I would tell the principal of the school exactly what happened and why you don't want her near your kids. Let them figure something out, let her deal with the fallout of that. Maybe it will be the "catalyst" for her ending her career there and going to a different school.
[This message edited by cissi at 3:17 PM, June 4th (Tuesday)]
Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something.
Thank you too for all the valuable advice. You gave me a lot to think about. First of all, from lurking on here (I read the WHOLE healing library), I heard about "Not Just Friends" by Shirley Glass, and I found "After the Affair" as well. My husband and I read both of them and found them immensely helpful. I just say that so you know that we are farther along the healing path than perhaps my post led you to believe. About the "cuddling and holding hands," (not even kissing) I realize that it sounds like I am completely in denial, but I have grilled my husband in many months and I am sure I know all there is to know about that incident. I had condensed the story for the sake of length, but the cuddling/hand holding took place on a second, more local trip 2-3 months after Europe. In Europe apparently, they did spend evenings in the hotel together, sitting on the bed, talking and drinking wine, but there was only a moment when they looked at each other and almost kissed (but didn't). I also left out the fact that my son was on the Europe trip too, which I have to admit made me even more upset they had been in each other's hotel rooms and that she did stuff like sleep with her head on his shoulder on the plane when my son and his friends could have walked by at any time. It was a school trip they were supervising and they were the only two chaperones (which was also the case on the trip they had taken 2-3 months later). Do I think more would have happened eventually, in the not-so-far future? Yes. I think that if they had continued seeing each other, alone, then it would have been more physical. I think I intervened just in time. But he has sworn nothing more happened, on the lives of our children, so I have to accept it. He has spent many nights crying in my arms, showing true abject remorse, so I have to believe him. He has really changed his boundaries and behaviors (he doesn't go out with his co-workers after work unless I am also there) and he tells me about all his interactions with any of the younger women on staff. The NC love letter that he wrote was immediately after disclosure last summer when he was seriously in the fog. In fact, I think he was in the fog for months afterward, and he still slips into it from time to time. He has changed jobs, and he did tell his principal why he was switching schools (though he didn't go into any details about what had happened between him and the other teacher).
After I heard confirmation from ALL of you that I am not over-reacting and my feelings are perfectly normal (!) I had a serious talk with my husband and got him to understand why this was so important to me (not having the OW teach my kids), and should be, also, for him. He said he supports me and told me it is "a big deal!" (Yes, finally!). We are going to work to change the situation together.
It really helped me, StillHere09, when you wrote:
Consider this, too - You want your kids to have a healthy home life, and are considering making the ultimate sacrifice of bearing this burden privately. Believe me, you are only human, and the burden you would bear would most certainly be sensed by your children. Their home life would be affected.
You're so right, and you expressed in a way that I was able to share with my husband.
I would like to address more of what many of you have written, but I have to get ready for work now. Thanks again for all your posts. I will keep you updated on my situation.....
As far as believing that your husband has disclosed all that has happened, there does come a point, if you are reconciling, that you just have to believe that they have told you all. There really is no way (I don't really agree with polygraphs) to know if all has been disclosed and we just have to take a leap of faith. Very hard to do unless you are rugsweeping.
"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson
But he has sworn nothing more happened, on the lives of our children, so I have to accept it. He has spent many nights crying in my arms, showing true abject remorse, so I have to believe him.
That was a bit of a trigger for me because with each new detail and discovery, my husband would say that now I know everything and swore on our children's lives, the Bible, our parent's graves, you name it. Many agonizing tears, and groveling, even looking me directly in the eyes with the most remorseful face. And it all turned out to be untrue and just an act of self-preservation. He no longer was cheating but he was also not telling me everything. In hindsight he knows that this was a HUGE mistake on his part but he really felt that if I knew the full extent of his PA's, I wouldn't even give our marriage a chance. He was remorseful, but he still wasn't willing to tell me everything.
I still don't believe I know everything and don't necessarily believe he's told me all (and probably doesn't remember it all either) but I have seen the hard work he's done on himself, the changes in words and actions that have held up for more than 5 years,and I have come to accept that I probably don't know everything and that he probably still has some secrets. But I can accept that and unless his behaviors and actions show differently, will continue to give him the grace to reconcile. Truthfully, it bothers him now when I say I don't believe I know everything.... but he understands why.
I guess what I'm trying to say is don't feel you ever "have" to believe him based on what he says right now. Give it more time. It's so hard not to believe them, isn't it? especially in the beginning when all your life together you've never had a reason not to? And can't imagine that they would ever make the choices that they did? I just don't want you to be blown away if you ever discover much more happened than what you believe. BTDT and it is sooooooo painful.
Hopefully some of this makes sense.
Which is my way of saying that tears & drama alone are meaningless. In fact, they are sometimes the most potent lies in a cheater's toolbox because we, the betrayed, want so much to believe.
Please, don't anyone here think that tears mean anything. There's only two ways to know the truth of a situation. One, the actions of the cheater will show if they are still cheating. And Two, the gut of the betrayed will tell them if they know what they need to know.
You know, in my mind, a teacher is a role model for a child, a guide through life, whether it's reading, writing and math, P's & Q's minding, and so on. FWIW, I think you are right to not trust the woman who went off with your spouse, no matter what the claim of their time together is...they still did it, both knowing he has a family and a wife. They made the choices to cross boundaries and again it's only me, but if Perv ever had a drink with one of the teacher's at DD's school, that would be enough for me to flip in and of itself.
I noticed after he had abandoned us and I became pregnant, when we were looking at baby names a few months ago, he was rather quick to remember one of the names I liked matching one of the flashier teachers at the school. I don't know if our senses are heightened, like we grow antennae, but it isn't something I forgot. I did notice one name I had matched a retiring teacher, and he did not point that out!
So anyway, I think you have a sound thought process, but what to do about it? It's easy to say, "just report her" and all of this and I agree they should know what she's been doing.
But I would tread carefully and think long and hard as you are, because we can't take things back, can we? We live in a really small town, too-there aren't even stop lights or stores-and luckily the school staff has people who don't live here, but gossip is still gossip.
I've heard some leaks when I worked there and they were staff that signed hippa forms, too!
I wish you luck in finding out what to do. I don't know if it's helpful, but the principal at DD's school is quite receptive to helping parents. Maybe something like asking her how to report a "confidential problem" could be a way to start. It's also my thought that being in touch with OW herself won't be much good and may have it's own "ramifications", like if she got uppity and decided to retaliate.
And I'm sorry for your hard time but also relieved to hear it sounds like you don't believe the PBS version of what your WH told you about the trip(s).
Alcohol and hotel rooms and hand-holding only? Nah, I don't buy it either. I'm sorry.
A person is a person, no matter how small. -Dr. Suess
It's not a nice mix, is it?
I'm really impressed you are getting remorse, with the NPD and surprised about the hand holding with the SA description. I'm sorry, it doesn't fit and makes me worry what truths you are getting.
I don't want to be a wet blanket, but I really hope the A is all done-I was tricked, so maybe am oversensitive or suspicious, but I don't know.
And FWIW, when he pretended to R and then the true colors came out, anything and everything I said during R is being torn apart and used against me now. Any remorse I ever got is/was fake.
NPD and remorse are ... rare. And I hope they are true for you.
...where they had flirted and started to get physical, spending evenings in each other's hotel rooms and drinking wine. He told me that they only cuddled on the bed and held hands,
At a school event as a chaporone, being caught in another chaporone's room drinking would be the huge offense. Once you are in there a little sex is nothing. The step to the first kiss is typically much greater (and longer in time) than the step from kiss to sex.
Not that it really matters at this point I guess as betrayal is betrayal, and he is working on R with you. I know FWW has not told me the whole truths either and I figure I know enough and she can keep her secrets. They eat away at her more than me.
[This message edited by atsenaotie at 3:46 PM, June 5th (Wednesday)]
her reply was that she would not be guilt-tripped and if I didn't want my kids to be taught by her I should do what I saw fit.
Seems as though she has given you advice and permission to do whatever you want to do. I think she is banking on you not exposing. Go ahead and tell the principal/school master that you don't want her as their teacher. He/She will most likely ask you why and then just be honest.
How your H responds may reveal more important information to help you make your decisions.
But he has sworn nothing more happened, on the lives of our children, so I have to accept it.
You do NOT have to accept it.
FWH swore on his beloved mother's recently deceased soul that they never touched, when they in fact had sex twice.
I know you WANT to believe it to move forward, but you ARE being Trickle Truthed here. He may even be thinking that he's sparing you heartbreak by not telling you these details, but it is cowardice at the root of his motivations.
Please. PLEASE believe us. Nobody has wine in a hotel room away from their spouses and "almost" kisses but doesn't.
I don't want to upset you - I want you to live in the light of truth. He's going to say anything he can to protect himself, maybe even to protect her. LISTEN to your gut.
In Europe apparently, they did spend evenings in the hotel together, sitting on the bed, talking and drinking wine, but there was only a moment when they looked at each other and almost kissed (but didn't). I also left out the fact that my son was on the Europe trip too, which I have to admit made me even more upset they had been in each other's hotel rooms and that she did stuff like sleep with her head on his shoulder on the plane when my son and his friends could have walked by at any time.
If they were so bold as to let her sleep with her head on his shoulder where anybody could see, why do you think they wouldn't be MORE bold behind the closed doors of a hotel room?
Wine, bed, talking, but nothing more? That takes a great deal of trust to believe, do you have that kind of trust in him?
- What if she is asked to chaperone a trip that your children choose to take in the future? The school should know that she was not a responsible chaperone - that in fact she was using the children's trip to conduct an affair. I don't know if I'm alone in this, but why are the chaperones drinking wine while being the only two adults in charge of a group of children? In our neck of the woods that's totally forbidden, and in fact we have to sign agreements that will will not be impaired at any time while traveling. What if there had been an emergency?
- Also consider that this teacher might talk to others in the school, formulating a preemptive story that casts herself in a victim's light. The last thing you want is for a rumor to start that your children's friends or your children's other teachers might hear. By telling the principal and other administrators, you're ensuring that she cannot easily come up with a preemptive story to cast blame solely on your WH, or imply he was a predator, or sexually harassing her. By telling the truth first, and openly, as embarrassing as that might be, you are helping to keep a light on the dark corners that might otherwise harbor her inner cockroach-like tendencies.
As far as your WH's version of events, "the truth" was also sworn by my FWH on the lives of our children. But it wasn't the truth. He's horrified and filled with shame about that now. For a while he denied ever making such an oath. But years later he admitted that he remembered when he said this, swearing on our child's life to convince me of a lie. I'm not saying your WH is the same, but that if you ever feel a niggle in your gut about his story, do investigate further.
her reply was that she would not be guilt-tripped and if I didn't want my kids to be taught by her I should do what I saw fit.
I honestly feel that you should contact the principal of the school. It sounds as though your WH has laid the groundwork to corroborate the inappropriate behaviour by leaving the school, and it does not sound as though she denied the affair. She probably thinks you won't expose her.
ETA: This happened to a married colleague of mine. No one thought that she was being cute or romantic by pretending that she was a teenager and going after a married colleague. Everyone gossiped about her and thought she'd lost her mind.
[This message edited by tryingagain74 at 8:33 PM, June 5th (Wednesday)]
Sweet, my ex tried to pull the same bullsh*t story on me, about them sharing a hotel room but having no physical contact, and blah blah blah. He even swore on the LIFE of his sainted mother who was undergoing cancer treatment and had a 50-50 chance of surviving.
Cheaters LIE. And then they SWEAR to it on their own children's lives, their parent's lives, and any other thing they CAN to get you to believe their pitiful lies.
There's much more to this story than you've been told, as everyone else here whose already LIVED this nightmare has already tried to explain to you in this thread. We all see a little of ourselves in you because we all wanted to believe our WS's too, when they lied and said nothing had happened. Then, when the real truth came out, it was devastating all over again.
Sooner or later, the truth WILL come out - especially if you start pushing for it.
Wishing you strength.
Walk a Mile In My Shoes
Married 14 yrs. Now Separated & in NC
2 grown DD's - his from previous M
4 grown kids (2DS, 2DD) mine from previous M