Not to open freshly bandaged wounds with all of you, but I made the mistake of starting on page 37, thinking that I'd never read everything, but get a feel for it by reading the last 3 pages. Quite a debate you were all having...
I'm battling for my sanity in R.
My story (super brief): my oldest 2 kids found out about my WH's A in July 12. In Sept 12, my DD confronted him. He kept on... didn't tell me until he had rented an apartment and was ready to go in Feb 13. Fallout of the S for my kids lifted his fog a bit. Have been trying to R. It's really hard, especially still S. Always 2 steps forward, one back. Sometimes it appears he has true remorse, later I am not sure. It's truly a living hell. (I'm here 'cause this is called ICR, right?)
Had a very trying weekend.... Have sent WH a couple good emails today. Feeling like I got a lot off my chest with a lot of good food for thought and suggestions for moving forward.
Thought I'd peek in here and say hello... test the waters... I'm employed part-time, working from home... a strong woman but not necessarily a feminist (sorry, I couldn't resist just one poke at you all...) I feel like I'm a terrible mother these days because of the A fallout, regardless of my status. BTW, the OW is the president of a non-profit. My WH is the president of 2 manufacturing companies. He didn't affair down, but he's definitely broken. sigh.
OK, probably shouldn't have introduced myself when I'm feeling sassy, but there you have it!
edited for typos. (oops- yes, the AP is an OW, not OM )
[This message edited by StillStanding1 at 7:01 AM, September 23rd (Monday)]
Please go back further in this thread to read! We are a family here, and like all families sometimes get into deep discussions
There are many wonderful and wise people here who have literally saved my life when I thought all hope was lost.
The pain of the betrayal of a LTA is very deep. IC is helpful in helping you heal.
You need to see what YOU need for R and set your boundaries. Keep coming and posting. We help each other as much as we can, either with good advice or just listening with care.
MC - How are you feeling? Better, I hope.
StillStanding - Nice to meet you, although sorry you find yourself here. If you have the time - go back further - the past several pages are not really indicative of what the atmosphere in this tribe is really like. As Honest said, it does feel like a family, debates and all, and it is one of the reasons this is usually the only place I post. Just to clarify - you said that your WH had an OM?
As for me, I made a decision to rock the boat a bit. On the outside, you would think the fact that we are not fighting would be a good thing, but really all it means is that we're not discussing the issues. As ats predicted, the itch in the back of my head will not go away. I asked WH the other day how he thought things were going between us and he said he hadn't thought about it. He was just trying to get by day to day. I was wrong - he hasn't listened to the audiobook, doesn't know what he did with it. He said that he still doesn't feel the way he used to, but it's "not as bad as it used to be." Gee, isn't that nice? He then promptly changed the subject, without bothering to ask me how I felt things were going.
Yesterday, the closet rod on his side of the closet came off the wall, and I noticed it on my way to work and had no time to do anything about it. Today he tells me that he is pissed I didn't bother to text him or let him know and that I let the clothes sit on the closet floor getting wrinkled for 24 hours. Therefore, I "don't give a shit about him." I told him he had no right to say that to me - that here I am, 10 months past D-day, not feeling loved, not even confident that he has truly ended the affair since his electronics are locked down like he's in the freaking CIA, feeling like I am the only one working on our marriage, and yet I am still here because I love him, yet he's going to say I don't give a shit about him because I let his clothes get wrinkled??? He asked me if every argument we ever have is going to circle back to the A. Seriously? Especially since just the night before we were watching The White Queen and the king cheated on her and she was talking about how she felt about it and I start sobbing. His response was to sigh and ask me why I was crying. Really? You don't know?! On a side note, are there really no television shows on anymore without cheating? It's no wonder I stick to Sci-Fi and the Food Network.
Ah well, sorry about the ramble - this is what goes through my head at 2am when I can't sleep.
Love and hugs to you all!
All my posts are edited - I hate typos. :)
Once we actually separated, however, he has since determined that he will do "whatever it takes" to get back together.
I have often told him, that his treatment of me after DDay - not just the few raw weeks, etc. immediately following, but for the entire span of our R effort, was more hurtful than the A itself. I felt like he abandoned me. I felt his lack of effort in R under the circumstances was heartless. At some point, I came to the conclusion that he might just not care about me enough and that I don't care to live with a partner like that.
I'm not saying to take one action or another -just sharing my experience as I can certainly relate to the lackluster effort from someone professing to want R.
[This message edited by Allgoodnamesgone at 6:27 AM, September 23rd (Monday)]
There is something that I feel compelled to do and I am asking for your opinions to see if this is fair.
Our 2nd antiversary is coming up in two months.
I have repeatedly asked my H to fill my original requirements for R.
To recap, these are:
1). A timeline
2). A letter to MOW denouncing the A, stating that he will always regret it, that it was not a result of a "deep love between them" (her understanding) but of selfish using of each other and cruel lack of consideration for those that he really loved. That they did not have a "friendship" because friends don't encourage lies and deceit that destroys lives.
3). A letter of apology to OBS. A man who always showed respect and friendship to my H and who was cuckolded for years because of the LTA.
4). The removal of MOW's voice from the office answering service.
5). The removal of her voice from his personal voicemail recording. This was done two weeks ago after receiving an ultimatum from me.
6) Counselling. He has seen an IC about six times in the last four months. He feels he isn't getting that much out of his sessions, so promised to post here, on the Wayward forum to ask for help in looking into his issues. No posts yet, and only reads sporadically when encouraged by me,
He has not written the timeline because he is too busy and has not made it a priority.
He has not written the letters as he does not want to open any doors up to OW and fears legal repercussions from OBS. I understand this and have asked him to write them anyway, for me, even if we do not send them.
He has not had her voice removed from the main switchboard because he wants to avoid conflict with his partners. There are other issues to deal with and does not want to detract from them.
Just last night I asked if my discomfort about the voice message was secondary to his discomfort about arranging a change. He replied "We'll, it isn't like it is in your face. You never call on the office line".
I replied that I felt it was a huge disrespect to me to not have changed it in almost two years. Nothing more said.
Sadly, I realize that none of these things will come about without forcing the issue and without ultimatums.
I feel ready, at this point to
tell him that I expect these requirements to be fulfilled before the end of November - all of them - or he can leave.
I feel that we have made much progress in reconnecting and supporting each other. We have been rebuilding our relationship and are hopeful for the future. We talk about the A still, but less frequently and only when I bring it up.
My H says he is very happy to be together, is loving and attentive, but I feel he would be content if we could just forget the past. He says that I am the most important thing in his life, yet he has been unable to do these things for me.
At one time he said he would do "whatever it takes" to make things right between us.
I, just recently have felt better, stronger and more confident. But I feel I need to stick up for myself and insist that these requirements are not forgotten.
Am I being fair? I have waited almost two years and I feel that if I don't insist, they will never be done.
I will probably not send the letters, but I had hoped he would write them for me.
I still need the timeline. Whenever I bring it up, he seems surprised that I still expect it and promises to do it.
When I mention the voice recording he sighs and makes me feel like I am adding to his stresses at work.
I worry that in another two years, or ten, that I will regret not pushing for these things.
Yes, I am prepared to follow through, and ask him to leave if they are not done.
Sorry this has been so long.
Your requests were fair. He has consistently responded to your requests for two years now. Why give him an additional 2 months?
As for the items, I would drop the letters to OW and BS. As a BS I do not want to hear from the OM, especially not 2 years out. A letter to OW is breaking NC, so no to that also. I can see the value in having him write the letters and not sending them, but if it takes an ultimatum to get him to reluctantly write them I see little to no value.
Timeline sure, but what level of detail do you expect at this point?
IC and posting will be of no use to him if he is made to do it, you can lead a horse to water...
He is unwilling to remove traces of OW from his life because it may be uncomfortable at work, although how his personal VM was uncomfortable to change is a wonder. He has not done a timeline for 2 years. He does not see any value in IC or posting.
and yet you write:
I feel that we have made much progress in reconnecting and supporting each other. We have been rebuilding our relationship and are hopeful for the future.
Your WH has been "allowed" to rug sweep. He has not done those things you list and yet you and he have been successfully reconnecting and rebuilding for 2 years. I can see his position on this that if you have 2 years of successful reconnecting and rebuilding, how is going back through a timeline or writing letters to OW and BS going to make things better?
Yes, I am prepared to follow through, and ask him to leave if they are not done.
They are not done, have not been done. Follow through. Tell him it is time to leave, now. Not in November, not after the holidays.
or, realize there is probably not much detail available from 2 - 4 year old timeline information. Write off the letters as too late. Forget about IC, he is not interested, and ask him to do MC with you and address voice mail and other issues there while you continue to rebuild and reconnect.
You are right on all points. There probably is no value in doing any of these things if I have to force him.
When I gave him the ultimatum regarding his personal voicemail, I explained that the change would have meant So much more to me had he done it at my very first request. He admitted that he should have done it long ago. He just didn't make it a priority.
The timeline is important to me only so that I can look at those 15 years and fit my own memories along side. to understand where I was, where we were as a family. At this point my own life is a blur. It consists of Pre A, A and post A.
I want to understand what events were occurring that enabled the secrecy. What was I so involved with that I didn't notice things? When exactly did the A progress from EA to PA?
He still has emails between them on his computer and work notes to help him put the pieces together.
I agree about the letters. I guess what I really want is for him to show me that he meant it when he said he would do anything to make things right. That my comfort is more important than his discomfort.
I won't get that by pushing.
Yes, again, I have allowed him to rug sweep. I have made mistakes since dday that I cannot change now, but I don't want to continue making the same mistakes.
Yet I feel ultimatums and threats are not the way to go.
I guess I have to decide if it is better to live with him without seeing the dedication I want, or to live without him.
We have been to MC. The MC would ask him every week how his timeline was coming along. Even his IC tells him he is selfish for not making the time to do it and for not initiating conversations with me about the A.
Force him to act and devalue the action? Or be satisfied with what I've got?
Force him to act and devalue the action? Or be satisfied with what I've got?
or not be satisfied and start taking steps towards a life you will be happy with. If you have not been a priority this long, it is hard to see things changing in the next few months.
welcome to our group. Yes we do discuss, argue, support, etc. We have all gotten to know each other over the months/years.
I read this:
feel like I'm a terrible mother these days because of the A fallout
and I am going to be a typical man here and tell you that you shouldn't feel that way. (hah!) But really, there is tremendous fallout from infidelity, and we are not immortal super-humans. The fallout on my end affected my business tremendously and thus other peoples lives, not just those of my family.
So you say he didn't affair down. Well in terms of integrity, he did. We all just want to be loved and accepted for who we are. There is always going to be someone smarter, stronger, better looking, richer, whatever. No matter who you are. So what. That is all surface.
We are on thread 32 now. I joined in either 28 or 29. Each thread has a lot of good conversation, thinking, and support. We are always going over it again. Such is the nature of these trauma.
Hey DHeart -
I am doing fine overall. What I am struggling with is not an acute issue, but something that will take a long time to fix within me. I was at a cocktail party Sat. night. Always lots of flirting etc. Anyways, it was a lot easier being faithful in support of the continued innocence of the marriage. A simple, external construct. Now it is just an ongoing battle in my head. That, forgiving, my fragile ego, being grateful for what I have, etc. - that is why I have been saying that it's 'about me'. Yep I think about things too much; always have.
Anyways, Dheart, the stonewalling you get just sucks. I have gotten that too from time to time. For me it comes in the form of an concerned "what happened?" in response to me feeling down as if it must be something new not just processing it all. Sorry honey, not 'over it'.
At some point, 'tough love' might be your only chance. There is a user here that I am friends with (prior to SI). Here is what she has in her bio on what she did to end the gaslighting:
In January 2008, he broke NC again and I asked him to leave. I had kept his secret; now I told the OW's boyfriend, their coworkers, our family. I took his house key & garage clicker, I changed the answering machine message. He was SHOCKED. He could not believe that I did not want him anymore. He begged to be allowed back. But I was DONE--sad, but calm. February 2008: I allowed him to move back in. True R began.
They are still together now. And, the dude still works in the same office as OW. But, he got the message. Some guys are dense, some just will always try to maximize what they can get away with. Sometimes you have o force someone's hand. And be ready to leave the table.
Fighting, yes, you too, you do have to lay it all on the line sometimes. 'Tough love' is all part of my favorite ATS quote (paraphrasing) that you can only save your marriage once you are ready to let it go. It is a complicated mental statement. I don't really understand it all the time, and there are a lot of ways to read that. But you know it when you feel it and act on it.
Force him to act and devalue the action? Or be satisfied with what I've got?
Telling someone specifically what you want and need is not devaluing anything. Magical thinking says that one should know to do it if he really cared, etc. Give your H a clear, clear choice. Spell out what you need and by when. You don't need to provide notice of the consequences. You just be ready to implement the consequences, like my friend above.
[This message edited by MC_Jack at 12:04 PM, September 23rd (Monday)]
Busy in I can relate.
I am so sorry you are going through this. But in your writing you sound stronger than you think. Prays to you.
Welcome. These are great people. I have only recently return to SI. Alot of comfort and understanding here.
Back from Maine.
No solitude no time.
H showed up before I left. All sorrys. Please dont go without me. I was mad BLAH BALH I should not have said those thing.
H was all apologys very attentive all weekend. But no dicussion of my letter. No talk about g-mail. NOTHING
It was "Lets go to the outlets" shopping for your birthday week(he booked a week in Mexico for my 50th).
This is his way of trying to fix it. Or throw up a smoke screen.
Again not what I want or need.
But I did say all the things I needed. It felt good to get them out.
I think the biggest thing I said was, we are not M just not D. I can not live like this.
Also asked him if he can stay in a M that there is no real connection or intamacy.
H was totaly taken back. Will he talk to me? I doubt it.
I hope your H comes to the mature realization that he needs to be humble and feel uncomfortable for the good of you - and if not - let at least have the decency to simply let you go in a gentle way.
After this weekend I dont think so.
If I asked he would leave. I sometimes think we are each waiting for the other to make the first move.
I also feel that burden too in terms of my own healing. the ego is very powerful. from time to time
H has/had a huge EGO. That is in my HO was the cause the As in the first place. That and plenty of FOO issues.
I told him I did not trust him and that I may never trust him again. Why would I? He seriusly thinks 3 years out and all should be good.
If the shoe was on the other foot and I was the WS we would have been D within six months.
There is also the possibility that he does have a secret Gmail account and all of his drama and angry outbursts is an attempt to divert your attention and keep you from finding out.
I think there is a good possibility. So here I go snooping again.
I am sorry to here your H is still there after 1½. I also asked H to leave immediatly after the As. He moved back in 7 months later. And this is where we are 3 years later.
I have learned to not care. I know none of this is a reflection of me and I know that trying to make him someone he is not, is not going to work.
I agree. I am working to get to that place, but there is that little part of me that still hopes.
So realy my choices are simple.
1. Live with no communication but a H who is trying the best he can(after I do some investigating).
2. Ask H to leave.
Simple to write harded to put into action.
Why after all this I still sit on the fence?
I want the easy button(staples) to make this all happen,go away, whatever.
R'ing ?? yes, no, maybe, I dont know
This is not the end, this is not the beginning
I didnt throw my X out after DDay - it wasn't until 1 1/2 years later that I gave up on R.
Now that I think about it, it wasn't so much that I gave up on his half hearted R effort - it was because he kept doing things that were just so blatantly disrespectful and insensitive, that I had no respect for myself anymore - being in a relationship like that.
[This message edited by Allgoodnamesgone at 1:25 PM, September 23rd (Monday)]
I feel like I'm a terrible mother these days because of the A fallout.
Please try not to feel that way. This truly is a life changer.
Try not to be so hard on yourself.
The As have changed the way I feel about every part of my life.
Fallout of the S for my kids lifted his fog a bit
It will forever change your childrens relationship with thier father.
My children were older when the A was discovered (they only know of the one)and the difference in his relationship with them is heart breaking. This is not for you to fix. I had to step away.
the OW is the president of a non-profit He didn't affair down, but he's definitely broken. sigh.
He did affair down. she is just as broken as he is.
When I first joined this site there was a letter another member wrote. I think it was called they always affair down. I will try to find it. But if anyone else knows who wrote it and where to find it please jump in.
[This message edited by danni at 3:07 PM, September 23rd (Monday)]
"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson
Maybe you can help I am looking for a old post from another member. Is there anyway to track that down?
Search results should show up. Sometimes just one name, somtimes a few variations. Click on the member's name that you are searching for. That should bring you to their profile page. Then in the upper right hand corner there are a few choices. Click on "View Recent Posts". It will then display the members most recent posts on threads. You can go to the list and click on any one of the posts on the list to try to find what you are looking for. Hope you understood that!
[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 3:54 PM, September 23rd (Monday)]
It was posted by deathbybetrayal
Topic: Honey, they always affair down.
Posted: 6:40 PM, November 17th (Tuesday), 2009
Yesterday, I was having a conversation with another SIer and a couple of the things we talked about are recurring topics – especially for the newly betrayed wife. After DDay, we take such a hit to our self-esteem, and question what it was about the other woman that was so attractive to our husbands? Why did they get the best parts, when we were left with the worst? The truth is, that is not how this works. She is not more attractive. She does not get the best parts.
What’s is attractive about the OW is that they are the sickest, the weakest, the most injured of the pack. The insecure WH, wanting to feel strong and powerful, scans the herd for the easiest to kill. The self assured, the strong, the healthy will not do as those women want nothing to do with a married man. Our wayward husbands, needy and looking for someone to boost his ego, must look for someone beneath them, someone who will look up to him, someone who will make him feel superior, if only temporarily. What better way for an insecure person to feel powerful, and admired, than to pick the least of the bunch? The fact is … they always trade down. If she happens to be prettier, or thinner – it’s just pure luck that the wrapping is worth more than the gift inside. What’s inside, is no match for you. You’re beautiful, and faithful, strong and possibly the mother of his children. The truth is, the OW could be anyone, anyone slow enough to be caught and willing to accept what little our husbands had to offer.
She accepts the very worst parts of our husbands; the liar, the cheater, the deceiver, the broken man. His behavior is lower than low, but that’s okay with her. She’s accepts trashy behavior, because she is trash. She has no self-esteem because she knows her value … her value as the weakest, the most injured of the herd. She accepts his cheating ways and lowlife behavior because she knows her place in the pack – and it’s at the end of the row. Bringing up the rear, it’s just a matter of time before someone singles her out, and uses her for his own selfish reasons in his quest to be admired.
So what happens when we catch him with her? Most often he leaves her where he found her, at the end of the row, at the back of the pack – even weaker and more injured than when he found her. She’s worse for the wear. Trust me, it is her self-esteem that is eroded, not ours. After all, she wasn't able to keep him even considering he was in a "loveless, sexless" marriage to a "cold-hearten woman." Because isn't that the way it always is? How pathetic that she's given the answer to the test, gave it her all, and she still failed? Self-esteem erosion 101.
Retake your position at the front of the pack. More often than not, it’s you he’s fighting for; it's you he's sorry for; it’s you he’s trying to be a better man for. Regain your strength. Retake your rightful place.
Betrayal hurts, I know. Boy, do I know. But remember, when they find someone weak enough to have an affair with, they always affair down.
Power and peace to all of the newly betrayed wives today.
I do appreciate your immediate feedback. I did read a thread some time ago about "affairing down" which is where I learned that term. Thanks for the input, danni, and for finding the post, fighting back.
I know I've got a huge mental hurdle to cross when it comes to the OW. He was still "in love" with her when he moved out... I guess I think he still kind of is... Yes, she's a successful, attractive, confident mother of 2. She had the good fortune of a SAHH to enable her career success. She D'd him during her A with my WH, then pressured him to leave me. She's obviously not so wonderful on the inside, but he's oblivious. She's apparently what I am not in the bedroom. (Sorry, does that count as "venting"? How does one explain these things without venting???? I deleted the nickname I've given her... ) WH has a huge ego - I don't think he looked for the weakest in the pack, but she's obviously as broken as he is on the inside.
I know I've got self-esteem issues with all of this... How can I not? Trying to work on being happy with me.
I will keep reading along in this thread and look for all your sage words of advice along the way. No offense, but I wish we didn't have so much in common!!!!
(Sorry, does that count as "venting"? How does one explain these things without venting???? I deleted the nickname I've given her...
eta: Please tell us the nick name.
[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 5:59 PM, September 23rd (Monday)]