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User Topic: Long Term Affairs - Part 32
MC_Jack
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Member # 35016
Default  Posted: 7:59 AM, August 20th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Kinda disagreeing with this in a way:

Same anaolgy as MC_Jack. I did not commit a theft, but theft is a logical consequence of my action (or inaction).

I do not see the theft as a logical consequence of my action/inaction. That is in the thief's narrative. My action/inaction determined whether I would be a victim (of that thief, some other one, or of some other kind of perpetrator).

See, EVEN IF THERE WAS NO CRIME, I still need to answer why I want to leave things unlocked. One word: denial. Second word: fear. Third word: self-esteem.


I am not a marriage counselor. I chose "MC Jack" in the spirit of a handle like "MC Hammer" or Young MC"...there is a lot of 'rapping' here, no? At the time I did not know what MC stood for on this site. Duh.

Posts: 792 | Registered: Mar 2012 | From: West Coast of Hopa-hopa-land
atsenaotie
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Member # 27650
Default  Posted: 9:00 AM, August 20th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My action/inaction determined whether I would be a victim

MC_Jack,

I do not disagree with this phrasing, and apologize for my earlier miss-characterization of your post.

Car thieves cruise along looking for cars to hit. They try each door to see if it is unlocked. Most are locked, and they move on to the next. They are looking for a car for a score, not a special car. If it is unlocked, the look to se if there is anything to take, and check to see if they are being watched. Once they are sure the coast is clear, they grab the stuff and run.

OM cruise along looking for possible wives to hit on. The OM throws out a compliment to see if there is a response. If there is no response or woman responds insulted, they move on. They have no interest in a woman who is not open to them. If there is a response, they increase the flirt allowing themselves an out, but checking to see how much they can get away with. Discussion of M problems indicates the W is clear to be hit on, and the A is off and running..

Now, it is not my fault my wife was out and “un-locked”. What is my fault is I should have realized my FWW’s lock was broken. I saw the evidence. Instead, I blamed myself for not working the lock right, or for breaking it. We tried different MCs (or for the car lock analogy CM- car mechanic), none repaired her, yet I continued to keep the car and leave it out on its own. When someone came along and took stuff out of my car, I should not have been surprised. Disappointed and upset, yes, but not surprised.

It is not my fault someone took things from me, but it is my fault I did not get rid of a vehicle that was not reliable or persist in taking it to be fixed until it was. I was much to eager to believe that I was the problem, not the car.

ETA: Tryn makes the example that giving up his golf was a mistake, that he should have stayed with the game he loved. I agreed that giving up friends and activities was wrong for me also. The thing is, I thought that by giving FWW a free rein I was giving to her the freedom and self-determination she had taken from me. I trusted her, I wanted her to be happy.

This is where I cut myself some slack. Prior to dday (well actually, a couple of years earlier when I was gaslighted) I would not have believed that my W would cheat on me. People who cheated were M'd to a$$holes who did nto try to meet their needs. That was not me. I thought that if I could be good enough then she would love me. I accepted the flirting, odd behaviors, damaging criticsim because I believed her when she said that I was the problem.

[This message edited by atsenaotie at 9:10 AM, August 20th (Tuesday)]


LTA BS 53
FWW 60
M 1990, dday 10-5-09
Reconciled

Posts: 3967 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: FL
MC_Jack
♂ Member
Member # 35016
Default  Posted: 9:18 AM, August 20th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

ATS,

just to expound on my analogy...

My WW is the thief. My marriage and my emotional well-being is the car. I do not have a relationship with OM and he did not perpetrate anything on me...my WW did. So if I were to include OM, he would be a drug dealer that for which my wife was breaking into cars in order to fund a drug habit.

Funny thing,

I thought that by giving FWW a free rein I was giving to her the freedom and self-determination..

Some people see being given freedom as a message of 'not caring'.

Jack

[This message edited by MC_Jack at 9:19 AM, August 20th (Tuesday)]


I am not a marriage counselor. I chose "MC Jack" in the spirit of a handle like "MC Hammer" or Young MC"...there is a lot of 'rapping' here, no? At the time I did not know what MC stood for on this site. Duh.

Posts: 792 | Registered: Mar 2012 | From: West Coast of Hopa-hopa-land
atsenaotie
♂ Member
Member # 27650
Default  Posted: 10:24 AM, August 20th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Some people see being given freedom as a message of 'not caring'.

Yep, like a petulent child FWW was expecting me to rein her in and set boundaries for her.

She interpreted many of my behaviors as not caring. I am a very strong INTJ, and she took my not being chatty as not caring. Once I realized what was going on I would send her summaries of INTJ tendencies and she accused me of making excuses. I tied to be more chatty, to work on my chatty ability, and she would be upset that I was doing it but not liking it.

There really was no winning in my M, and I am lucky to have survived with only the scars that I have.


LTA BS 53
FWW 60
M 1990, dday 10-5-09
Reconciled

Posts: 3967 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: FL
njgal480
♀ Member
Member # 24938
Default  Posted: 3:17 PM, August 20th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Guys... I think you're all over thinking this.
I think you are all very nice guys, kind, sensitive, caring good husbands and you all have a bit of that KISA syndrome....
you want to protect your wives, protect their honor etc. even after infidelity.

SO..you are looking very hard to find blame ..even if it is with yourselves... that maybe if you had done so and so or if your attitude were different or you were more vigilant then maybe..... your spouse would not have had an affair.

IMHO these people-both the men and women were unhappy....what were they unhappy about? often nonsense.

That's what most happily reconciled FWS say... that they look back and can't believe that they did what they did, that they love and appreciate their spouse very much and want to save their marriage and family.

They wake up from that famous 'fog'.
That 'fog' is a generalized crappy attitude.

They were not happy, their needs weren't being met...they were selfish, self centered and blamed the spouse for not meeting their needs.

Heck! There have been a number of stories on SI where the WH (usually it was the husband) blamed his infidelity on the fact that he felt neglected because his wife was too busy driving to the nursing home to take care of HIS parent and was not around enough to flutter her eyelashes at him like the OW did!!

The nerve of that wife! How could she choose taking care of her sick mother in law as opposed to meeting the needs of her WH?

That's the kind of toxic thinking that I am talking about.

When the WS complains about his or her needs not being met-the BS in most cases has very very legitimate reasons for not sitting around mooning over their spouse!

Life is messy, life is busy!

But...during this time period the WS is not on board with dealing with the harsh realities of life!

Instead..They are all about me, me, me.....

my need for attention, flattery, adulation, excitement, ego boost etc. etc.

and that's where the OW/OM comes in- that's their job.

And in a LTA that is exclusively what they do-they fill this little niche.

They build up the ego of the affair partner. They do not do the dishes, they do not drive the kids to and from their activities,they do not take out the trash or mow the lawn, or visit sick relatives in nursing homes, or discuss bills and finances.
All they have to do is play out this little fantasy game on a part time basis.

The BS was doing what spouses do.... living, working, doing, being nice one day, being a little grouchy on another.
Nothing that the BS justifies a LTA.

I would never blame myself for a car thief stealing my car!
Even if I left the keys in the car.
I would never steal a car-even if it was a Rolls Royce with the engine running and sign saying "take me". I would not do it.
there is a certain type of person that could not control themselves.

Our spouses couldn't pass up the opportunity.Its on them.

We can learn things after the fact.

But, I will not take blame for being a good wife and mother.
I was loyal, honest, devoted and hopeful that all would be well...that my husband would change, etc.
I will not blame myself and say well.... I was too child centered and not meeting his needs...blah blah blah....

maybe that is all true, but having an affair and not just any affair but a 5 yr LTA-well that's all him!



Me- BS
Him- WH
Long term marriage
D-day- Jan. 2007
5 yr. LTA
Reconciled.


Posts: 3139 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: NJ
MC_Jack
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Member # 35016
Default  Posted: 4:02 PM, August 20th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Njgal,

did you read my posts thoroughly? I never once took blame for the thief. Via the metaphor, I am explaining why I was the victim vs. some other guy. Big difference. I went on to say "even if there was no crime"....

The point is my marriage was not that great FOR ME. I let it be that way. Why? I can ask myself that whether or not there was an A. I can say my marriage was this or that and it is not taking "blame" for anything. Just a statement of opinion of a past pre-A.

The connection to the A is this, using the car thief metaphor again. If I made it harder, or had an alarm installed, I might have identified my WW as a thief a long time ago. Such conflict way back then might have saved me years of a lame marriage, or I might have left her.

It is an exercise in understanding my behavior, NOT WW's.

I get that you are always on message, njgal, for newbies and those suffering from unfair financial dependence. I get the dogma.

For me I am trying to understand more than just the A.

[This message edited by MC_Jack at 4:11 PM, August 20th (Tuesday)]


I am not a marriage counselor. I chose "MC Jack" in the spirit of a handle like "MC Hammer" or Young MC"...there is a lot of 'rapping' here, no? At the time I did not know what MC stood for on this site. Duh.

Posts: 792 | Registered: Mar 2012 | From: West Coast of Hopa-hopa-land
njgal480
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Member # 24938
Default  Posted: 4:37 PM, August 20th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

MCJack-gotcha!

Trust me... I spent 4 yrs in therapy post d-day deciding whether or not to stay in the marriage precisely for this reason! My husband was not a very good husband before he had the LTA! That was really the cherry on top of 30 yrs of me having to deal with his functional alcoholism.....
and basically..what all addicts are is..extremely selfish.
Their needs trump everyone else's needs.
Sounds very similar to infidelity.
In AA selfishness and dishonesty are two big things that are discussed.
So... I realize that by allowing this toxic behavior to go on for years I was leaving the door wide open for the next step- which is infidelity with a female drinking buddy...

so I get trying to understand the whys.
I am a person that analyzes everything....

I just don't blame myself anymore. I did at first when I was grasping for explanations.


Me- BS
Him- WH
Long term marriage
D-day- Jan. 2007
5 yr. LTA
Reconciled.


Posts: 3139 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: NJ
honesttoafault
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Member # 27105
Default  Posted: 10:25 AM, August 21st (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Quite an interesting discussion.

We all want to know "why" because then we feel we can "fix" it or perhaps find out that we couldn't and walk away or accept.

We want to understand.

While it is true that many BS's might have put up with bad behavior in the M, it becomes a slow build up that we put up with more and more.

The M may have suffered from various things, and both the BS and WS may have been unhappy.

BUT, and there is always that BUT, the WS chose to deal with their unhappiness/stress/ etc by having an affair.

Other people may deal with the stress with alcohol, drugs, workaholic behavior, porn, etc etc.

That is their choice.

Did the BS contribute to the stress of the M? So did the WS.

There are many many M's that one partner puts up with outrageous behavior on the part of the other and do not choose to have an A, go to drugs, alcohol, porn, etc.

I do agree that the BS needs to look at themselves and see what was there that they continued to put up with bad behavior. Was it codependent tendencies, suffering from emotional abuse that is a slow buildup of insidious behaviors?

I do know with xWH#1, I tried many, many things to change myself in hopes he would stop drinking. I couldn't control him and deep down inside I knew that if I really put my foot down, he would leave. I wanted to keep the M because of the kids, so I put up and shut up. He ended up having an exit A and leaving anyway.

With current NPD, I know there was and still is a lot of FOO and recovery from his emotional abuse that I put up with behaviors that I should not have, but then again, I knew deep inside that the M would end. He would not change.

So, yes, there was something in me that I put up with bad behaviors. Something I have to change within myself.

That is being attractive.

But, guys, the analogies about keeping the car door locked? I understand what you are saying, it's like blaming the victim about walking in Central Park at night and getting mugged...

Also, you're talking about the car as a possession that you should have taken better care of...

You can take care of the car, but in this case imagine it's a "smart car" that should have put the locks on itself.

You could have done all the maintainance you could....oil changes, buffing it with wax, giving it the best gas and oil, putting it in a fantastic garage, but imagine in this case you have no control over locking the vehicle. This is a advanced "smart car" and is supposed to lock itself.

NPD has admitted to me several times that he cannot be with one woman. If he "D" OW, he would probably find another. It had nothing to do with me. Our relationship could be better or not, but that wouldn't change within him.

Of course he would never ever go to IC.

With some WS, there are some wires missing or crossed. There was nothing we could do.

Could we have recognized it before? In some cases, yes, but we cannot beat ourselves up by choosing the wrong spouse. Also, ironically with NPD he acually tried to treat me better to cover up the A. He would buy me more things, try to please me by doing things I'd suggest, but I felt the emotional detachment more and more. Something wasn't right and I felt it.

My analogy would be that we could go shopping for a new appliance. We buy one not expecting any problems....but as time goes by, problems arise, we fix them, and then there is a major problem, but the appliance appears to be working ok. We aren't able to invest in a new one, so we put up with it.

Is it our fault we chose the wrong one? But perhaps it is our fault that we put up with something that is not working right and cannot be fixed.

NPD is still here. A little bit of a crisis with the DS's (they're fine health wise) and NPD's MO is to control and fix.

In a way, it is good that he is still here. I can see HIM as he is and not this image I had of him because he wasn't KWIM? I'm really seeing him more and more and starting to realize that I no longer feel "in love" with him. Actually, I don't feel I "love" him anymore either. I do still care and perhaps "love" him as the father of my kids, a lot of things he did do well in the past, more like a family member that did a lot of wrong things, but you still care about....
It's like UKgirl used to say about her WS, that she like him well enough and they got along. But the major difference is that NC has not been established and never will be. NPD will still continue to emotionally abuse me, whether or not he's doing it on purpose. I think sometimes he does to manipulate and control, and other times that's just the way he is. But I can not longer accept that.

That is where MY healing has finally begun.

[This message edited by honesttoafault at 10:30 AM, August 21st (Wednesday)]


Posts: 1903 | Registered: Jan 2010
MC_Jack
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Member # 35016
Default  Posted: 1:03 PM, August 21st (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I am going to milk this metaphor for all it is worth.

Honest,


Something I have to change within myself...That is being attractive.

Yes.

But, guys, the analogies about keeping the car door locked? I understand what you are saying, it's like blaming the victim about walking in Central Park at night and getting mugged...

No.

Also, you're talking about the car as a possession that you should have taken better care of...

In my way of thinking about it, the car symbolizes my emotional well-being as well as my marriage, depending on my choice of view.

You could have done all the maintenance you could....oil changes, buffing it with wax, giving it the best gas and oil...[and locked it and had a laser protection system]...

...and still have had it broken into. Yes. That is life. And as you say honest, some thieves have their 'wires crossed' - some more than others. Some are such evil junkies they will smash windows, others just peek into the car to see if there is loose change. Others are never seek out drugs as you say - they have better coping skills or self-esteem.


Is it our fault we chose the wrong one? But perhaps it is our fault that we put up with something that is not working right and cannot be fixed.

Yes, it is our fault for making the initial choice. Not a big deal. We choose with limited information and a lack of perfect knowledge. OR we choose subconsciously to heal or address our own FOO issues. Putting up with disrepair is the real issue. making an HONEST assessment of repair-ability is what follows. This is where I am at.

Jack


I am not a marriage counselor. I chose "MC Jack" in the spirit of a handle like "MC Hammer" or Young MC"...there is a lot of 'rapping' here, no? At the time I did not know what MC stood for on this site. Duh.

Posts: 792 | Registered: Mar 2012 | From: West Coast of Hopa-hopa-land
ReunitePangea
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Member # 37529
Default  Posted: 3:21 PM, August 21st (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

All this car analogy talk makes me think we should make some insurance commercial where the agent snaps their fingers and magically our perfect spouse is suddenly there.

Is it our fault we chose the wrong one?

Wow, that is a big question when you stop and think about it. The question makes the assumption that we in fact did choose the wrong one which may or may not be the case. In my case, even despite all that I have been through, I know that I did not choose the wrong one.

If given a chance to go back to the start knowing what I know now I still would repeat it all over again. It is really an irrelevant question in that none of us have a time machine to make this happen but none the less I would repeat it all if I had too.

I wish I would have had some of the life understanding skills that I have developed in the last year and a better awareness of my surroundings to more quickly address the issues. That wish does not equal fault though - that is my WW's alone to bear.

My choice is only to forgive and move on or scrap the whole thing and try again. I have chosen forgiveness and work daily to try to make this choice easier and easier - it is a long road with the chances of future car mishap analogies along the way but no road you take will insure you that this will never happen to you again.

I will say the road I have chosen does often seam like some dangerous mountain road with crazy hairpin turns but the view has been amazing. OM1 is been gone completely for almost 10 months now and just his distant memories remain. OM2 is still there but to this day I am not bothered by that at all. Former OM??? still remains a possibility and I will deal with that if it ever comes up. Future OM??? seam very unlikely but life makes no promises.


BS - Me 38
WS - Wife 39
D-Day - Oct 12
Married 10 years
OM1 - 12-year LTA
OM2 - 9 month A turned into open relationship with couple for another 1 1/2 years

Posts: 406 | Registered: Nov 2012
MC_Jack
♂ Member
Member # 35016
Default  Posted: 4:01 PM, August 21st (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

RP,

The question makes the assumption that we in fact did choose the wrong one which may or may not be the case.

You are right - 'fault' has a pejorative sense to it; maybe 'responsibility'.

I wish I would have had some of the life understanding skills that I have developed in the last year and a better awareness of my surroundings to more quickly address the issues.

Yep. That is the point of learning from the past - taking responsibility for our choices empowers us to realize that we always have choice. No one held a gun to my head when I sold my boat to buy the ring. But in understanding my choice back then, it helps me look at my choices patterns now.

That wish does not equal fault though - that is my WW's alone to bear.

Not sure what you are saying here, RP, in the context of asking someone to marry you. Did your WW ask you?

Jack

PS Today I sent my WW some really harsh, painful emails today. One from last year which I did not send at the time. I am going to share my feelings and my pain. I am starting to jettison this stuff. E.g. I sent my WW my copies of the 2 years of phone bills. Told them that they were hers to own, I didn't need them anymore.

My birthday is in just over a week. I want for my birthday to be done putting together the story of the affair and just focus on our new relationship skills AND our own personal growth. She may not want to go where I do. She wants to quit counseling. I have asked her to tell me if not being able to go into deep introspection is an issue of willingness or capability. I told her that I am still not interested in being her second choice, her rebound guy. I may have more difficult choices ahead. I do have those and I will be just fine no matter what.


I am not a marriage counselor. I chose "MC Jack" in the spirit of a handle like "MC Hammer" or Young MC"...there is a lot of 'rapping' here, no? At the time I did not know what MC stood for on this site. Duh.

Posts: 792 | Registered: Mar 2012 | From: West Coast of Hopa-hopa-land
ImNellNow
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Member # 28753
Default  Posted: 5:28 PM, August 21st (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Jack,
I sent my WW my copies of the 2 years of phone bills. Told them that they were hers to own, I didn't need them anymore.

BTDT.
What was her response?

Haven't we beaten the responsibility horse to death yet? Here's my two cents (which is a bargain, as my two cents is worth at least a nickel):
We are talking about three completely separate things when we (a) look at our choices and actions within the marriage, (b) examine our WSs' actions within the marriage and (c) try to understand or at least come to terms with our WSs' choices and actions outside of our marriage. In this case, a plus b does not equal c. b plus X equals c, but what X is will differ from one WS to another. In Mr. dishonest's case, it's possibly raging NPD and cultural issues. In pfm's case, utter bone-deep stupidity (right, miracle?). In Daffy's case, meh, I've discussed it ad nauseum and don't much care any longer. Can/will the WS fix his or her X factor? That's an important question to answer. IMO if the answer is "yes," then you have a shot at true R. If the answer is " no," then the BS should make a decision whether to stay M to the unchanged WS and hope that the WS doesn't make the same choice again or just give up caring (status quo), stay M and parent/investigate to try to control the WS's decisions (which won't work, as people have this annoying thing called free will), or separate legally or informally.

For the BS, it is absolutely imperative to spend time figuring out what kind of person/partner you aspire to be, and work to achieve that. I am very proud of who I have become in the aftermath of what Daffy did to us. But for a variety of reasons, my healing didn't mean that I got to keep my little family together. It was not going to work for me. That was not a decision I made lightly or quickly, but it was one I had to make for me and for my boyos.


BS & D
Drinking wine and thinking bliss is on the other side of this.

Posts: 2370 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Baby steps on my new path
MC_Jack
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Member # 35016
Default  Posted: 6:08 PM, August 21st (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Easy, Nell, on the horse ...

Throwing stuff on the wall, theorizing, analyzing, hell that is how us guys process and deal with this shit.

No different than when I read posts from BWs bemoaning their situation and sharing feelings of hopelessness... and they do not seem any different from ones from 2 years ago.

.so when you chime in Nell, with a formula no less, *gasp*, I am glad, very glad, that I have support here. One day I will be better at expressing empathy for the BWs here. I do try my best.

[This message edited by MC_Jack at 6:15 PM, August 21st (Wednesday)]


I am not a marriage counselor. I chose "MC Jack" in the spirit of a handle like "MC Hammer" or Young MC"...there is a lot of 'rapping' here, no? At the time I did not know what MC stood for on this site. Duh.

Posts: 792 | Registered: Mar 2012 | From: West Coast of Hopa-hopa-land
njgal480
♀ Member
Member # 24938
Default  Posted: 6:12 PM, August 21st (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

MCJack-
Did you send her new emails that you wrote? or just old emails of her's?


Me- BS
Him- WH
Long term marriage
D-day- Jan. 2007
5 yr. LTA
Reconciled.


Posts: 3139 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: NJ
MC_Jack
♂ Member
Member # 35016
Default  Posted: 6:19 PM, August 21st (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Njg, I just sent 2 old email drafts that I wrote in the summer of 2012, when I was in pain, and she was still a little foggy...


She wants me to insulate her from my pain. I don't express it much anymore. But still itsnotgoingtohappen.com. I am not holding shit back I have decided as I move to the next step.


I am not a marriage counselor. I chose "MC Jack" in the spirit of a handle like "MC Hammer" or Young MC"...there is a lot of 'rapping' here, no? At the time I did not know what MC stood for on this site. Duh.

Posts: 792 | Registered: Mar 2012 | From: West Coast of Hopa-hopa-land
ImNellNow
♀ Member
Member # 28753
Default  Posted: 10:19 AM, August 22nd (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Jack,
I think you meant, "Whoa, Nellie!"

Support is so important as we all make our way through the aftermath. Thank goodness for SI!


BS & D
Drinking wine and thinking bliss is on the other side of this.

Posts: 2370 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Baby steps on my new path
njgal480
♀ Member
Member # 24938
Default  Posted: 10:23 AM, August 22nd (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

MCJack-
IMHO you did the right thing. Why should you insulate her from the pain and reality of what her actions caused?

That's how the WS got into this mess to begin with!

They were able to compartmentalize and push aside any guilty feelings etc.

They had an uncanny ability to block negative thoughts out of their head and go ahead and engage in destructive behaviors.

So forcing them to face the reality of what they have done can only help!

That is what snapped my FWH out of his fog.

[This message edited by njgal480 at 7:07 PM, August 22nd (Thursday)]


Me- BS
Him- WH
Long term marriage
D-day- Jan. 2007
5 yr. LTA
Reconciled.


Posts: 3139 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: NJ
iwantamiracle
♀ Member
Member # 22812
Default  Posted: 7:44 PM, August 22nd (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

wow....yes nell, pfm does stupid really really well...on top of that mix in some npd traits (its always all about him), a habitual liar...(can't stop if he tried, which he didn't) and then for the topper put in some greed (he has to have it all) (has to, not want to)

anyways....

jack...i also believe you should tell your wife when things bother you....at some point she need not know the details of your triggers, but just that you triggered...imho....a good marriage is where BOTH parties feel SAFE to talk the other about anything and everything...when you don't feel safe then you will find an outlet....would mean your needs are not being met...and when your needs are not met you are not in a mutally satisfying relationship....

and back to the discussion at hand....interestingly...i never felt unsafe in my relationship prior to d-day....my needs were not met, but i still felt satisfied because i settled...i settled for less because I CHOSE my family unit and going back in time....i could not and would not change my choices based on what i knew then....we can't fault ourselves for not KNOWING everything we needed to know and everything we thought WE KNEW about our spouses.....

today pfm went to the water park with that my friend (the woman he hit on once upon a time), my dd and her boys....when i ignored him this morn as i always do, he smiled and commented "so you are going to just ignore me"......why should today be any different.....not to mention you ignore me and my wishes even now when you claim you don't...hello asshole.....but i enjoyed the fact that he was not around...in fact i love when he not around....looking forward to that becoming permanent....

last week manchild got into another car accident...and pfm's reaction was downright ODD.....first he yelled at the dog and then told me that manchild was in the accident, then he yelled at the dog again...so i thought the dog pissed in the house again...but NO....he didn't even realize he yelled at the dog...then we go and the whole way there he kept repeating manically that he can't believe this happened, oh god he can't believe this...on and on....we pull into the lot where my ds was with a couple of cop cars and he is still carrying on...so i tell him he needs to get a grip....well that set him off and he yelled at me that i have no buisiness pickin on him!!!

then there was the day i was on the phone with a friend in trouble and he stood in the doorway watching and listening...i motion to him to leave and he yells is it "dd", i tell him no and motion again for him to leave...with that he starts carrying on...yellin and screamin...(my friend on the phone went from cryin to laughin listenin to his rantings)

then there was another day he said something to me and i said something back it was totally benign and he turns around and says

"really!!!! what did i ever do to you that you need to yell at me"....i began to laugh..seriously i did not and had not yelled at him...but really what did he ever do to me....

i think he has lost some of what was left of his mind....he really makes little to no sense alot of the time...

i wonder if i could get him committed!!! it would solve so many issues....but my luck is that i would be committed instead!!!


i am taking my life back, one step at a time!!!!!

Posts: 5994 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: looking for my rainbow
DecimatedHeart
♀ Member
Member # 37657
Default  Posted: 9:02 AM, August 23rd (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi tribe! Thank you for the birthday wishes (it was Monday) and vacation wishes. I have to say that the vacation was wonderful. As WH put it - healing. But I guess I think like a guy, because I like to put things up on a wall and analyze lol, so here's the pros and cons.

PROS -

DD observed that WH was beyond affectionate, he was loving. Not just accepting when I held his hand, but seeking mine out, kissing me, opening doors for me, just really sweet. And very frisky.

His body language in pictures was totally different than the 9 months since D-Day - he wasn't just sharing the frame with me, he was wrapping his arm around me, leaning his head on mine, genuine smiles, etc.

He bought me a Claddaugh charm and made sure I put it facing 'the right way'.

I had a trigger while we were there and walked away without saying anything, and he followed me, saying he could tell I triggered but didn't know why, and when I told him, he hugged and kissed me and told me he was sorry I triggered and assured me he hadn't made that connection at all, he was only thinking of me.

He bought me a card that spoke of renewing marriage vows with every action of love, and wrote me a note saying how thankful he was for my love and for standing by him.

Spoke about wanting to go back next year and/or take a Christmas trip together.

I was having such a good time that when he made a joke about trading me in for a version that didn't forget the coupons at home, it didn't even occur to me until later that I should have been offended.

CONs (or at least, things that make me go hmmm) -

His phone is still locked up like Fort Knox. Seriously, it's comical. He's got like a 20 digit password and every time he opened it to take a photo he would glance at DD and I to see if we were paying attention to what he was typing. I wasn't. I am to the point I have no interest in snooping. He's either going to start flying straight on his own or we're going to D. Simple as that.

He didn't post me a FB birthday message, even though DD razzed him about it for days. In all fairness to him, he drove for 8 hours that day, but he posted plenty of other stuff during our trip.

There was one picture taken on his phone of the three of us at my birthday dinner where we just looked... in love. I asked him several times to post it since I had no cell phone coverage and couldn't download the copy he emailed to me, and he just... didn't. Even though he posted several pics of DD and other posts about our trip. Come to think of it, although he tagged me in all his posts, there are no actual pictures of me, just DD and scenery.

Our last day there, he took a picture of the coffee shop we were at and posted it. Asked DD to move to the corner of the shot and focused on a display in the center of the room of vegan cookies (OW is vegan). I asked him why he had DD move to side and he said so he could get the whole room. It was a cool coffee shop, so it's possible that, like with the first trigger, I was making a connection he wasn't. I didn't bring it up.

He was very sullen and quiet on the drive home. He always gets depressed after a vacation, and this was a short one (four days, two of which were mostly spent in the car),so it's probably nothing. But it still kind of clawed at my insides after a magical three days beforehand.

All in all, my gut tells me the A is over, that he's coming out of the fog, but is still holding onto memories about the A as a crutch. What do you guys think?

As for the continuing conversation here, I can say that I am a better, or as tryn would say, more attractive person now than I was before D-Day. I took a good hard look at myself and fixed some things that needed fixing, and am continuing to work on others. I recognize behaviors in myself that I now view as wayward and have eliminated them. I now know that I have codependent tendencies and tend to enable WH and DD. I am working on that. I believe that I need to have more patience in some areas of my life and less in others. I try to take better care of myself, both inside and out. I try to take better care of the house and our finances, when before I would blow things off in favor of quality time with WH and DD, now I seek balance. I like myself as a person now probably more than any other time in my life.

Does that mean that I accept responsibility for the A because there were things I could improve about myself? Hell no! I own half the responsibility for the pre-A problems, but I think that WH needs to take a similar journey of self-discovery and self-improvement, because he needs to own the other half. Nor do I credit the A with my evolution.

Miracle - I'm sure your friend was grateful for the laugh! Your WH sounds like he wants to get it, he just doesn't. At all.

MC_Jack - Happy Birthday!

Love and hugs to you all!

[This message edited by DecimatedHeart at 9:10 AM, August 23rd (Friday)]


Me, BS 41
Him WH 42 - LTA, EA/PA
Together 24 years
DD13 - the love of my life
DDay#1 11/10/2012
DDay#4 4/5/2013 (NC broken AGAIN)
A supposedly over 6/14/2013

All my posts are edited - I hate typos. :)


Posts: 129 | Registered: Nov 2012
MC_Jack
♂ Member
Member # 35016
Default  Posted: 9:05 AM, August 23rd (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

jack...i also believe you should tell your wife when things bother you....at some point she need not know the details of your triggers, but just that you triggered...imho....a good marriage is where BOTH parties feel SAFE to talk the other about anything and everything...when you don't feel safe then you will find an outlet....would mean your needs are not being met...and when your needs are not met you are not in a mutually satisfying relationship....

^^^ Very well said IWAM. I have found myself over the last couple of months holding stuff in as I have been concerned about my own emotional regulation and a desire to not let the A suck all of the oxygen out of the room and dominate every conversation or experience. I think I was over-doing it...

[This message edited by MC_Jack at 9:06 AM, August 23rd (Friday)]


I am not a marriage counselor. I chose "MC Jack" in the spirit of a handle like "MC Hammer" or Young MC"...there is a lot of 'rapping' here, no? At the time I did not know what MC stood for on this site. Duh.

Posts: 792 | Registered: Mar 2012 | From: West Coast of Hopa-hopa-land
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