Ats, if you have definitely decided to D, and the only thing that is holding you back is that WW is currently unemployed, you need a plan B. Perhaps she can stay with one of her daughters until she gets employment? Are your DS's still in their teens?
At this point, I think you know it's no longer about her A's, it's her emotional problems and possible personality disorders (or strong traits). You know she has worked on herself as much as she is able. You have worked so very hard too. But, I think at this point you have to decide if you are going to live with this forever.
It's hard, I know. Especially when you come to realize that she really can't help it, but that does not excuse the behavior or mean you have to put up with it. The only thing you can acknowledge that it really isn't personal or an attack on you, although it damn well feels like it!!!
With my mother who is BPD, I love her, I know deep down she is a good person with good morals BUT, our relationship is toxic to me. She was sucking me emotionally dry to the point there was nothing left of me. I had to remove myself as much as possible for survival.
I'm so sorry Ats. I've read your stories over the years and I feel like I know Mrs Ats. I know she has worked as hard as she could and I believe she is remorseful. I believe she is basically a good person and has a lot of good qualities. But, it won't be enough, I'm afraid. Living with a BPD is spiritually and emotionally draining.
Have you forgiven her yet so YOU can go on?
I'm glad you came here to vent. YOu have helped all of us so much, it's good we can be here for you.
[This message edited by honesttoafault at 3:29 PM, June 10th (Monday)]
I would love to know how the in-house separation works for you.
It sucked in the beginning because I still hadn't let go of the feelings tied to the M or my STBX. Detaching helped greatly with that. Once I actually filed and the process was started I decided that I had to make a change in myself no matter what. So I set about killing all old feelings for the M and my STBX by doing things I wanted to do. It was painful at first but it is like a pain that you forget you are having over time and one day you wake up and realize that you are detached.
I consider myself lucky relative to some stories here on SI because my STBX was a shitty W but she is a decent mother so even if she no longer cares about me she still loves the kids so I focused on that. We kept their routines in place and I pretty much made sure I never spoke to her or was never in the house with her unless I absolutely had to be. It was weird at first but she eventually got the message. I bit my tongue on several occasions just because it wasn't worth the argument or waking up the "drama llama" when I only had a few more months to go. Once you set your mind to things being done and take those first few steps towards D then at least for me reality set in and I just dealt with it. I don't mean for that to sound negative but once I put my mind to something I don't stop. That was part of my problem with letting go. I eventually got tired of the rejection and the drama and the switch flipped and I put all my energy into me. If it was my day to do things with the kids I did it, if it was her day she did it. I stopped checking her phone, stopped caring about who she called, who she was texting, where she was going, and focused completely on me. Why worry about her cheating again, she had already cheated before and was unremorseful so she could do it again and I wouldn't know so I assume she is and stopped looking and moved on with my life.
I basically started living like I was single with kids while she was in the house.
It was painful at first. I am halfway ashamed to say this but it has been a long time since I had to wash clothes and even cook for myself. I mean I did it on occasion but not 100% of the time so I started doing all that stuff for me like I lived alone. My STBX was still willing to do it but I started doing it myself just to get myself used to it again. I just did stuff for me and the kids and that was it. Any changes to the routine we ran by each other and adjusted accordingly. if she wanted to go out she did and just asked if i had plans and I told her if i had plans in advance as well. For me it was all about removing emotion from teh equation when it came to STBX. I will have to deal with her going forward since we have 50/50 custody so I tried to live like that while were still in the house together.
It's completely doable even with an unremoresful spouse. Just keep detaching and focusing on you. At some point the continued disrespect or in my case the blatant outright rejection became to much and I had enough and decided to change things.
The key for me was knowing I had a finite end to the situation. Once the date was in place I just focused on that date and whenever I got pissed I just kept thinking only a few more months, a few more weeks, and now a few more days until she is gone and I never have to deal with her in this manner again. I get my life back.
I don't know if I answered your question or helped, if not let me know. The specifics of our daily routine were the same since our kids are still small and in school. When I detached and looked back, we had been living seperate lives for years, I just didn't know it. So I just kept right on living separate lives but just turned it up a bit for me by actually doing things I wanted to again.
I took some info to the lawyer last week so she can file the official agreement and custody arrangement with the courts which means the clock starts ticking on my 1 year of "official" S in 10 days when STBX moves out. Then I have to wait 1 year and I will be legally free again.
[This message edited by 7yrsflushed at 3:58 PM, June 10th (Monday)]
Straight out of the BPD handbook. She thinks you are wanting to hide her because you suggested she might want to stay home because you knew she might get bored. You were having a great weekend and she felt ignored. This is where the rage started. You being loud or her perception you were loud was just a spark that set the rage in motion. It is easy to see in hindsight but it all sneaks up on you in real life. Of course sometimes there is no sign of these things even with hindsight.
I find it interesting that she asked to be allowed to come back and get you. My W would have used the same words had she done this. To me it shows she knows she did screw up and said that to be contrite.
Like Honest, I know this is really not about the A. The A does complicate or pollute our thinking though. She felt ignored? Well boohoo. Damn! Lets see now. Have you ever felt ignored or left out? We all have had that kick in the ass. As much as she has worked and tried, she still does not get it.
As for 'Love Must be Tough' by Dobson....if you can set aside the religious aspect of the book I think that it gives very good advice as to how to implement the 180 and the author also gives some very good explanations as to why the 180 is a far better approach to take with a remorseless WS-especially one that is still in contact with the AP.
Even though Dobson believes in marriage he also understands how destructive it is for the BS to endure staying in a marriage with a WS that continues to betray the BS.
He also describes how trying to 'nice' the WS back into the marriage backfires and causes them to pull away even more.
My FWH went NC with OW right after d-day but I did kick him out and we were separated for 6 months.
This book along with 'Not Just Friends' and 'How Can I Forgive You' was very valuable in helping me through that time period.
i would think the hardest part to learn would be to separate yourself from it when you know its the disorder and not her, and with mental illness i would think that at times it would be close to impossible to tell which it is....because after all her mental illness is as much a part of her as beathing, making her who she is.....
to separate yourself and not take it personally because it has nothing to do with you or your actions, but her inability to "cope" with what she "percieves"......perceptions are reality
7 years....again i read your posts and wonder, are you my twin brother from another mother .......
and i agree with the more you separate "yourself", the easier it gets, even when the ws is still an asshole....whenever pfm puts on his asshole hat, it keeps me propelled forward, its sometimes hard to see the end goal through all the muck.....but i keep an inner dialogue going reminding myself what that goal is and just how i will get there
unlike you though my end is still a bit a ways down the road, but that road is shorter now then it was a year ago, and the even shorter then it was the year before that.....and the closer i get, the more excited i actually find myself, excited to embark on a new journey......slight trepidation though, because the asshole hat that pfm wears will probably stay put on his head and the road will be full of potholes, broken water mains that will threaten to drown me, but i will persevere, keeping that inner dialogue going, propelling me to my end goal, and for me it is a goal! because i hope that goal will lead me to a new journey, a much happier, peaceful one.....
(((heart))) oh my, reading your entire post, i had a smile on my face, how far you have come is so evident, you sound so much stronger, i believe you might have reached a bit of a pivotal moment...i hear a resolve in your post that i didn't hear before, so as much as your are still living in crazy, you are not getting lost within it anymore, you are taking steps that are right for you
now to address being a child of divorce...i am one of those children...my parents divorced when i was 3 or 4, my dad left my mom for her sister, whom he married...talk about a sick sich....anyways....i think i turned out fine, i actually like who i am, granted it might have affected my choice in a husband....but i am proud of who i am,...on the flip side i look at my husband...his parents are still married and all of his siblings and him are all "off"........they are not the nicest of people and all have some major issues, some more then others....
basically coming from a home of divorce does not mean that the kids will turn out bad, nor does it mean that the kids will turn out good...
it all comes down to the parents doing parenting....my friends who are divorced, the ones that there dd got hit by the car.....oh my gosh....they are amazing parents and ALL of their kids are turning out wonderful....2 of them are in college doing very well, the last is in high school also doing well....do they have problems...of course....all people have problems, all people have issues, its how they choose to handle the issues and problems that makes a person!!!
i look at pfm and how he chose to handle his issues and problems....well he has mental problems......thats what a 2 parent house has landed him....
dr phil always says.."a child would rather come from a broken home, then live in one"..... and i agree!!!!
broken parent people make broken kids who grow up to be broken people......when a parent chooses to repair oneself, chooses to admit the wrongs and fix them, chooses to be a parent and not a friend, chooses to parent from a place of love and support the child will turn out like most of us, we still make bad choices, but overall we are good people, it is what you do with the choices you make that make you who you are....unlike most of our ws, (NOT ALL)....who keep making the same poor choices, committing the same acts...making choices that hurt others, making choices that affect lives.....and next is for all of us...crazy is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different.....you want different, you need to do different... and when you take those steps, that is doing different, that is taking steps toward a happier life
ok....i think i need to step off my soapbox now...
and i forgot everything else that i wanted to address.....i know there was another post i wanted to address...oh well...maybe later when i go over it....
and hi dip and sister....really really nice to "see" you both
have an awesome day tribe
i want cabana boy's!!!!
warm and dry place......
H&C and 7years.. I admire you.
NJgal.. you have a strength about you and one fine woman in about everyway.
I could say something about each and everyone of you but work calls.... I thank you all for you helping me. Seek peace with actions...
So... spent hours making art, poems and all... about my feelings. I wrote a journal that was pages and pages about all my feelings. Today was one more step that needed to take. I destroyed them all.
Peace to you and talk to ya later!
[This message edited by trynhard at 9:46 AM, June 12th (Wednesday)]
....because after all her mental illness is as much a part of her as beathing, making her who she is.....
Do you really think this miracle?
I think it's separate. Something she has a responsibility to mangage and treat.
so yes its a part of who she is, and its a part of her that she can learn to manage, but first she needs to acknowledge that she has this illness and then she needs to cooperate with the professionals who treat her...and along with all of that she has to fall back on bad habits and bad coping skills...and this stage of her life it probably is what it is, because she doesn't seem to want to make more out of "what it is"
with mental illness its really hard to separate and "see" what is the disease and what is not the disease i think. her illness limits her capabilities...doesn't mean she isn't capable but that she isn't capable enough in certain sich's....
and really that is true for all of us if you think about it....we are all a product of our parents, our schools, our friends and life experiences....its what you do with all of that that determines much of how you handle life
life is always going to have its challenges, it is all about how we meet them, cope with them and move on....
it is what it is until you make it what it can become...
none of us made the choices that landed us here....but we took those choices that our ws's made and we are trying to learn how to live with them the best way we know how, learning from others, drawing support from each other...
so we took what is (they cheated) and we are making it what it can become ( for each of us its different, but we are all here for help to make it better) (we are not just rollin over and lettin it be)
some of our ws's took what is....they cheated, and some of them are working at making themselves better at being spouses, taking steps so that they don't make those same bad choices...some are not and continue to make the same poor choices, so for them life will continue to deteriorate, they are not making the most of their lives and learning from their past behaviors....kwim
damn i am long winded...so i think i need to shut up now...sorry for going on and on....
just remember mental illness will only define you if you don't do anything to "manage it"....its always a part of who you are, and how much you allow it to define your choices....or even how capable you are at defining and making choices....
lips buttoned now
Tuesday WH and I were invited to the beach (where he and OP used to meet up) to hear a band play on Friday. Friday also happens to be OP's birthday and the reunion party for the company they used to work for together. I passed along the invitation to WH and he said no, it was a bad idea. That I would be a wreck and he would be uncomfortable. I told him that I was already a wreck because I knew what Friday was, and suggested that instead of going to the beach, that he take the day off work, or even half a day, and we can start Father's Day weekend early. He blew me off, then came home in a really bad mood trying to pick a fight with me and DD.
I decided to do something I hadn't done in a while and scope out OP's FB. She changed her privacy settings so she was invisible, which is what she does when she is pissed at WH... sad that I know this. She turned it back on last night with a post saying "I'm amazed to learn how completely disposable I am."
I am left with the conclusion that I ruined plans for them to meet up at the reunion party/for her birthday.
On my birthday, he was sending her pictures of the view from the restaurant we were at.
I am shaking so bad right now. I want to confront him. I want to pack up my shit and say I don't care if DD has to change schools, I'm leaving. Maybe leave the state altogether and go back home to my family. And yet... I don't want to ruin his Father's Day. How f'd up is that? I bought him a private flight lesson in a Cessna - it has always been one of his dreams. But I couldn't buy him a card, not while thinking about the 'mother of my child' card he got me. Not when all the cards talk about being a good dad starts with being a good man.
I could really use some advice.
[This message edited by DecimatedHeart at 11:03 AM, June 13th (Thursday)]
All my posts are edited - I hate typos. :)
No real advice here, just want to let you know that we all feel for you.
Well, now that I think about it, can you get a refund on that lesson? and spend it on you? let your DD give something to your WH for Father's day...
why are people such sh*ts?
don't do anything from a place of anger!!
and maybe i am missin something, but isn't that fact that she feels disposable a good thing!!!...and why she feels disposable could be any number of things.....
confronting will prob not get you the answers you seek either....
give him his rope to either use to climb out of his hole or to hang from....take a couple of steps back, breathe and collect your thoughts
and figure out what kind of answers you will look for and whether or not he is capable of giving them to you....
be ready for all possible answers and what you would do with the information he gives you or doesn't give you!!!
and above all, take care of you!!! you have health issues that need to take the front seat....
as for the Father's Day gift....do what you feel is best...with what you can live with....whichever gives you the least regret....and as for the card...don't sweat it....its part of his newfound bed he has chosen with his past choices.....whether or not this will become his permament bed is yet to be determined by you and by his actions.....
do his actions speak.....of course they do.....you just need to let them...sit back and let him take the reins of his choices....i believe only then will you ever be comfortable with whatever choice you then make....
so either he steps up or you decide that he has or hasn't stepped up enough for you to be comfortable within the marriage....
and always always take time before making any decisions.....stop and breathe and think it through...its sooooo soooo easy to react upon the moment instead of for the future.....
i too am guilty of reactin in the moment....and i am usually not happy that i didn't take a moment to really organize my thoughts and my intentions...
WH#2 was actually great during this hospital stay. I know he did not bring OW to my home (VAR) or see her while I was in the hospital. He was home or at work the whole time he wasn't with me. All the VAR picked up was his snoring (first time I was happy to hear it) and his calls to me. This gives me hope that he is really NC with her now and has not taken it underground again. Even though we are not in R, it does give me some hope that he is trying to not hurt me again. His drinking however did not improve any and he got drunk last night after he brought me home from the hospital as usual. If his A is not the ultimate deal breaker, I am afraid his drinking will be as I can't put up with it much longer and feel that it will ultimately lead to another A. Thanks to everyone that kept me in their prayers this week!!!!
Jack - thank you! It means the world to me. I am so grateful for you all.
and maybe i am missin something, but isn't that fact that she feels disposable a good thing!!!...and why she feels disposable could be any number of things.....
Yes and no. It means when push came to shove and he couldn't have both, he chose me, for Friday anyway. But I have seen her pull this manipulative crap so many times I have lost count, and it feeds into his KISA big time... See how broken and hurt I am nonsense. And he falls for it every time and just HAS to see if she is okay... But yes, it does mean he chose not to go to the party.
He admitted he was pissy because he wanted to go, even though he never mentioned it to me - I only knew because I saw it posted on FB. But he claims he didn't think she was going to be there, and that he only forgot to mention it because he 'wasn't thinking about it 24/7.' I don't believe him for a minute, on either count. All her closest friends are going to be there... It's her birthday... Possibility of WH showing up... Even if it wasn't pre-planned, which I still believe it was, there is a high probability of her being at that party.
If he was remorseful at all, cared about my feelings at all, I shouldn't have even had to ask him to spend time with us instead. I certainly shouldn't have had to hear him whining about 'everybody asking' if he is going. Made me feel like when DD says 'but all my friends are going to be there!' He should have known it would hurt me, he should have made the right choice on his own, not just because I figured it out.
I keep telling myself to 180, not to care, to just keep planning for the worst, even if deep down I am still hoping for the best. But days like today... It hurts beyond anything I could imagine and I don't know how much more I can take...
[This message edited by DecimatedHeart at 5:01 PM, June 13th (Thursday)]
DH: Take a deep breath. I know how hard the emotions can hit us. They can hit us so badly that we cannot seem to think logically. Miracle is right. Don't make decisions with your emotions.
You need to sit back and think with your head as much as possible. I know how hard this is, so keep posting. Keep getting feedback to help you.
As for the Father's Day present.... ahhhh I would have done the same As Ats says, you can't Nice yourself back into the marriage. If you want to do this for WH, then do it, but don't expect him to realize how wonderful you are and change his behavior. Don't worry about a card!!! He doesn't deserve one! If your DD wants to make a card, by all means, but don't worry about you buying him one.
And the hell with your worrying about ruining his Father's Day!!
Yes, DH, plan for the worst. Get those ducks in a row. Start to make a plan. I know how hard it is when you are in so much pain.
As for me, NPD was supposed to come back next Friday so he could be here for DS's HS graduation. Well he calls to say he can't make it because of business, but will come in a few weeks with the OW and OC's. DS says it doesn't bother him. I'm actually relieved because I feel I've been given a reprieve for a while.
I thought I was able to make a decision of "not divorcing" for a while there, but NPD kept changing the rules and the stakes.
I have made the decision to D. I just have to decide when. I know it will be before the end of the year.
I know I'll have financial devastation, but I can no longer live like this.
I have been reading the BM thread a lot lately. I see so much wisdom. Sadly, as a female I cannot belong but I relate to so much of what I read there.
A thought for tonight:
BS's spend way too many years fixing problems that only existed in the cheating mind of their WS
One of WAL's gems, as someone else there said, Pure Gold.
After dday so many of us want to make the M better. But we don't have the issues. The WSs do. The only way the M can recover is if THEY do. Those WSs who convince themselves that the problem is in the M, not them, will never be worth keeping.
It is quite simply up to the WS to fix their issues.
They have to have the WILL to do it and they have to find the WAY. We cannot do it for them. We can help and encourage but it has to be what THEY want.
HUGS to all
[This message edited by Laura28 at 7:52 AM, June 14th (Friday)]
Laura Ė BINGO!!! WAL is, as usual, spot on. We stare at ourselves, wondering what it is that is wrong with us and what we did to make the WS stray. Fact is itís not us, itís them.
Well, Iím back and trying to come to terms with my motherís death. Just the fact that sheís not here. No more ďhey, Iíll give Mum a ring and ask herÖÖ.Ē I went off on one at fWH last night Ė told him how much I hate MOW and how much I would like her to drive her car under a 40-ton truck and obliterate herself and that I shouldnít feel like that because what I should feel is pity. I could feel my voice getting tighter as I ranted on. He said precisely nothing in response. He made a reference to my grief over my motherís death and I told him that nothing feels the same anymore. He has blunted my emotions, scarred me to the point where I donít feel much at all. I have to keep defences up because I donít trust him. He says MOW is ďexpungedĒ from his heart. Thanks, that little phrase tells me she was in his heart. Frankly, I donít give a fuck anymore. I have other things to think about, although his affair is never far from my crazy mind.
My brother stayed on at Mumís house for another night. I am 90% sure he met up with his old gf again. Convenient now he can have the house to himself and she can come in the back way without being seen and he doesnít have to explain himself to Mum when he goes off for a few hours. He said he will continue to go to ___ [village] in years to come Ė I thought, yeh, I bet I know why too. Idiot. Heís been married for 28yrs and has three kids. Sheís been married about the same and has five kids.
Rant over. Iím just so tired and donít want to deal with probate and solicitors and banks and crap. Iíd give it all to charity. Or to someone really poor who would appreciate it.
Iíve been thinking about the 80/20 rule. Paretoís law says that 20% provides the margin while the 80% provides the humdrum day to day. And thatís how I think of myself and MOW. I was meeting 80% of WHís needs on a day to day basis, his basic requirements. MOW gave him the 20% missing and that 20% was actually worth MORE to him than my 80%, she had more value. Or so he thought. But if you lose the 80%, you are left relying on the 20% which isnít enough and not guaranteed. Am I making sense? Rambling again, my brain wonít stop.
Iím sorry, I donít have time to read. I just needed to get this out Iíll try a catchup in this new thread. I think I can manage two pages.
Hugs to yíall. Missed being here.
DH, everything will be fine. It's always hard to see when you are in the middle of the storm but from the outside looking in your posts show your strength and growth even if you don't see it right now. So keep it up you are doing great.
As for the Father's Day gift, I struggled with Mother's day this year for my STBX. Decisions like that used to bother me. I felt guilty about getting something or not getting something. I decided to cut myself some slack, think about what I was doing before I did it, and if I still chose to do it I would. I would ask myself why I was doing what I was doing and as long as I could honestly say to myself it wasn't to get a reaction or some expected outcome that I was trying to control then I was okay with it.
Eventually when I asked myself the question the response was there really is no need for me to do whatever I was thinking of doing and I just left it alone. I was starting to focus more on my actions than her reactions to what I was doing. Why was I doing something and did it really serve a purpose that was conducive to me moving forward? Were my actions done to solicit a response? Would it negatively impact either of our relationships with the children? Was it going to put me in a financial burden or negative emotional state if I do this? That was my mindset when trying to break my emotional ties. Eventually it just turned to one question in my head, do the kids benefit from me doing this? If the answer was no I didn't do it. If the answer was yes I did it. the key was I tried to take my emotions out of the equation.
Eventually you will get to a point where the decisions to do or not do something become easier. The more an unremorsful WS keep showing you exactly who they are the closer you get to indifference. For me anyway it got worse the closer I got because each rejection stabbed deeper than the last and eventualy I got to a point where I said that's it. A good metaphor would be I was the mouse and my WS was the Cat with the cheese. This sounds weird but in my case it was true. The cheese could be a conversation, "crumbs", me asking her why again, a trigger, or any number of things that always left me hurt, angry, and emotionally drained. I had such a tough time detaching that I basically had to allow my unremorseful WS's repeated actions to train me to stop reaching out. Here's the cheese 7yrs come get it, SMACK! I get pissed off but a week or so later I started smelling cheese again until I learned it wasn't the cheese I needed to be wary of it was the metaphorical SMACK that came after it. That's when you realize you had the control all along because no one was making me reach out. All I had to do was stop and she could no longer hurt me.
That was just a long way of saying I get it and keep at it. I was the poster child for staying to long with an unremorseful WS and I survived so just know it gets better and just keep moving forward. Your WH may wake up or he may not but you and you DD will get through this just fine either way.