X and I had to sit outside my son's counseling appointment the other day and he tried to chit chat. I sat and read the book for my benefits co-op at work. How's THAT for desperation! At first I was shocked x even showed up. After all, he never even called to see how DS was doing after his surgery, let alone came and sat in the waiting room. Then, I thought "of course he came to this appointment". This is the same marriage and family counselor that we went to before. It's still all about how he looks to others. He has to portray himself as the "good guy" because he knows deep down it's not true. Maybe someday these gomers will grow up!

Involving your kids like this is pretty damn low.

I agree. I think that's my biggest problem with this. He like to accuse me of telling the kids too much and using them as pawns, etc., but he doesn't realize that it's him doing it. I've ignored tons of his crap, but I just don't know if that's appropriate when it comes to the kids. So now it's not just responding to kids and finances, I have to decide what to respond to when it comes to kids and finances..

He told me a few months ago to "ask DS9" about the schedule and who he wants to spend more time with. I told him that I will not ask DS9 about that, they are too young to make decisions on visitation, and that I'm upset he keeps trying to think of ways to put them in the middle.

He says that they see me being rude to him and see my hatred for him? That's not true unless he tells them what is going on with us. And I haven't even BEEN rude or hateful to him. I don't tell the kids about our issues, and they don't even see us together anymore, so how would they know how I feel unless he is assuming how I feel and then telling them lies about what I've done??

This really started with him involving the kids in his affair for over a year and having them lie to me about it. I couldn't believe my kids knew her and her son so well and never told me about all the times they had spent together. I never even met her! Right there I see him mind-fucking them, but I don't know what I can do about it. I do my best on this end to reassure them that I love them, they can tell me anything, how secrets are not okay, etc., but I feel like it is all continuing. Like things are happening over there that he's telling them not to tell me about. Doesn't he see how it's him that's fucking with their heads?? He's forcing them to keep secrets FROM THEIR MOTHER.

If this was all just directed at me and my feelings, it would be easier to ignore. I feel like there are HUGE issues when it comes to the kids and alienation and secrets and mind-fucking, so it's hard for me just to ignore that stuff. The momma bear in me feels like sitting on the sidelines and letting it all happen is just wrong.. I know he doesn't respect me at all and won't even admit to what he's doing, so I don't know where to turn. I realize it will not help to discuss with him all the mistakes he is making when it comes to the kids..

My former attorney had mentioned requiring family counseling as part of the divorce. STBX always lied his way through IC and MC when we went in the past, so I don't think it will really be helpful, but I feel like something should be done. My new attorney and I have discussed a parental alienation case against him, and I have some pretty good proof, even some text messages from him to my son where he calls me a liar and tells my son I can't be trusted, but my lawyer said that to prove alienation, his tactics actually have to work. Luckily my kids and I still have a great relationship with lots of love, so I can prove that he's been trying to alienate me, but not that it has actually worked..

This is why I don't even feel like I can deal with the cheating aspect of this heartbreak yet. I'm too worried about my kids and what they've been through and are going through to really care about the actual sex and love that my husband is sharing with other women. It's just not nearly as important or as hurtful as what he's doing to my poor kids.. Now if I could just think of what I'm supposed to be doing about it..

We have "Relationships Australia" here - they have been a fantastic resource for me online and in person.

Unfortunately just as you couldn't make him NOT be a shit husband you also can't make him NOT be a shit father.

Deal with what you can via legal channels - things that can't be deal with via legal channels you deal with your kids and their/your IC only.

The Xs are a lost cause - too far gone. We need to put all of our energy into our kids and ourselves. We and they are not lost causes.

Easier said than done - the sad clown is constantly trying to bait me through the girls. He doesn't give a shit about any damage done to them - as long as he gets his pound of flesh.

They loathe themselves and deep down they feel hideous in their kids eyes - instead of looking inward they decide that WE are to blame for this feeling and set about coming up with crazy connections between the things kids say.

The sad clown recently confused my 5 year old by telling her that we were still married. Yes, its true but what the hell purpose does it serve to confuse her more? I had to try to explain the word 'technically' her.

I told her imagine if you went swimming and you dried yourself off everywhere except your big toe. Now imagine if someone said you were wet? Yes, its true because your big toe is still wet but you're not REALLY wet because its only your big toe.

I have to deal with bullshit idiotic crap like this all the time. It is HARD having to stand by watching all this damage but there is nothing I can do about it legally, certainly nothing I can do about it via him - so my only option is to deal with it via my girls.

((BG)) Keep being the stable, loving, present, compassionate, understanding mother that you are and keep focussing your energies on them. This is our best shot at minimising the damage these muppets are doing to these kids.

It just feels so wrong to keep letting it slide, and to ignore what are some pretty serious accusations against me. I don't want a judge thinking I just didn't care what he had to say. Sometimes I feel the need to simply state that he is wrong..

But as you said, I will do whatever I can legally and otherwise focus on my own IC and IC for the boys.. I really wish this situation would go away, but I guess I have to give up the thought that I have any power to change. I just have to accept what it is and do my best with what IS within my power to do..

Thanks again for the support and advice. Being on this roller coaster of feeling all at once is tough..