious, unsteady, prone to falling down, and at the mercy of his vaginal juices, it creates a whole fucked up theology that has to be dealt with.

I wonder about boys. I wonder about my own sons -- who have shown no interest whatsoever in dating. They were at that ripe sexual development age when D-day happened, and now at 19 and 15, they seem to have no interest in dating or relationships. What lesson do they learn about marriage and cleaving to your spouse, about "us against the world" when their model is that mom can and will betray you because she's got a moist cvnt today?

How do you teach boys that they can be safe in relationships when mother is the name for God, and God betrays? Or do they just learn the lesson that they've got to be the less invested partner to be secure? Hook up with some chick with serious abandonment issues so they can always be secure as the leaver rather than the left?

I have no idea. It's too early to give any advice on that topic because my research is still ongoing. We'll see where they're at in another decade.

I'm really battling with the possibility that even if I do stick around for the long haul will things always be a shell of what they were? And if its me on my deathbed looking up at her will I regret it?

That's a normal fear. It's the cost/benefit of realizing how many years you've potentially already wasted on a bum horse/disposable partner vs. how many more you might potentially waste if they don't get their head out of their ass.

(And, c'mon, even if the WW does get her head out of her ass, some people are just broken. Being remorseful, finding whys, trying to fix themselves, etc., may repair the harm to the relationship, but some people are just...broken, at least in terms of their ability to be in relationships and not hurt other people. Some people are just breakers. They hurt and they break and they're broken...and they're never going to be anything else, even when they're trying their hardest. That's okay. There's someone for everyone and some people like broken toys.)

I will tell you this: you take care of yourself, you change your own narrative, you remember that you're more than the role of "husband" and "father" that you've painted yourself into, and you won't have those deathbed regrets. I mean, you'll still have regrets, because that's part of the human condition, but staying married to your wife won't be one of them.

Srsly: the quality of your marriage is not the reason you were put on this earth. It is not the primary narrative of your life. It's a sub-plot at best. Don't live like your life is a romance novel where the pop and gasp at the end is the whole point of the story.

Your life is a fucking adventure novel. Have enough adventures, and getting the girl becomes an afterthought.

"repenting to God" seems to be an easy out, i feel, rather than face the full onslaught of actually looking at oneself and allowing remorse to settle in.

I agree. This is why we've even got an ironic phrase for it: the "come to Jesus" moment. I'd wager on completely non-scientific evidence that something like 90% of the religious yearnings in newly discovered (or just guilty-feeling) waywards isn't about redemption, but about pain avoidance.

"Jesus take this away from me and I'll be good. Promise. Pinky swear."

You might not know it, but I grew up in the church. I'm a preacher's kid.

You see a ton of people have "come to Jesus" moments when your dad is a pastor. A huge chunk of them are facing divorce, facing jail, facing cancer -- some huge, life-altering obstacle -- and they just want to be saved from it. So they put in a little work, come to church a few times, buy a Sunday suit, learn to pray or whatever, and as soon as the circumstances disappear, they're right back in whatever shit they left behind.

This is what I know about God: when someone is truly repentant and has an honest-to-God "come to Jesus" moment, they are *transformed* into someone else. Their entire worldview changes in an authentic way that blows the old shit away. They have an enlightenment, a spiritual awakening, an illumination of the soul.

When you see someone really "get it", whether you're talking about religion or just understanding the consequences of your actions, you don't have any doubt. You see the transformation and know that it's true.

Someone upthread mentioned Aubrie in Wayward. She's a perfect example of what I'm talking about here. Aubrie's spiritual awakening is authentic because you can *see* it. She's a witness to the power of her conviction to be transformative. What you, as a BH, react to when you read Aubrie's posts is the light shining out of her as a by-product of her transformation.

You get anything less than that from a WW, and you're asking the blackjack dealer to hit you on 18.

When you look into your WW's eyes and don't see the spark...when her words ring hollow, like she's just saying the right things...there's a reason that doubt is there.

Here's the other thing about someone like Aubrie: she'll be the first to tell you that getting square with God is not the sum total of the experience. There's still work to do, and it's a fucking ugly valley-of-the-shadow-of-death sort of mess.

My wife walked the same road of broken glass and refining fire. The light in her is so bright, it hurts your eyes to look at it for too long. Took me forever to see it, though. It's always easier to see the transformation in the person who didn't hurt you. Takes longer when you're the one with some butt-hurt to process and their knife to dig out of your back.

Redemption is a learning curve, not an event. Any of the old ladies sitting in the pew at your local church will tell you that. They were saved in an instant at a revival altar in a backwoods Tennessee Baptist church when they were 13 or whatever, but it took them the next 70 years to learn what it meant to conform to the image of God. There's a theological difference between being saved and being a follower of Jesus, if you know what I mean.

(If you don't, that's okay. I absolutely suck shit at being a good follower of Jesus. Look up Rich Mullins if you want to see a role model. I've got my hands full just trying not to be a dick most of the time. Work in progress.)

I digress. The point, to me, is that if someone has a real "come to Jesus" moment, you know it, and they're not getting out of anything. Part of being transformed is that there's a higher standard and a keener awareness of the cost associated with grace. Deuteronomy says there's no forgiveness without the shedding of blood -- redemption always comes with a price for someone to pay.

Heavy shit, there. Too heavy for me.

Easier to look at what you've done and walk away, compartmentalize it, go through the motions without thinking about it anymore. Rugsweep it. Divorce. Either one. Easier to get defensive and conclude your injured spouse is just a punishing cockbag who's never going to let you hear the end of it for "one little mistake" where you fucked that guy eighty or a hundred times for a year. Easier to decide that marriage problems are the blanket solution -- fix these and we'll be alright again.

I'll be alright. People won't know I'm broken, and I'll keep it together this time. I'll get boundaries or better coping mechanisms or some mother's little helper to get me through the tough times. I won't go down this road again.

That's not transformed; that's white-knuckling it. You can live a pretty successful life white-knuckling, but let's not fucking confuse the two. Most men live lives of quiet desperation, quoth Thoreau. That's a man who knew a thing or two about white-knuckling. He lived in the fucking attic and decided the solution was to move into somebody else's (non-Whedon-esque) cabin in the woods and plug himself in as an Author with Big Ideas to get out of his rut.

Didn't want to be that guy, you know. Quiet desperation. Have to re-invent myself as a visionary, be somebody's guru.

That's what white-knuckling looks like: Henry David Thoreau.

(I like Thoreau. Did when I was 15, anyway, before I understood that he was a fucking windbag. What does that mean? This is a guy approaching the problems of the world with a tool set that appeals to 15 y.o. boys that we've somehow convinced ourselves is profound. ProTip: if your solution set appeals almost solely to an audience of 15 y.o. boys and college-aged women who have determined that shaving their legs is a symbol of an imperialistic patriarchy, it's probably not all the shit you think it is.

I still like Thoreau, though. Him and Ayn Rand. Important mile markers on the road to being a grown up, provided you realize that the whole point of mile markers is to tell you where you've been as you put them behind you.)

When I start talking about Ayn Rand, I'm rambling...so I'm out.

[This message edited by wincing_at_light at 8:32 AM, May 21st (Tuesday)]


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6687 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
Ascendant
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Default  Posted: 8:37 AM, May 21st (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

*FP pokes head in the Betrayed Men-Part 10 door, to see if anything is going on...*

"Hey guys, anything new...SWEET BARBECUED JESUS, WAL WROTE A NOVEL WHILE I WAS SLEEPING!!!"

But good shit, as always.

That's what you call a fucking mind worm. Because when their marriages get tough (and they all do), *mom did it and it turned out okay* is going to be lurking in the back of their minds.

If there's one thing that I think every parent should learn, it's this ^^^. Children learn by modeled behaviors...that whole "do as I say, and not as I do" thing only works superficially, if at all. Even if your kid heeds the example that you're preaching and not setting, somewhere deep in their subconscious, there is another voice deep within that compels them to follow the example they saw as a child, even if they despised their parent's actions. And I think this concept is lost on a ton of parents, who just fuck up over and over, and then tell their kids, "Don't make the same mistakes I do."

That's what she's taught your kids. Doesn't matter what you do...if your spouse loves you, they'll stick it out and pick up the pieces of your fuck ups.

I wonder if, subconsciously, the WS thinks the opposite is true as well....if you cheat, and they *don't* stick it out, they must not have really loved you anyway....but the AP must love you, because they are clearly aware of who you are, cheating ways and all, and still want to be with you.

Then, one day, you look up and it's like remembering the story of someone else's life. You're free of it.

Do you remember when that happened specifically for you? Just curious.
The mind worm of shame.

Isn't that part of some WW issues to begin with, though? They have that mind worm of shame from whatever FOO issues they're working with, and it infects everything? So going forward for the WW, is it more about learning healthy ways to deal with that inner voice, but not ever really killing it?

Thanks!


“Anyone who has a continuous smile on his face conceals a toughness that is almost frightening.”

Posts: 1604 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Illinois
Tred
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Default  Posted: 8:40 AM, May 21st (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

FP,

Please don't ask WAL questions when he is on a roll...next thing he'll be pulling Hemingway and Wadsworth into this shit and I'm still trying to digest what he wrote yesterday. Just nod and say "WWS" <== "What WAL Said".


Married: 16 years (14 @JFO)
D-Day: 11/09/11
"Ohhhhh...shut up Tred!" - NOT the official SI motto (DS)

Posts: 3303 | Registered: Dec 2011
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Default  Posted: 9:06 AM, May 21st (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Srsly: the quality of your marriage is not the reason you were put on this earth. It is not the primary narrative of your life. It's a sub-plot at best. Don't live like your life is a romance novel where the pop and gasp at the end is the whole point of the story.Your life is a fucking adventure novel. Have enough adventures, and getting the girl becomes an afterthought.

THIS is perhaps the most important thing that I wish someone I admired would've told me at 13 years old. My dad always taught me to be polite, accepting, and chivalrous to the point of babying in regards to women. No surprise, I was treated like a door mat for the first 20 or so years of my life by women who were, again unsurprisingly, attracted to guys who seemed like door mats. It took my first serious relationship, wherein I spent 3 or so years acquiescing to my GF's passive whining, basically treating her like a delicate flower, before I realized that I missed my friends, and doing the normal stuff that other 21-year-olds were doing. It took me a while to realize that we were equals, and treating her like a grown adult didn't mean I was being disrespectful.
My dad still gets on me *to this day*, about things like that. If I inform him that something is my wife's responsibility around the house (because we agreed to it), he tells me that I'm her husband, so I should do those things for her. I mean, if she gets to hold me accountable for the things I *don't* do, don't I get to do the same? Otherwise I'm not married to an partner, I'm married to someone I have to be delicate with and worry about (in the wrong ways).
Getting back to the original point, even with the infidelity, I am a happier person in this relationship overall than I was in previous, because I don't just define my worth in terms of my relationship. I have cool shit that I enjoy doing, and that stuff keeps me happy, even when the relationship is not perfect...as in now-ish.


“Anyone who has a continuous smile on his face conceals a toughness that is almost frightening.”

Posts: 1604 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Illinois
noescape
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Default  Posted: 1:22 PM, May 21st (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

WWS^^^WWS^^^WWS

"We are not worthy" (waynes world style)

Easier to look at what you've done and walk away, compartmentalize it, go through the motions without thinking about it anymore. Rugsweep it. Divorce. Either one. Easier to get defensive and conclude your injured spouse is just a punishing cockbag who's never going to let you hear the end of it for "one little mistake" where you fucked that guy eighty or a hundred times for a year. Easier to decide that marriage problems are the blanket solution -- fix these and we'll be alright again.

I'll be alright. People won't know I'm broken, and I'll keep it together this time. I'll get boundaries or better coping mechanisms or some mother's little helper to get me through the tough times. I won't go down this road again.

WW fucking S ^^^^. THIS should be up there in the WW definitions or wiki or introductory page of every BH walking through these doors. I've seen so many guys jump at scraps (myself included) and take so much shit and misplaced blame for 'vagivoid the wet cvnt' (trademarked) not being able to have basic humanity and the BHs fall for 'settling' - which they think is progress (well, her stopping herself from fucking other guys for the time being is some form of progress I guess).

Not saying there aren't any truly fWWs out there, but that *f* badge is EARNED not an entitlement 'just coz she said so'.


Posts: 739 | Registered: Feb 2012
Sal1995
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Default  Posted: 1:35 PM, May 21st (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks for the long response WAL, this part really jumped out at me:

Why? Because dress it up all you want and yammer on about "teaching our kids by our mistakes" and "we'll show them how to overcome hard times with luuuurve", there is a price to pay for destroying the family dynamic. She's taught your kids that it's okay to fuck other people

You're right, that was the message, loud and clear. Another message was sent - it's ok for a man to text pictures of his dick to you. Your standards for companionship need be no higher (although I hope being married to me sends at least a mixed message on that front).

My wife and the girls' counselor are now in damage control mode, trying to get the girls to understand that this was outrageous, unacceptable behavior that they never want to repeat.

But I don't know if it's necessarily that hopeless. My grandfather taught my father that it's ok to drink vodka all day long, to drive drunk everywhere you go, and to pass out on the Lazy Boy every night in front of the TV. To make things worse, his mother was also a drunk. So my dad was screwed, right?

He's no angel, but the old man turned out to be a responsible social drinker who at age 74 has never had a DUI or alcohol-related arrest in his life. He likes his martinis as much as the next guy, but he drinks them responsibly. His parents (by example) gave him permission to drink himself into a stupor every day and to drive drunk, and he has said no thanks to that.

I'd like to think that my daughters are not doomed to fuck other men when things get a little rough with the future hubbies. And hopefully they'll slap the shit out of any man who sends them pics of his dick. Doesn't individual free will come into play at all?


Me-45
WW-42
DDay 2/17/13, 10 month PA/EA
Final NC late Feb. '13
M - 18 years, together 19+
4 children

Reconciled


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