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User Topic: Concealed Carry
sisoon
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Member # 31240
Default  Posted: 11:13 AM, May 22nd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

..it's not the gun that scares me, it's the mind of the person behind it and just what is going thru it at the time. way too unpredictable!!!!

Amen!

I see a basic contradiction in the main use of guns for protection. In order to protect kids, and in order to protect guns from being stolen, guns need to be kept unloaded in a gun safe.

That means if your home is invaded, you have to get to the safe, open it under great stress, load the guns(s), and then get back to the point of attack.

I just don't see that working very reliably, and that's separate from the issues of training oneself to know and when not to fire, actually shooting another human being, and keeping one's marksmanship reliable.

My bet is that we'd be safer with fewer guns than with more guns in the hands of people who don't use them regularly enough to make them into true tools, but I guess we'll soon see - oops, sorry, pipe dream because the gun industry won't let us gather the true statistics.

That empowerment thing could be a trap, if it gets you to go into a sitch you wouldn't go into without it. A gun may give you an edge if you're the only armed person, but if your adversary is also armed, your odds go way down. If the empowerment makes you over-confident....

If you need to carry, so be it, but wouldn't it be better not to need the firearm?

The world is a risky place, but the vast majority of us do not face threats that make firearms good protection.

Again, if you need a gun for protection, then getting one and learning to use it makes sense. If you hunt, using a gun makes sense.


fBH (me) - 70 (22 in my head), fWW (plainsong) - 65+, Married 45+, together since 1965
DDay - 12/2010
Recovered, not yet fully R'ed
I share my own experience because it's the only experience I know, not because I'm a good model.

Posts: 10105 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: Chicago area
NotDefeatedYet
♂ Member
Member # 33642
Default  Posted: 11:20 AM, May 22nd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

..and how many other innocent people would have been hit by all the flying bullets???

You mean something like the Hofstra student that was accidentally shot and killed by the police, who were shooting at the perpetrator?

Last month in New York, a scumbag pointed a gun at a mother and her 10 year old daughter and ordered them into their car. He murdered the mother, and raped the 10 year old daughter. Just imagine what the news story had been like if the mom had been armed with a gun. Those who question their ability to use one would likely be searching for a reason not to use one in a similar scenario. If I were that mom, I would have traded my life to prevent my kid from having to live with, not only watching the murder of her mother, but her own subsequent rape.


"It's a fool that looks for logic in the chambers of the human heart."

Posts: 769 | Registered: Oct 2011 | From: Texas
Deeply Scared
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Default  Posted: 11:27 AM, May 22nd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

That means if your home is invaded, you have to get to the safe, open it under great stress, load the guns(s), and then get back to the point of attack.

We have a gun safe and the only time its locked is when we leave our home. We don't have kids nor do our friends that come over have small children running around.

Our guns are within reach (and loaded) in most of the rooms in our home and unless you're(general term) snooping in area's that you shouldn't be, you'd never see them.


"Don't give up, the beginning is always the hardest." My Mom:)

My tolerance for stupid shit is getting less and less.


Posts: 197809 | Registered: May 2002
idiot85
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Member # 38934
Default  Posted: 11:29 AM, May 22nd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I think stories like that show that it's gone too far- when innocent people need guns because everyone else has them. Sad times.

[This message edited by idiot85 at 11:29 AM, May 22nd (Wednesday)]


BH-29 (me)
WW-28

Multi famam, conscientiam, pauci verentur.


Posts: 575 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Old Blighty
NotDefeatedYet
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Member # 33642
Default  Posted: 11:44 AM, May 22nd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Show me a time in history where bad guys didn't exist, and people never needed weapons. Any society at any time in history.

Most violent crimes in the United States don't even involve a weapon. The majority of rapes don't involve a weapon at all. It's too bad. That number would be drastically lower if the right people had weapons. It's all about balance of power. Criminals will use whatever they can to get an advantage in the balance of power, gun or no gun.

[This message edited by NotDefeatedYet at 11:44 AM, May 22nd (Wednesday)]


"It's a fool that looks for logic in the chambers of the human heart."

Posts: 769 | Registered: Oct 2011 | From: Texas
Undefinabl3
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Member # 36883
Default  Posted: 11:55 AM, May 22nd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

If you need to carry, so be it, but wouldn't it be better not to need the firearm?

Yes, I would love to not need a weapon. And a gun is not for everyone for sure. But DH and his job open the door for very ugly people to as they say 'reach out and touch someone'.

Show me a time in history where bad guys didn't exist, and people never needed weapons. Any society at any time in history.

And this is another thing I believe in. Not everyone needs to carry a weapon, but there will always be weapons out there. My current situation and how I view the world has lead me to my conclusion that a gun as a tool of protection is the best way for me. I would also really like to get into self defense and maybe even a hand to hand combat class to give me yet another tool in my pocket.

That means if your home is invaded, you have to get to the safe, open it under great stress, load the guns(s), and then get back to the point of attack.

"The door is not locked for our protection, it is locked for yours"

The only time our guns are not loaded with a full clip and one in the chamber is when they are being cleaned. The only time the safe is locked is when we are not home. What good is a tool if you can't get to it?

(now everyone is going to think i am nuts )


Me: 31 MH
Him: 37 MH
New online find 6/19/14 - shit

Posts: 1739 | Registered: Sep 2012
PippaPeach6
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Default  Posted: 12:36 PM, May 22nd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Not me, undefinabl13. I totally agree. I recently took a tactical arms course and the instructor said his brain was his safety. Why have a gun as home/personal protection if you can't get to it?

These are sad times, but I don't want to wear blinders and pretend there aren't bad people out there who will take advantage of a situation, i.e., me alone in the middle of nowhere. Or in your case, people who intentionally threaten you and your family for their own agenda. And if they are armed, I damned sure will be, too. You can't "nice" some people into not doing bad things. . .

[This message edited by PippaPeach6 at 12:58 PM, May 22nd (Wednesday)]


Us: 50ish, madhatters, married 20 odd yrs
TT: May 2009 'til June
DDay for both: June 17, 2009
Me: 2x, same person, 1991
Him: 1.5 year PA (EA?) 2007-2009
Reconciled

Honey Badger don't care. - Randall


Posts: 386 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: Flyover chic
StillGoing
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Default  Posted: 1:19 PM, May 22nd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

It bothers me that this topic is so us/them. I do not think lethal weapons should be used for self defense. I have my own reasons, but I do think everyone should own a firearm and understand its responsible maintenance, and keep it locked in a gun safe when it is not in use.

I think there is a place for them, and I won't begrudge people their ownership of them, but if someone invades my home I will beat them with a poker or the wooden practice sword before they ever swing that gun up at me, unless they can see me through a wall. If we're outdoors or in an alley I'd rather just give them my wallet or run my ass away if those are my options and C) is gunfight.

These things never go down like they do in movies and instructional videos. I'm told things like mace does not have that long a range, but if I'm that far away, I can run. If I'm closer I can take the gun away and smack the person with it. I feel confident enough in that unless the other person is faster and stronger than I am that I would, in fact, go for that before drawing a concealed weapon I might be carrying myself. Mace and close combat are also great equalizers. BJJ can train a 90lb girl to beat the crap out of a 220lb man.

I do question the quoting of "An armed society is a polite society" since it comes a from a story where everyone is genetically engineered to be awesome and live under a one world government where there's no poverty because society has advanced to an economic socialist utopia and people know they will be reincarnated, with a theme of finding meaning in a society that appears to be meaningless... I dunno. It seems entirely inappropriate to real-world applications of actual armed societies.

Guns definitely have their place, and I do not judge people who want to own and operate them responsibly. It just.. like I said, it doesn't have to be either/or. All of these opinions can be valid, there is a moderate road that accommodates everyone.

eta:

Fun history fact: In 1139 Pope Innocent II banned the use of crossbows, slings and arrows for use against other Christians.

Maybe, Pope Naive... amiright? Sorry.

[This message edited by StillGoing at 1:22 PM, May 22nd (Wednesday)]


“Fate is a fickle bitch who dotes on irony.”

Posts: 7450 | Registered: May 2010 | From: USA
idiot85
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Default  Posted: 1:23 PM, May 22nd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Bad guys exist but guns are a different kettle of fish- the gun related murder rate in the US is 27 or 33 times higher than the UK (taking into account population differences and where you get your data)- surely that's to do with gun laws rather than Americans being more likely to kill??!! You all seem pretty nice to me, I've been to the US a few times- didn't seem particularly murderous bunch! Ha


BH-29 (me)
WW-28

Multi famam, conscientiam, pauci verentur.


Posts: 575 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Old Blighty
GabyBaby
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Member # 26928
Default  Posted: 1:28 PM, May 22nd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

We have a gun safe and the only time its locked is when we leave our home.

Our guns are within reach (and loaded) in most of the rooms in our home and unless you're(general term) snooping in area's that you shouldn't be, you'd never see them.

Ditto BOTH of these points.
I dont have a CCW (yet), but I am working toward getting one within the next couple of years.
In the meantime, hubby and I have a large amount of weapons (he's collected knives and guns since he was able to legally own them). We're both former military and are trained to use them.

We live in a great neighborhood. A few days before Christmas last year, our newest neighbors were the "victims" of a home invasion robbery attempt.
I say "victims" because the homeowner (husband) was shot in the process, but he defended his home (and is alive to talk about it). At the time of the invasion, there were a number of kids there for a sleepover. One of the home invaders was killed in the process and the others have since been arrested.
Had neighbor not had weapons in the home, the story could have turned out a lot differently.

Interestingly enough, there is only one home on our court where the homeowner does NOT have weapons. Since the incident, our neighbors have shared the "joke" that the would-be robbers really chose poorly when they picked our street.

[This message edited by GabyBaby at 1:29 PM, May 22nd (Wednesday)]


Me - 40s
SorryInSac - WH#2 - 40s. DDay 7/12/14
Married 4, together 7yrs total
Status - ??

DD(21), DS(18, PDD-NOS)
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Legally married 18yrs, together 16.5yrs

I edit often for clarity.


Posts: 6443 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: California
TrulyReconciled
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Default  Posted: 2:14 PM, May 22nd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

What good is a tool if you can't get to it?

Exactly.


"In a time of deceit, telling the Truth is a revolutionary act."

Posts: 21131 | Registered: Dec 2003 | From: Hell and back, way back :o)
TrulyReconciled
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Default  Posted: 2:18 PM, May 22nd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My bet is that we'd be safer with fewer guns than with more guns in the hands of people who don't use them regularly enough to make them into true tools, but I guess we'll soon see - oops, sorry, pipe dream because the gun industry won't let us gather the true statistics.

Interesting point since gun ownership is way up and yet gun violence is way down (about half the levels of the 1990s and declining).

Yet when asked if people thought that gun violence in the US is (a) increasing (b) about the same or (c) reduced over the past 20 years the most recent (Pew) poll showed:

(a) 56% increasing
(b) 26% about the same
(c) 12% reduced significantly (correct answer)


"In a time of deceit, telling the Truth is a revolutionary act."

Posts: 21131 | Registered: Dec 2003 | From: Hell and back, way back :o)
NotDefeatedYet
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Member # 33642
Default  Posted: 2:37 PM, May 22nd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Bad guys exist but guns are a different kettle of fish- the gun related murder rate in the US is 27 or 33 times higher than the UK (taking into account population differences and where you get your data)- surely that's to do with gun laws rather than Americans being more likely to kill??!! You all seem pretty nice to me, I've been to the US a few times- didn't seem particularly murderous bunch! Ha

We don't have a 'gun problem'. We actually have a gang problem. Gang murders account for the huge majority of gun murders. These gang members who get shot will almost never tell you who did it, or anything else. If they live through it, they get their buddies and retaliate by shooting at the shooter and all his friends. It's a never ending cycle, but it won't sell advertising if that's all the news covered.

The difference between the US and the UK is Europe as a whole isn't a gun society. The North American continent was the last frontier so to speak. You don't venture into the woods by yourself miles and miles from the nearest human being and not have some form of protection. Because of that, guns have just been a tool of the trade. In Europe, society's elite have always been the ones to have the guns, and the populations have been rather dense for centuries. You never have to go far to find help. The US is only a few hundred years old; it's a young country. A lot of guns from the civil war and such are still around in families, having been passed down.


"It's a fool that looks for logic in the chambers of the human heart."

Posts: 769 | Registered: Oct 2011 | From: Texas
StillGoing
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Default  Posted: 3:10 PM, May 22nd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

The difference between the US and the UK is Europe as a whole isn't a gun society. The North American continent was the last frontier so to speak. You don't venture into the woods by yourself miles and miles from the nearest human being and not have some form of protection. Because of that, guns have just been a tool of the trade. In Europe, society's elite have always been the ones to have the guns, and the populations have been rather dense for centuries. You never have to go far to find help. The US is only a few hundred years old; it's a young country. A lot of guns from the civil war and such are still around in families, having been passed down.

This really doesn't work as an argument at all because of several things going on with it at the same time.

wrt what the US and UK is socially, the US was an extension of the UK during its frontier era. A borderland is only as rugged and lawless as the force of law that governs it, and by the time the U.S. had established itself as a nation it had developed as a power significant enough to put a major world power to full stop.

It's also unrealistic to consider the U.S. a "gun society" with weapons passed down from father to son because (and I have one of these from my granddad) they are isolated to specific segments of the population - mirroring your argument that only the elite in European countries owned weapons. Blacks, women, and people who did not own a certain quality and volume of land in the U.S. were either unlikely or flat out barred from owning personal firearms. That elitism was actually much more entrenched over here due to the economic strata of elitism than in Europe, where people had to get dragged out of their homes between harvest and planting seasons to go kill each other and get ridden down by big people on giant horses on a regular basis. Ownership of arms and armor was there, as here, an economic factor more than one of nobility. Going all the way back to the Roman Republic, before the Marian reforms, the reason nobles had weapons and armor was because they could afford them. It is a very European idea that a citizen should own and maintain his own weaponry to be used in the defense of his home/land.

Additionally, wrt population centers, 80% of the worlds population is *still* within 20 miles of an ocean coastline.

Personally I think the lower gun violence rate in the UK is due to an increase in personal safety at the cost of fewer civil liberties. It is not an exchange I would be willing to make, but that does not make the problem with gun violence in our country any less real.


“Fate is a fickle bitch who dotes on irony.”

Posts: 7450 | Registered: May 2010 | From: USA
Rebreather
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Default  Posted: 3:14 PM, May 22nd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Interesting timing, since I was just talking to the aide that saved Gabby Giffords life. And the father of a teacher killed at Sandy Hook.

We are gun owners, but I don't have a CCW. I do carry on occasion, but mostly only when hiking backwoods. What worries me the most, always, about guns is other gun owners and their ability to make solid, rational decisions. Just because someone has a CCW doesn't mean they are now equiped to deescalate a volatile sitaution. I appreciate the OP's position of it being a grave responsibility, not something to be cocky about.


Me BS
Him WH
2 ddays in '07
Recovering.
"The cure for the pain, is the pain." -Rumi

Posts: 6452 | Registered: Jan 2011
TrulyReconciled
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Default  Posted: 3:35 PM, May 22nd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'd be willing to bet that the soldier attacked and hacked to death (and that's being polite) in broad daylight in London today right next to the Royal Military Barracks wished he had been able to legally carry a sidearm!

[This message edited by TrulyReconciled at 3:38 PM, May 22nd (Wednesday)]


"In a time of deceit, telling the Truth is a revolutionary act."

Posts: 21131 | Registered: Dec 2003 | From: Hell and back, way back :o)
StillGoing
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Default  Posted: 3:47 PM, May 22nd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I think he'd wish he was immeasurably wealthy and living on a tropical island somewhere if wishes were involved.


“Fate is a fickle bitch who dotes on irony.”

Posts: 7450 | Registered: May 2010 | From: USA
nowiknow23
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Default  Posted: 4:59 PM, May 22nd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I dont understand the fear of guns in the right hands.
I don't have a fear of guns in the right hands. But if I ran into a civilian in line at a grocery store who was carrying? I would have no way of knowing that their hands are the right ones, or what their motivation is for carrying, or what level of training they've got, or that you maintain the weapon appropriately so that it is safe, or that their mental health is... well... healthy.

And I quite likely would move to another line. With haste.


You can call me NIK

"Sometimes it takes a good fall to know where you really stand."
-Hayley Williams


Posts: 25389 | Registered: Aug 2011
nowiknow23
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Default  Posted: 5:02 PM, May 22nd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

And I forgot to mention - congratulations, Undefinabl3. I, too, hope you never have reason to use your weapon.


You can call me NIK

"Sometimes it takes a good fall to know where you really stand."
-Hayley Williams


Posts: 25389 | Registered: Aug 2011
idiot85
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Member # 38934
Default  Posted: 6:12 PM, May 22nd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

And look at the nationwide drama the completely out of the ordinary attack is in Woolwich-

You knonw what, it's a tricky debate and I'm happy to agree to disagree- I personally don't agree with the gun laws in the US but, I don't live there so my opinion is worthless- I'm OK with that

Edited to add- I just wanted to say about the Woolwich thing- he was struck by a car randomly before those psychos attacked him- the answer to every attack isn't a gun. I very much doubt it would have made a difference today and that comment will be no comfort to that poor guy's family and friends.

OK, I'm done now! Phew...

[This message edited by idiot85 at 6:40 PM, May 22nd (Wednesday)]


BH-29 (me)
WW-28

Multi famam, conscientiam, pauci verentur.


Posts: 575 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Old Blighty
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