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User Topic: Long Term Affairs - Part 32
SisterMilkshake
♀ Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 4:10 PM, August 25th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

njgal, sometimes I really wish I had reacted the way you did on d-day. The "scorched earth" method I call it. Really, I believe that is what my FWH thought I would do because that is usually my way. I surprised him and myself by my reaction. I was traumatized, too, but it showed up in a different way than yours did.


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 8990 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
njgal480
♀ Member
Member # 24938
Default  Posted: 6:03 PM, August 25th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Sister- Don't regret how you reacted.
We were not prepared for d-day.
Trust me I did not have a plan.
I just reacted.
And 'scorched earth' is a good way to describe it.

I stood there screaming that he should go to 'her'if that was what he wanted while I was opening drawers and closets and throwing his clothes out at him.

He was a deer in the headlights especially because this was so out of character for me!
I was never a screamer and never into drama.

Funny, how finding out about a LTA can change you.


Me- BS
Him- WH
Long term marriage
D-day- Jan. 2007
5 yr. LTA
Reconciled.


Posts: 3139 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: NJ
ImNellNow
♀ Member
Member # 28753
Default  Posted: 9:03 PM, August 25th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Here's the thing... we all suffered a huge trauma, and the way we act/ed does not necessarily reflect who we are or what our boundaries are. Fight or flight takes over. njgal fought. I took flight... escaped to my girlfriend's house on multiple occasions just so I could breathe. Walking, you take as long as you need to figure out what you need to do next. Yes, I believe I was in a fog for a good six months until I could even string two coherent thoughts together. The good people here helped me immensely.


BS & D
Drinking wine and thinking bliss is on the other side of this.

Posts: 2370 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Baby steps on my new path
hopeandchange
♂ Member
Member # 33287
Default  Posted: 5:51 AM, August 26th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Good morning tribe!

How do you respond to the "how are you doing?". I was out with WW and DD when MIL calls on the car speaker phone. WW alerts her mom that I and DD are with her. MIL asks "how are you h&c?"

I have just become tired of sucking it up and being polite. MIL knows we are D but does not know about the A. Ditto for DD. It was just a bad moment for me.

Wishing all a good start to their week. Be safe! Be happy! Be healthy! Live with ease!

h&c


BH (me, 50)
WS (her, 48)
Divorced!
3 wonderful teens
Heading for Happiness

Posts: 401 | Registered: Sep 2011
njgal480
♀ Member
Member # 24938
Default  Posted: 8:12 AM, August 26th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

h&c-
It is tough to keep up that happy act.
Your WW is lucky because if it were me... her parents, family, friends, etc. would all know about the affair and the real reason for the divorce!
I would not be covering for her in any way at all.

But...that's me.


Me- BS
Him- WH
Long term marriage
D-day- Jan. 2007
5 yr. LTA
Reconciled.


Posts: 3139 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: NJ
ReunitePangea
♂ Member
Member # 37529
Default  Posted: 8:33 AM, August 26th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

hopeandchange - that is tough sometimes, trust me I know. We have chose to keep the LTA only known to a few people and none from family. Everyone has to evaluate their own situations to figure out what is best for them. I know in our case if we told family it would only hurt our chances at R due to how some of the family members would handle themselves with that type of information. The fact that you are going to D, you are being very generous with holding back on telling that information. I don't think I would be able to do that.

Tryin - You are right to push on that issue. For me, if my WW was not initiating, it would be triggering me because that was how it was when her LTA was frequent. Fortunately it has not been an issue for me for many years now

I would encourage you to confront your wife in a very direct approach. It sounds as if you did that once but I think you need to do it again so that she realizes that this is an ongoing issue. It is easy to get settled into a pattern and perhaps that is part of the issue - she just expects the pattern is you always initiate.


BS - Me 38
WS - Wife 39
D-Day - Oct 12
Married 10 years
OM1 - 12-year LTA
OM2 - 9 month A turned into open relationship with couple for another 1 1/2 years

Posts: 406 | Registered: Nov 2012
7yrsflushed
♂ Member
Member # 32258
Default  Posted: 8:35 AM, August 26th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

How do you respond to the "how are you doing?".
Not sure about the specifics of your situation HandC but I stopped responding to everything. I stopped doing things as a family. We were in-house S and paperwork so I decided to get a mega 180 going so I would be used to doing things myself. She kept asking me if we were going to take the kids to the beach or if we were going to take the kids to a movie, or the amusment park, etc... My response was always those are family activities and we are no longer a family. You can take the kids and do what you like with them and I will do what I want with them. My stance was there is no more "US" and we needed to start doing things seperately. This was the reality that she chose with her actions so I was going to embrace it.

I stopped talking to her family, found a new church and basically began seperating my life from hers. As for my in-laws, I didn't have anything against them but they were supporting her emotionally which to me meant they wer on her side. Is that a petty way of thinking, probably, but it helped me when having to deal with them. It's her family they are supposed to support her but to me that meant they were for her which meant they aren't really for me. So I pick and choose my interactions with my inlaws. I avoided them during in-house S and am cordial if I see them in public but I choose not to deal with them. Not one has ever called to check on me which is fine because it makes my life easier. I get it though because my family is the same way with STBXW.

Do what you feel comfortable with but imo you shouldn't protect her by sugarcoating how you feel to her family.


D-day 5/24/11
BH = Me
STBXWW = Her
2 children
The first true sense of calm I felt in YEARS was when I filed for D...
Separated 6/2013, D official around 6/2014

Posts: 1585 | Registered: May 2011
atsenaotie
♂ Member
Member # 27650
Default  Posted: 9:59 AM, August 26th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

MIL asks "how are you h&c?"

I realized a while back that FWW's family really did not care when they asked that. I tell them I am fine, great, just like I do the bagger at the grocery or a stanger in an elevator. In fact, they are careful to never get into anything that might result in an honest and frank response. I have worked hard to replace much of the anger in my heart with in-difference.

Tryn,
Good luck to you on your effort. I think a FWW who loves and desires her BH is the Holy Grail of R.

FWW notes that she initiates more often, I note that asking if I want sex or grabbing my cock late at night just as I am going to bed and after an evening of drinks is not much of an initiation. I find I am still losing my desire for her, and so the sex is becoming moot. I am gettign to the point where I would rather have onions on my sandwich at lunch than skip them on the off chance there might be sex.

INN, thank you for the description of how a W who is trying to meet her H's wants could respond to a request for more sexual desire and initiation. It is too easy to feel needy or unreasonable when asking for sex as a need to be met in a relationship.

ETA:

belated happy birthday honest.

[This message edited by atsenaotie at 10:01 AM, August 26th (Monday)]


LTA BS 53
FWW 60
M 1990, dday 10-5-09
Reconciled

Posts: 3968 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: FL
DecimatedHeart
♀ Member
Member # 37657
Default  Posted: 1:03 PM, August 26th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I don't say this to be negative, just to say be careful and continue to watch your WH's actions. If the A is over then he may be trying to clean up the mess he made at home now that he no longer has options. He left cow pies all over your M and the problem with that is you can only shine a turd so much. It's still a turd. If he doesn't actually pick up the cow pies, thoroughly exam them, figure out what they are then he is just shining them instead of picking them up and throwing them over the fence.

7yrs – Thank you for that! The thing with WH is that he isn’t even taking a ‘shine the cowpie’ approach, more a ‘ignore the cowpie and hope it turns to fertilizer’ approach. And you’re right, it feels so nice just to be treated with kindness and affection again that I guess I am allowing the rugsweeping for the time being. My hope is that if I give him some time to work on his issues internally, you know, that 2-4 month timeframe they always talk about after coming out of the fog ending the A, that hopefully he will start doing the hard work on himself and things will take a real turn for the better.

I knew he could be moody, even at times depressive. I addressed these issues at times, as gently as possible, to no avail. Then I looked around at other marriages and found that ours was as good or better than most. He worked hard, was kind and complimentary, a decent father. I buckled down and built the best life I could for our family.

Catlover – You're not rambling! And I know what you mean. I did the same thing. WH is so moody at times, predictably so, to the point where I joked about dealing with “Sunday WH” or “post vacation WH”. But he was always a fantastic dad, a hard worker, a loving husband, etc etc. Okay, he didn’t want me having a life outside of him, but at least he was not like so-n-so out drinking or playing poker all night. Okay, so he was a moody SOB every Sunday, but it’s just because he’s trying to make our lives better. I was such a coddler and enabler. I was the queen of making excuses for him. His pedestal was a mile high. I didn’t see it as settling. I saw it as loving unconditionally, taking the good and the bad. If I'm being honest, I still don’t see it as settling. I don’t for one second regret marrying him. And don’t get me wrong, I still love him, adore him, admire many, many things about him. That’s why I am fighting to save us. I am one of the lucky ones, if you want to call it that, here who can say I genuinely had a good marriage, a great family. And I want it back, only I want not only the pretty-on-the-outside stuff, I want to go back and fix the foundation, which he and I both shook the hell out of over the years until it came crumbling down, make it stronger. I realize now that loving unconditionally doesn't mean putting up with crap and not expecting them to fix their issues. That’s what you’re doing, what your WH seems to be working towards. It IS your reward. Enjoy it!

You could say all devices must be accessible to me beginning on next Saturday to give him time to clean them up.

H&C – I took a page from WH’s book and tried approaching this subject in a rather passive-aggressive way. I told WH I wanted to copy the vacation pics from my SD card to the computer and that I wanted to copy his too. Not today, but this weekend. He immediately got stormy eyed and started click-click-clicking away at his phone, deleting the ‘blurry pics’. I’m no dummy. Then he got a brilliant idea of just S-Beaming the folder with vaca pics from his phone to mine ‘because he’s been wanting to figure out how to get that to work.’ When I mentioned I wanted all the pics, not just the vacation ones, he started emailing me pics, and when I said he can’t possibly email me all the pics on the card, he said “fine.” So we’ll see what happens if/when I actually ask for the card. For the time being, I’m satisfied just knowing whatever he had on there he didn’t want me to see is gone now.

I’m so sorry that the in-house separation has been difficult. The rewriting of history is always a tough pill to swallow, and I suspect that your WS is doing so in a flimsy attempt to stave off her burgeoning realization that she made the wrong choice. She doesn’t want to face the destruction she caused. Perhaps she will wake up before it is too late. Perhaps not. Either way, you can be at peace that you have done everything you can do, that you have given her unconditional love and the opportunity for forgiveness and R and what she chooses to do with that is her onus, not yours. You are a good person with a lot to offer. She is a fool if she allows her pride/shame to keep her from just admitting her mistakes and setting things right before it’s too late. (((h&c))) for the awkward MIL conversation. Sometimes being the bigger person sucks.

Fnf – that was a brilliant, eye-opening post. Thank you for that!

Walking – this is all still so new to you. Your wounds are fresh, raw. I am 9 months out and still feel that way at times. Yes, I definitely think the fog can apply to BSs as much as WSs, just differently. That’s why they always say to give yourself time to work things out in your mind, decide rationally – not just emotionally – what you want to do. For some of us, it means attempting R, for others it is ultimately a deal breaker. No one answer is the right one for everyone. Talk things out here, SI and specifically this board has been my safe haven. No one will judge you here. You want to try and R, they will support you and try and help you navigate that, see red flags that you might miss or turn a blind eye to, cheer with you if things go well and hug you if things go wrong. You want to D, they will support you in all the issues that arise from that decision too.

Tryn – I agree wholeheartedly with Nell! And as for the initiating sex thing, I think it’s entirely reasonable. As a BS attempting to R, we need reassurance, both emotional and physical. I can admit I am a very sexual person. I need that intimacy in my life, and I need to not always be the one to initiate. I need to feel wanted, desired by my spouse. Especially since he withheld sex and rejected me repeatedly during the LTA. WH knows this, which is why I think when he saw I was really, truly finished he initiated sex as a way to show me he was recommitting to me, and has repeatedly done so since. It is healing, the same way that hearing “I love you” first is much more healing than “I love you too” is. I hope that when you address it with your wife, she reacts favorably. It may be that she doesn’t even realize she’s not initiating. Or it may be that she feels awkward doing so after her betrayal, that she doesn’t feel she has the right to ask for/initiate.

Nell – I love Storytime with Nell! LOL I, too, have thought more than once that if I could go back in time, I would have reacted the way you did. The way WH expected me too. I think the scorched earth approach then would have me a lot closer to R than I am now. Goes back to that coddling/enabling thing. He is just now starting to realize that his actions might have life-altering consequences. The change in him has been remarkable, and I am just praying that it is not superficial.

Honest – it was your birthday too? HAPPY HAPPY BIRTHDAY!

Has anyone heard from Jack?

[This message edited by DecimatedHeart at 1:18 PM, August 26th (Monday)]


Me, BS 41
Him WH 42 - LTA, EA/PA
Together 24 years
DD13 - the love of my life
DDay#1 11/10/2012
DDay#4 4/5/2013 (NC broken AGAIN)
A supposedly over 6/14/2013

All my posts are edited - I hate typos. :)


Posts: 129 | Registered: Nov 2012
MC_Jack
♂ Member
Member # 35016
Default  Posted: 1:46 PM, August 26th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

H&C,

by choosing to tell no one you have chosen to wear a mask, so until you reveal the truth, the mask is what you have.

I knew that you did not tell you kids, but why withhold from MIL?

[This message edited by MC_Jack at 1:47 PM, August 26th (Monday)]


I am not a marriage counselor. I chose "MC Jack" in the spirit of a handle like "MC Hammer" or Young MC"...there is a lot of 'rapping' here, no? At the time I did not know what MC stood for on this site. Duh.

Posts: 792 | Registered: Mar 2012 | From: West Coast of Hopa-hopa-land
trynhard
♂ Member
Member # 22698
Default  Posted: 10:04 AM, August 27th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks guys..

Here is my theme behind my new values and behaviors. I will be good to write it out for my own benifit and plan.. LOL

I know that anyone who truly cares for you, they will have some very deep emotional connection to you. When they have this, they not dare risk losing that person they care so much about.

If my W is not there.. There are one of two reasons. I am not creating the environment where I am attractive enough.. or my wife has some sort of obstacle getting to this place.

The behaviors that I do or my W’s obstacles within her can be many reasons. I can only know my own, because I cannot get inside another’s head. Heck, some women have no clue to why they even have this obstacle.

Thanks for sharing your story Nell. My thoughts on Nell’s X is one he thinks and places value on a woman who is like a porn star in her 20’s. He is needy that way. His mind is still that of an adolescent with desires of affirmations like those of a child. I am not that kind of man. I can go without sex. I CAN even be OK with only me creating the romantic environment and expect not the same in return. I did that for all these years so sure I can do it into the future.

What Nell’s X told her about her body and then the nerve to behaved with a No, a rejection when she made an attempt.. she was greatly offended. I would too. What you say and how you say it RP, it is that important. Nell’s X said it “directly” as you suggested. Yet his own values were flawed. Nell’s X was chasing something he will never find until he becomes masculine. How could Nell possibly respect her X? And yes, she did the right thing and made him no longer part of her life. I respect Nell greatly for her decision. Of course, I have known for a long time she is quality.

I can with intent notice my W going the evening before to get a manicure. I can with intention notice my W’s new cloths when she leaves for work. I can then tell her she is very hot and that turns me on. She might get lucky tonight because of that. I can leave her a text saying when she gets home tonight, follow the red… and leave rose pedals on the entry leading up to our bedroom. I can have laid out a nice teddy.. and a bite size sandwiches, glass of wine set up.. I just created a very special moment. If she would have said, honey, I am not in the mood.. Fine, I would have just watched TV.

She can accept my invitation to connect or not. Nothing more I can do. If she has her own obstacles, then I must then be strong enough, have the courage to.. just put it in a way RP.. hey, you create your own happiness. You can do it with me, or without me. It is your decision and not mine and I am ok with it..

Inside, I know women dig this kind of stuff and I can bless anyone woman who wants to give me the same respect. This is no difference then H&C’s or 7years making the choice to know when they are not repected.. it is ok. Not all can respect another.. these men have courage, so will I.

There is a difference in my situation.. my W is loving in so many other areas. She is also behaving like she wants the marriage. I view this as some sort of internal obstacle she has. Let’s look at the real pain in my W’s life. Sex leading to an abortion.. Sex outside her vow. SEX = PAIN. And she might be making a third mistake.. Making the choice not to romance me, thinking sex is just what a man needs and not as a connection with me.. I won’t be in pain... Pain of divorce is not going to be a strong pain for me. I suppose today I am at a good detachment phase and overcome many fears.

But I can also make attempts to communicate in such a way she can change on her own because she wants to and do it in a safe way. I have tried a few things without success and it is at the point where I will make a final choice on my own. She can choose the path she is most secure with having nothing to do with my choice. We just both go on in life in our own path and end. I’m at great peace with that right now. I will celebrate, not be saddened with a new change in my life. I won’t even be angered at her choice. I could get angry should she try to steal what is mine.

ATS.. grabbing the penis is not creating a moment. All that does is make you feel like you described. And my W? she is no different than yours. My W’s recent initiation was almost exactly the same.

I created that moment for my W; that kind of stuff is what we did before we get M and during “courting”. You keep doing stuff like throughout your M, I do believe it will “affair proof” your marriage and you will create many great moments. Not that alone, but along with many other behaviors too. I have done things like that often since joining a masculinity group. I can look back at my M and know for sure, I stopped doing many bad behaviors today. That is why you examine yourself. It is for you. Plus, it is far easier to be on your best behaviors when you first meet someone.. It is being that person forever that is key.

I do this for me…

You can get to a point, like me, where you do understand respect. In my case, this is about respect. Respecting someone you married. When you respect the person you M, you overcome your own obstacles and you do things. You create your own feelings.. based on what you do or not do. Nell got that and tried with her story. I just was not ready as quick as Nell. I was not who I wanted to be. Part of that deep inner connect is to respect your spouse. You’ve heard the ole saying you earn respect.

Sure, I have earned respect by working hard to provide the love of gifts my W so needs. I have earned respect by all the services I to for our family. Those are also powerful and I did this for our whole marriage. This was taught to me by my Parents. Where they failed me were teaching me romance and the right way to communicate to a spouse you have a relationship. Of what would I expect, they are divorced and not even sure they know today. My new way of communicating is finally coming naturally to me after months and months. I have used it on both my DD and DS.. it works.

I believe to the best of my ability, I have now earned respect in the romance department. I can take great pride this too. Just because I have earned it, does not mean I get it.

My W is not going to feel good when I start the real pressure. There is a chance she is going to go into a growing apart mode, and not come together as a M should be.. It is not much difference than NJgal taking her stand and leaving. Her H made the choice to stop his addiction and made great attempts to come together, not grow apart. Some people have a way about them.. to avoid it.. to grow away as a natural defense, some don’t.

DecimatedHeart.. “It may be that she doesn’t even realize she’s not initiating.” Not the case in my M. Going back for a couple years now our greatest upset moments have been on this subject. 19 months ago, she said, “YOU DON’T GET IT”… I can admit today, no back then, I didn’t get it. Well OK then.. Despite my W saying WE will go seek help, Nell’s famous quote, “crickets”.. But I did not stand by and do nothing. I joined a masculinity group of Christian men. Men who have studied, practiced, know what history has already discovered. IT was very eye opening. I shared much of what they teach. Much of the same stuff is said on this board. I do “get it” right now.

Peace out!


Posts: 2636 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
njgal480
♀ Member
Member # 24938
Default  Posted: 12:00 PM, August 27th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

tryin-
I think that the BS that reconcile after a LTA deserve an excellent marriage.
We have earned it!
I for one will not accept any of the crappy behavior I tolerated before d day.
My FWH has changed but I have changed as well.
I reconciled but it's not because I was afraid of being divorced.
Like you I am at the point in my life that I feel good about myself and can detach and be on my own.
I don't stay in the marriage out of weakness-I stay out of strength.
My FWH has stepped up to the plate and is being an excellent husband, father, man.
If he were to start drinking again or reverted to any of his past selfish behaviors then it would most likely be a deal breaker for me.


Me- BS
Him- WH
Long term marriage
D-day- Jan. 2007
5 yr. LTA
Reconciled.


Posts: 3139 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: NJ
ReunitePangea
♂ Member
Member # 37529
Default  Posted: 12:31 PM, August 27th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

What you say and how you say it RP, it is that important

I 100% agree. During this entire time, I have not yelled or raised my voice once when talking about my WW's LTA with her. I have kept my cool every time and made my points as clear as possible. That works for me, everyone is different but how you say it is very important.

I view this as some sort of internal obstacle she has. Let’s look at the real pain in my W’s life. Sex leading to an abortion.. Sex outside her vow. SEX = PAIN. And she might be making a third mistake.. Making the choice not to romance me, thinking sex is just what a man needs and not as a connection with me

Tryin, I will start this by saying there may be parts of your story that I do not know and that is why you believe the above is true. However I say the above is a bunch of BS and I don't mean betrayed spouse. I highly doubt your wife feels that sex is just what a man needs. If she truely believed that, why then did she have a physical affair, why not just an emotional one. If she was going to go out and do something selfish, then just be selfish and just get the emotional needs met. I simply don't follow the logic above. I suspect your wife needs sex too. She may have an internal obstacle but it is not that. Again, maybe there is part of your story I do not know but careful of thinking that the above is the reason.

Tryin, I admire you for all the work you have put in. It is obvious that you have put in so much work to get where you are at. Careful though of making things more complicated than they really are. You have a need and your wife is not filling that need. Your wife can not read minds, it is your job to tell her what your needs are. Sometimes it is just that simple - we all wish our WS would have just expressed their needs / issues rather than seeking out their needs through an A.


BS - Me 38
WS - Wife 39
D-Day - Oct 12
Married 10 years
OM1 - 12-year LTA
OM2 - 9 month A turned into open relationship with couple for another 1 1/2 years

Posts: 406 | Registered: Nov 2012
catlover50
♀ Member
Member # 37154
Default  Posted: 12:58 PM, August 27th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I certainly have asked for my H to do things for me to show that he loves me. Things that don't come naturally to him. In my case it is occasionally getting me flowers or a card, making a romantic gesture. His not doing it sends the message that he doesn't care enough to do so. That may not be fair, since we are all different, but that's how I take it.

Last night he brought home flowers, a card and some chocolate. It really pleased me. I asked what I could do for him to show him how much I loved him and he said that I do so many things already and it is clear to him that I love him.

Now I would like to talk specifically about sex. Tryn asking for initiation sparked this for me. It will get long; sorry! And yes I know there is a CSA thread, but it gets very little play.

I had one lover prior to my H. He was my college boyfriend, we were both virgins, and although I was very much into sex, he was pretty immature and selfish. Not fulfilling.

I had other boyfriends but very much am about sex being in a love relationship and was never tempted to go past making out. I met my H in professional school and dated for 5 weeks before going there. It was great for me. However, looking back I can see even now the seeds of some issues. I have always been one who could have sex just about every day, except for when having babies around, nursing, exhaustion. My H was not. Although we went through that new love type of HB, he would not always be up for sex every night. At times this was a real issue for me, I felt rejected, etc. I also found that he did not respond when I came on to him. I would try to "seduce" him, but it would have to be subtle and seem like his idea. Also, he was never into blow jobs. Did not have much experience with this personally, but read books, watched some porn, think I'm doing it right, but frankly was fine that he was not into it.

We settled into a pattern in our marriage. He would initiate two to three times a week, usually after I was falling asleep, and often in a fairly impersonal way (going for the "goods", no kisses or real foreplay, fairly short). I told him many times over the years that I was NOT in the mood at this time, and needed kissing, foreplay, nongenital touching, etc. He would either ignore this or even would say "just let me do it my way". I rarely if ever turned him down but sometimes when I was really exhausted I would actually get angry. Mostly I was glad that he "wanted" me and we still were having regular sex. On our trips away, romantic weekends, etc, he would pull out the stops mostly and we would have fulfilling sex. Again, I learned not to initiate. I take excellent care of myself, dress nicely, have lovely lingerie and he would comment on how I looked, but if he wasn't "in the mood" it wasn't happening.

In his mid-forties he started having minor performance issues and this seemed to lead him to initiate less often (once or twice a week). I brought it up, he got some drugs, and they helped a bit. I wonder now if these issues were part of the drive to start the LTA; the "difference" did help for awhile, although he did have some issues with her and did not think she was "pill worthy"; he would just go home. As things tapered off some for us I discovered vibrators and took good care of myself (again, never once considered cheating!)

During the LTA things did slow down for us; we once went an entire month (although this was not the norm, more likely every week or two). At this point in the LTA it was not that he was having so much sex with her; it was only every month or so with her and he swears (and I believe him) that it was unfulfilling. I think it was more about his feeling crappy about himself in general, and even less connected to me than usual, although he was still kind and behaved the same (dysfunctional) way as always. Vacations still rocked and we really connected sexually then.

After Dday #1 things went back to the 2-3 times a week, but still the way he wanted. He was trying harder with me but still obviously had major issues.

After Dday #2 we found HB, which was actually great. The funny thing was that he suddenly was doing all the things that I had asked for all these years. So he heard me. (which is annoying)

Now we have less "hysteria" but still "heightened" sexual bonding. The biggest differences are that he is more than happy to have me initiate and also is all about my pleasure. All about the foreplay, the multiple orgasms, etc. Not all that concerned with his own orgasm.
Will look in my eyes, etc. SOOOO much better.

Now that I have learned about his CSA past and done a lot of reading I think I can make some sense out of this. He abuser was a male, so the blow jobs thing makes sense. Also the always having to be in control thing. But I also wonder about the intimacy piece. For him, he started having sex at 12, he thinks to prove to himself that he wasn't gay. He had lots of "conquests" as a young man, which, although not unusual, I suspect was to prove to himself that he was worthy and desirable. But I do think he has always feared intimacy. He would start a relationship and then sabotage it when it got "too close" (he did this when we were dating too). I suspect he has a relatively normal sex drive, but most of the sex we had was just when he felt the urge, but was not comfortable getting too intimate. (this is one reason I believe his description of his LTA). Our counselors feel that his LTA was about compulsion and re-enacting past abuse, not even much about sex, at least after the initial ego boost.

So now I worry that he has replaced his previous issues with the desire to make himself feel good by making me happy. I certainly feel close and "intimate" with him, but clearly I am no judge! I have read books on this subject too but I just have no way to know how he is feeling. I have asked him not to be so concerned about my pleasure and just "be" in the moment. He is happy to hug and kiss me as long as I want, we take long bubble baths together and give each other massages, sleep with skin touching. It's all good. But part of me worries that on his part it is coming from a place of fear (need to keep her happy)and the desire to feel better about himself and less about intimacy.

So what is my question? Well, first, can anyone relate? What does true sexual intimacy look like? I don't trust myself since I was unaware the first 28 years of our relationship. And now I worry that this is one more pressure that my H feels; no matter how exhausted he is, etc, he feels he needs to please me sexually, and if he doesn't he is letting me down.

Thanks for listening.

[This message edited by catlover50 at 12:58 PM, August 27th (Tuesday)]



Dday -9/24/2012
Reconciling

Posts: 1654 | Registered: Oct 2012 | From: northeast
atsenaotie
♂ Member
Member # 27650
Default  Posted: 3:52 PM, August 27th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I highly doubt your wife feels that sex is just what a man needs. If she truely believed that, why then did she have a physical affair, why not just an emotional one.

While this was not directed to my FWW, I would like to respond. For the most part, FWW's As were for her emotional. She was in them for the affirmation, the phone chatting to and from work, and for the attention. In general, the sex part was what she had to do, or at least felt she had to do, to keep the attention and control over OM. Sure there were times she was aroused and wanted sex, but no more often with them than with me. She and I have been through this a few times post dday, and I really believe that the sex was provided as an obligation because that is what the OM wanted. Sure there were times more exciting than others when she was aroused and into it, but for the most part she wanted them to be her friend and tell her how special she was. If she wanted more attention or OM was drifting away, she would arrange to be available to meet for sex or send stexting/photo. In a similar fashion, if OM wanted sex and she was not responding, they would ramp up the positive affirmations and calls.

No relationship is all black or all white, but I believe that FWW's A relationships had sex primarily as a way to control OM and to maintain the emotional aspect. I also believe that this is why she did sexual things with OM that she is uncomfortable with, and she does not or rarely does with me. Raising the bar sexually with OM was a way to hook him deeper, with me we are M'd, what is the motivation?

catlover50,

Well, first, can anyone relate? What does true sexual intimacy look like?

yes.

I believe that true sexual intimacy is simply an aspect of true emotional intimacy. It is feeling comfortable and accepting enough with yourself and your partner that there is no shame in who you are and how you interact with your partner. There is honesty that does not fear conflict to express a true feeling. It is very much accepting who you are, and then openly sharing (physically, intellectually, and emotionally) who you are with your partner.

…to prove to himself that he was worthy and desirable…

If this is true, then this may be why he struggles with intimacy. He does not feel worthy in and of himself. He feels that he is not worthy for who and what he is. He sees his value to you only in terms of what he can do for you. To him, the value is in the act, not in the person. If he fails in the act, then he is unworthy of your love and attention.

What you describe above is very much my FWW. While she is getting better with this after years of IC/MC, she still has an unstable self-image that is driven more by her circumstances than any core belief and love for herself. I too struggled with this. I was a KISA for my W. I found my value and worthiness to be loved in what I could do for other people. It has taken effort and practice to become comfortable with my self, in my skin.

So let us look at a specific:

…he feels he needs to please me sexually, and if he doesn't he is letting me down.

Sex is a complicated subject even for the best relationships I think. Add CSAb and emotional perception issues and the mix just gets more complicated. He questions his masculinity, and he views sexually pleasuring a woman as a measure of masculinity. If you do not orgasm, he sees it as HIS failure and evidence he is not the man he wants to be. He does not think that you may be feeling tired, overly full from supper, or stressed about an issue. He does not think you are responsible for your sexual satisfaction, so if he fails he feels embarrassed to be less a man in front of you. He is afraid to talk about this or to talk about what you want and need sexually, because to him that would expose him as being less of a man.

If he failed with an AP it is not such a big deal, because he does not have all the other entangling connections with the AP as he does with you. He does not have the commitment to her. His relationship with OW was built on fiction and fantasy, so he did not have to worry about OW finding out his inner fears. She only saw what he wanted to project. FWW was this way with her OM. She was embarrassed about many things around me, ashamed of herself, her family. With OM she felt in power and in control. While she felt she did not deserve me, she felt that her OM were lucky to have her, fortunate that she would pay attention to them.

I don't trust myself since I was unaware the first 28 years of our relationship.

I get this, me too, only it was the first 20 years. So now I do not (try not to) worry about how FWW is feeling. I cannot control this anyways. She often thinks that I can, but really I cannot. So what I try to do instead is be authentic. I try to be the most honest atsenaotie that I can be in my relationship. This is a change for me, and not just in my M. I am doing the same with my parents, my work, and my kids. I am who I am. If I am hurting or neglecting someone’s need I expect them to bring this to my attention. One of my core beliefs is that I want to do what I can to help and support those I love, so I am happy to learn how to be a better partner.

What I no longer do is try to figure out what people want and do that thing or be that person. I am not sure my approach is the best, but it works for me. So for you I recommend concentrating on being the person that you want to be, an authentic catlover50. It is up to your FWH to decide if he likes and wants to be M’d to who you are. If there are things you do or do not do he can raise these with you, as you can with him. It is then up to each of you how much effort you will put into meeting your partner’s need, and how much unmet need you will accept from your partner.


LTA BS 53
FWW 60
M 1990, dday 10-5-09
Reconciled

Posts: 3968 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: FL
catlover50
♀ Member
Member # 37154
Default  Posted: 5:53 PM, August 27th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Wow, ats--thanks for the thoughtful reply. You brought up some good points that I need to think about.

I do tend to worry about what he is thinking and feeling. I don't think he ever wants to leave, I do know he loves me, I truly don't think he will cheat again anytime soon, but it has shocked me how little I knew what was going on inside him. And that is out of my control. Gulp!

Although I have always tried to be my authentic self, I have also tried really hard to be an excellent wife and mother. It is hard to accept that as hard as I try, I can not make everything okay.

And I think you are so on target with the emotional/sexual intimacy. My H can not stand to show weakness or vulnerability. I encourage him to, but he has had so many years of hiding.

Thanks again.



Dday -9/24/2012
Reconciling

Posts: 1654 | Registered: Oct 2012 | From: northeast
hopeandchange
♂ Member
Member # 33287
Default  Posted: 7:27 PM, August 27th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

MC_JACK regarding maskks: I have told my father, sister and SIL (brother's widow). I have not told MIL / FIL because I like them and see no reason to cause them the pain they would feel knowing their daughter had an A.

We all wear masks at time and I do it every day that I go to work or when I am with my kids as I try, not always successfully, to hide my sorrow.

Be safe! Be happy! Be healthy! Live with ease!

h&c


BH (me, 50)
WS (her, 48)
Divorced!
3 wonderful teens
Heading for Happiness

Posts: 401 | Registered: Sep 2011
njgal480
♀ Member
Member # 24938
Default  Posted: 7:42 PM, August 27th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

catlover-
I agree with ats. Maybe it's time to stop analyzing and worrying so much how he feels and what his motivation is and just enjoy the changed man.

My FWH admits to being very selfish in the past. I know that is addressed in AA meetings and most likely was something he discussed in IC.
As I've said before my FWH is changed in many ways and the most obvious is his switch from being selfish to now being selfless.

And guess what? my FWH is finding out that that he is happier being a giver as opposed to being a taker.

So maybe your FWH is finding the same thing?
Is he less selfish in other areas too? not just the bedroom?


Me- BS
Him- WH
Long term marriage
D-day- Jan. 2007
5 yr. LTA
Reconciled.


Posts: 3139 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: NJ
MC_Jack
♂ Member
Member # 35016
Default  Posted: 8:06 PM, August 27th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hey H&C,

yes we do wear masks...hiding sadness, shame, etc.

I'm mad for you that WW does not appreciate your generosity of spirit.

do u ever wonder if you had told them that maybe they would have given WW an attitude adjustment...? Do they know that you do not want the D?


I am not a marriage counselor. I chose "MC Jack" in the spirit of a handle like "MC Hammer" or Young MC"...there is a lot of 'rapping' here, no? At the time I did not know what MC stood for on this site. Duh.

Posts: 792 | Registered: Mar 2012 | From: West Coast of Hopa-hopa-land
catlover50
♀ Member
Member # 37154
Default  Posted: 8:24 PM, August 27th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Njgal--

Yes, he is helping out around the house, getting up to feed the dogs some mornings without being asked, helping with the shopping, etc. Very nice changes. And he is happier.

Yet he still resists talking about his feelings, so I do wonder. Perhaps I should just give it a rest!

He gave me another card today--sweet and sexy.

He is really trying so much harder than I have ever seen him.

Sigh.



Dday -9/24/2012
Reconciling

Posts: 1654 | Registered: Oct 2012 | From: northeast
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