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User Topic: Long Term Affairs - Part 32
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Default  Posted: 9:16 PM, September 17th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Danni.. Welcome to talk therapy.. lol..

I went to Retrouvaille too! I must say it did save my M. Let’s see. You are 3 years out and still need something???

I will say this… It sometimes takes longer than 3 years. Just 19 months ago.. My W and I got in the most heated fight where I was ready to call it quits. It was about sex.. She said I didn’t “get it”.. Well, no I didn’t. We agreed to go to theropy.. I told her I was done doing all the work.. she goes and then she can invite me.. “crickets”.. So I went on my own without tell her. I join a men’s group to teach men to be masculine.

It is ok to give yourself some more time. And guess what.. I can D my W at any time right now. Oh do I have it in me. When you do, you don’t have fear. My point? Care less. I think you are almost there. When I say care less.. I don’t mean you stop loving him. I mean this, “You want to go… Then don’t let the door hit you on the way out. Bye Bye.” When you eliminate this fear, you will not be afraid to tell him a few hard things. See, you are letting your pent up anger build to explosion! That will result in the kind of fight I had several months ago. This is a belief YOU must develop. I don’t need may H nor any MAN for my own happiness. I know others have said this before.. we learn through repetition. This is why you must take what you know is healthy, once you learn it.. and you share with the newbies.. over and over.. It will become a belief. I don’t need my W to be happy.

I want to give you an example of something my W said the other day while her best friend was over for dinner. I play golf. I have been playing maybe 6-7 time a month. Most on Saturdays. So..
Me, “Honey, Remember, I am play the next three weeks in the league.”
W, “Of course you are, that is all you do.”
Me, “damn straight, because it takes me to a good place that is good for us both and our M. And guess what honey? That is not going to change. ”
W… She say nothing.

Let me tell you something about me. If my W told me GOLF or HER.. I would pick golf. And she would go crying to mommy that I left her for Golf when that has nothing to do with the real reason.. It is a man needs MAN TIME.

See, years ago, I gave up something that I LOVED.. FOR MY W.. she felt like it was her loss of her love of quality time. It was a huge mistake by me. Men need to do men things. I gave her time.. yet it was never enough. Nothing was enough for my W. And in a way today, it is the same. I put her on that pedestal.. And I am chipping away at it.. I give my W the love of quality time.. We sit and chat every night most times over a glass of wine. When I travel.. We talk on the phone sometimes an hour. I am doing my best to fill that love… But NO WAY I deny myself something that is good for my mental health. It is no different than ats building his bike… going on the boat.. These are good for us. And I also give my W her own time with her friends. You need to get to this same place.. I don’t fear being single.

I will say it..

Someone tell me it is all worth one more try.

Yes, it can be... You can always have.. Hey I am young with plenty of time in my life.. If he is not loving me.. He's gone.

I love my life together with my kids. You guys would not believe all the good I have… Is it perfect? NOPE.. Are there things I still need? Yep.. I am leading my W to a far better place.

Let’s address your first post you made here… “I need to know more”

No answer to my questions, yes three years later.
No time line.
No discussion regarding the affairs.
No communication.

I will tell you this.. I did not get a time line nor many details.

Ideally, I will say if a person who committed something so evil and got caught would have the courage to expose themselves completely NAKED.. about all they did.. it a good thing. A betrayed person can process the grief far quicker. It does not always happen. A cheat must also be very careful what they tell the BS and how they say it. Not too many people have this skill.

Why don’t BS just open up? This is another belief YOU must now develop.
Please answer this question for me… What is the most evil thing YOU have ever done to hurt another person? Most important words in the question.. to hurt another person?

Abortion? Cheated on a previous boyfriend yourself? Did you steal a large sum of money from someone where it affected that person’s life? Did you kill someone to hurt those other family members? Please, be open and not afraid if it is truly evil.. If you did something evil and cannot tell us.. You already know the answer. So tell us…

Let me also ask this.. What do you want to know. Exactly what is it?
Did you know when the A started? Ended? Where? How often? How did he lie so well? Or do you want to know things like.. Did you love her? Did you have feelings for her? What sexual positions?

Open up to us and I will give you some ideas on how to say it to your man. I have had the opportunity to debate, discuss, and know what many men like your H was thinking and the reasons. My job places me in very difficult positions all the time... I can help you communicate to a man. I also know ats and MC can too.

We can plan for what you are most comfortable with.. You can practice then say it! I do that all the time with my W... It get so much easier as time goes on.. it is becoming the new me. And since you have Retrou.. You can also modify that to not be on paper, but with words.

[This message edited by trynhard at 9:32 PM, September 17th (Tuesday)]

Posts: 2636 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
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Default  Posted: 8:42 AM, September 18th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Tryn: Thank you for your posts. I feel that someone gives concrete examples like you did, it helps the reader to understand better what you are trying to say.

Just my response. It seems that you and your W are working toward a better M, but you still feel a lot of residual anger about the A, which is absolutely normal. Just an observation, though. You seem to be really good trying to understand what your wife is saying or feeling. With the incident at the ball park, you are right, it would have been better if she told you later how she felt: jealousy? Also, you seem to feel that you are doing things for her, but have a lot of resentment about it. She probably feels that too.

The golf? You seem to be right that she feels that it takes away quality time with you. This is a feeling and not fact. Golf is not the point. It's the time you need for yourself and for your W she feels that you are withdrawing, not spending quality time with her, makes her feel insecure. I suggest you sit down and discuss with her what exactly she is feeling about it. No argument whether you are going to continue, but why she is getting upset about it.

There are compromises about this, which could include that she plays golf WITH you once a month or at least walks the course with you. As you do this you could talk about WHY you like it so much.

Thank you, Tryn, for your post to me. I am getting stronger. I am trying to face my fears. I am no longer sitting there saying to myself, "I know I should do x, y, z but......" and then put my head in the sand again.
I am finally facing my fears, and it is very scary....facing my foo demons, facing the inner me...
That is the hardest part, I guess.

Posts: 1903 | Registered: Jan 2010
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Default  Posted: 8:48 AM, September 18th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Welcome to the newbies, this is a great part of SI, a lot like group therapy
Good to see you again Teach!

Ats: I LOVE your posts! I really think you should copy and paste your posts and think about publishing them.
Sometimes I try to apply them to me, but since NPD is living a real full life with OW, I sometimes feel that I'm the AP KWIM? <sigh>

DH: Love your post too. You are sounding a lot stronger. Keep going and doing what you are doing. When you are feeling more sure of yourself, I believe it might be a good time to go into stealth mode and find out for sure if your WH is in NC with the OW. Then it's the real confrontation time and real decision time.

[This message edited by honesttoafault at 8:49 AM, September 18th (Wednesday)]

Posts: 1903 | Registered: Jan 2010
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Default  Posted: 9:08 AM, September 18th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hey KG. I didn't tell people initially but later on when asked I went with, we are separated because I didn't get along with her boyfriends. The one thing I found when I did start telling people is that there are so many divorced people out there that many people DO get it. Of course there are always those that don't know what to say but for the most part people were supportive or at a minimum knew to leave it alone once they found out.

Hey Teach8, I saw that thread as well. For me it's impossible for anyone involved in deceitful behavior especially an A to be good at anything. They may be adequate or competent but not good or great. WS's that think they are good parents are what I consider the Bizarro's of the parenting world. They think they are Superman but in reality they are a twisted version of him. They have the powers and the look sort fo down but it never quite is right for some reason. Bizzaro just knows he IS Superman and in his mind everything he does is right but his view of reality is skewed just like a WS active in a A. Bizarro WS can go through the motions but don't realize they are missing things when they give that energy to the AP that should be reserved for their family. They are expending emotional/physical energy and time on the AP that should be spent on their family. If you are splitting your focus between 2 different lives then by default neither life gets 100% of you.

This is how I felt about my STBXW. Is she a competent parent, yes. However she never gave her best to the family becasue she spent so much time and resources on OM. I never had 100% of her and neither did her children. Will she see it that way, probably not but she WAS essentially stealing resources, emotion, and feelings away from me and our children when she invested her time into OM.

PositiveAttitude, good luck with the job! Your energy and drive WILL come back. This stuff sucks the life out of us but it comes back eventually. All you have to do until then is be strong enough to survive.

Danni,you are right rugsweeping doesn't work. Even if a WS is doing most everything right the fact that they have this part of them that they can't or won't face WILL build resentment in a BS over time. It's either the slow burn kind or the flashfire when the next Dday shows up. For me it was the slow burn and eventually I gave an ultimatum and eventually filed when my terms weren't met. Crazy thing is in my STBXW's mind she left me. Funny how I had to file and I had to be the one to pressure her to move out so S could be official and our 1 year waiting period for D could start. Remaining in the status quo won't work in the aftermath of an LTA. Rugsweeping is an attempt to return or remain in the status quo without addressing the true issues. By answering your questions your WH knows the status quo will be upset and things WILL be different. The thing is different doesn't always mean bad but he and more importantly you won't know if he never answers your questions. You are already on your path to your happy ending. Whether your WH gets on the path with you or not depends on him working through his issues and answering your questions. My happy ending didn't look the way I wanted it too but it's still my happy ending.

[This message edited by 7yrsflushed at 9:11 AM, September 18th (Wednesday)]

D-day 5/24/11
BH = Me
2 children
The first true sense of calm I felt in YEARS was when I filed for D...
Separated 6/2013, D official around 6/2014

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Default  Posted: 9:36 AM, September 18th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

WH comes home today from a ten day business trip. It's also our 9th anniversary. I am struggling so badly with that today. :-(

He doesn't get it. He told me just last night that today shouldn't be a source of sadness for me because in June it didn't even look like we'd be here today? OMG, THAT is supposed to be comforting???

Posts: 153 | Registered: Sep 2013 | From:
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Default  Posted: 10:19 AM, September 18th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage


He really does not get to make statements with any value about how people should feel or perceive things; he forfeited his value in that sort of thing and has yet to earn it back.

…shouldn't be a source of sadness for me because in June it didn't even look like we'd be here today.

If you had been in an auto wreck 3 months ago you may have died, but that does not mean you are happy to have a great oozing wound that continues to ache and invite infection while he is saying “’tis but a flesh wound” and encouraging you to put a Band-Aid on it and move along.

Anniversaries are one of those places where FWW approach differently. I am indifferent to our anniversaries, while she is, now, very focused on them. Ironically, this is the opposite of pre-dday. This last year I was able to find a card that had a nice message, and did not make me wretch. I know this is an area that will get better, but I often feel our being together so long, at least up to just after dday, is more pathetic than celebratory.

I'm wondering what the thoughts are for those who've experienced a LTA.

Teach8, The LTA is a smaller part as so far as I know FWW had her As when her girls were adults and our boys were older (high school). Her DDs did know about a couple of the OM, younger DD tried to give me a “heads up” and got blasted by her Mother for that. Our younger DS witnessed/heard some of the fighting, my moving out of the house. The real impact all through their lives were the FOO and personality issues that FWW has (had). She taught them her dysfunctions to an extent. FWW now sees this, and notes how she advises and treats them differently since owning and working on her crap.

Tryn, nice looking pooch.

Thanks to those with the positive comments on my posts. Like all of us, I really have learned more about all of this than I ever wanted to know. I really do believe that with the LTA there is the WS personality/addiction/attachment issue that remains to be resolved after the A-Crap if the M is to R. FWW had a bout of this the last week. She was “text-fighting” with her sister and upset. This resulted in 3 days, including an afternoon I was off, with little interaction between us as FWW was withdrawn. She did eventually tell me about it.

She also told me she had looked up her OM from her A at the end of her first M to see if he was still alive. She did tell me about it after the fact. I am pretty confident there are no linger affectionate feelings, but still disappointed that she is giving him space still.

FWW 60
M 1990, dday 10-5-09

Posts: 3967 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: FL
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Default  Posted: 10:58 AM, September 18th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

OK.. Good observation Honest… Angry? I know how I feel honest. Perhaps my writing style?

I know what she thinks already.. But do I? Am I no different than Honest trying to tell me she thinks I feel? am I certain?? I spend too much time on my hobby which might make her feel something. What is that? A great opportunity to get more intimate. So. How?

I am going to discuss how I feel about playing golf.. A practice.. I’ll do it tonight.

“Honey, I want to discuss how I feel about playing golf.. then you can tell me how you feel about me playing this game. Before the morning comes, an excitement enters me. A 6 of 10 in gauge. The thrill of competition is at my best.. like that close colts game we watch together last week. The payoff from a birdie is like victory.. like winning a 777 at the casino. Those deer I see give me an inner peace. The men I see tell me great stories.. like the time he hit a ball at this brown object in the fairway, the brown object a groundhog, then moved to his ball and grabbed it with his mouth carrying it away.. one of so many funny things. My thoughts are all positive on the course despite my cussing when I shank one in the woods. Looking for my ball finding other lost balls is like an Easter egg hunt. It is pure peace and entertainment. The time I spend means all that to me”

Now, how do you feel about my playing golf? And I will listen making no decision.

A giving W will say.. Honey I want you to have those feelings. One that is selfish will say something different. Years ago, when she criticized my spending so much time on the course, she went to her dad. Her dad told her, “Well honey, Dave could be going out drinking every night.” Her Dad missed the point completely… I do get today.

It is my belief this is about her love of quality time.. her not feeling she is not getting quality time. It is about jealously when she is working, and I am playing with customers. It will be interesting to listen to her reacting to me. I predict she will submit.. not even know why she feels this way. I think it is important we do know about our spouses history. My W was the youngest daughter in a family of 3 brothers. She was the focus of so much of their affirmation, their enabling.. They all do it to my kids. I can see my DD falling into the same dangerous cycle. It is never enough.. an attitude leaning toward only taking.. not toward giving.

Hah.. the Five languages of love? I use it all the time.
“DD.. A quality woman living for free in her parents house loves them with service and respect. Mom is sick and I am out of town. We need help with the laundry. I love you and see u later this week.”

I know this about LTA’s.. Some of us had spouses that to no end suck the life out of us and we kept giving and giving.. but it was not enough.. US never took a stand. All we can be and do is be 100% certain we are doing our part to the best of our ability. And if that is not enough.. We love ourselves by being strong. And guess what? Strong will attract your spouse more. That is what my therapist teaches and many men have proven to me with stories of success.

This is the point I am trying to make to all.. That is a comment that cannot go without making him react. I see a couple things your H needs to learn. He cannot tell you how to feel. He should never again even think that is something to say. He mind should be more in.. how he feels.. and listen to how you feel.

“Honey, you said something to me that you must understand. You cannot tell me how to feel. I feel the way feel. Really, you should find way to learn how to say things that will build me up.. I do have a self-esteem you know. You can build it up.. or tear it down… Building it up is good for our M.: Then go about your day..

Thanks ats..

[This message edited by trynhard at 11:01 AM, September 18th (Wednesday)]

Posts: 2636 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
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Default  Posted: 12:22 PM, September 18th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage


There are so many things that have gone unspoken.

At this point my arm could be chopped off and H would ask if I was ok and I would answer I am fine, that is how bad things are.

Alittle backround info. We went to two different MCs. The As were never discussed at any length. We were working on feeling connected to one another again and a safe place to discuss the As. We never got that far. H was uncomfortable talking about the As. So we agreed in MC that I would write down my questions and he would answer in a letter one at a time. That would be talked about in MC.
Two of my questions were answered. I still have those letters from him. At the next MC appointment, no third letter. That was when he decided that, he did not want to discuss the As anymore because we had been doing so well with communication after retrouvaille.

What would it help to bring it all up?

It would only set us back. Hs opinion!

That MC left the practice so we had to find another.

Second MC same pattern. Build on feeling connected again talk to each other. He was ok in the appiontments but no follow through with her suggestions. I felt like I was doing all of the work. He never or was unwilling to understand why I needed to talk about the As.

The question or the talk I wanted to have that ended the second MC sessions was...

"What is the difference between sex and making love".

Nothing grafic or detail about the As. I had enough mind movies on my own and I did not want to know the gruesome details thank you very much.
It was no problem in MC yes he was ok talking about it. We never talked.

I cannot remember all of my questions he still has the letter I wrote with the questions.
Most of them were more about him and his feeling.

Where the hell his head was.

Heres a few I can remember.

What did you get from them that you were not getting in our marriage.

What did you tell yourself to make it ok in your head.

How could you lie to me so well.

How long did it actually go on? Has she or any of them ever accompanied you out of town?

How many times did you sleep there over nite? (To me this is a big one I am not sure why).

Did you ever think you loved her.

Did they encourage you to divorce me?

Why didn't you leave if you were so unhappy

Have they ever been anywhere we were at the same time that we were there? (andys bars)

What was so appealing about them in your eyes; very, a little, or not that much.

After you knew one of the OW gave you the HPV virus that you gave me how could you continue to have unprotect sex with them or sex at all for that matter?

The biggest question of all


That was most of the questions.

Yes Tryan, 3years and still I need something.
I agree sometimemes healing takes longer.

I would love to have a heated fight about anything!!!!!!

I know you are right about my anger it is palable you can almost feel it. It comes out in wise ass remarks.

Ideally, I will say if a person who committed something so evil and got caught would have the courage to expose themselves completely NAKED.. about all they did.. it a good thing. A betrayed person can process the grief far quicker

This will never happen, he will never look at himself like that.

What is the most evil thing YOU have ever done to hurt another person? Most important words in the question.. to hurt another person?

I am no angel but I can honestly say I have never hurt someone that was life changing. Maybe WH with some of the things I said rigth after D-day.
I have always been very careful of my actions or my words. IC thought I must have been hurt alot by words and actions when I was younger. I do not remember most of my childhood. But thats another post.

As far as Retrouvaille I think thats over.


I think I painted a better picture.

Thanks everyone

[This message edited by danni at 1:05 PM, September 18th (Wednesday)]

Danni 47 BS
him WS 47
Married 28+
3 children 21,22,26
1st D-day I was 8mths preg with last child
2nd D-day 4/13/2010
2OW same time frame

R'ing ?? yes, no, maybe, I dont know

This is not the end, this is not the beginning
linkin park

Posts: 320 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: massachusetts
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Default  Posted: 4:31 PM, September 18th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

NJ – Both, I think. First of all, I’m trying to interpret what these results really mean. I haven’t read the book yet, I’m 2/3 of the way through Not Just Friends, and then it’s next on my list. Physical touch was very low on DD’s list, which I thought was odd considering she is a very huggy, cuddly, affectionate type of person. She said she chose the other response most of the time because she doesn’t need hugs – she can get them any time she wants. To her, it was more an indication that Quality Time was what she felt deficient in at the moment as opposed to how she expresses or feels love when all else is right in the world.

Apply that to me. I think it’s accurate that Words of Affirmation and Physical Touch are how I feel loved, but an argument can also be made that I clearly feel deficient in those areas right now.

Now apply that to my WH. Physical Touch scored a one – a 1! – when he had a lust-driven LTA, all the while cutting me off completely. I had flashbacks of some of the explicit emails I read and photos I saw and started shaking. More importantly, physical touch was always very important to him prior to the A, so why does it score so low now? I’m not very trusting at the moment, so it goes onto the list of ‘things that make me go hmmm.’ His answers really bothered me for other reasons as well. I have to admit my first thought was not a productive one – you expect me to wait on you and buy you gifts, but you have no desire to touch me?! I know that it said that’s not what Acts of Service and Receiving Gifts is really about, but it’s hard to not have that reaction. In all honesty, my husband has always been materialistic – way too concerned with Keeping Up with the Jone’es and wanting the latest and greatest gadget. I’m just… not. It’s a FOO issue for him and prior to the A, I paid it no mind. If WH wanted something, I wanted him to have it, whether we had the money or not. I never told him no, ever. Sure, money has always been a stress factor and we have always lived paycheck to paycheck no matter how large or small that paycheck was, but I married for love, not for money. Now, however, I find myself having no patience for it.

Tryn – My guess is that you will find it is less about whether or not you play golf, and more about her wanting to spend quality time with you that she feels is being siphoned away by the golf time.

Positive – hope all goes well today!

Honest – I am glad you think so. You sound stronger too!

ats - When did you learn about her looking up OM?

[This message edited by DecimatedHeart at 4:32 PM, September 18th (Wednesday)]

Me, BS 41
Him WH 42 - LTA, EA/PA
Together 24 years
DD13 - the love of my life
DDay#1 11/10/2012
DDay#4 4/5/2013 (NC broken AGAIN)
A supposedly over 6/14/2013

All my posts are edited - I hate typos. :)

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Default  Posted: 6:21 PM, September 18th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi Honest...its good to see you guys too. I haven't gone far really. Always reading, learning and appreciating the collective wisdom here. And thank you Ats and 7yrs for your responses. I totally agree. If he wasn't giving us 100 percent, then he wasn't being a good parent. I do understand that it would be easier to admit that he was being a bad can't really deny that after a LTA, but I guess I just wanted him to see that his choices affected more than just us...but our boys too. They are young...10 and they don't know anything...but he still put their well being in jeopardy and I thought it was important to realize this...not avoid it.

I do want to post more...I will try to give back more. I hope I have some worthwhile advice to add. I think sometiimes my self-esteem is so shot that I can't even give good advice anymore! And yes...I'm working on that.

[This message edited by Teach8 at 7:08 PM, September 18th (Wednesday)]

Me: BW. Him: WH. Dday: 4/26/12. TT until 8/15/12 LTA 7 years. Trying to R

Posts: 468 | Registered: Aug 2012
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Default  Posted: 6:53 PM, September 18th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Teach - my DD is quick to tell you that she was betrayed too. Time was taken from her, lies were told to her, gaslighting was done to her. Her life has suffered as a result, and if we cannot R, it will suffer more. So, yes, I believe it affects your parenting.

Forgot to mention tryn - great pic! Is that your dog?

[This message edited by DecimatedHeart at 6:54 PM, September 18th, 2013 (Wednesday)]

Me, BS 41
Him WH 42 - LTA, EA/PA
Together 24 years
DD13 - the love of my life
DDay#1 11/10/2012
DDay#4 4/5/2013 (NC broken AGAIN)
A supposedly over 6/14/2013

All my posts are edited - I hate typos. :)

Posts: 129 | Registered: Nov 2012
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Default  Posted: 10:46 PM, September 18th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

hi everyone, been busy, but really quickly:

teach - good to hear from you

ats - you got the LTA general concept pinned down - to extend it further, the 'hole' according to my WW kept on getting bigger as the betrayal corroded everything else - so attempts to further fill it became more like the behaviors of a junkie

tryn - I don't think you're angry, unless the Colts lose...and with that I have to say...

I have a collie, too...but...

...Mandy is a TITANS FAN !!!!!

[This message edited by MC_Jack at 10:46 PM, September 18th (Wednesday)]

I am not a marriage counselor. I chose "MC Jack" in the spirit of a handle like "MC Hammer" or Young MC"...there is a lot of 'rapping' here, no? At the time I did not know what MC stood for on this site. Duh.

Posts: 792 | Registered: Mar 2012 | From: West Coast of Hopa-hopa-land
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Default  Posted: 11:01 PM, September 18th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

MCJack and Tryin-
Love those beautiful collies!

Danni- All of your questions are valid. I asked many of the exact same questions.
It's a shame that the WS do not understand that TT (trickle truth) or refusing to discuss the LTA just drags things out and potentially destroys any chance for Reconciliation.
Like I said ...just rip that band aid off! Answer the questions and get it over with once and for all so that true healing can begin.

Decimated- I can see why you are confused and angry about your WS' answers to the Five Love Languages.
Do you think he will be able to explain it to you?
And your DD may just have misunderstood the question and said to herself ...I need physical touch but I get a lot of that already so I will focus on what I don't feel I am getting right now?

Me- BS
Him- WH
Long term marriage
D-day- Jan. 2007
5 yr. LTA

Posts: 3139 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: NJ
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Default  Posted: 11:58 PM, September 18th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I like this thread a lot. I see so much support and honesty and vulnerability. I am learning so much from all of you.

One of my struggles in this process has been that I have beat myself over not figuring things out sooner when I suspected something was up fairly early into the 2.5 year affair. MC recently asked me to put together timeline of everything. When I transcribed all of the texts and wrote what I believe to be the timeline of events, it was like, "DUH! WIF! He's cheating! He's lying!" What can I say - I believed him, I trusted him, I was distracted with the activities of two young dc and community involvement. Why is it so obvious NOW and it wasn't obvious then?

One of the things I have learned on here is that there are people who are way smarter, less trusting, more suspicious, busier and more distracted than I am and they did not know what was going on for a long time, too. Sometimes longer than 2.5 years. As odd as it seems, I take some comfort in that (but I don't mean that in a degrading way to people who did not catch on to someone having a 3 or 4 or 5 or whatever amount of time LTA - a LTA with one person is an LTA no matter what the length).

One of the hard things I have had to deal with is the comments from well meaning people who know most of what is going on. For example, I am friends with the wife of one of SAWH's friends. Her H figured out SAWH was having A about 2 years into it. Did not talk to my H for about a month after he figured it out. They are involved in a business so had to resume communication for business reasons. However, her H knew a lot of details that I did not know...and after DD and the months that followed, my friend was slowly extracting this information and of course passing it onto me. I know she is on my side but I also get the sense she likes having this power over me. She's always been like that with me (and others). It's like SHE knows more than you, she knows best, she needs to control the situation. I know...dynamic is twisted. I do deserve to know the truth, but every time she uncovers some new detail that SAWH (neither she nor her H know about the SA part of it, BTW) hasn't been forthright about, she outright criticizes me, saying stuff like "WIF, wake up ( or smarten up)...he must still be seeing OW." Normally, I am a person who really doesn't care about what other people think about what I do. But for some reason, I am really affected by this. Probably because generally speaking, I am a lot smarter in most categories than this person and I certainly would not insult someone or criticize someone who is going through a rough time.

For those of you who are in R and have been for awhile: Have your spouses said that they almost wished they could get caught? That towards the end they were burning out? The guilt was consuming them? I'm curious about this...this is what my SAWH is telling me. One of my SAWH's issues has always been "telling people what they want to hear," lying, that sort of thing. He's done this with EVERYONE in his life, not just me. So I assume he did this with OW. I am fairly certain she can be no different than the rest of us, right? No matter how fantasy driven their secret life was, his selfishness and piggishness had to have entered the picture.

BS - mid-40's
SAWH - mid 40's
Kids - 2 elementary school aged
Getting tons of therapy and trying to "work it out"

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Default  Posted: 6:07 AM, September 19th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

So I keep going back and forth about the flowers WH had delivered to me for our anniversary - the exact same two dozen long stemmed multicolored roses that he sent OW for her birthday this year. (I know this because she made a big deal about it on her Facebook page which I used to check religiously.)

So I'm torn by the fact that first I'm FURIOUS, but then I pretty much smile because ultimately is so freaking screwed up! !

Plus it also means (at least in my mind one of two things) - either he's missing OW so much that he's trying to replicate, or two, he really didn't put much thought into her either.

Because when I broached the subject with him he said he honestly didn't remember what he had sent her (it was only 2.5 months ago so I doubt that), and he was so stunned that I believe him. He pretty much just said they were the prettiest, so that's what he sent me, at least I didn't get the default vase like she did - he actually choose one that corresponded with our wedding colors years ago.

Either way - I'm sure that his account with 1-800-flowers had a special sticky that reads "this man is a GOOD customer with a secret to keep. Don't screw the deliveries up!"

I absolutely long for the day when I don't have to analyze a flower delivery.

ETA: He did offer to destroy said flowers for me and have new ones delivered today. Not sure how to feel about that either, but I told him it wasn't necessary.

I REALLY want to make a public posting on my Facebook page about the flowers with pictures since I'm pretty sure she still stalks my page. But I'm trying NOT to give her reason to contact him. I think she'd be crushed though to realize her "beautiful two dozen long stemmed roses that the love of her life thought enough of her to send her for her birthday" had been replicated.

[This message edited by PositiveAttitude at 6:22 AM, September 19th (Thursday)]

Posts: 153 | Registered: Sep 2013 | From:
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Default  Posted: 7:40 AM, September 19th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

womaninflux - very interesting questions.

For myself, I can honestly say I really did not have a clue for 12+ years. My WW was extremely good at keeping her secret. Short of me going out and following her to make sure she was out with the girls I don't think I could have ever figured it out. She told no one that she was having an A the entire time up until the very end. I think since her A was for the entire time we were together that also contributed to me not suspecting because there were not any behavior changes that I could notice.

In the end, she finally told another person about the LTA and that information got back to me. I suspect she was burning out with the secret. During those 12+ years she covered her tracks extremely well. In a sick way, it is somewhat impressive how she was able to pull it off.

BS - Me 38
WS - Wife 39
D-Day - Oct 12
Married 10 years
OM1 - 12-year LTA
OM2 - 9 month A turned into open relationship with couple for another 1 1/2 years

Posts: 405 | Registered: Nov 2012
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Default  Posted: 8:31 AM, September 19th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi positive, I don't really understand the focus on the OW. I posted on this last month in contrasting men and women in terms of the OP. I just don't think giving any head space to the OW serves any benefit. It should be about what you want for an M and spouse and a candid evaluation of what you have. Figuring out those is hard enough. 'Winning' some imaginary competition isn't going to help you but is a distraction. My 2 cents...

WiF, it is easy to be deceived. There are often 2 people busy at it, your spouse and yourself.

The only thing you had control over was bringing on conflict when things we not right, or your needs were not being met. I made the mistake of being 'satisficed', just accepting my lot as the natural consequence of a complicated life. I learned that powerless behavior from my FOO. Plus in some ways I conflated naivite with happiness. Not the same thing, and easily confused because I did not know what I wanted to be happy. An area of self work for me.

Besides the deception itself from your spouse, there is often a mask of over compensation. My wife went into a mode of making everything great - out of guilt - so that mask tricked me even more. I thought thing were going great! All it did was add to the trauma of being blindsided.

I want to live in a world in which you can trust people. I want to default with trust and the idea that people are generally good. Not the opposite.

I hope everyone is having good week.


I am not a marriage counselor. I chose "MC Jack" in the spirit of a handle like "MC Hammer" or Young MC"...there is a lot of 'rapping' here, no? At the time I did not know what MC stood for on this site. Duh.

Posts: 792 | Registered: Mar 2012 | From: West Coast of Hopa-hopa-land
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Default  Posted: 9:31 AM, September 19th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

So.. I asked my W to tell me how she feels about me playing so much golf. I did not bring up her smart ass comments to me..

She says she wants me to play golf and she feels very envious and jealous. I did not express my feelings since she said she wanted me to play.


So ladies.. what is the real meaning, the woman’s secret code behind those feelings?

Now my therapist says… I lead her out of those feelings… that horrible human belief, behavior, a bad value, a dangers value… that being envy and jealousy. No doubt FOO taught I see..

Never trust anyone who wants what you've got. Friend or no, envy is an overwhelming emotion.
Eubie Blake

Envy is the art of counting the other fellow's blessings instead of your own.
Harold Coffin

Envy comes from people's ignorance of, or lack of belief in, their own gifts.
Jean Vanier

Our envy always lasts longer than the happiness of those we envy.

Envy, like the worm, never runs but to the fairest fruit; like a cunning bloodhound, it singles out the fattest deer in the flock.
Francis Beaumont

Jealousy is the fear or apprehension of superiority: envy our uneasiness under it.
William Shenstone

This one is about Nell’s H.. he so desired a flat belly… like so many men.. and those who cheat..

Men know they are sexual exiles. They wander the earth seeking satisfaction, craving and despising, never content. There is nothing in that anguished motion for women to envy.
Camille Paglia

I know my Woman is a follower. He says there are two types of women.. A woman who can be lead, or a woman tricked by society into being a feminist. Thank goodness my W is a follower of a man… or my therapist says I would have to dump her.

Feminist needs an un-masculine man. A masculine man lives in misery with a feminist. These are woman trying to behave and act like a man.. a fake existence. Gender differences are part of nature. A real woman wants a man to take care of her.. sweep her away.. a man she can view as a hero.. A feminist denies her man from being a hero.. she wants to take on that role. A feminist is OK with others raising their kids and is OK with not nurturing their kids at a very young age.. A given talent to all women in nature is to be a nurturer. What do you think about that ladies?

MC.. our lives are like looking in a mirror.. we have much in common. BTW.. I admire your attempts to service your community and be a leader. Damn you are a good man.

Interesting story about the dog in my picture. That was taken at a winery in Indiana. I entertain my W… a trip planned by me.. to put her in a romantic, intimate, fun.. mood. A manly thing we must do. That picture was taken in that moment. That dog was in a way behaving like those in emotional affairs. The dog was owned by a neighbor. Everyday, this dog would leave his home and come to the winery. At about 5 pm.. the dog would leave and go back home… lol.. he was loving two families. He was being loved by two families. Why? During the day he got no attention while his owner was at work. He filled his need by going to some other place. Now granted, I know people must work to support that dog. The dog didn’t care.. he had a hole to fill. Perhaps if the owners gave that dog another dog to be with.. or came home for lunch… that dog might have just stayed home thus making that dog.. Affair proof. But the owner may not know how to keep his dog home. The owner may not care by allowing his dog to share love..

Dogs are pure love.. most Humans too.. I view Honest as pure love… such a gift. A dog can be beat and still love his owner… they just don’t leave. I know this.. Our spouses had holes needing to be filled too.. And we could have given it to them.. perhaps we just didn’t know.. our own FOO issues.. being taught to be quality.

Welcome womaninflux..
Have your spouses said that they almost wished they could get caught? Yes
That towards the end they were burning out? Yes
The guilt was consuming them? Yes

BTW.. a good person who make bad choices.. they know.. it is within them and I say what your H is tell you is a good thing.

[This message edited by trynhard at 10:12 AM, September 19th (Thursday)]

Posts: 2636 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
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Default  Posted: 9:43 AM, September 19th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Ok nice post danni...

I am going to try to make a few post with things I have learned but know it may not be perfect.. NJgal, iwant, honest, allgood, and the others will steer me in the right way...perhaps the men too

I am going to address people who have done evil. First you and I never hurt anyone. It take understanding by us. You are going to have to believe me with all your heart. Others here may be able to help me if their spouses did open up. Since we all her know what it feels like to be on this side of LTA.. but most of us never truly harm another like I mentioned and don't know what if feels like to be on the others side.

People that hurt others so bad have a coping method. Whether they know it or not, they forgive themselves. You know how to forgive yes? You no longer make the offender feel guilt. Your H has forgiven himself. You said you think it is too late. You are correct.

When you bring it up.. Or plan to bring it up... He feels guilty. He reacts to prevent the guilt and shame. This protects him.

If you do not make the choice to forgive.. You say in grief while in his world. And the forgiving process after this evil takes years. I am not in total forgiveness myself. I still believe I have it within myself to speak with my heart as hard as I try to control it.

You also must understand that the offender felt justified for years. They believed. They lived it and much of it was pleasant. The hard part is for them is to face the people they hurt. It hurts them so yes they avoid it.

They think just like your H.. Nothing more to say.. It was my evil and I cannot change it. It is most healthy for them to move forward. And if that means making the one they hurt no longer part of world, that is what you do and they do.

Believe me when I say, he still feels it. When a person has no clue how to help themselves, they do what I said above. It is the way they deal with such horrible thing.

They are far different than NJgals H.. He went to AA. Retrouville only is about communication.

You have a choice right now. You can make this about him or you can make this about you. I say make this about YOU. Perhaps to some who will disagree with me. I will be very direct. A person can rug sweep evil and they do. Some don't, some do. It does not mean what he is doing is wrong. It is just different. It may not be the best way, but it does not mean it is wrong.

Your man is not broken in his choice. This is what you do so you don't go into mental illness.

You have to believe your man is trying to lead you to a better place.

How you react will open him or close him down. He tried to be open then felt unsafe. You might not like this question. How did you react when he answered those two? You do know what we say, what we do can open someone up or shut them down.

Oh am I guilty as hell. I threw her shit right back in her face and even more on top of that. You think a woman wantss to see her man cry over the evil she did? Get that shit thrown right bak in the face? I know by your H going to Retro he is not a cold man. That effort was big.

I can answer your questions you need to know. I know I can because I have talked to many cheaters. I will answer them and they are going to make you feel pain. You are going to cry. You will hate what I say. Do I think you should know them? Yes. You say ok to me I will blast away... Then you can react anyway you want to me.. Cuss me, tell me I'm wrong.. Cry.. I'm good with it.

Once I tell you.. Should you dare give me the ok.. Forgive and never make your H feel shamed and guilt again. Accept what I say because it will be the truth. That is what I want from you in reciprocity.

I am going to tell you something that can give you great feelings. It is amazing how much pride I have because I have not made my W feel guilty in months and months about her sin. It feels good. It started with me saying to myself.. I am going to stop making my W feel guilt. Yes, slipped many times along the way, But I picked myself up again and started over.

A liar can tell that same lie over and over until they believe it. It is no different if I flip this to being what I already know about your H. It won't be a lie though. The difference is that I know what your H was feeling because I have the ability to place my thoughts in the shoes of a male cheater. I think MC and ats can do it too? I can relate. So ou believe me and then let it go.. I DON'T NEED those awsers.. Tryn told me.. I believe him.. My H doesn't need to tell me.. I KNOW.

The things these men said to me are all in common. It is very likely your man felt the same.

The ones I cannot answer will be the how long. Overnight visits.. But if you need to know.. I can help you word something that may open him up on those.

You ready? It is going to take some courage.. we can take our time.

What do you think about point on caring less?

[This message edited by trynhard at 10:46 AM, September 19th (Thursday)]

Posts: 2636 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
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Default  Posted: 9:46 AM, September 19th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Oh, tryn, you cause me to come out of lurkdom. You share so much good stuff and then this just gets me shaking my head.
Feminist needs an un-masculine man. A masculine man lives in misery with a feminist. These are woman trying to behave and act like a man.. a fake existence. Gender differences are part of nature. A real woman wants a man to take care of her.. sweep her away.. a man she can view as a hero.. A feminist denies her man from being a hero.. she wants to take on that role. A feminist is OK with others raising their kids and is OK with not nurturing their kids at a very young age.. A given talent to all women in nature is to be a nurturer. What do you think about that ladies?
I am sorry I don't have time to get into everything I think about this unfair generalization, but I will say I feel that is just a bunch of bullshit.
Thank goodness my W is a follower of a man… or my therapist says I would have to dump her.
Yes, I do agree with your therapist.

BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson

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