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User Topic: Long Term Affairs - Part 32
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Default  Posted: 10:47 AM, August 23rd (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

DH, your WH may or may not be waking up but please be very careful. IMO, this alone is a huge red flag...

His phone is still locked up like Fort Knox.

The A may truly be over but the fact that he is still not 100% transparent with you still means he's not all in. So keep being vigilante and keep focusing on you.

My false year of R started with a vacation to the Islands. We had a great time and essentially rugswept while we were there but a comment my STBX made on the last day didn't click until much later. She told me that she could tell on the last day when my mind went back home because my entire demeanor changed. She and I both basically rugswept the next year away until her issues resurfaced again. She wasn't happy and since she never took the time to actually fix her issues they remained.

I don't say this to be negative, just to say be careful and continue to watch your WH's actions. If the A is over then he may be trying to clean up the mess he made at home now that he no longer has options. He left cow pies all over your M and the problem with that is you can only shine a turd so much. It's still a turd. If he doesn't actually pick up the cow pies, thoroughly exam them, figure out what they are then he is just shining them instead of picking them up and throwing them over the fence. I mean really who wants to go picking through poop but that is what doing the hard work is like. It's doing some of the toughest, nastiest digging into yourself that someone can do and he has to do it or YOU will never feel safe.

You've been on the defensive so long that it feels when things go well for a bit. But if you are like many fo us that itch in the back of your head won't go away. It gets fainter and fainter when they actually do the work and you can see it. When they don't do the work the itch gets worse no matter how things SEEM to be going. Call it an itch ora gut feeling. Just remember to listen to it whether it's telling you good things or bad.

So I don't say this to discourage you or insinuate that your WH is not changing. You are there with him everyday. Just keep focusing on you and your life because if you do find that he is still in the A or in fact is a dry adulterer then you will still have kept moving forward with building your life. He has the choice on whether to fix himself to a point where he remains in your life or you move on without him.

The realization of false R hurt me worse than Dday. The pain didn't last as long but it was much sharper especially since for me the signs were there all along that STBXW wasn't actually doing anything to change herself. Just remember to keep taking care of yourself throughout this. I wish you the best.

D-day 5/24/11
BH = Me
2 children
The first true sense of calm I felt in YEARS was when I filed for D...
Separated 6/2013, D official around 6/2014

Posts: 1583 | Registered: May 2011
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Default  Posted: 5:18 PM, August 23rd (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi all!

I have rarely posted here but felt compelled to chime in around the issue of our responsibilities in our marriages, settling, etc.

I am reexamining my entire relationship with my H based on what I have learned in the last 11 months. I realize that I was "settling" for less than I deserved or what he was capable of, but unless this shitstorm happened I never would have known.

I knew he had a tendency to withdraw and was quite selfish. I knew he had major concerns around being controlled, including around sex ( always had to be on his terms). I knew he could be moody, even at times depressive. I addressed these issues at times, as gently as possible, to no avail. Then I looked around at other marriages and found that ours was as good or better than most. He worked hard, was kind and complimentary, a decent father. I buckled down and built the best life I could for our family. I did know that the maintenance of the M was all on me--never once has he asked to talk about our relationship, sex, etc or tried to make it better--but I had enough energy for two! We had a great life, he admired, loved and respected me and told me often. He participated enthusiastically in the trips, weekends away, ballroom dancing (ok that enthusiasm took time!!), athletic endeavors, even during his LTA.

So how was I to know that he only had 80% of himself available? Until I got to see him fully open, honest and present? Even during the LTA he took the 5% he gave her out of his secret, toxic, shameful 20% so I truly never missed it. His ability to compartmentalize was that complete. He was just the same.

So what is settling vs being "mature" and realistic about people's shortcomings? I wouldn't have divorced my H because he was lazy around the house.

Of course now it is different. This is my potential payoff for this shitstorm. The transformation has been amazing. He is so much more at peace, so much happier, so open, generous, vulnerable. And I can initiate sex any time I want with at a minimum a good time had by me!

So beyond puzzling through how I unwittingly chose a CSA survivor and convinced myself that his cheating on me when we were dating did not preclude my marrying him, I really don't hold myself responsible for settling, or frankly for any of it. I was always the best wife I knew how to be.

Thanks for listening while I rambled!

Dday -9/24/2012

Posts: 1654 | Registered: Oct 2012 | From: northeast
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Default  Posted: 6:29 PM, August 23rd (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

catlover-good post!
you were not rambling at all!

Me- BS
Him- WH
Long term marriage
D-day- Jan. 2007
5 yr. LTA

Posts: 3139 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: NJ
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Default  Posted: 8:23 PM, August 23rd (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks njgal!

Dday -9/24/2012

Posts: 1654 | Registered: Oct 2012 | From: northeast
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Default  Posted: 4:57 PM, August 24th (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

RP.. bravo!!! Great attitude

Nell.. excellent!!! Looking to the future and not the past.

DH.. glad you enjoyed your vacation and were treated nicely. The Fort Knox thing is trouble with a capital T. If (when) you are prepared to deal with a possible D then this needs to be dealt with then, promptly and bluntly. Disclosure is up to you but transparency is a must. You could say all devices must be accessible to me beginning on next Saturday to give him time to clean them up. If he is unwilling to do so, you will know where you stand.

Jack.. I am sorry that you seem to be struggling lately and hopefully your actions will push your WW off dead center to address her issues, begin to more actively support your healing and work on your M together. Good luck!

In h&c land, the in house separation has been difficult. School starts next week for all and we will begin to more actively work on the D. stbxww has found a place to buy so our situation will be improving soon.

I have followed the discussion on attractiveness and choices. I had a conversation this week and it evolved into "three good choices that I had made in my life"
The university I attended. Everyone had such exceptional character!
After graduation from college, I chose to live with my parents for two years. During this time, I got to know them as individuals and not just parents. It was one of the most enjoyable and rewarding times in my life.
Marrying my wise!

DS was puzzled by this last one. "but I thought you were getting divorced". I responded briefly with an example of DD and her boyfriend going to different colleges and probable breaking up. It did not mean that they should not have dated each other exclusively in high school. He immediately understood.

Which brings me to the subject of DENIAL. I became a better person by knowing my W, my life was enriched in many ways. We raised a wonderful family together and had many enjoyable times together. I appreciate and acknowledge these facts.

My stbxww made a horrific choice to have an A and this has hurt me very deeply. And though I have offered her the opportunity to R, she has chosen not to and this also hurts.

Which brings me back to the subject of DENIAL. stbxww denies that she chose to marry me having told MC that "I just followed h&c's lead". well, as some of you may recall my wife is Jewish and I am not and this was a very big deal and she knew it. Initial comments from her mom, a relatives letter "I am writing to stop this wedding", and an excursion into a Jewish dating service in the middle of our courtship. And after having been friends, it was her that initiated our romantic relationship. Recently, she was musing "what if we had not vacationed together.." a specific turning point in our relationship.

And this past week, stbxww approaches me in the morning to tell me why we must D and says "I never enjoyed having sex with you, yes you brought me pleasure but I never enjoyed having sex with you" What an evil bitch! We are divorcing and even if true there is no point to inflict further pain on a person that has supported her for over 20 years.

So I spent this past week reflecting on our M when I should have been working. We had our issues, small ones. And we had wonderful times together, including sexually, until the time when she started her A.

So IMH, she made a horrific choice to have an A and now cannot go back without crushing herself emotionally and spiritually. She has to DENY the existence of the good times in our M in order to justify her choice to have an A which is truly counter to her core values. She has been on A-D since DDay and tells me se would fall apart if she stopped taking them.

So I have shared with her my reflections on our M and the false tenets that she only followed my lead in getting married and that our sex life was not enjoyable for her. I did this in a loving way, absent f anger, and let her know that I will no longer tolerate these type of behaviors from her. I have since seen a positive change in her treatment and respect for me.

It will take some time for the D to be processed and finalized. It will take some time for her to close on a home and settle into it. I will be patient and supportive as I have been for many years. That is who I am.

Today, I have a greater sense of peace than I have felt in a long time. I have give it my best! And my best is very very good!

Many thanks to the tribe for the wonderful insights and support provided throughout this journey.

Be safe! Be happy! Be healthy! Live with ease!


BH (me, 50)
WS (her, 48)
3 wonderful teens
Heading for Happiness

Posts: 401 | Registered: Sep 2011
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Default  Posted: 6:05 PM, August 24th (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Glad to hear that you are sounding so strong! You are right to look back on your life and your marriage and to acknowledge the good-especially your children!

What I don't understand is your WW's need to hurt you? OK we get it-you don't want to stay married. OK-we get had an affair.
But, why the need to bring this stuff up out of the blue?
Seriously? Is she that selfish and cold that she does not understand how painful it is for the BS to hear this kind of criticism?

I'm sure you're right-it's her way to shift blame for everything.
But, it is awful.
So sorry that you have to deal with this.

What is the timeline for her to move out?

Me- BS
Him- WH
Long term marriage
D-day- Jan. 2007
5 yr. LTA

Posts: 3139 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: NJ
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Default  Posted: 7:08 PM, August 24th (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

stbxww is not being intentionally cruel, IMO, it is just the internal justification for the A that she must go through in order to preserve her own emotional well being. Facing and examining what she did is just too much for her to handle.

There is no definte timeline. She could make an offer and possibly in a new place by October. No guaranttes on the offer acceptance.

It is okay, I can live with it and be patience. She has been my wife for over 20 years and I will give her the time necessary to start her life anew without me as her husband. I will not put pressure on her to make hasty decisions.


BH (me, 50)
WS (her, 48)
3 wonderful teens
Heading for Happiness

Posts: 401 | Registered: Sep 2011
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Default  Posted: 7:53 PM, August 24th (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

it is just the internal justification for the A that she must go through in order to preserve her own emotional well being

h & C - Your W's behavior and your comment above are classic examples of cognitive dissonance. So many of our (F)WS's spent years justifying their A's by telling themselves lies in order to diminish any discomfort they may have felt by continuing the A. One definition of cognitive dissonance that makes sense to me is:
Dissonance theory suggests that if individuals act in ways that contradict their beliefs, then they typically will change their beliefs to align with their actions (or vice-a-versa).
Your W is redefining your marital history in negative terms to minimize the discomfort and possible uncertainty she may be experiencing in order to follow through with the D. I imagine she is very conflicted at times. The very fact that she had to come to you to tell you "why we must D and says "I never enjoyed having sex with you," to me sounds like she has a very real internal struggle going on and needs to justify to herself the course of her current actions.

When my H and I were in MC'ing, I had my H make a list of those lies he told himself in order to justify his A to himself and then another list of those things about our M that were real and true that we could work on together to improve the quality of our M. This was very eye-opening for him to compare these 2 distinct lists and somewhat shocking to me to read the nonsense lies he told himself during his LTA.

I think the theory of cognitive dissonance is so interesting and helpful in getting to the "how" of our S's LTA's.

I am glad to hear you sounding so strong. Your W is a very foolish woman, IMHO, and it wouldn't surprise me one bit to find out that she lives to regret this current course she is set on.
(((H & C)))

D-day - 12/23/05 LTA - 8 years.
"Love's a matter of trust and I just want to believe in us." M McBride

Posts: 1901 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: A tunnel where I'm beginning to see the light
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Default  Posted: 8:28 AM, August 25th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi all, to refresh everyone, I am a relative newbie, just joined this thread on page 20. I just discovered my husbands 3 year affair when his mistress confronted me after she became frustrated that he did not leave his family for her. It's been about a month.

My husband, while apologetic when asked, seems to want to forget the whole thing. I think he is relieved that I did not divorce him the week I found out( we have been married over 18 years). I don't think it registers with him that inaction on my part does not equal forgiveness. If I am honest with myself I don't know what I want. We have kids, so they are and have been a huge factor in deciding not to do anything until I can get my head around what has been going on.

I got some great advice on this thread and I am currently working through the book Sexual Detours which was suggested here. I like it quite a bit but I had a question. In the book it says 65 percent of marriages end when an affair is discovered. That sounds so high based on other sources. I am curious because since my husband while apologetic, is certainly not remorseful, and I am feeling indifferent. It's just so quiet around here, no one on the surface is fighting for anything, therefore, is my strategy of waiting a bit just stupid? Am I postponing the inevitable? At what point is behavior reflective of what is going on inside? On the surface we are cordial, with my husband being nicer than he has been in a while but certainly not working to win back my affection, somehow I think he is acting like I should just be grateful he picked me. For me, I feel like there is a hurricane going on inside but on the outside its been getting the kids ready for the start of school, and having additional responsibilities at work where I just got a promotion. Not only have I not shown him much anger, I am hardly showing it to myself. I have allowed the kids and work and their demands to allow me to feel indifferent in some respects to my husbands underwhelming apology.

Maybe this is what people mean by fog, but does the fog envelope both partners?

Posts: 57 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: Midwest
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Default  Posted: 9:34 AM, August 25th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

FNF.. thanks. Cognitive Dissonance. Changing beliefs to match actions or vice versa. Internal conflict.

You just provided more insigt than any of the MC did for my W and I. During her A, we went to religous services often at her request. She would remark how important to her. And later she would remark how she obtained little spirituality from attending services. Yes, internal conflict.

At the beginning of this year, she resumed IC and told me it was not to work on our M but to detach from me and told me how hard it was to do so.. Really? I do not have those negative behaviours one needs to detach from. Alcoholic, no. Abusive, no. Controlling, no. Unfaithful, no. Other addictive, no. Just a lowyal husband providing steady financial and emotional support to her and our children.

Walking... back to school time is busy and it will take a lot of your nergy. But if your WH is not fighting for you and the M then there is nothing you can do to restore your M as it should be for you. Some WS do get it, others never do get it. And the timeline for those WS that do get it is very differnt. I have no advice to offer just my best wishes for you and your children to survive and thrive.

Be safe! Be happy! Be healthy! Live with ease!


BH (me, 50)
WS (her, 48)
3 wonderful teens
Heading for Happiness

Posts: 401 | Registered: Sep 2011
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Default  Posted: 11:13 AM, August 25th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

You look at the past only to make wise decisions into your future. Knowing behaviors and what to do to confront those behaviors is another.

I hear Iwant say.. “just talk to them.. let them know” so true.. the hard part is when you do… how do they react. How you say things is that important. The follow up is that important. What you accept and not accept by overcoming all those fears.

You want happiness? Then control what you can control. Yourself.

IMHO these people-both the men and women were unhappy....what were they unhappy about? often nonsense.

I could not agree more. See, I can control my own happiness; I cannot control the happiness of others. If I can control my own happiness, then others are welcome to join me in my journey. If not, then, so be it.

I would never blame myself for a car thief stealing my car! Even if I left the keys in the car.

This might be where I different a bit. IMO, happiness depends on you being aware of your won surroundings. It is important to realize, accept, know some very important GIVENS in life. These are things that happen in life we cannot change.
(1) everything changes and ends
(2) things do not always go according to plan
(3) life is not always fair
(4) pain is a part of life
(5) people are not loving and loyal all the time.

I can plan ahead and lock my door. I can control myself. This protects me from a thief in most cases.
But things don’t always go according to plan. Life is not always fair. Pain is part of life. People are not loving and loyal all of the time.

I can lock my door and most thieves won’t attempt to steal the car. But fact is, some know how to pick the lock or even break a window. If I lock the door, my odds of happiness by not having my car stolen is far greater. It does not mean it won’t get stolen.

I contend you never take for granted, be naïve, ignorant, behave in ways behind those famous last words, “I do”. If you do, pain will certainly happen.

I cannot disagree that life gets busy, we get lackadaisical, we focus on our kids, our work; and those are all good things we must do when having responsibilities. Nobody is perfect. Priorities get pushed to the top.

I can take responsibility for those things in my life I pushed to the top while allowing other things to get pushed to the back.

In an LTA, we put certain thing on a lower priority. We did and maybe at the same time our spouses did too. But we can only control what WE do.

I have no doubt my wife is very a very weak woman. She still is in many ways to this day. I cannot change my wife because she is who she wants to be. And at the same time, I have no doubt I also a very weak man. I can change that. Sure, I can lie to myself and say, no I was perfect, I was adequate, I did my part.. etc.. and YES, it was possible that I was doing the best of my ability at that time. I felt I was doing my part and at my highest level possible. Yes, inside my soul and being, I was who I was and I was being what I felt responsible. Just because I believed I was “that good” does not mean I was doing all the right things to be attractive to a point someone not dare cheat, risk losing me. Obviously, my wife felt inside the risk was worth the reward. Something was missing in our relationship.

I am not going to tell you some people are not just broken. Some people are. Some are broken for short temporary periods of time and long periods of time. Some people will never “get it”.

What is important is we develop, we know, we understand, and WE “get it”. Because to seek and protect our own happiness, we must “get it” so that we know when to accept certain things and when not to accept. We must get it to see risk our emotions again and when not too.
At nearly 5 years out, I can now see something about all LTA. We had something not quite right about us. I realize that by my saying that comment, I will bring some people pain. I know today that with pain CAN come resolution. Conflicts can and do resolve.

We can choose anyone we want to love. If we know the ideal needs of any human, that love will last if that person reacts to goodness. It is also important to understand, some people just cannot be healthy. I happen to think most people react and respond well to being loved the right way. We in LTA may think we knew at the time, but in all honestly, we didn’t.

If we did, our situations would not have been Long term. We would have brought the conflict to a head far earlier, far sooner, or maybe before a relationship started to get “connected” It is important for us to learn new behaviors , know them, understand them, have the courage to behave, confront, to not accept or enable, to take personal responsibility for ourselves.

My best friends are now involved in a conflict with their daughter. Of course we all get the love as parents. Their daughter has fallen in the addictive trap. The consequences of her actions have caused my friends great pain both monetary and mental. This 17 year old is in jail. Sure my friends are in great pain. A given we all face at some point in our lives. I admire the way my friend are handling their situation. They first gave their DD some consequences. She resisted, she continued bad behavior. The consequences advance to the point today.. she is no longer going to be enabled. Nearing 18, they can do no more. She is very close to the ultimatum.. there DD will no longer be part of their lives. The DD is close to some serious consequences in her life.. Fucking it up. She will end up in misery for years to come. My friends gave this DD many chances, that is all they can do. The time comes when they have had “enough”. Their own misery will come to an end because they eliminate misery from their lives. It will be a 3-4 year period they will look back time on in sadness.. but can rejoice in the fact their other two kids are.. healthy.

I can sit here on my high horse and say.. They should have done this or that. Bars on the window so she would not have slipped away at night to seek drugs and sex. Those kinds of things. My friends seek what they could have done differently, I get that. They could have done a few things different. But what they had I didn’t was when the bad behavior started, they did something about it. They could see it, they behaved in ways the DD was going to react. The reaction was going to be good or bad.

I read most of you to get my message.

I say in a LTA there were some things we must discover about ourselves so we don’t allow misery to continue or be a part of our lives. They are numerous. . They must be right and fair to be most attractive.. They must bring equality in the relationship for both to be completely happy…

Honest, I don’t view this as beating up myself. I get where a person can say..” I am going to beat myself up” IMO, it is a good value to have one of personal responsibility. I personally take for all that happens to me in life. It does not mean I knew it all. I can and do forgive myself for my own bad behaviors and my part.

If I live in a part of town you never need to lock the door, we get complacent.. when we then go to a bad part of town, we may not think to lock the door. A thief is most likely to occur. Evil is part of life that goes back to the beginning of time and will continue to the end of time.

For reasons, our society has fallen into the trap that the famous last words, “I do” is the security we accept. We accept is as what it should be, only to find 30-60% of all marriage end up in cheating. And knowing this we get married and yet we fail to protect ourselves. In most marriages I am sure the behaviors of one or both are not what is required. Yes we fell into the web. Only very few marriages have the success where both are most happy. Those are the ones where both try hard to give to each other. Part of giving is also the strength to lead the other when going down the path of failure. In a good marriage when going down that path, a good reaction occurs, not a bad one. When the good reaction does not occur.. we find a new path, a new change, which could mean a new partner who does understand healthy relationships.. We must be able to fully understand what is healthy.. What we do.. it matter only what others do because our strength is to eliminate those who are unhealthy in our lives.. Unhealthy people will bring you misery. Get rid of them. I can forgive myself for not being healthy.

If I was healthy, I know with certainty, I would have discovered a long time before my W cheated her second time. My wife would have reacted by following my lead or not. If not, she would have left me because the consequences of my own intentional behaviors would have made her life so miserable she would have left far sooner than staying and being a cheat.
Five years ago, when my true identity was revealed, I was most unhealthy. If I was healthy at that time, my W today would not be my W. In fact, years before that she would not have been my W. I cannot change the fact I was not healthy then but I have change my own values and behaviors to be one of most healthy. I forgive myself for my past. I just did not know. All I can do today is be the most healthy person I can be. And I also know it is not easy to change. I do know the first step is to make sure you admit and not lie to yourself thinking you we that perfect. I do know it is not good to think no matter what you did or did not do things should have been different no matter. It is the law of nature that caught up to us.. Therefore we must lock that door. It does not mean we sacrifice our own peace and be overly protective.
An to RP thoughts.. They too are most healthy . I know at the time I picked my W, I got what I picked because of who I was. At the time, yes that was the right choice for me. That does not mean I would pick her today. If she was who she was back then today and I am who I am today, NO she would not be my wife. Way too many bad behaviors would have influenced my choice. We both have learned.
I would not make my choice the same. It does not mean I regret my choice. My W can be a beautiful woman and many aspects of her are attractive. We made beautiful child who connect us forever. That is now our connection. It does not mean should she not change, did not change, will not change and be healthy I stay with that. To your point, I forgive my W for her past sins. Because I do, I change my own behaviors to be the most loving man I can be. It was not her choice for me to forgive, it was my choice. Since it was my choice, I take personal responsibility to make sure she gets what she deserves in life. And with the new me I expect, demand, for our relationship to be mutually satisfactory.

What are some of these questions we must answer and have the courage to conflict. What was it about us where we let..

Their needs trump everyone else's needs.

*** The love of touch
- Why did I stop having sex with my spouse and/or my spouse stop having sex with me?
- Why was I happy not having sex in my life?
- Why did I stop touching my spouse with my hands?
- Why did I allow myself or my spouse second to.. anything?
- Why did I stop making out with my spouse.. FREQUENTLY
- Why did I not make the time to be interesting, different, try new things sexually, please my spouse, be adventurous?
- Why did I think 3 way sex, orgy, or another’s vagina or penis would be a good thing with my spouse?
- Why did I need porn to satisfy me?
- Why did I think it was OK to allow my spouse the satisfaction of porn?
- What is it about me I live in fear not to share my sexual needs, thoughts, and desires?
- What is it about me where sex is the ultimate affirmation?
- What is it about me where I desire that much a body that so tight like a 20 year old?
- What is it about me where I let myself go in a physical sense?
- What is it about me where I allowed my spouse to continue on an unhealthy physical path?
- What was it about me I could not motivate, attract, lead, my spouse down the path of mutually loving each other with touch?
- Why did I stop being romantic?
- Why did I not notice my spouse not being romantic to me?
- Why did I not initiate sex to my spouse?
- Why did not confront my spouse not initiate sex with me?
- Why do I accept on this kind of love at the expense of others?
*** The love of words of affirmation
- Why did I let it go when my spouse criticized me?
- Do I criticize?
- Do I conflict fairly when my spouse says the wrong thing?
- What is it about me to accept never being given good words?
- What is it about me to never or rarely compliment, build up, say things for security?
- Why didn’t I say things in public to promote my spouse?
- What was it about me to cut others down in front of my spouse or go along with negativity when my spouse said ugly things?
- Why did accept ugly words said about anyone?
- Why did I go silent when things needed to be said? What was my fear? Why did I fear? Why did I just accept?
- Why do I accept this kind of love at the expense of the other types of love?

*** The love of gifts
- Why did I not remember an important date to my spouse with some sort of gift?
- Why did I think Valentine’s day is not an important romantic day for my spouse?
- Why don’t I just give gifts that will make my spouse feel good for no good occasion?
- Why did I behavior without grace when a gift was given me?
- Why did I need so many gifts?
- Do those gifts really mean that much they will affect my emotions?
- Why did I stand by and allow my spouse give gifts to others when they had no right because it should have been a mutual gift?
- Why do I accept this kind of love at the expense of others?
- Why do I not love myself with an earned gift?

*** The love of service
- Why did I get lazy when I know what my responsibility is?
- Why did I do my spouses job in the relationship?
- What was it about myself were I wasting family money and time?
- What is it about myself I cannot accept I need to work hard and cannot accept the unfairness?
- Why do I make myself miserable accepting unfairness?
- Why cannot I communicate effectively so understanding about responsibilities are understood and executed?
- Why do I accept mediocrity if I need equality?
- Why do I accept service and give nothing in return?
- Why do I accept service in exchange for my own security sacrificing my own happiness?
Why do I accept this kind of love at the expense of others?
*** The love of Quality time
- What was it about me I did not make the most of the time we had together?
- What was it about me where I made the choice to give my time to others a higher priority?
- What was it I did not make the time?
- Why did I accept my spouse not giving me time?
- What was it about me in fear not to make the change necessary to spend more time with each other?
- Why didn’t I see and fight for quality time I needed for myself?
- What was it about me I needed too much time with my spouse?
- What was it about me I feared the time my spouse needed on their own?
- Why did not pay attention to the time my spouse needed on their own?
- Why did not see the dangerous quality time that was not good for the marriage?
- What was it about me where I did not see a bad behavior?
- What was it about me where I

I am going to read Dr. Scott David Haltzman book Honest recommended. Thanks Honest for the recommendation. Reading and understanding these books is one thing, execution is another.

[This message edited by trynhard at 11:15 AM, August 25th (Sunday)]

Posts: 2636 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
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Default  Posted: 12:07 PM, August 25th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

You have done much to improve yourself and your marriage. I would assume that your relationships with everyone in your life has improved, in addition to your primary relationship with your wife.

Your post shows a great deal of healthy boundaries and introspection. But I challenge you to really think about this portion of your long post:

Just because I believed I was “that good” does not mean I was doing all the right things to be attractive to a point someone not dare cheat, risk losing me. Obviously, my wife felt inside the risk was worth the reward. Something was missing in our relationship.

tryn, you can't control your wife's decisions. You can't control her valuation of you as a husband or her marriage as her primary relationship. There is no magic mix of loving words, masculine leadership, sex, etc.that will keep her from deciding that Frank at the gym or Mike at the office would be fun to bounce on the side. You can't be perfect enough to force her to be faithful.

Does that mean that you should stop trying to improve yourself or your marriage? Absolutely not! Just free yourself from the delusion of control. Let her decide for herself what she wants. Tell her what you expect, but realize that she will do or not do whatever she decides based on her own viewpoints. She owns her decisions and you own yours.

You know that I spent a lot of time trying to teach Daffy how to be a good partner. You counseled me about my loooooooong list of "don't be a jackass." Remember those? What a joke! When I finally figured out that I needed to watch his actions instead of trying to get him to act like he should, it was both heartbreaking and an amazing relief.

BS & D
Drinking wine and thinking bliss is on the other side of this.

Posts: 2370 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Baby steps on my new path
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Default  Posted: 12:26 PM, August 25th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I will share with you fine folks my own challenges to be most attractive and expectations to be most happy and peace. I think I can share this and maybe you will understand it completely.

Other than the time between Catlover50 and me.. it is no different. I too went through a period of evaluation.. and I posted the heck out of it.. lol.. Should I not do the same in a healthy way?

Here goes…

My wife’s behavior is not filling a need for me that is most important. Some woman may not get this and be greatly offended. It is defended by many women as part of a physical or mental part of who they are.

This is a behavior of my W’s that begins when I first met my wife. It is going to be something she is going to change if she wants me. I cannot change her behavior, she must change it. It is only her choice, not mine. In almost our whole relationship, we have had for a long time this behavior and she never really has had this behavior toward me. It does not matter to me if she has had this with any other man. It only matters if she has this with me. It does not even matter if today in secret she has this with another man or even another woman!

The behavior is my wife never initiate sex.

This past year and a half, I have put my pain and fear in a good place and focused only on myself which has been controlling my emotions, giving, being most attractive, and being the best man I am capable of doing. All these things I have received very positive reactions from my W. She has greatly enjoyed the new me. I wanted her to enjoy a new me and she is welcome to join me.

I have been very romantic to my wife in ways like never before. She responds as well as any woman capacity and in a way I would expect any woman to respond. She seems very comfortable with the way I treat her. I focus hard in all aspects of languages of love and I can see and I do experience much reciprocity given by her own choice, not mine. She is most good at the giving the love of service, the love of gifts, the love of quality time…

Here love of words of affirmation and touch is not what I need. I could accept the levels of those languages but I’m now certain I don’t want too. See, this is about me, not my W.

My W may not be capable of giving those languages. She might be like my friends DD who is so into herself and what she thinks she needs, she must find love in some other way.

I have come to realize that my focus on giving far exceeds what I get in return in those areas. If I lock the car door and someone breaks the window, I have done all I can. People will still steal for their own gratification and need. People will take and take an not give back. It is part of life. When I come out to my car and find my $450 GPS gone, yes it is misery. True, I locked the door but the device got stolen. If I had left the door unlocked, I can fault myself. Yes, there is a line to be drawn in MC’s analogy.

My W understands sex is part of all relationships. Sex brings many emotions and connections. To most men I know, some willing to sacrifice never having his woman initiate, one who does say yes every time. To some men, his woman initiate every time too. I know to the ideal M, both must contribute. It does not mean equally… 80/20 or 10/90.. but mutually a yes.

I can romance my W 2-3 times and week most positive results. I can even go for a rumble without a no. It is rarely or ever a NO. It is not that… I appreciate all she does in that way.

Within me, something is missing. It is that affirmation. It is a feeling I have yet to shake even when I make the choice to try and shake it. She should know a man, this man, needs his woman to make sure it is known he is her lion.

Do I think had she never cheated, she could get away with this kind of love? Yes. Has the dynamics of her adultery changed feelings within me? Yes.

The times we communicate she does listen. When I have said what I need, my W will appease me. Appeasing is not what I desire in life. She listens, but my belief is she knows she has a man who has wealth, potential much greater wealth, security, gifts, services, good words and never critical, freedoms, and someone who has it within himself to give her what she reads in those romance novels.. she accepts those, likes them, and in her own language of love gives me things very similar to those her mother give to her father. And I am very grateful and want those things too. She thinks the way she loves is adequate to keep all those blessing I give her.

This is the beginning of a conflict that may end in some temporary discomfort.

I have made the attempt to withhold that love of touch I give her. She will snuggle with me but never start or even invite me to have sex. Signals perhaps I am supposed to read.. but fails in complete execution if I don’t take them and run with them. I am not going to accept the secret signals of any woman. The games I play perhaps. Perhaps even a shit test by me.

She might call a date which is very romantic and positive only to end in nothing more than a good night kiss.

Ladies, I have heard the defenses of her behaviors. They no longer apply to me. I have had enough. You also know there are woman who use that power to steal your man.

I have strength within me and strong morality not to fail in my vows. But I am at a place and read enough to know, men like me fall into evil when they have emotions like mine.

A conflict is coming to my W I can only pray she lives up to her own vow to me. I now know that there comes a point in life when you protect yourself. My W must now protect her own happiness. Perhaps what I have been trying to tell all is that when you protect your own happiness and needs the results will be you end in a good place. My W is going to either enjoy my blessing or not.

See, in your own heart, every one of us should want to love our spouses completely to live up to the vow. If one fails to know how, to intentionally not give, to fail in communication, accepts less, your spouse’s heart will go to someone else. And if they hang around in misery, that means you are the problem because you are not doing those things to meet their needs. Any kind of mis-match is going to be an issue.

And to fill a need can be as simple as initiating sex. How hard is that?

In comparison, How hard is it for me to make the effort to make strong words of affirmation in a public place around others so my W knows my true feelings and state them? How hard is it for me to plan a day in advance to start flirting, start warming my wife up to the point where she then wants me? It is not hard. It comes so natural when we have someone we first meet in relationships. Yet for many reasons.. we fail ourselves by not making sure we keep that up.

How hard is it in your youth to see smoking pot, having sex, not behaving the way those who feed you food, love you with services, good words… Accepting going to jail in exchange for not behaving in a way where your adrenaline takes control of your mind. For whatever reason, others make bad choices. And even if I did choose a drug addict to love, why did I continue to love that mess.

A question I have answered will take much control by me. It is no different than to stop smoking..

Why do I want to make love to a woman who possibly only wants to appease me for my other gifts of love? I don’t.

I should only love a woman who wants to love me.

My choice is no different than men here who give there woman a D because that is what they want.

I know my language of love. My W could rarely ever need to give me a gift. I can clean my own mess and others too. I do that. I can also live in a mess to a point. My W does not even need a job.

But for me to stand by and take not being love in my language, like so many years, is just plain stupidity.

There will be people who will advise me to accept what I am being given. Accept the way others love you and sacrifice my W never saying No to my invitation. Yes, that is a good value my wife does not say No. But she fails me by my never getting the invitation.

Some will say, all M get to this point. That may be true…. but some don’t. I know this, those that do get to this point have issues. Men need their woman to initiate sex despite some men just burying it deep inside and accepting. Some men just accept it and never say it… but want it. Please, all men who never want their woman to invite them to have sex, please tell me why you don’t want that to happen? if you are not impotent? I have yet to discuss this with even a 70 year old.

I am bringing on a conflict that is going to take a few months to execute it properly. It is my thoughts I can lead my wife to a better relationship like I have done is so many other areas. I do believe she is going to get this.

I started a couple months ago. I told her that she could fill a need I have by inviting me to have sex with her. The conversation was fair and she gave me her thoughts. It went into the physical part of being a woman and I am OK with that. Frankly, the thoughts just never pop in her head to have sex with me. I get that because it has been us for over 20 years. What she fails to understand is she must create those thoughts and desires herself. I cannot nor will teach her. I have done my part by expressing what I need. Nell, you have been here..

She made an effort in a couple short days.. Not the kind of invite I expected, but none the less, an effort. I viewed that as a positive first step. I took over and did my thing. But nothing after that. I am in no illusion of what I need.. I don’t want or need some porn star.. a woman who just “lust”.. afterall for a man she’s had for 30 years!

So I posed a Retrouvaille question to her to dialogue.. Retrouvaille is a communication tool. I was hoping she would then take the ball and run with it.. but nothing.. her conflict avoidance kicked in. You all know.. most of our spouses in A’s avoid conflicts.

She can try and hide but it is not going to work. I will ask her does she want to dialogue? If not, She is going to get the following…

“Honey, we can avoid what I need to discuss or we can come together and try to make a better M. It would not be fair to you if I avoided your needing me to do a chore you often ask, and I expect the same. Now we are going to dialogue, talk about this or not, it is your choice. But let me assure you, if we cannot come to some sort of resolution, you are not going to like what I do. ”

The pressure I will place on her will ramp up. It will start with words.. It will progress with my stop loving her in some of the ways she so desires… It will end with an ultimatum… a fair mutual rewarding ultimatum… the consequences with be her making the choice not to live up to her vows. I will be at peace with my choice no different than 7years or Nell.

Sounds simple but it will be very hard for me.

[This message edited by trynhard at 12:39 PM, August 25th (Sunday)]

Posts: 2636 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
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Default  Posted: 12:29 PM, August 25th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Good morning, Walking! I am so sorry that you had to join our ranks, but I am glad that you found us. The tribe here is wonderful. Lots of wisdom, kindness, and support.

I can relate to a lot of what you have shared here. To answer some of your questions, yes the "fog" can envelope both BS and WS. However, what you might be actually going through is the shock and denial stage. I have found that d-day is a lot like a death. You go through the same grief cycles as if someone has died.

I was told about my FWH's affair from the OW, although OW was pretending to be its dead ex-husband. Sent me a letter. OW was angry that FWH finally told it that he didn't even want to be friends with it and that we weren't going to double date with it and its BF. I digress, sorry. Just wanted to let you know I can relate to the vindictive OW scenario.

When I first read the letter, I really kind of didn't believe it. In fact, I kind of laughed. Then I looked at FWH and all his body language was screaming at me. He denied, denied, denied for a couple of hours and then finally agreed to some of it. But, I wasn't even really pissed. A little, but mostly, I just totally shut down that part of me. I know I was sad and devastated, crying A LOT, felt needy and clingy, but the anger would just appear a little and not in a big way.

I didn't find SI until almost 8 months after d-day. I so wish I had found it sooner, it would have explained so much what I would go through. At about 5-6 months out is when the shock started wearing off and the anger started moving in and hitting big time.

My FWH was remorseful, but had a hard time showing it. (He also said he was "emotionally retarded", his words.) He just didn't know what to do. Everything I asked for he pretty much did. The thing was, I didn't really know what I needed. Finding SI was such a turning point in our reconciliation journey. Have you seen the thread in the Wayward forum called "Things Every WS needs to know" ? I printed that off and gave it to FWH. He started doing the things suggested in that thread and it was the very things I needed.

therefore, is my strategy of waiting a bit just stupid? Am I postponing the inevitable? At what point is behavior reflective of what is going on inside?
I feel it is wise to wait a bit, Walking. As I said, I believe you are in shock, and decisions made in shock or anger probably aren't always the best decisions. We had a 14 year old at home still when d-day rolled around. (DS's 14th birthday week) That was a major point as to why I was willing to give FWH a CHANCE to prove to me his remorsefulness, his love, his ability to change. If we didn't have a child at home I feel I may have kicked his ass to the curb on d-day, but probably still would have given him a chance. I didn't kick him to the curb because of our DS.

I don't feel you are postponing the inevitable if your WH is remorseful. What are you two doing and what is WH doing to show you remorse and that behaviour is changing or working on change? Is there NC with OW? Is there transparency?


[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 12:32 PM, August 25th (Sunday)]

BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson

Posts: 8984 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
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Default  Posted: 12:43 PM, August 25th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Men need their woman to initiate sex
tryn' I heartily agree with you on this point. I can imagine the hurt and loss you must feel is devastating to you. I know how I would feel in that scenario and I know I would feel so much damage to my self worth and self esteem.

I would never suggest anyone settle for less than they deserve, tryn'. None of us should settle. We already did that, didn't work so great did it, tribe?

BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson

Posts: 8984 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
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Default  Posted: 12:55 PM, August 25th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My hurt.. I can handle that hurt but in a very good place.. My hurt is far less than what you can imagine.

So you might understand.. My hurt is more like you working hard and deserve a promotion in business. Since you work for a Japanese company, you are pass over because some man from Japan gets it.. someone you don't even know can do the job and someone you know cannot communicate.
You like the money you make and the office you have.. you co-works are great.. But yet everything is just not as you expect it should be.

I think I know the future can be different and maybe very rewarding if I take my talents to another company.. I but none the less, I give my 2 weeks notice.

The temporary pain by staying will pass during the process of handling this in short time. I know I am doing the right thing the right way.. It's just they way it is..

I am confident my W will respond positively.. If not, I cannot control that.. she can find some other man to woo her.. I'm done with it.

Heck, I can be single and be happy. I know there is a woman who would be very happy to have a man like me and never risk losing me..

Perhaps my wife won't risk losing me.. Who knows...

maybe she will quack like Nell's X. It is possible she thinks of herself as doing enough.. I am ok with that. Some other man can be satisfied with that. Not me.

[This message edited by trynhard at 1:07 PM, August 25th (Sunday)]

Posts: 2636 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
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Default  Posted: 1:09 PM, August 25th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Yeah, tryn', you have worked on yourself a lot and you do know that it is your wife's issue and it isn't anything about you. I would still be hurt, but not as devastated as I would have been pre-A, too.

BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson

Posts: 8984 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
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Default  Posted: 2:12 PM, August 25th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I am so sorry that you find yourself here. But like Sister milkshake said the LTA forum is a very safe place to voice your opinions and sometimes just vent.
I was very different from you right after d-day.
When I found out about my FWH's 5 yr LTA I freaked out.
I lost it.
It took me 24 hours of walking around like a zombie and then my anger and indignation set in and I threw him out of the house.
That was a huge wake up call for him!
I refused to speak to him and would not answer his calls.
I had the locks changed.
I was frantic, angry, devastated, grief stricken.

We had been married 30 yrs at the time I found out ( together for 34 yrs).
I gave my life to this man.

I was lucky because I went to IC immediately and I went to a psychiatrist because I knew that I needed meds for anxiety-I was shaking like a leaf for about 3 weeks even after taking the meds!

I outed the affair to everyone! My adult children, my family, my FWH's family and then I started contacting co-workers of his and the MOW as well as his boss ( I had known many of them for over 30 yrs so I felt fairly comfortable talking to them).
I also contacted the MOW's betrayed husband and spoke with him a number of times. I even met up with him one time in person to exchange email evidence.

I needed to know everything about the affair.
I felt so betrayed by this double life going on that the only thing that would give some peace was to find out everything that I could about the OW as well as details about the LTA.

My FWH was immediately extremely remorseful and he went to IC. he also got sober and went to AA (90 meetings in 90 days).

In my case- I truly believe that IC for both of us saved our marriage.
It just happened that his IC was knowledgeable about PTSD and trained in EMDR as well as someone that knew about infidelity and alcoholism.
he helped my FWH understand that my extreme reaction to d-day was due to PTSD-it was extremely traumatic for me.

We were separated for 6 months before I agreed to let him move back home.
After 2 months of the 180 I agreed to go to MC with him. We went to one MC for 3 months and then switched to another for another 3 months.

But, I do believe that the IC was key.

Do you have anything that you need from your WH right now?
Do want details of the affair?
Do you need him to be transparent? to show you his cell phone? give you his email passwords? show his old cell phone bills, credit card bills etc.
If is the time to ask for that.

IMHO there is no way that a couple can reconcile after a LTA by sweeping things under the rug.
The WS wants you to 'get over it' as soon as possible and to forgive and forget.
But, there is a lot of work that has to be done before you get to that point.

Forgiving too soon. Forgiving a remorseless WS is like covering a festering wound with a band aid. The wound will only get worse and end up getting infected.
You need to rip that band aid off no matter how much it hurts and clean everything out.
A new beginning.
And, IMHO that starts with the WS coming clean and giving the whole truth.

You cannot reconcile if you do not know what you are reconciling from.

And if the WS does not show remorse and a willingness to change and work hard to save the marriage-then there is no chance of R.

Me- BS
Him- WH
Long term marriage
D-day- Jan. 2007
5 yr. LTA

Posts: 3139 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: NJ
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Default  Posted: 2:38 PM, August 25th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My wife’s behavior is not filling a need for me that is most important. Some woman may not get this and be greatly offended. It is defended by many women as part of a physical or mental part of who they are.

tryn, you wanting your wife to initiate sex is NOT unacceptable.

Let me explain... gather 'round, boys and girls... it's Story Time with Nell!

Once upon a time, while Daffy was neck-deep in his A and insulting Nell--telling her that her size-zero stomach, which had stretched to fit his two sons, wasn't flat enough; that her ass wasn't as round as it used to be; and that her lady parts weren't tight enough--on the rare occasions when he wasn't ignoring Nell, that is, he stated that Nell didn't initiate sex enough. Well, Nell was very insulted. Nell mentally listed all Daffy's shortcomings in the sack. Nell told herself that if Daffy was a better lover, then Nell would naturally want to initiate sex with Daffy. It was obvious to Nell as she itemized all of Daffy's faults that Nell was a victim and everything was Daffy's fault.

This made Nell feel better for a couple of weeks. Then Nell got over herself and realized that what Daffy didn't do for Nell wasn't the point. The point, boys and girls, was that Nell had the ability to make a change in herself to give Daffy what he requested of his wife, which he said would make him feel better.

Now, Nell also was told that she was not to plan any initiation; it would only count if Nell desired Daffy spontaneously. So Nell created a rather complicated schedule on her smartphone that reminded her to get herself "in the mood" by fantasizing, having a glass of wine, reading trashy romance novels, etc. so that she would be "spontaneously" desirous of Daffy. She held herself to that schedule even when Daffy would reject her more than 50% of the time. It was more than a little embarrassing and not normal or comfortable for Nell, and it was time that Nell could have used to do many other things, but Nell stuck to it because it was what Daffy said he needed from Nell, and Nell knew that she needed to do that for her husband.

The end.

Really, it's that simple. If your wife wants to given you what you ask, she can. If she doesn't do it, it's because she has made a decision that she is not going to do it. It's really not any different than ats cleaning overhead lights that he doesn't particularly care about because Mrs. ats sees that type of action as proof of love... sex just a more socially charged issue, so it's harder for a person to bring up and easier for his/her partner to dismiss. YMMV.

BS & D
Drinking wine and thinking bliss is on the other side of this.

Posts: 2370 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Baby steps on my new path
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Default  Posted: 3:47 PM, August 25th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Tryin- I get where you are coming from.
After d-day, after going through what we have gone through in order to reconcile after a LTA-we deserve a quality marriage!
I have a bunch of deal breakers when it comes to my FWH as well.
I used to tolerate certain behaviors in the past (before d-day) but no more.

D-day was an eye opener for me as well as for my FWH.

IMHO after d-day everything changes! the rules change.

Me- BS
Him- WH
Long term marriage
D-day- Jan. 2007
5 yr. LTA

Posts: 3139 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: NJ
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