I would love to hear from some of our "oldies" on here about that "aha" moment when you finally realized what was going on in your M.
aha? I am not sure I can say it was any one moment in time, any one single topic, emotion, or event.
I suppose it was this…
A time when I realized, understood, the real meaning of love.. both from a physical and emotional standpoint. Wife, you are never again going to treat me unfairly, unloving, unaffectionately, And my courage is way stronger than my fears. Conflict is going to happen.. every time should you behave badly.. no more running, hiding, or burying… you don’t like it.. please, the door is right there. A place I was not in and should have been when my wife failed me.
My own long term happiness is base on what I DO… not what anyone else does. Wife, I set the rules and you can make the choice to live by them or not. Consequences will never again be based in fear… it will be more like Passenger’s song - Let Her Go... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBumgq5yVrA
Yes, you cannot change what others decide to do or who they want to be.
When I realized I was not being a masculine man, a leader, a teacher like a man should be…not some feminized man is seems going against what some in society are trying to teaching us.
When I understood what forgiving was and is...
When I now realize from my soul evil happens.. even to me… and to now accept it and say, “So what”.. People are going to trespass on me. To look at my past as only guidance, experience, learning what to do or not do into the future and that will protect me and my emotions. Yes, life is not always fair… not just words anymore like before… but understanding from the deepest part of my being.
Love always protects.. I do it in my marriage at all times…even when feelings are telling me to do opposite… and this new love I was never taught by my parents. If my own love love fails, the fault and negative consequence fall totally on me… and I will be a man about it… and work to the best of my ability to get back on the loving track.
Anyway.. I have an aunt who was told yesterday that she has terminal leukemia and only weeks to live. Not months, but weeks. It brought tears to my eyes to know this lovely woman will soon no longer be a part of my physical world. She made the most surprising statement something that I had long forgotten. My aunts only pregnancy in her life, a son, who died at birth….. “I will finally get to talk to my baby.” And she is going to fight for as much time as she has on this earth.
[This message edited by trynhard at 9:18 AM, July 12th (Friday)]
I doubt his choice of locations was anything more than just familiarity and convenience.
You should not expect him to think of you at all.
You should not expect him to think of you at all.
Thank you Allgood. I believe you are right. I had a knee jerk reaction and put feelings and emotions into something he did when he had no feeling or emotions about me at all. Nor was he thinking of me at all.
I was thinking all morning about my own codependent behavior and my expectations of NPD acting normal or even semi normal. To have some respect or common courtesy for me and if I acted nice and caring and loving and understanding, he would too, he would be kind and respectful.
I do have a right to be upset about this. But I can't expect him to even slightly understand or validate how I'm feeling.
I am detaching! I need to celebrate!
Tryn: It's so good to hear from you. You always have that good message about working on yourself to be the best you can be.
I'm really sorry to hear about your aunt. I will keep her and your family in my thoughts and prayers.
I can not put it any better than what iwam did:
there is absolutely no point....its not even to stick up for yourself....because it really matters not.....stick up for yourself by not letting it get to you....
It is like trying to rationalize or explain to a mosquito that is biting you or a fly buzzing you. While it annoys and can hurt you, there is no intent on the part of the bug other than to do what comes natural. It is too bad that DEET is not also effective on NPD
"The eyes see only what the mind is prepared to comprehend."
This is so true. FWW contracted herpes from OM a year before dday. She told me that Dr. told her that it must have been dormant for the 20+ years we were dating and M'd. Or that I had a symptomless herpes infection, and had infected her years earlier with it remaining dormant (we were not having any sex at that point, had not for over a year). I went online and found information that collaborated those explanations. After dday I when I knew the truth that she had contracted it from OM, I went back to look for that collaborating information. I never found it, I had seen what I wanted to see and interpreted information they way I wanted to believe.
about that "aha" moment when you finally realized what was going on in your M.
My final aha was when FWW came home from a trip to visit a relative. While she was gone OM sent her a Facebook message that copied to her email I was monitoring that said "miss you, wish that you were here. XOXOXO" For a "mentor" and co-worker this was unusual, so I checked her phone when she got home late and fell asleep immeadiately. I found suggestive texting and references to sexting on her phone between her and her bil. She had been texting with her bil about the clothes she was trying on in dressing rooms, he was asking about more pictures and if he could call her. I realized then the suspicions I had in 2007 about an OM, and my suspicions about her current OM were true. I started pushing her hard for explanations. Late one night while we were talking she got a text on her phone and said it was her DD. The next day I looked it up on the phone website and saw it was from OM. This convinced me there was an inappropriate A with OM, why else would she have lied about the text? She admitted she was spending too much time with OM, had flirted, but denied sex. After more pushing, she eventually told me that they had had sex, and that she had sex with the previous OM also. It would be 6 months until I got an indication of the true scope of her A and the regular meetings, sex, and plans. After dday I began to truly understand who I was M’d too. The sexual abuse and rape, the FOO issues, the alcoholic parent, the borderline personality traits… I was not prepared for my M, and had spent the better part of 2 decades blaming myself for my W being unhappy.
I'd love to hear too what were some of the obvious signs that you ignored.
As for ignored signs, I was the poster boy for obtuse. In 2007 I saw the many calls (text was not so common, she did not have a good texting phone) between FWW and a former co-worker who was her OM at the time. She would defend him when I talked about him being an ass at work, and she would do errands like picking him up at the airport on a Saturday afternoon rather than do a family event. I asked her about an A, she denied and told me that I was “broken”, that she was about finished with our M. With her last OM there were so many calls and texts back and forth that it makes one wonder how they got any work done. There was a hint one night from my step-daughter (FWW went ballistic). There were the new nails, new panties, new bras, working out, doing yoga, hair styling, weight loss, and never wanting to do anything with me. There was no sex for years. There was taking baths and running the laundry as soon as she would get home some days. Her emails, texts, and Facebook were always deleted. I do not know what more signs I could have missed.
Nell asked how I was doing, and I am not sure how to answer. We were going to S & D in November, we have been going to MC the last month or so. I used to use activities I was involved in like gardening and fishing as analogies to explain my struggles with the aftermath of dday. Today it is like my boat. Last fall (about the antiversary of dday), thieves broke in to where I store my boat. They took parts of the engine, the instruments, and caused a great deal of collateral damage. While they were on the surveillance tape, there was no hoping of catching them or any justice. Insurance is never as much as you need, and so I was left doing nearly the entire repair work myself. It took months. I had to learn how to do things, develop expertise in areas I was not familiar with. Some things had to be re-done once or twice to get it right.
Now the boat is repaired, lots of new parts and seems to be working ok. The thing is, when I plan to take it out I feel anxiety. I no longer associate my boat with fun; I associate it with months of work to fix it. When I take it out there is little trust, I worry it will break-down on me offshore. I have towing insurance, and know how to prevent most things and to repair many more, but I am still anxious when I take it out. I worry something will break I cannot afford to fix. I think that I should sell my boat and be done with it before something else bad happens. I am not sure I can ever find comfort and relaxation in my boat again, that it will just be a vehicle from now on, something else to take care of. This is how my M feels.
[This message edited by atsenaotie at 2:01 PM, July 12th (Friday)]
I was feeling sooo very good today and positive.
my WH's cousin's wife had been texting me about the families going on a cruise next year and I told her I didn't know what will be happening. I realize that she might not know OW and OC's are here in the US and tell her. Then she told me that WH, OW and OC's were at a diner and had everyone there and she had gone not knowing they would be there. She told me OW looks like a dog.
Now I'm just crying. Why doesn't he just D me?
He has fully replaced me with everything.
I love his family. They have been so good to me. I'm an only child and they were my family.
I know I can keep relationships with them, but now he has chosen OW, she will be the one at family gatherings and holidays.
I know I can still see his aunt for lunch, etc. but I will no longer be part of the family.....not thier choice, but his.
Focus. On you.
fnf asked the ‘oldies’ to fill out her aha moment survey last page and I completely blanked it. Here are my answers:
I would love to hear from some of our ‘oldies’ on here about that ‘aha’ moment when you finally realized what was going on in your M.
There were quite a few other ‘aha, he’s cheating’ moments ending with a second Dday eight months after the first.
I’d love to hear too what were some of the obvious signs that you ignored.
The big one is my gut screaming at me for months that he was having an affair. I would search for clues and find nothing and tell my gut, “see, you’re wrong!” I even confronted him and asked if he was having an affair. He said he was not. He said he was having a mid-life crisis. I believed him. Never believe a liar. (Of course, I hadn’t caught him lying yet because I was still in the trusting wife mode. Also I didn’t have any tools to verify until I got to SI.) I never would have guessed that he was bonking Vajera, though. I mean, seriously?! Talk about affairing down.
He had lots of excuses to be gone for hours.
He turned me down for sex.
He would stay physically as far away from me as possible whenever we had to go anywhere together.
But he was always kind of a horse’s ass, so the way he was acting wasn’t a complete 180 for him. He was also a devious little fucker who left no cards, gifts, notes, etc. around for me to find. And Vajera hid and pretended right alongside him so that I wouldn’t find out. During the affair, the boyos and I would even go to his office, where she sat two cubicles away (convenient).
I also believe that Vajera wasn’t his first mistress. Some things I remember now, with my new ‘aha’ lenses are huge red Imacheater flags. Like when I was pregnant with Boyo1 after nine months of trying, and he asked if Boyo1 was his. When I was offended and asked why he would think such a thing, it was “because you don’t like sex”. (Um, we had been actively TRYING, as in having sex like rabbits all the time, because my
>men, look away<
menstrual cycle was wacky so I never knew when I would be ovulating.
>okay, men, it’s safe<
And, um, if I “didn’t like sex” then why would I be having it MORE?) That, my friends, is called projection; I thought it was assholiness.
Beyond the “he’s a cheater ‘aha’,” I had lots of “he’s a lousy husband ‘aha’” moments. Like discovering, with the help of my handy secret keylogger, that he constantly lied about porn use, about doing anything that I or MC asked, about what he had eaten for lunch… really, you name it and he lied about it. He did jack squat to make amends but demanded that I forgive him. He refused to do even the easiest things that I requested, but would do something different that I didn’t want and tell me I should be grateful. He thought he was more important than me, while also believing that I was better than him. Ugh. The whole marriage was just a clusterfuck!
That last paragraph is the reason I needed a divorce. I’m not sure if the A was a dealbreaker or not, but spending the next 40 years holding hands with a lying dumbass is well beyond my abilities.
tryn! It's you! Everything good?
I'm so sorry. You sound so defeated.
Well, it's nearly Glenfiddich time here in Nell's world. Hugs all around!
I'm so sorry when I read what you wrote, even though it is with humor. You are such an inspiration on how to rise above the horror and going on with such dignity, grace, and a wonderful sense of humor while being so caring and helpful to all of us.
You are right, NPD was shoving the OC's and OW down his family's throat. They had all told me they did not want to meet OW, but he forced the issue.
That decision to do that is what has made me decide once and for all it's over. No turning back. Another promise he broke. He promised he wouldn't do that when he was telling me he was going to bring them here.
No respect. That is what has done it. Not an iota. He'll have a million and one excuses about wanting the OC's to meet "their" family and couldn't take them without OW, blah blah
I'm really upset.
nell, reading your last post....hit a few notes for me....although unlike most other ws's...my ws couldn't get enough sex from me or them... ....and he is remorseful even though he is not GENUINE,,,he still lies, still has same habits ...and still tells me once to 10 times a week that he is sorry and wants to work it out, combined with his "just tell me what to do and i will do it"...the last time he gave me that line i looked at him and said, the one thing i told you to do, the biggest thing...YOU STILL DO!! you LIE.....
its tiring....this is the man who doesn't give up on what he wants....and i am supposed to also believe that with his ow's...he did give up and not push... i am so thankful that i now find it laughable!!
honest..i agree with allgood...
step away from the NPD (and i "hear" it said like a car alarm)
are you aware of how many times you have said "this is it", "i am done", "this is the real d-day"
and then you rinse and repeat....its time dear heart...no more rinsing, no more repeats...GET ANGRY...
THAT BASTARD BROUGHT HIS OTHER WIFE, NOT WOMAN, HIS WIFE AND HIS KIDS WITH THIS WIFE...AND WANTS YOU, REALLY WANTS YOU TO ACCEPT IT....THAT BASTARD IS PUNISHING YOU BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT ACCEPTING IT AS EASY AS HE WOULD LIKE...THAT BASTARD BROUGHT HER HERE...THAT BASTARD BLAMES YOU...THAT BASTARD IS THE BIGGEST BASTARD PERIOD!!!!!!!!!
and he is going to keep upping the ante...and put yourself in his shoes...he has nothing to lose because you are still there...in his eyes you are still there doing it all for him..and he has no reason to believe it will ever be otherwise until....UNTIL you finally serve him with papers...because until you serve him and don't back down, he has no reason to believe otherwise, not to mention he is NOT EVER EVER GOING TO CHANGE...he doesn't want to change, doesn't think he needs to change and thinks you are the problem..the bitch who won't just let it ALL BE!!!!
GET FUCKING ANGRY!!!!
REALLY REALLY ANGRY!!!
and let it fuel you....
Honest- Miracle is right about everything! Get angry! He is wrong, wrong, wrong in everything he is doing and everything that he has done. He is toxic and damaging to you and to your sons.You are already seeing signs of this damage. You said your son failed every single subject in school? And this was the boy that a few years ago was doing so well in school etc.
This is a glaring sign that he is NOT ok with what is going on!!
Your children's emotional well being is much more important than finances.
You need to move forward and D NPD! Do not wait for him to do it! You need to save yourself and your children from this evil man.
He has made his choice and it is the OW/wifetress and the OC.
And yes...you may lose touch with his family members too.
It does not matter. What matters is you, and your sons.
That is the family that matters.
All of you deserve to have a happy, peaceful, NORMAL, life.
It might be hard at first. But, you can do it.
You are stronger than you think.
Your older sons will help you.
There are community resources to help you get on your feet at first.
One step at a time....
think of every step as one more step to freedom and to a happy life.
Well- in my case I recognized that my FWH was behaving badly-even worse than usual.
He was extremely angry, grouchy, unhappy, detached, depressed, drinking every day after work.
His negative attitude extended to our children as well.
He was unhappy with everything.
At the time we were also dealing with a few huge family problems and our daughter's health issue.
But, even with that going on ..his toxic attitude was not justified.
I actually asked him for a divorce 2 yrs before d-day!
Obviously on some level I knew that something was not right.
But... I had no clue that his detached attitude was an indicator of someone having an affair!
How did I finally find out?
I stumbled upon something on the computer.. and I started monitoring his computer use.
I then decided to try to figure out his password to get into his email ( I did this by casually asking him about online banking and what his password was for that-of course he used the same password). So, I got in to his emails and noticed just a few slightly suspicious emails with a female co-worker.
The thing that peeked my interest was that they were using nicknames for each other.
I showed the emails to a few friends. Most thought they were harmless. Interestingly enough, my one friend who is a former cheater-immediately recognized the emails as evidence of an affair!
I had been seeing a therapist due to stress over my daughter's condition and had also been discussing issues in our marriage. I took the emails to get her opinion.
She thought that it didn't indicate an affair but definitely a slippery slope and she encouraged me to confront him.
I did that the next day in the therapist's office. I needed a third party there. He had no idea why he was going.
And of course he only admitted to inappropriate emails.
After we got home one thing led to another..and finally in a very dramatic and heartbreaking moment I realized that this was much more than just inappropriate emails.
It took a few more hours of tears etc. before he finally confessed to a 5 yr LTA.
So...I had a few weeks of denial before that confrontation even though I was actively seeking out advice and help in trying to make sense of it all.
On the flip side...
for some of our lurkers here on LTA....I want to say that my FWH and I are reconciled.
And 6 and 1/2 yrs post d-day I have the best marriage and husband!
I think of it as my third marriage....but all of them were with the same man.
We both did a ton of work after d-day.We were separated for 6 months. He got sober and went to AA and IC and MC. I went to IC for 4 yrs!
It was an emotional roller coaster.
But, in the end I think that it was worth it.
My 2 adult children both know about the LTA and saw the destruction but also saw the restoration of our marriage and now are very supportive of my FWH and very happy that our marriage has survived.
We've all learned a lot from this and our kids are closer to each other and us in many ways.
So,even though this was the most heart wrenching experience to live through. I want others to know that marriages can survive infidelity and even survive a LTA.
I have been looking at sites for emotional abuse for a while, but this site/article was super fantastic because it gave great examples.
Thank you for the link to this incredible article. Reading it gave me the creeps: SO much of it told my story down to the most minute detail. All I had to do was reverse the personal pronouns.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
Until you get the separation/divorce process going, start acting like you are separating/divorcing.
Stop caring what he does.
This may take awhile, but stop acting as if you care until you actually stop caring.
You made the decision a along time ago, and rightfully so, that you cannot R. You are biding your time to get the finances in order. I know this does not mean that you dont have emotions for this man, but let's start following the head until the heart catches up.
Stop inquiring as to what he's doing. Stop talking to him. I know you are not prepared to drop the s/d bomb on him now - so just let him know what your guidelines are for his visit from this moment on and if an explanation is required, which I doubt, as he already knows how upset you are about him introducing OW & OC to his family, etc., use that as your official turning point.
Literally, when does he want to see your kids under whatever restrictions are appropriate. Set a date/time and then no further contact unless there is a cancelation.
You CAN do that.
[This message edited by Allgoodnamesgone at 9:01 AM, July 13th (Saturday)]
Allgood: Can I just tell him not to come? He'll give me a hard time.
I spent a good part of yesterday journaling and felt I was getting to a good place.
I took DS14 out to eat and went to my neighbor's across the street. I did drink too much wine at my neighbor's house and when I leave, I see NPD's car in my driveway and DS14 walking over to get me. It was 12:45 am. NPD is pissed because he couldn't get a hold of me. (for some stupid reason DS 14 had turned my cell on vibrate and I didn't know he was calling at 11:15 at night.)
I feel so guilty for coming with too much to drink.
NPD just says I get upset when he's unreachable, and he was mad because he couldn't reach me and then just leaves.
He shouldn't just come over like that.
Legally, can I just say here are my boundaries? Supposedly NPD is sending them back overseas on Wed. and he's staying and said the other day "You'll have me all to yourself"
[This message edited by honesttoafault at 9:41 AM, July 13th (Saturday)]
NC means no more hurts.
IMHO the NPD has no right to expect you to be on call 24 hrs a day for him as he cavorts around town with his new wife and OC.
No right to expect you to answer his calls or for you to even see him.
If he wants to see the boys he needs to set up a convenient time and place to do that.
If its in the house-then you leave for that time period.
Go shopping, go to a movie, go get a pedicure, a massage...pamper yourself...
Trust- I've been keeping you in my prayers.
DHeart- you sound strong.
Legally, can I just say here are my boundaries?
Just start to enforce your boundaries.
The dogs I have owned over the years did not understand English at all, but they knew very well where most of my boundaries were based on my responses to their actions.
My husband had a three affair with a "friend/aquintence" in town. Our son's were friends. I had no clue even when he left me to be with her. Didn't find out til after we reconciled who she was and how long it lasted. Found out I was pregnant a month later. Hated him so much even considered abortion so I wouldnt have another tie to him.
He's been great since. VERY patient, loving and caring. Took care of me throughout my pregnancy and even now (had the baby two weeks ago).
I still hate him sometimes... really hate him. I think about cheating on him or at the very least doing little dirty things behind his back. Why should I feel guilty... he opened the box.
All those pictures, family trips, those memories... all ruined. I hate him. He did things for her he never did for me and he tells me he loves me... how can that be true. He spent money on her and would get upset with me for shopping too much. He wanted me to get a higher paying job but told her that he wanted her to stay home and take care of him and he'll support her. I hate him.... I hate him so much sometimes.
He says he's doing it now. Why does now matter and the past doesnt. He cant pick and choose what time is important or real. I wish I kicked him out then. I love my baby boy but sometimes I feel like thats why I stayed... confused.
How long did it take you to get over you partners long term affair?
- stbxww AP was a baseball instructor for DS and after one of the lessons whe remarks how the AP has a new and better job . Her tone had a since of pride. Since it was so irreveevant, it slipped by like the wind.
- We took a family vacation and stbxww was cold, very cold emotionally on the way to our destination. When we had sex, she was "unresponsive". After DDay, I learned that she had arranged a meeting with her AP during the vacation. Ugh!
- stbxww had arranged a charity activity with a few friends at our house and ths was the type of social activity she sought. Low key event. I worked late, came home and ate dinner by myself while the event finished. I helped stbxww clean up and we went to bed. I started to talk about the day and stbxww puls out a maazine and says she has not had anytime to herself during the day.
- stbxww cell phone was "surgically" attached. Said it was important and how she stayed in contact with other parents and our kids. She respnded immediatey to incoming texts no matter what we were doing. (Interesting, DS would use her phone for games / internet surfing and it was always available to him, stbxww gave it to him freely whenever he asked(
- I returned from an extended overseas trip for a family vacation . I had purchased some very nice lingeire and gave it to her as a gift while on the vacation. She qicly stffed it back into the box, no hug, no kiss, no thank you, only we needed to hurry and get ready for the evening.
- After six months of stress over the marriage with little or no affection fro stbxww, I began surfing the internet on how to divorce and came across an article on relationships which reminded of the many caring things I used to do for my wife. I sat down with my wife, told her how I was feeling, related the artice, and told her I was recommtting myself to the marrriage and would do so through my actions. Her reply "I am in a different place and we should try a separation" and "I would never have an affair!!" Talk about a Fruedian slip, how could I have missed that one!
How did I find out? Ouch! Ouch! and Ouch! Shortly after I told her about m recommitment to the marriage, I was planning a secial evening for us and wwnt to get some lingeie that I had given her. And intead of finding the lingerie, I found condoms in her dresser drawer.
I confronted her that evening. She lied telling me about a short affair that was over. Two months of my trying to make sense of it all and my decision to look at the phone records (she had changed the password to the account) forced her hand and she confessed to a two plus year affair. I literally did not sleep for the next two nights. stbxww was more defensive than remorseful and this attitude exists till this day.
I think that I finally saw the light at the end of the tunnel after 4 and 1/2 yrs.
I know it sounds like a long time....but it takes as long as it takes.
I think the turning point for me was to get to a point of acceptance first rather than forgiveness.
I couldn't believe he done what he did and I couldn't believe that he was now remorseful and most of all I couldn't believe that I was reconciling with him after finding out about a 5 yr LTA!
Once I got to the point of accepting that it happened and there was nothing that I could do or he could do to change the past....that's when I began to feel more comfortable about moving forward.
My mantra was: That was then this is now.
But, we had to do a lot of work for me to get to that point. So be gentle with yourself. You can't rush it.
Remember that, visualize that, every time you must have an interaction with NPD.
Best wishes for you and your family.
Be safe! Be happy! Be healthy! Live with ease