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User Topic: Long Term Affairs - Part 32
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Default  Posted: 6:01 AM, August 15th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage


I know Dip uses a Green Egg grill. They are really nice. I use an old Weber gas grill. If you go gas, btus per inch if cook surface is the important measurement.

FWW 60
M 1990, dday 10-5-09

Posts: 3964 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: FL
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Default  Posted: 8:09 AM, August 15th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Miracle and Honest– I know you’re right. Did you ever watch Eddie Murphy’s Raw? Remember where he was talking about if you’re starving and someone throws you a cracker you’d be like “Goddamn, that's the best cracker I ever ate in my life! That wasn’t no Saltine. That was a Ritz!” Yeah, that’s me right now. Instead of Saltine crumbs, he’s throwing me Ritz crumbs lol. I know it. He’s not dealing with his issues, at all. It’s hoovering and rugsweeping, no doubt. But he’s making an effort to treat me better, treat DD better, and for the first time I have at least some hope that the A is actually over. I was really done and, well, not okay with being done, but accepting that I had reached the threshold of what I could take. Saltine crumbs were not good enough. Ritz crumbs are not good enough either, but if they are the first step of progress upward, then I’m willing to hang out in limbo a little longer to see if he can truly commit to healing himself and our marriage.

Blobette – Yes, I’m listening :), and I agree with you. No, he has refused counseling and considering some of the horror stories I have read here about counselors, I’m not too inclined to attempt to force the issue. I gave him a couple of audiobooks and shortly after D-day tried sending him articles from the Healing Library and elsewhere but gave up after he steadfastly insisted that none of them applied to him, despite how absolutely textbook his LTA was.

“You can be the most attractive person in the world, both external and internal, but if your WS has not fixed their issues that may not be the attractiveness they are looking for so your efforts may go unnoticed. I know that in my case, OM1 treated my WW like crap basically. I was and have always been a pretty good husband but still my WW sought out someone that treated her like crap to fill her void. Broken people are often attracted to other broken people. Until your WS addresses their issues, what you would think would typically be found to be attractive may just turn out to be the opposite of what they are looking for.”

RP – this is very true in my case. OP is a very broken (and bragged about being so), unstable person who quite frankly treated WH like crap most of the time from what I can tell. She had none of the values or characteristics that WH has always admired/expected of me, and I was shocked reading their emails at how she talked to him and how he bowed down to it. Bottom line, I think he is broken inside and was sucked in by someone who openly admitted to being even more so. It’s actually part of the reason it’s hard for me to walk away. I hate seeing him so broken. If someone you love is physically broken, you don’t walk away – you stick by them while they heal. Isn’t this the same? Especially when we had a deep, true love once.

H&C – I use a weber gas grill as well. I prefer charcoal, but you can’t beat gas for convenience.

Kalamity – I think the fact that H wanted to embrace your anniversary as a day of celebration is a good thing! Of course – I’m excited about crumbs, so being handed crackers with peanut butter would have me jumping for joy lol.

[This message edited by DecimatedHeart at 8:11 AM, August 15th (Thursday)]

Me, BS 41
Him WH 42 - LTA, EA/PA
Together 24 years
DD13 - the love of my life
DDay#1 11/10/2012
DDay#4 4/5/2013 (NC broken AGAIN)
A supposedly over 6/14/2013

All my posts are edited - I hate typos. :)

Posts: 129 | Registered: Nov 2012
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Default  Posted: 8:22 AM, August 15th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

kalamity: It's very hard to supposedly celebrate what you thought was an anniversary for a "marriage". Some WS's don't understand it. It's somehow like we look at pictures of our hometown and believe it's the same and when we go back, things have changed and we expect everything to be the same. The WS wants to be nostalgic about "home" not realizing how they have done so much to destroy it.

All I can suggest, kalamity, is to focus on what you are saying: you have a good relationship now. Do you believe you have R'd to a point that you might want to renew marriage vows and that could be what you are celebrating? Just a thought.

As for me, living with an unremorseful NPD is getting very hard. I still get passing comments here and there about if he D me years ago it would have been bad for the kids, bad for me, yada yada. Like he did me some big favor by not D me.

He hasn't left yet. Business here is not done and I've told him he can go and I can finish it.

Mini crisis with DS15, and NPD is telling me that I have to watch the kids more when he's not here. I told him I'm not a glorified babysitter where I'm watching his kids.....they are OUR kids and I do take care of them. He tells me that I'm too busy watching what he's doing and not focusing on the kids.

I think he find a grain of truth somewhere and runs with it blaming me or giving me his own version of the truth and I always end up believing him. Hard internal struggle for me.

This is the longest he's stayed in years. His moodiness drives me crazy and I'm more aware of how much a bottomless pit of need he really is. Blaming me for his moods.....

I was so blind.

The only reason he's staying is because of business and because he feels he has to get the DS's under control.....his control the way he feels they should be.

I thought he loved me, and perhaps he does to the best of his capability, but that is not near enough. I wanted a 'normal' life, but I guess I'll never get that, at least with him.

So sad.

The man I thought I married does not exist.

Posts: 1897 | Registered: Jan 2010
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Default  Posted: 8:30 AM, August 15th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

DH: we were cross posting

I know all about crumbs! Please, please don't be like me and grab those crumbs and feel there is hope. It doesn't mean that he's given up OP. I know many times over the years that NPD gave me great crumbs, and even a sliver of cake now and then, but then I found out that he was calling OW for over and hour every single day.

It is hoovering plain and simple.

He doesn't want to lose you or DD or his lifestyle.

Please keep healing yourself. Go to IC. Don't live on hope. He has to be consistent for a long time for you to really consider hope.

I hate seeing him so broken

Please get the book "Codependent No More" by Melodie Beattie. You are not the one to help fix him. He has to fix himself. The brokenness is his own doing.

Posts: 1897 | Registered: Jan 2010
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Default  Posted: 8:36 AM, August 15th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

(((HONEST))) - Yes, it is so sad that NPD is so blind that he can't see the wonderful, selfless woman he should be honored to call his wife. He should be giving you not only a normal life, but one filled with extraordinary moments of love. Unfortunately, I don't think he is ever going to be capable of that.

You sound like you are getting stronger. I am glad. Stay focused on you and DSs. Don't buy into his crap. One foot in front of the other. ((((hugs))))

ETA - we were crossposting again. I have read that book, and learned a lot from it. I know I have codependent tendencies. But I also know WH helped me heal when I felt broken. We have always survived because when one of us fell, we picked each other up.

[This message edited by DecimatedHeart at 8:41 AM, August 15th (Thursday)]

Me, BS 41
Him WH 42 - LTA, EA/PA
Together 24 years
DD13 - the love of my life
DDay#1 11/10/2012
DDay#4 4/5/2013 (NC broken AGAIN)
A supposedly over 6/14/2013

All my posts are edited - I hate typos. :)

Posts: 129 | Registered: Nov 2012
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Default  Posted: 2:13 PM, August 15th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

do not have much time...

honest: you sound wonderfully strong and i am so proud of your new ability to "see" him for who he really is and was...

heart: oh dear heart.....i am so so sorry but i think you are seeing what you want to "see".....right now you have time anyways while you line up those ducks.....let him prove himself one way or the other while you do just that......keep lining up those ducks.....

and if he really wanted to work on his issues there are thousands of books and he could seek ic on his own....

just that he would be working on himself would be something....but he isn't is he....he is not about to do anything at this point, unless he feels desperate or you force the issue...

and he most definitely is broken...but if he is not willing to fix himself you cannot fix him for him....that old saying that you could lead a horse to water but you can't force them to drink.....

just as been there done that...pfm goes regularly to ic...the first ic i thought had done all he could and wasn't making any more progress...pfm changed ic's because the first one moved...well the new ic is horrible....more and more i "see" the old abusive pfm he used to be....not to mention his inablity to deal with reality and truth.....i have told pfm many times that this new ic is worse and that he should travel to the other one or find yet a new words have fallen on deaf ears....he is not willing.....he is also incapable of fixing himself and his issues as may your ws....

you could pick him while he is on the floor provided he isn't sinking his teeth into you at the same an injured dog....which make the dog waay more dangerous to help then to let it be.....and physical and emotional issues are compoletely different enitities....had his emotional (mental) issues be where he was still faithful and never was unfaithful...then yest you try...but he broke his vows to you on a monumental level and has abused you emotionally since you learned of his deciept in answer to your finding out as opposed to doing whatever it would take to mend your relationship....

so not cool heart, not cool and downright emotional abuse....

gotta run

i am taking my life back, one step at a time!!!!!

Posts: 5994 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: looking for my rainbow
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Default  Posted: 5:25 PM, August 17th (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

On my phone so this'll be short. Thank you all for not letting me put the rose colored glasses back on. It is so tempting. So far he is still being emotionally available. No serious conversations, but right now I am okay with that. I just need a break. I want to have a good birthday to erase the horrible memory of last year. I want to have a nice family vacation and relax and try to remember what the hell it is I am fighting for, kwim? After that we will see if true R is possible.

Love and hugs to you all! 'See' you when we get back!

Me, BS 41
Him WH 42 - LTA, EA/PA
Together 24 years
DD13 - the love of my life
DDay#1 11/10/2012
DDay#4 4/5/2013 (NC broken AGAIN)
A supposedly over 6/14/2013

All my posts are edited - I hate typos. :)

Posts: 129 | Registered: Nov 2012
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Default  Posted: 5:49 AM, August 18th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

The LTA has very little to do with the BS.

I wish I could believe the LTA has little to do with us, but IMO, it does. First, we picked the partner. It always begins with the choices we make.

There is nothing wrong with looking hard at yourself to see what you did so you don’t do it again. What is hard is to set aside our ego, our fears, and look at ourselves. There is nothing wrong with looking at our past and know we made a mistake. We learn from our mistakes.

I will use some my own life examples.

First… I was young and ignorant. I could not see nor did I know the personality traits of a good woman. The very first sign my wife gave me was when she told me her previous relationship ended with her having an abortion. And there were several other signs she gave me too. The way she handled conflicts was to go silent or run away. Those were two HUGE, very bad personality traits. My wife to this day is the worst at conflict communications to me.

Second.. I was young and ignorant. I did not know how to act like a masculine man and placed way too much value on sex. My own reaction to my wife’s behaviors was to chase after her… mainly because love was sex, it is usually that important to most men. I reacted to my wife not in a healthy way from the beginning.

Let talk about Golf. I was a very good golfer in my youth. I grew up on a golf course and played almost every day for years. I continued that game into college. When I met my wife, it was ok at first as we both lived our own happy lives. Then we make the commitment to each other. Golf takes 4-5 hours. It was quality time to me, but my wife took it as my lack of quality time I don’t give her. She whined, complained; beat me up over this early in our marriage. I reacted to my Wife. I quit a passion of mine. It was a huge mistake I made.

Why did I quit something I loved so much? What was it about me I did not stand up for myself and keep a game that I grew up with and was a part of me?

Others… Why did I allow my wife early in my marriage to come in at 1-2-3 A.M. a few times? What could possibly be positive about that behavior? The second time it happened, why didn’t conflict the heck out of her? Why did I allow her to openly communicate so much to one man? What was it about me who thought sex was the end all affirmation to commitment?

OK so we made a bad choice to start with. That is OK too, it happens. People make mistakes. It does not mean we punish ourselves the rest of our life with bad feelings.

I have learned something very important myself and I have changed. I think if you read enough, anyone can identify most good and bad behaviors of a man and woman. Once you know them, have courage conflict. Give a person a chance to change because they want to.. it takes 90 days.

Today, my wife can be whoever she wants and behave anyway she wants. If she wants to behave badly, all I can do keep adding pressure and more pressure until one of us has had enough. The meaning of “enough” is that another person does not want to behave in a way that is loving, caring, romantic, mutually satisfactory relationship. It is not you making that choice; it will be your spouse! That is the healthy way to conflict.

Posts: 2636 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
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Default  Posted: 6:02 AM, August 18th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage


You somehow must start to separate yourself from all things that make you feel not celebrating.

Something we must get very good at is to forgive. Forgiving is most hard. It is hard to take thoughts and move them from bad thoughts to good thoughts. It must be learned and developed by YOU. You control your own thoughts and behaviors.

For this day.. try hard to think about the good things in your marriage. When thoughts pop into your head that are bad, you shift them.. by calling a friend to talk about “whatever girls talk about”.. You get what I am saying…

Next anniversary.. You change something about you. You can plan something for your husband that will be most enjoyable. Let’s say.. you grab his hand early in the day and say something sexy.. During the day touch him in romantic ways… build him up.. You do know the greatest gift to a man? You do know the feelings of most men and the power you have? USE IT.

Can you see the shift from taking your mind down a path of.. I just don’t want to celebrate to a path of I am going to rock my H world? Planning positives throughout the day?

Posts: 2636 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
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Default  Posted: 1:42 AM, August 19th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Sorry to disagree but I stand by my statement

The BS may have not been perfect and may have allowed the WS to get away with murder way before the LTA began ( like you I did not put my foot down with my FWH when we were young and he would go out for drinks with his drinking buddies).

But that does not mean that we deserved to be treated the way we were.

My FWH was far from the perfect husband even before the LTA but....... That would not have been justification for me to have an affair!

It could be an explanation as to why it happened..

I have examined and analyzed every aspect of my marriage just like most of the BS on SI have.

I think the BS beat themselves up enough as it is.

They do not need to feel guilty about the LTA on top of everything else that they are feeling.

The fact is that a LTA is something that no husband or wife can compete with because......
It's a fantasy bubble.

Tryin could have never picked up a golf club and his WW would have still had the affair.


Because the WS were looking for excitement and were looking to escape the hum drum rhythm of every day life.

That's why the BS should not feel guilty because what the WS were escaping was what happens in every marriage.

People get comfortable with each other. Life gets hard. It's not all lollipops and unicorns . It's a typical marriage with ups and downs. It's reality.
The LTA is fantasy, lies, fake compliments and ego strokes.

That's why the LTAs go on for so long- the affair partners know ( on some level)that they would never want to have a 'real' relationship with the AP.

So there s no pressure to take things to the next level.they do not want a 'real' relationship with the AP. They want to keep it as a fantasy bubble.

Look at Miracle's situation.... How could she be to blame for her WH's LTA?
It started before she married her WH!

Obviously her WH never saw the OW as marriage material- she had her role but t was not wife.

Same with Honest's NPD WH- he started having affairs early on in their marriage.

My FWH didn't start cheating on me until we were married for 25 yrs but..... He did not cherish me and appreciate me the way he should have from day one ( his words verbatim).

Was that my fault?

Nope. It's on him.

He did not appreciate what he had.

I could have stood on my head and it would not have made a difference in his toxic thinking.

The WS needs to change themselves and change the way they look at their BS, their family, their life etc.
It's that glass half empty or half full way of looking at the world.
The glass is the same its the attitude that's different.

If a WS is remorseful and if the shock of the LTA being discovered and exposed creates an environment where the WS is finally forced to take an inventory of themselves and change then reconciliation is possible.

Should the BS take an inventory of themselves ? And take a long hard look at the marriage history and try to improve ? Sure

But, IMHO the WS would have had affairs regardless of who they were married to.

My FWH would have felt entitled and put upon by the constraints of marriage and parenthood regardless of who his wife was.

He needed to have a major attitude adjustment in order to save our marriage post d- day.

Me- BS
Him- WH
Long term marriage
D-day- Jan. 2007
5 yr. LTA

Posts: 3139 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: NJ
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Default  Posted: 6:06 AM, August 19th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I don't feel guilty because in my youth I made a choice that was wrong. You make them in life. You make decision in the "heat of battle" so to speak. Some will be right, some will be wrong. I made a mistake. It was a mistake I cannot change. I picked a woman to be my wife who is human who sins. She showed me the signs before we married that I have now identified as behavior warning signs. My wife was not equal in good character. I picked that kind of woman.

and not only that, in my experince in life, I was unable to lead my wife to better place during our marriage. I admit it. I am ok with it. It was a mistake I made in many aspects.. words, behaviors.. Anyone can be in my same shoes.

My point in golf.. I can understand if you give up an addiction, a bad behavior, but golf? A game? something you that is fun.. brings you pleasure... pleasure not in an unhealthy way but good way?

Fact of the matter, what I should have told my wife was this..

Honey, I have played golf since I was a kid. I am not giving that game up because I enjoy it for many reasons. We can make time for each other in many other times and areas. You got that?

And if my wife didn't like it? tough. Attractive is allowing men time with other men. You stand up for yourself when you know they are attractive behaviors. An un-masculine man says.. OK honey, whatever you want. Only for a partner to continue to get more and more and more out of you endlessly… To play golf in my mind was to have a peace about me.. something I needed that was healthy and should not have been seen as unhealthy like my wife made it to be.. because of her own selfishness.

On the other hand.. If I needed to go bar hopping with the men.. or Heavy gambling.. something not so healthy, it becomes something different.

I am not sure I write to make myself clear.. maybe I am and some people do not like to hear they are not so perfect after all.

Our egos get bruised, damaged, we cry, we hurt, we hate, we have all those feelings when someone betrays us. We must say.. Ouch in the deepest sense of saying ouch.. But I can tell you, feelings change. I will say it again. FEELING CHANGE. They change based on what we do and believe.

I am not afraid to say.. YOU reap what you sow. It does not mean you won’t experience a fact in life.. Life is not fair. A given in life, You will eventually have something in your life that is not fair. But what you do is pick yourself up… and sow again to the best of your ability.

I don’t share my life experiences to beat up on anyone, make them feel guilty. I do it to share things we must now become to get the most happiness… to protect ourselves. Yes, after the fact we might feel guilty because of our naivety or ignorance because who really teaches us this stuff? I get that. It is ok to feel what you feel. But to ignore, deny, avoid, defensiveness is a character that is not attractive.

Some of us will stay married an shoud, but some shouldn’t.. and some won’t.. it depends on who we are or who we should become.

To look at in a proactive way so we sow again…

Let face it.. There are behaviors of those who cheat. We must be able to identify these behaviors and apply them to ourselves and protect all boundaries in order to protect us from pain.. and yes, we must eliminate these people from our lives should they choose not to change. We cannot change people. It is not a good thing to be a manipulator. To nag, to say the same thing over and over in hopes someone changes is fruitless.

A strong behavior, which is attractive is once you give a person a chance to be healthy.. they must then do it. If not, it becomes fruitless to attempt to hang on.

Here are a few behaviors that are very critical to make sure we know and see them

- Someone who has a pattern of hiding things
- Someone who cannot be open and share feelings over fears
- Someone who is addicted to a drug
- Most of there friends are those of the opposite sex
- A history of multiple sex partners.
- They flirt in front of you
- Tend to withdrawal from you emotionally
- A spoiled brat growing up.. maybe an only girl in a family of brothers.. only child.
- A porn addict or person seeking sex in desperate need of affection not knowing the true meaning of the connection.

A gift is to allow a person to want to change.. Some will, some won’t.

And behaviors of us..
- Allowing your partner other sex partners and knowing it.
- Being addicted yourself
- Not sharing feelings and meaningful conversations
- Poor communications or not listening
- Allowing someone to behave badly in your presents, Afraid to conflict.
- Accepting mediocrity
- Failing to enforce consequences.. mainly over security fears.

Peace folks…

[This message edited by trynhard at 6:15 AM, August 19th (Monday)]

Posts: 2636 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
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Default  Posted: 6:32 AM, August 19th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My FWH didn't start cheating on me until we were married for 25 yrs but..... He did not cherish me and appreciate me the way he should have from day one ( his words verbatim).

No he did not. But he became addicted to a drug. It didn’t happen overnight. Drugs weaken the mind.

Of course, it is easy today for me to know because you shared your story with me and I learned. My wife can have drinks with her men friends. Occasional is fine.. Habitual will end my marriage. The consequence. To hide daily drinking will be end my marriage. Not by my choice, but by my wife. I will just be executing her decision.

Oh yeh Njgal.. I learn from you and your man’s behavior.

I have even learned from RP..

Posts: 2636 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
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Default  Posted: 6:56 AM, August 19th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Men and women are built by nature much different.

I know a man who was married for years. Over time, his wife changed and the sex became far less frequent. He was turned down many times over and over. His own feelings became those of rejection by his wife. His wife, like most, got disgusted by his whiny attempts to selfishly try to get her to have sex. The kids take up so much tome too. He was able to get his needs filled through masturbation and not cheating. He failed to understand his wife’s needs to be love with romance, new things, the words she needed, the task he needed to do… being successful for the family security. He was ignorant to the needs of a woman.

They began to distance themselves not sharing feeling because they went unattended… living life just like it is suppose to be right?

The man progress to porn in secret, the easy way to get affirmation. A fantasy he could get through video of a sexy woman making him the knight with shiny armor. He was king in fantasy. His needs continue to go unfilled and sex became maintained.

And his wife’s needs filled by watching and reading romance novels. Her own fantasy unrealized as being filled.

Then at work, the man started talking with a woman who shared things she had with her H, but went unnoticed by her H. See, her own husband was exactly like the man I know too. Amazing! The newness to this man I know was interesting. In less then a year, the flirting advanced and the sexual tension began.

In the weak point of a few drinks together, they kissed and made out. Something both have not had in their own M for a long time other than the maintenance sex part. The feelings both have were something not felt in years. They make love. Chemicals in the brain kick in and a connection is made.. one that is forever.

Now this man’s needs of being a king is filled in a reality. The AP, her feelings are also being filled.. he is giving her the words, he should have only been giving his wife. The time, the opportunity, was first with the man I know. Now both him and the AP deeply conflicted over promise made and broken. It becomes very damaging to their minds. The erosion begins. Damage is now done.

Is it fair or justified to hurt anther we love? No, but it happens. But people fall into the trap all the time... what 40-60%.. and many other have morality not to fall prey over those stituations but does it mean they are happy in the M? The stats say 20-30% stay married even though they are unhappy with thier partner. It is sad to see... and say.

it is wrong for me to say.. lift yourself up and make yourself happy.. Id those things about yourself and make a change.. for YOU.

Now imagine if somehow, a person had the ability to identify all the comings before.. The ability to address those behaviors with open communication in the marriage.

Yes.. some marriages have that ability. Those are the ones that last. To see in advance there partner going down a path of bad behaviors because they know they are not being loved like love should be. They are not afraid to confront not being loved like it should be. It is not only that. These people have the ability to look at themselves first to make sure they are loving completely first.

The man I know in the above story is now divorce. A far too common story over and over and theme..

Who was broken?

[This message edited by trynhard at 7:36 AM, August 19th (Monday)]

Posts: 2636 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
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Default  Posted: 8:18 AM, August 19th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Look at Miracle's situation.... How could she be to blame for her WH's LTA?
It started before she married her WH!

I'll raise my hand too. My WW was already dating OM1 when we went on our first date and never told me. He remained in her life until DDay less than a year ago. How on earth could I be the cause of him being there? The LTA has very little to do with the BS.

Last night my WW and I had a good long discussion about the LTA. I had found an old letter that she had kept from OM1 from years ago when we had been dating already. Based on where I found it, I am certain she did not keep it intentially after DDay so I am not too worried about it. She forgot she had had it. No new information was in it that I didn't know, just a difficult read is all.

In our conversation she started to go to her needs and needs that had not been met during the LTA. I stopped the conversation and said that in any other conversation I would be more than willing to discuss those things but I will not ever discuss them in the same conversation as the LTA. The LTA is 100% her fault, if those were her needs at the time she should have told me them then rather than doing what she did. I also said he was ALWAYS there, I was never even given a chance. She did not disagree at all and I know she doesn't. I think it is important though to not let those seeds of excuses to even surface though.

Tryin - the things you say regarding being a better person and all are great words to live by, they really are. It is a very fine line though when you are discussing those things in context of a LTA - I don't think the two should be mixed. If you want to be a better person for your wife that is very nobel of you, just don't ever accept fault. Accepting fault sends mixed signals to the WS that is trying to move past all of this. It shields them from accepting full responsibility of their actions and prevents them from doing the hard work needed to fix their issues.

BS - Me 38
WS - Wife 39
D-Day - Oct 12
Married 10 years
OM1 - 12-year LTA
OM2 - 9 month A turned into open relationship with couple for another 1 1/2 years

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Default  Posted: 8:35 AM, August 19th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I wish I could believe the LTA has little to do with us, but IMO, it does.
The decision to have an A whether LTA or not has NOTHING to do with the BS. It is 100% the WS decisions to go out and sleep with someone other than their spouse.

First, we picked the partner. It always begins with the choices we make.
Yep we chose to marry them but we also chose to marry them with an udnerstanding that when things got tough we would work through them together and an understanding that we gave up all others when we said "I Do". Your statement implies that we knew our spouses were capable of such duplicity and evilness prior to marrying them. If I knew my STBXWW was capable of the things she did to me prior to getting married I would NOT have married her. What I have seen is after the honeymoon phase of the M is over, the WS for whatever reason becomes unhappy and instead of communicating with their spouse like an adult they choose to fill the black hole by having an A and then deciding that they will keep the M as well because they don't have the courage to actually confront and resolve THEIR issues.

If they did in fact have an issue with us, the BS, they ALWAYS could have chosen to tell us and I don't mean the half ass excuses they gave us while they were in the middle of the A. I mean the sit me down and tell me what I am doing that isn't okay for us to move forward together in this M. There is a reason so many of us get bullshit reasons for the A. The reason is they honestly don't have one that truly involves something REAL and substantial that we, the BS, did. Even if it was real and substantial, the WS's first option to cope and deal is an A... That makes no sense to me. How many options do many BS's come up with after DDay to try and wake up, win back, save our M's and the WS's first option when things got bad was an A....

They didn't try any options at least not in my case and the option my STBXWW did try was after her first A which I knew nothing about so she was lying to me then. Kind of messed up to be in counseling at a church and have your WW asking you to help save the M when she has already gone out and slept with another man and you have no clue. Kind of difficult to truly figure out why you are even in counseling but you hope it might explian why your WS is acting weird. In my case she was dry adulterer and I had no clue.

But how was I to know that since she didn't tell me. I am not a mind reader and this is not a tv show so vague cries for help through veiled actions don't cut it either. So to say that I in anyway encouraged or allowed the A to happen by some action or inaction on my part is IMO a falcon punch in the face since I had NO idea that I was in fact competing for the attention and affection of my STBXWW for YEARS. If I am playing a game then give me the rule book, all relevant information like WW is fucking other dudes, and the option to say (paraphrasing Eric Cartman from Southpark) "Screw you guys I'm going home". So yep if I had known the truth or even been given the option to address any issues my STBXWW had about ME in the M then I could have addressed them, attempted to address them, or chosen to take my toys, leave and wish her a happy life with OM. I wasn't given that option though.

There is nothing wrong with looking hard at yourself to see what you did so you don’t do it again.
This is true but after the A has started or been discovered. I did look hard at myself and came out much better for it but I could have looked hard at myself without having my WW feeling free to run around screwing her coworker for 3 years. Nothing I learned or changed about myself was earth shattering. You posted to me over a year ago about being quality. I WAS quality during my M. There wasn't much to change. Once the toxicity that was my STBXWW was gone I realized it wasn't me that was the issue it was her. So the things I did work on are benefitting me now and more importantly will benefit whoever I end up in a serious relationship at some point in the future. For ME that was the biggest positive of getting out. There ARE SO MANY people that do recognize the good qualities and things that our WS's took for granted or had to belittle us about to make themselves feel better. Normal people don't do that. Regular non-broken people support others and pull the goodness out of people. They don't beat you down to keep you in place so they can cake eat. A BS that takes on fault for the A feeds into this cake eating mentality. IMO it takes the focus off the WS's decisions and says yeah you messed up but I contributed to you messing up by doing this or that. Complete bullshit imo. The WS owns 100% of the A.

You can't police yourself or your own behaviors in the hope of never messing up again. That defeats the purpose. What happens when you have a bad week or lose a job and those bad behaviors creep back for a bit. Does that mean WS gets to go out and have an A again. Because if you keep them from owning their shit by trying to remove all negatives from yourself they never really fix their own problems. No one is perfect so we all need decent coping and communication skills to get through the tough patches.

What is hard is to set aside our ego, our fears, and look at ourselves. There is nothing wrong with looking at our past and know we made a mistake. We learn from our mistakes.
This actually isn't that hard. It wasn't for me anyway. Once you see who your WS really is then you can make a choice. I didn't have a problem with pride or self-introspection, I had a severe problem with being able to let go. Took me over 1.5 years to finally understand that I had no control over my STBXWW. The only thing I could ever control was me. I was fighting a losing battle until I finally said I'm done and gave up. That's when I realized it was never me that had the issue in the first place and I started to be okay. She made her choices and I was free to make mine now. She can own the past and her mistakes. I choose to own MY future and the choices that I am making. Things get so much clearer when and unremorseful WS is actually gone and out of the picture. The influence and impact an unremorseful WS can have on a BS is traumatizing, devastating, and any other "ing" word you can think of and we often don't even see it until we are out of the situation.

Pride and ego have nothing to do with sitting in a fucked up situation when your WS is still screwing someone else in front of your face. Shock and trauma are the more likely culprit. Like I said for me once I finally woke up and actually processed what my STBXWW had actually done to me for years it was really simple. The following sentence applied to both my STBXW and myself. Either get your act together or get the fuck out. She didn't get her act together so she/I had to get the fuck out. I in turn had to get my act together because I had stopped living my life and put it on hold for someone that was going in a completely different direction for her own reasons. Her choices are not mine to make. All I can do is say go make your choices and I can make mine. I am okay with the choices I made.

It takes some of us longer to get to the point where we get so tired and worn out that we finally see OUR own BS reality. Then we make decisions.

This turned into more of a mega rant than a response to you Tryn. Of course my views are from the perspective of someone who had an unremorseful WS. I chose not to put up with that anymore and filed. A truly remorseful WS may actually have issues with what the BS did during the M but they also understand that the choice to have an A was 100% on the WS. It's the BS's decision on what to do when they are ready but it helps if you have a remorseful WS and don't take on responsiblity for your WS actions. The WS ALWAYS had the option to go to counseling work things out hell, make the BS go to counseling if we did soemthing they didn't like. I am sure the majority of us would much rather have been pulled into counseling or hundreds of discussion on how I leave my underwear in the corner instead of the clothes basket then have to deal with an A as their way of coping because my underwear were 8 feet further away from the designated spot they were supposed to be.

Again nothing I did caused my STBXWW to have an A. If I was that bad she always had the option to divorce me. She ALWAYS had the option to say FUCK YOU 7YRS and leave but she didn't because SHE was the broken one.

[This message edited by 7yrsflushed at 9:06 AM, August 19th (Monday)]

D-day 5/24/11
BH = Me
2 children
The first true sense of calm I felt in YEARS was when I filed for D...
Separated 6/2013, D official around 6/2014

Posts: 1566 | Registered: May 2011
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Default  Posted: 11:42 AM, August 19th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

You know, life is about complexity....

and 7yrs and Tryn are both right...

I am at the airport in Nashville now so I will be somewhat all over the place here on my phone.

Waywards fit between a simple dichotomy. There are those that are broken with a character defect at a core level. Then there are those that do not know how to act in times of stress or isolation or have attachment problems. Think about a biological cell. You can have one that is mutated and defective internally, within the cell wall, and can spread, infect, or gobble up other cells. Then there are those cells whose walls are damaged only and can not connect or interact properly with other cells, and it is the attachment which is the issue...

now I digressed a bit, but I want to offer a crude analogy to the Tryn/7yrs debate.

I do not like to lock my car. I do not like to lock my house. I like to leave my garage door open. For various reasons.

I have had things stolen out of my car. Both cheap and valuable things. I am not responsible for the thief, his choices, his desperation, his not caring about me. His choice to be a thief is on him.

But what is it about me that has me leave my doors open? If I always locked my doors, then what?

Broken people attract broken people. I have seen that said here and in several books. 'Broken' can mean several things and need not be pejorative.

I am far from being 100% healthy. That last 10-20% is a bitch.

Interesting though I now see the demons of others. My best friend is codependent. Has a wife with an untreated CSA background who uses alcohol every evening to cope. They can not get their kids to obey or be respectful. Sure the south has a higher bar for that. But they have a lot of unhappiness that they can not identify. Mainly because she avoids. My friend says her FOO has so much pain that it will always just be the silent elephant in the room.

I wrote in January that I feared that I was trending toward 7yrs case. My WW is remorseful and wants the M, but the FOO is just too tall a hill to climb. She is so good at compartmentalization that the A has been boxed up and put away. She no longer wants it or identifies with it or has any fond memories of it. But she is not abl to learn an overall coherent lesson from it, just small ones like "better and more honest communication."

So to tie in last weeks pow wow, being attractive is attracting and preferring attractive people. It is locking your car doors more often. It is knowing how to spot the thief. It is about ending dependence on living in a thief neighborhood.

I guess I am in my second year.


[This message edited by MC_Jack at 11:45 AM, August 19th (Monday)]

I am not a marriage counselor. I chose "MC Jack" in the spirit of a handle like "MC Hammer" or Young MC"...there is a lot of 'rapping' here, no? At the time I did not know what MC stood for on this site. Duh.

Posts: 789 | Registered: Mar 2012 | From: West Coast of Hopa-hopa-land
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Default  Posted: 12:04 PM, August 19th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Tryin and others interested in the attractiveness issue.

There is an excellent book which I stumbled upon call Secrets of Married written by a Dr of Psychiatry.

It is not a book on infidelity but a book on having a quality relationship. It begins by discussing the inherent physiological differences between men and women such as brain mass / function and how each reacts differently to events.

The book deals with relative recent society / cultural issues that can set men up for failure in relationships and promotes mearriage education versus marriage counseling which the author believes has an unhealthy feminist perspective.

The book discusses the importance of good relective conversation, empathy, nutrition, and exercise. And it discusses the importance of being masculine, pursuing your interests as well as those of the marriage.

7years.. wow, thank you for the post. It expressed o many things that help me process my own situation.

For this day.. try hard to think about the good things in your marriage.

Kalamity.. good advice for avoiding depression. There is another book called Learned Optimism and it discusses how one's perspective (control vs non control) can alleviate depression. It is the difference between my relationship is lousy and there is nothing I can do about it (non control) vs I can have a great relationship (this one or another) because I do the things that make me attractive.

DHeart... enjoy the family vacation!!!

Be Safe! Be Happy! Be Healthy! Live with Ease!


BH (me, 50)
WS (her, 48)
3 wonderful teens
Heading for Happiness

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Default  Posted: 10:53 PM, August 19th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

first: before i forget...happy happy birthday heart...i am not sure when it is, but i do hope that your birthday and family vacation go well...

and i have to disagree with you that your ws is emotionally available....i expect he is "available"...but emotionally, i seriously doubt it right now.....and if he seems emotionally available i am sure its all about "him" and i am so sorry

tryn: oh dear tryn.....its never the bs's fault, never...sure we choose the partners...but we were all brought up to believe in the sanctity of marriage....i had a shitty marriage, a shitty husband and NEVER ONCE did i consider needs were never met by pfm, with exception to sex and even that ended when he raped me.....and still i never chose to cheat as has just about everyone here....

the ws has many options when the marriage is broken and going outside the marriage is completely on them and never once would it ever "fix" a broken marriage

and as far as being broken..most people have issues that have not healed...and when we choose a partner we are not wired to believe that they inherently will posess the abiltiy to cheat....most people want to believe in their partners, we believe them when they take their vows....and as njgal happens and how people choose to deal with their issues as they come up is completely on them....

were we all the best spouses...i am sure we were not....but that is where compromise or third party counseling would come one is perfect, no one gets it all right....and most people never expect their spouse to betray them....and there is no way to read all the signs, none of us studied human behavior that we would be experts on behavior and signs that people exhibit....

i chose to stay in a marriage that my needs were not getting met because it was more then a marriage, we were a family with small children and i always believed his intentions were more then honorable if his methods were anything but....because frankly its what i wanted to believe and at the time i had no reason to believe otherwise...

and you know, that friend i have the one that came into our lives because he hit on her....when i learned about pfm she was totallly blown away and didn't believe it...and if anyone would believe it you would think she would...but she believed his story and he told her he would never try again when he hit on her, and he never she wasn't until i found out about #2 that she remembered that he hit on her shortly after meeting her...

tryn...if you really believe that you were at fault i would say that maybe you should go to ic had responsibility for your marriage not her affair....both spouse need to assume 100% responsilibity for the state of the marriage and what we choose to live with in the confines of the marriage....and the ws assumes totally 100% of the decision to cheat and 0% goes to the bs...

tryn i still worry about you.....i sense so much conflict within you.....i hope you do go to might help....and remember not all ic's are created equal...some are good and some if you get a sucky one, keep looking til find one thats good should you choose to go....


i am taking my life back, one step at a time!!!!!

Posts: 5994 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: looking for my rainbow
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Default  Posted: 6:48 AM, August 20th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

MC... That analogy is exactly what I am saying.

Strength is to lock that door every time. Know how to lock it and do it... The robber will react in most cases by finding an easier target.

The message I send is not one to fix any robber. You cannot.

some robbers will be so evil they will smash the window. You cannot prevent that unless you monitor and protect at all times. You cannot always do that.

If you live a bad area.. The odds will increase it will happen. You know in your heart you live in this environment. It is prudent you try and move.

You cannot blame yourself for what a liar and cheat does... But you can make good decision to protect yourself.

Iwant... Thanks you for your concern with me.. It may not be necessary. See.. I have had two very intimate moments with my wife this past week. I created both situation by my behavior. They were moments of great connection. She served me in many ways too.. She cooked for me and washed my clothes.. We worked together on our finances in a super positive way... She opened up to me about her feelings concerning her family.. No, I made no suggestions about what she needs to fix them.. I just support. She tried to bury some feelings and I made it safe for her to share.. And she did. I did not prevent her from doing her own thing with trust.. And she responded with transparency in a huge way and did not abuse me nor did I in a similar. She gave me some words of affirmation on her own. I know I made a mistake in M'ing my wife 29 years ago, but that was a mistake I made back then, not now. I am ok with my own bad choice and have forgiven myself. I try hard to forgive my wife today. I have not failed at it.
I make extra attempts to be more giving.. I understand not all is equal in any relationship.. And I am ok with that.. I spend 5 times what my wife does on entertainment. I like that because that is what I need. She knows it is not equal too.

I did not have to conflict my wife this week. She didn't behave in ways in ways not fully loving me. And guess what.. She can hurt me.. When she does, I will tell her and no temporary bad feeling will prevent the consequences of her behavior. I can be single if I must. I don't depend on my wife. She can bless me on her own or not.

Gonna have a good day...

Peace out

Posts: 2636 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
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Default  Posted: 7:42 AM, August 20th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I agree strongly that the decision and responsibility for an A rests with the WS. By definition, we all had bad M, we did not cheat. I do believe that in my sich I have responsibility for being M, and remaining M, to a spouse who cheated.

As Tryn posted:

Why did I quit something I loved so much? What was it about me I did not stand up for myself...

This was me. I gave up friends, I gave up activities. This effort to isolate me is a trait of the BPD, but I tolerated it. Early in the M I did leave FWW and I spoke with attorney about filing. Then I backed down. I moved back in and we went forward as though nothing happened.

Others… Why did I allow my wife early in my marriage to come in at 1-2-3 A.M. a few times? What could possibly be positive about that behavior?

Different events and activities, but I tolerated behavior in my FWW that did not seem appropriate. We would go to MC and then as the focus turned to FWW we would quit going. I saw this as a pattern and did nothing.

From virtually the day we came home from the honeymoon sex frequency dropped precipitously. The years prior to dday we simply did not have sex. FWW contracted herpes during this period.

I got snapped at if I was doing laundry when she came home. I thought because I should have done it “sooner or faster”, but now I see because she felt guilty for not doing it. To this day if I am doing some laundry around 5-6 pm I will feel some anxiety. Virtually nothing I did was right, and every problem was laid at my feet.

Through all of this I stayed.

When we were dating she was the first woman I had ever dated that was a little needy. I was able to help her with her children, when she was sick, when she had problems. I was her KISA. I truly felt loved because I felt she needed me and I could “save’ her. Back then I saw her as childlike, now it is irresponsible. I was proud that other men were attracted to her, but she was with me. I thought her flirting with OM was cute and sexy. I knew she had an A while M to her xH, but that was because he was a d*ck, we were going to be perfect together. When we were dating I was her total life, and I loved the adoration. I see all of this was a sign of her BPD too.

This is what I had to change about me. I no longer allow others to blame me for their crap. Had I possessed self-esteem, balls, backbone, whatever, I would have left FWW early in the M. I would have missed the LTAs.

It is like a bad meal at restaurant. If I am served a meal that is undercooked or the wrong entrée, it is the restaurant’s fault. It is my fault if I consume the meal and pay for it. If I go back and it happens again, it is my fault for getting two wrong meals.

Same anaolgy as MC_Jack. I did not commit a theft, but theft is a logical consequence of my action (or inaction).

I am not to blame for the As, but I am to blame for tolerating crappy behavior form a spouse for so very long. Her A’s were just a logical progression of her life trajectory. I suspect she cheated on me early in the M that I do not know of, but if I had valued me more I could have avoided her LTAs.

[This message edited by atsenaotie at 7:43 AM, August 20th (Tuesday)]

FWW 60
M 1990, dday 10-5-09

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