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The sex was like a "spiritual experience." as if he "looked into my soul." My WW conscientiously and deliberately decided to seek out 2 PAs, starting in Jan. on Ashley Madison (AM), a cheaters website. I stormed Normandy via her cell phone email account one month ago after suspicions about an overnight stay with an old female college friend.

It was around midnight, about 12 hours since my WW had last been plundered..And her response when presented with the news that our life as we had once known it was over? "Do you really want to do this now?" I thought, "No dear, you're right. Let me get a good night's sleep then we'll discuss it in the morning, honey." No, not really. It was more like, "Are you crazy you cold fucking bitch?" We did talk all night and have hardly stopped talking since, except to have HB sex, write a NC email, spiral into depression a few times, cry uncontrollably, break NC, and scour IS for answers.

We have come along way in a month and have learned many things from IS. WS is coming out of the fog, feeling remorse, and my gut feeling is that she is now finally telling me the whole truth (I'll never know for sure). But there are a few things that I am struggling with and request the words of experience and kindred pain.

The facts bear out that the APs were better than me in many ways. This is not a pity party. I know that as people, they are WHs and scumbags that would clean rugs by swinging cats at them. However, one was rich, younger, and had some fleeting fame. The other was the type of artist my WW admires, a prolific writer (at least in emails designed to pluck her from my loving grasp), and owner of a company similar to mine - yet far more interesting (especially when you hear WW describe it..I almost came just listening to her excitement).

And frankly, I've never felt that WW was very interested in much that I had to say, previous to d-day. We've talked at length of her constant distractions and lack of response when I'm speaking, as well as her inability to tell me what she wants and my inability to take criticism.

Then, there is the sex that God somehow took time from his busy schedule to personally bestow upon my WW, using the OM as His "worthy" proxy. I question whether "in the fog" she could tell God from Satan, but that is off topic. As the fog has begun to ascend WW has realized much of her experience was a self-created delusion.

However, we have distilled down some sexual techniques the OM used and they are things that may greatly enhance our sex life. WW somewhat subconsciously used the same techniques on me and even aside from the usual HB effect, the sex was the most powerful I'd ever experienced.

OM apparently also thrust a little more while getting head (which is a magical image that is now imprinted my brain like an malapropos tattoo from a nebulous drunken evening) and now my WW is suddenly able to give better BJs (if BJ is not in the Acronym list it means BLOW JOB, for the uninformed).

The only person, that I know of, that WW spoke of her A to was her sister. She also bad-mouthed me to her as well as her APs, breaking the prime directive of our relationship. I've always felt that her sister was my sister and now I feel she betrayed me too, by not revealing the A to me while it was yet a green sprout. Her silence allowed the tree to grow and bear the fruit of temptation (now do you get my handle, AdamsApple?). And my WW vigorously devoured the fruit, surprisingly without gagging, mind you.

I now have a swarming murder of questions.

How do I deal with the fact that as one person, I can't be everything to the one I love?

[This message edited by AdamsApple at 7:20 PM, May 24th (Friday)]

The sex was like a "spiritual experience." as if he "looked into my soul."

I don't know if it will make you feel any better but mine said the exact some words. Fucking verbatim. The sex with the AP was illicit, forbidden. Yet another parallel to your user name. I would assume that it would be pretty amazing under those circumstances.

My wife left for the OM so our situations are a bit different but I'll do my best to answer.

How do I deal with the fact that as one person, I can't be everything to the one I love?

I think you have to recognize that you can't ever be everything for anybody and that relationships with that sort of requirement are toxic and unhealthy. Our relationships should supplement our happiness and our wholeness as people, not define or depend on them.

How do I justify keeping WS from having what makes her happy, if I love her..even if that is another person?

You don't have that kind of power. She's a fully functioning human being who is fully capable of making her own choices, whether they be good or bad. If she wants to go for the AP, frankly there is nothing you can do to stop her. You need to create and enforce healthy boundaries to help you in this event, of course.

How do I deal with the fact that my love and respect for her have kept me from treating her like the slut she sometimes wants to be. How can I change so that my concern for her needs and my love for her doesn't prevent me from being a better lover?

That sounds like her issue, not yours. She needs some serious therapy.

How do I reconcile the fact that OM was just a better lover and that our sex life can be better by using what he "taught" her?

I have no fucking idea. I don't think I would have been able to deal with this.

How do I deal with the feeling that this experience will make me a far better H, yet I don't feel that she should be rewarded for betraying me. Does she deserve a better husband and marriage?

Once again, I have no idea. I suspect that's just something you're going to have to let go at some point if you're going to stay married to her. (by the way, there is a lot of discussion about this topic in the Betrayed Men thread down in I Can Relate.)

How do I accept that her A has improved our communication and enabled us to reveal our frailties?

I don't know but this also seems like something you're going to have to accept if you're going to stay married.

How do I accept the fact that she submitted to OM more emotionally and physically during sex more than she ever has with me and the reward was far greater than it has been with me?

I don't think I would have been able to deal with that. No answer for you there, other than the fact that she is very likely full of shit.

How do I accept that our sex life may end up better as a result of the A.

Don't know. Maybe it's easier in the long run if they leave.

How do I not think of him every time she goes a little deeper than she was previously willing or able; or when we do something that THEY did?

Once again, I don't think I could have handled this.

I don't know whether I want to punch OM for taking my WW or thank him for the the great sex tips. That is a difficult to bear.

He's not worth thinking about. Try thinking about something that has some sort of actual value instead, like the way you felt after taking your morning shit. He has less value as a human being than what you flushed when you were done.

Should her APs be outed so their BSs can know the truth?

Absolutely. They need to know what they are married to. They deserve the truth just as much as you did. Don't tell your wife what you're going to do (OK, so she'll probably know since she posts here but don't tell her when or how.)

There were possibly two people that could have let me know about the As before final consummation and neither spoke up. I would have wanted to know before severe and possible irreversible damage was done.

I'm pretty disgusted with my ex's enablers. I wouldn't wish this on anybody but if they could understand even a glimmer of the pain caused by this, they might have been a bit more proactive.

Should I hold her sister accountable? I understand her view being tainted by my WW. But, she knew me. I thought she was family and she turned on me without even talking to me.

I know that if she had come back and we had tried to work on our marriage, I would have never been in the same room as her one sister who enabled her again. I would have been friendly with the other two, even though they haven't contacted me since she told them about her affair. Actually, I have no idea what she told them...

It's hard.

I'm in a similar situation sex with my WW was not very stellar she had basically reduced it to a cost benefit analysis of time vs a little pleasure and thought the time was too much.

Then I find out she's been having wonderful sex with another man.

It was a little shattering, I knew our sex life sucked but sort of in my mind thought it was something with her, we've spent hours and hours talking about it before how to try to make it worth it for her but she just wasn't that into it. She said her mind would just drift to other topics etc which is very different from what my mind was doing I thought that was the disconnect.

But now we are committed to rebuilding a sex life that works. At the same time I struggle with the feeling that it took a third party to break into my life and try to ruin everything to get her inboard with this effort. I'm sure ill be much happier if we succeed but at the same time.. How do I accept that this is a byproduct of a disastrous period in my life.

Granted I'm only two weeks out.

As for the feelings I guess you need to ask her if she wants you or not. I've had similar feelings and its not much fun.

As for the sister... Fool me once etc. I doubt that bond between you two was strong enough to withstand this.

Don't just view the sex as tell me what he did to make you like it. Yes she should be pleased too but so should you. Don't just recreate the hem, create a new you and her to make something different than it was before but I imagine you'd only haunt yourself if you just tried to become the OM in bed. Save yourself that pain and be true to yourself.

As to the OM being a better lover...I read somewhere in the healing library that trying to compare an affair to a relationship is wholly unfair. They had a lot going for their super sex feelings, being taboo, naughty, deceitful, lying, cheating, all made it better in their minds. She obviously released all her inhibitions and just let go, and he obviously wasn't complaining. This is the part that sucks, the... Why the hell didnt you just come to me for your sexual renaissance feeling. It wasn't just him though it was her is what I'm trying to say so get her to she'd those inhibitions with you and enjoy it.

I'll stop rambling now sorry reading your story sort of brought my own back into my head but I hope some of my rambling may be helpful.

Well, I don't know what kind of a "writer" that she wants, but I can tell you as an avid reader that you write beautifully, express yourself beautifully, and you are very funny and interesting. (No, I am not coming on to you. LOL)

Many of the questions that you asked, we have all asked ourselves. Our marriage is also better via the affair, and I also feel like I am rewarding him for the most obnoxious behavior. He disrespected me, betrayed me in ways I still cringe to think about, but nevertheless, our relationship and communications have improved.

I think I was like your wife. I really didn't listen to him and really had just kind of lost interest in him. Of course, in my case, he had the affair, not me. I just have (had) such an aversion to affairs while married, I don't think I could have ever, or can never, do it.

You are just starting on the roller-coster from hell. You will hate her, love her, pity her, and dispise her. Maybe all in the same day!! If she truly loves you and wants it to work, and an affair is not a deal breaker for you, then you can make it through it.

By the way, any guy who is as interested in pleasing his wife sexually as you are can not possibly be a bad lover.

Well, I don't know what kind of a "writer" that she wants, but I can tell you as an avid reader that you write beautifully, express yourself beautifully, and you are very funny and interesting. (No, I am not coming on to you. LOL)

I said the same thing to my WS! That I don't know what else she would want because even though my heart breaks for you, your post was one of the most entertaining ones I have read.

As stated by others, you are just starting on this very long and very painful journey.

My WS has stated the sex he had with the prostitutes was boring and generic, but of course I don't believe it, can't imagine how I would feel if he had actually told me good things about them. That just seems like sticking the knife in deeper and deeper.

Take care of yourself right now and post often, there are some great people here.

how do you deal with it? get rid of her. tell her to go to find her spiritual experience so you can have a wife that isn't so shallow and gullible. So you can have a wife that's honest and faithful.

either that, or deal with the fact that she's daydreaming about him at this very moment. As evidenced by her post in WW.

I thank you for your thoughtful responses. Though I can't respond to everything, I would like to respond to some.

h0peless: I appreciate your insights and the detail of your responses.

I think you have to recognize that you can't ever be everything for anybody and that relationships with that sort of requirement are toxic and unhealthy. Our relationships should supplement our happiness and our wholeness as people, not define or depend on them.

This is fucking brilliant. This is my issue that has been exposed and enhanced by the A. And I need to come to grips with this.

He's not worth thinking about. Try thinking about something that has some sort of actual value instead, like the way you felt after taking your morning shit. He has less value as a human being than what you flushed when you were done.

LOL!

Hopefulguy:

I guess you need to ask her if she wants you or not.

She tells me and is showing me more each day that she does. In even the worst of her emails, she always stated that she would never leave me and she never told the APs that she loved them. Even in the "fog" she appears to have kept those boundaries. She even purposely chose men that were unobtainable for marriage - hence the cheaters website.

Don't just view the sex as tell me what he did to make you like it. Yes she should be pleased too but so should you. Don't just recreate the hem, create a new you and her to make something different than it was before but I imagine you'd only haunt yourself if you just tried to become the OM in bed. Save yourself that pain and be true to yourself.

This is fantastic advice. Thank you!

They had a lot going for their super sex feelings, being taboo, naughty, deceitful, lying, cheating, all made it better in their minds. She obviously released all her inhibitions and just let go

As she has come out of the fog WW has been backpeddling slightly to this position. But AP definitely did things that I was not doing in ways I was not doing them. She did also have some complaints about AP that I didn't mention.

kansas1968 and Tiredofthepain:

Well, I don't know what kind of a "writer" that she wants, but I can tell you as an avid reader that you write beautifully, express yourself beautifully, and you are very funny and interesting. (No, I am not coming on to you. LOL)

By the way, any guy who is as interested in pleasing his wife sexually as you are can not possibly be a bad lover.

I said the same thing to my WS! That I don't know what else she would want because even though my heart breaks for you, your post was one of the most entertaining ones I have read.

Your words made me laugh and feel better. I don't know if it's appropriate here, but getting female validation feels very good. The ironic thing is that WW and I have never really written to each other in 16 years. I don't think she even knew I could write.

mike7:

how do you deal with it? get rid of her. tell her to go to find her spiritual experience so you can have a wife that isn't so shallow and gullible. So you can have a wife that's honest and faithful.

either that, or deal with the fact that she's daydreaming about him at this very moment. As evidenced by her post in WW.

I've been dealing with it as if she is addicted and that it is an addiction she will kick, if she wants to. Her honesty about her feelings in her post (that she clearly knows I can view) I hope displays her commitment. However, she has displayed surprising manipulative skills during the As and after d-day. But, as of the last few days, has shown many signs of the fog of deceit lifting and her understanding the gravity of her actions.

i'm sorry. that was a little harsh. You're hurting and i sympathize. i just see the same story over and over again. i even see it in my life. there's two guys at work who's wives are having an affair, for months. the guys are just clinging and hoping and moping. I've tried to direct them here, but they just can't imagine life without their wives.

the world is FULL of women. and maybe I'm an optimist, but I think the majority are more genuine than these cheating WWs.

YOU deserve more that her. You don't deserve to put up with that shit. Whatever your problems in your marriage were, you didn't deserve for her to sign up to AM so she could fuck people. that is just unbelievably fucked up. I don't know why you don't throw her clothes out on the street. that's what she deserves.

As far as the sister? I think you should tell her she's not welcome at your house or around your children, and tell her why.

As far as advice goes, I'd say don't pay any attention to what your wife is saying about the great sex. And I recommend you get IC. pronto. You're in for a bad ride friend.

there are others here who can give better advice than me. I'm sorry that I ranted about your situation, and i'm sorry for what you are going through.

take care of yourself friend.

However, we have distilled down some sexual techniques the OM used and they are things that may greatly enhance our sex life. WW somewhat subconsciously used the same techniques on me and even aside from the usual HB effect, the sex was the most powerful I'd ever experienced.

You do know that if you search "better sex" on amazon.com, you get 16,735 books. Imagine how many tips are contained therein, and how easy it would have been for your wife to try some out ON HER HUSBAND.

OM is not some kind of uberstud. He's just a loser who spends his time trolling and f*cking.

The problem is that your wife is messed-up. She actually thought the grass was greener on trashy, shallow AM profiles than with her unique, creative, faithful husband. For healthy women, commitment is a turn-on. A healthy woman may get off on slut role playing, but actually being treated like a slut--only broken people look for that.

How do I accept that our sex life may end up better as a result of the A.

If your sex life is better it is because of changes in the two people having the actual sex. Two people who are finally more vulnerable towards each other and stop taking each other for granted are likely to have better sex.

Why did it take something so drastic and toxic for your wife to "reveal her frailties"? Because messed-up people have layers of denial and bravado as protection from their own problems. They do not want to admit that they are deeply flawed.

If your marriage gets better it will be because your wife becomes a better person (which will likely take time and a ton of IC to address whatever's underneath her stupid, irresponsible, hurtful behavior).

If she does this work and learns to value you, the marriage, and herself than the credit goes to her. If you grow into a more understanding, communicative person the credit goes to you. You both could thrive due to your own resolve and wisdom. If that happens, it has zero zip nada to do with OM the sleaze guru.

[This message edited by sailorgirl at 8:12 PM, May 24th (Friday)]

Thanks mike7 for your support.

YOU deserve more that her. You don't deserve to put up with that shit. Whatever your problems in your marriage were, you didn't deserve for her to sign up to AM so she could fuck people. that is just unbelievably fucked up. I don't know why you don't throw her clothes out on the street. that's what she deserves.

My WW has actually said something similar to me in the last few days. The thought has not escaped me that I'm still being played and lied to. My eyes are wide open. I only have my gut to go on in judging her sincerity. She has very high technical skills and she wouldn't be careless enough to get caught again, if that is her desire.

I am glad what I said made you laugh and feel better. We all desperately need that now and no, there is nothing wrong with appreciating it from the opposite sex.

We are only human and the very person we loved and trusted has betrayed us and caused us unbelievable pain.

We all want to feel needed, attractive, special and those closest to us stole that from us and our lives by their selfish, self serving actions.

I read her post on the WW side and sounds like she only partly gets what she has done.

I don't know anyone here personally, but do know not one of us here deserved this crap.

Laughter is about the only thing that saves me these days so glad it helped. Hang in there.

But AP definitely did things that I was not doing in ways I was not doing them.

We have distilled down some sexual techniques the OM used and they are things that may greatly enhance our sex life

I, personally, would NEVER be able to change *my* sex way to *mimic* an AP's style. No fucking way. Even IF you do some technique of *his* that was 'spiritual'....it's not going to be the same because YOU ARE YOU. You are NOT him.

IMO, this whole 'sex' thing is a red herring. You could have been the KingKong of the BedRoom and your WW STILL would have betrayed you.

I just don't know how 'adopting' anything from the OM is going to affect your mindset in the long run. I'd be really careful with doing that because I can guarantee that, although your marriage may end up being repaired and better than ever.....you will NEVER forget 'why' you are doing <whatevernewmove>. Maybe a guy that is in R can weigh in on that issue.....

Well, I don't know what kind of a "writer" that she wants, but I can tell you as an avid reader that you write beautifully, express yourself beautifully, and you are very funny and interesting.

I agree with kansas....

sailorgirl: Thank you for your insights.

You do know that if you search "better sex" on amazon.com, you get 16,735 books. Imagine how many tips are contained therein, and how easy it would have been for your wife to try some out ON HER HUSBAND.

This has been a primary issue for us. I have asked a million times what she wants (sexually) and she says "nothing" or "everything is fine." She has come to this realization and even had another Aha! moment today about not being able to say what she wants. I also have been loathe to accept criticism. And that became clear to me in the aftermath of d-day. But what you say about other options for aquiring knowledge of "better sex" is clearly true and even she is realizing this, I think.

They do not want to admit that they are deeply flawed.

I'm not going to defend WW or her actions. But at least verbally, she is admitting to her issues and taking responsibility for her actions. Only time will tell if she is not playing me.

As everyone here can probably tell, I have lost most of my confidence sexually and somewhat as a person, and I'm not quite sure what to do about that. But the support and advice here is helpful.

[This message edited by AdamsApple at 8:51 PM, May 24th (Friday)]

As everyone here can probably tell, I have lost most of my confidence sexually and somewhat as a person, and I'm not quite sure what to do about that.

I have no answers for you there. I'm 10 months out from Dday and can't imagine having sex with someone else again. I think the prevailing wisdom is to work through the pain, don't stuff your new issues or turn to something unhealthy like drugs, booze or revenge affairs and eventually you'll find your way. I'm not there yet but that's the theory I'm operating under.

IMO, this whole 'sex' thing is a red herring. You could have been the KingKong of the BedRoom and your WW STILL would have betrayed you.

I agree with you, that she would have strayed anyway. In fact her first AP couldn't get it up, so she's had both ends of the spectrum.

I should really say what "technique" I'm referring to. The primary thing that the AP did was constant eye contact during sex. It creates a real connection and is just something I never really gave much thought to. Now that I've been made aware of it, I think it's brilliant and I can't believe I never discovered this before.

Once I realized that I didn't look in her eyes much during sex, I found I was missing a lot of pleasure. It's hard to now say, "Well, I learned this from her A, so I won't look into eyes."

There were some other things that he did too. Most of them were like, "duh, why didn't I think of that?" It's hard to admit at 51 years old that there is still a lot I can learn about sex.

"Your words made me laugh and feel better. I don't know if it's appropriate here, but getting female validation feels very good."

*******************

Of course it is appropriate. We all suffer the same pain, male or female, and many times it does help to get a perspective from the opposite sex.

It might be helpful for you to read some of the women waywards posts.

Lots of good books out there also. Good articles in the healing library on this site.

AP definitely did things that I was not doing in ways I was not doing them

You are absolutely right. But what was really going on?

He was cheating.

She was cheating.

They were doing something that is "forbidden".

You cannot cheat with your spouse, and you don't realize how fucked up she is to do this to another human being. Cheating is extremely hurtful to other people.

Frankly, I'm no slough in the sack, and I don't have many inhibitions, but I would never do with my wife what the OM did (fuck in a public place and risk being arrested).

Prior poster is correct, lots of sex tips in books, you don't have to fuck over someone who loves you to improve your sex life.

Don't romanticize cheating, that's just fog-talk.

It is like romanticizing drowning a child in a bathtub, like those crazed parents who kill their children. Think of that, then add those words she said "it was like a spiritual experience" and "he looked into my soul". Yeah, fog-talk.

The sex was like a "spiritual experience." as if he "looked into my soul."

AKA as "baggage free sex." It's illicit and forbidden. It's free of children, mortgages, credit card bills, alarms going off at 6:00 a.m., morning breath, and running toilets.

A husband can't compete with that and shouldn't try, because it's a fantasy to begin with. Marriage is a commitment of two people trying to make it in this world together, not unicorns and rainbows. She needs to get her head on straight.

Your post renders me somewhat speechless. There seems almost an admiring acceptance of the adultery your WW has committed. Makes it somewhat more likely she could do this again sometime in the future, so she could once more share a spiritual experience of OM looking into her soul. The pursuit of ecstasy.

Your WW is presently treading very carefully; doesn't want to lose her secure marriage to a very suitable life companion. Its almost as if your wife is telling you she got lessons from an experienced professional; now you as a naive amateur get to learn how to make love properly. A trifle condescending don't you think?

Of course, she may need to use AM for more love lessons in the future, so as to introduce increased physical efficiency into your sex life. I suppose she is assuming you will respond as you are reacting to the current cheating.

This is so wrong; you are almost making a virtue of her betrayal and she escapes the condemnation she richly deserves for risking pregnancy, exposing you to disease and staining the marriage forever.

Maybe I'm just old-fashioned or out of touch with modern trends.

Ok Now: I find your post a "trifle condescending" and loaded with your own projections - providing no relevant insight.

Please keep your insults and negativity to yourself.