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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: Betrayed Men - Part 11
Betrayed444
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Member # 38389
Default  Posted: 1:05 PM, June 21st (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

She seemed truly taken aback by my grief and the intensity of my love for her. There's no excuse for an affair, but it made me realize the part I played in letting the marriage get stale over the years. Stale enough that my wife of 16 years didn't feel loved enough to resist temptation.

Oh I'm sorry. I love you so much. I had no idea. I should have been there for you.....
WTF?!
I guess it was my fault.
Good game. Thanks for playing.


Posts: 494 | Registered: Feb 2013
SuperDuperWonderboy
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Member # 34716
Default  Posted: 1:26 PM, June 21st (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Easy there...That isn't what Sal's WW said. These were Sal's observations. Sal also finished the quote with this:

But she played an equal part in our marriage going stale, and I never considered cheating.

Yes, it's right out of the WW's playbook to blame the "staleness" or lack of intimacy for the affair, and that's bullshit.

That doesn't mean that the marriage hasn't gotten stale or couldn't be improved upon. Objectively, my marriage had become more of a corporation..raising three kids means spending a lot of time doing kids stuff and not being together as a husband and wife.

I am making efforts to be more involved in my marriage now. Not to keep my wife from cheating, but because I genuinely enjoy it. Because it's more fulfilling, and I have a good fucking time with her.


My Friends call me Wonderboy--That's Mr. SuperduperWonderboy to you Tred.


Posts: 1267 | Registered: Feb 2012 | From: Everett
DefiledRage
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Member # 39292
Default  Posted: 2:00 PM, June 21st (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

But she played an equal part in our marriage going stale, and I never considered cheating.

Sal: Think I follow with what your saying. My marriage had gone stale as well. A lot of times I would rather unwind with a game than going out to dinner. I know exactly when these type of things started happening. It started with the birth of our first child. And gradually increased with each one.

Hell it would take all the trees in Oregon to print out all the material written on the natural rhythms of marriage. High in the honeymoon stage, natural up and downs, followed by a resurgence latter in life. I've read to many to articles to count where couples say that after the kids leave their marriage is the best it's every been. You've survived to together, and have a bond created because you kept them damn kids alive long enough to leave the house. And now you can turn all your attention back to your mate.

Having children is a down rhythm. Instead of splitting your time between yourself and your wife, you now split it three ways. And in the case of little children; it's not proportionally equal because of all their needs. Now keep taking kids on, that's mean less and less time for the marriage. That was at least my case being a very hands on dad.

Marriage is a lot of work, its exhausting. It become even harder after she checked out emotionally. And your right, that's no excuse for the A.

I was more taken aback at what her view of love was. It's not unconditional. It's more of a "what have you done for me lately" type thing. I'm left wondering if she even knows how to love someone else.

So when careers and children put our marriage in that natural lull, because everything no longer centered around her needs, she checked out. I viewed the stale as a natural progression, that we're doing something hard together, that we would survive together, and come out better on the other end. I looked forward to a renaissance in the marriage when the kids got older. She viewed the lull as the marriage is stale. She didn't tough it out, she didn't stay the course with me. She used it as an opportunity to go get that new found high school love rush again. She's the center of the world again.

[This message edited by DefiledRage at 2:04 PM, June 21st (Friday)]


Me:35 WW:34 M:13yrs
3 young children
Dday 1 EA 7/8/2010
Dday 2 PA 3/1/2013 same OMM for 4yrs

Mister rabbit says, "A moment of realization is worth a thousand prayers."


Posts: 426 | Registered: May 2013 | From: Two blocks from south shit and west hell
Later
♂ Member
Member # 39375
Default  Posted: 2:08 PM, June 21st (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Sal, I wish you the best of luck. I understand what you mean about getting off the rollercoaster. I know it will be tough, and the future is uncertain, but I hope you find some peace.


Posts: 384 | Registered: May 2013
Betrayed444
♂ Member
Member # 38389
Default  Posted: 2:36 PM, June 21st (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Easy there...That isn't what Sal's WW said. These were Sal's observations. Sal also finished the quote with this:

I know. I was just being sarcastic.
If it was taken wrong I apologize. It just pisses me off when the WW throws shit out there and makes me pause or feel like I pushed her towards giving some dirty POS a BJ.
You ever figure that if she gave us more BJ's staleness would never become a problem. I would probably do all the fucking housework and write her letters everyday for that kind of incentive. Yeah it may be selfish but at least not with another woman.

Posts: 494 | Registered: Feb 2013
Sal1995
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Member # 39099
Default  Posted: 2:39 PM, June 21st (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

No big deal, Wonderboy. I love B444's straight talk.

Betrayal is an ugly thing, and there's simply no excuse for it. Especially when it turns out that you really love the person you're betraying. It kills the marriage, period. You can divorce, or you can decide to build a new marriage.

If you choose the latter, then you have to decide what kind of spouse you want to be going forward, whether you are the WS or the BS. Nothing I did justified my wife's affair. The flip side of that - nothing my wife has done justifies me continuing to make the same mistakes in my "second marriage". If you want to have a good marriage, you have to be a good spouse. You have no control over what she does, but plenty of control over what you do. If you're not willing to become a better spouse, then allow the death of the old marriage to be the death of the entire relationship. Otherwise, what's the point? What are you fighting for, what's the point of enduring all the grief and the hard work of R?

Prior to the affair, my wife and I gave each other our leftovers. It got stale. The marriage became child-centric, and when it wasn't, it was more husband-centric than it was wife-centric. That's just a fact.

My wife, after being the most unselfish person in the house (by far) for 16 years, became this selfish, cheating, party girl for almost a year. And the slow change into that person began about a year before that. Really shitty coping skills, definitely. But I can't pretend that it was all a bed of roses for her prior to the affair. I mean, she didn't deserve a husband who took her out to dinner at least once every weekend? That's why God invented babysitters.

Your wife had an affair. My wife had an affair. That's why we're here. And it really sucks. But if the marriage is going to be reborn, then at some point you have to let go of the image of your wife as this narcissistic monster and the image of yourself as this poor, put-upon martyr-like figure and figure out what the two of you need to do to make a good marriage.

Or, divorce her formerly cheating ass and find someone who'll be faithful to you the entire marriage. Either option is valid under these circumstances. But what I've come to realize is that the worst thing you can do is stay stuck in an emotional limbo. It's exhausting and counter-productive. Either get busy reconciling or get busy divorcing.

Sal: Think I follow with what your saying. My marriage had gone stale as well. A lot of times I would rather unwind with a game than going out to dinner. I know exactly when these type of things started happening. It started with the birth of our first child. And gradually increased with each one.

Exactly, DR. That's what happened in my marriage. It's not the kids fault, adults with healthy coping skills and boundaries should put the marriage first, get babysitters, and realize that the little darlings aren't going to play with knives or run out into the street if you're not hovering over them every second. But it's a trap that many of us fall into without even realizing what's happening.

ETA: "I was more taken aback at what her view of love was. It's not unconditional. It's more of a "what have you done for me lately" type thing. I'm left wondering if she even knows how to love someone else."

That's a great point, DR. But lately it has gotten me thinking: do any of us really love unconditionally? We love our children that way...maybe. But there's a selfish element to human love. Even loving parents tend to gravitate more towards a child who they relate to a little more than the others. There is a "favorite" in every family, or at least it appears that way to the ones who don't consider themselves to be the favorite. We tend to love people for what they give us, and how they make us feel.

If we truly loved our WWs unconditionally, then we'd never divorce one who expressed remorse, went NC, and worked on the marriage going forward. But for many, an affair is a dealbreaker regardless of what happens after D Day. Not saying that isn't an understandable position, but whatever else it might be, it's not "unconditional" love. It's love with one hell of a big condition attached.

BTW, I've also wondered if my WW really knew how to love someone else. I think she had too many walls up to really let me inside her heart, and it's related to some serious FOO issues. But to her credit she's tackling those issues head-on in IC and MC.

Later, thanks for the kind words bro.

[This message edited by Sal1995 at 3:03 PM, June 21st (Friday)]


Me-45
WW-42
DDay 2/17/13, 10 month PA/EA
Final NC late Feb. '13
M - 18 years, together 19+
4 children

Reconciled


Posts: 1028 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Texas
noescape
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Member # 34888
Default  Posted: 2:46 PM, June 21st (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

its always been

-she simply does not know how to be truly intimate and give herself fully to another

which leads to the rest above it...

But there has to be a cognitive process with that diminishes that love somewhere along the way.

compartmentalization explains it to a T.

So your a piece of shit, look in the mirror, learn, stop being of piece of shit.

Gold, pure gold. thanks for that :)

I however think that remorse is a built in human characteristic, it just that some people are too chicken shit to face it. So your a piece of shit, look in the mirror, learn, stop being of piece of shit. Low self esteem, and weak willed people can't do that.

I agree, let alone others, they cannot bear busting that image bubble they have of themselves.

WW has never had that. Its something I've noticed from day 1 (red flag ignored) and it has bothered me. I don't recall WW apologizing for anything now that I think about it. Never thought how important shame can be until the A.

Same here. Many a time I've noted how she never apologised for ANYTHING; even mistakes she admitted to. At best, she can muster up a single written line delivered days/hours later as a token apology (almost never verbally, and definitely NEVER immediately) - but nothing that would pass as a definite and immediate acknowledgement of someone elses pain and/or her shame for said injury or bad behaviour.

(humility?)

THATS it! Since.... ever (red flag), I have/had always complained about her pride - which she always denied. Pride being the opposite of humility; thats the one thing through pre-A and the rest of the M which I could never convince her that she had a major problem with - regardless of the many instances I demonstrated it to her. her retort (paraphrased); "I'm not arrogant or racist or prejudiced or loud-so how can I have pride....?"

"I guess I really never knew how much you loved me"

I heard exactly the same. She had minimised the hurt that her A's would have caused me so much that her statement was always "didnt think you'd love me so much" (blameshift anyone?)...

Stale enough that my wife of 16 years didn't feel loved enough to resist temptation.
(reply written before the rest caught on and sals subsequent post)

IMHO, thats false reasoning. you needn't become a product of her false construct. Granted, pre-A issues plagued every M, and every so often we do things that are not loving (the 50/50 rule). But "you not making her feel loved enough" being a source of temptation for the A is not true. As much as you need to put in effort into loving her, she has to put effort into 'being loved'. From what I know of the anatomy of the wayward; the process causes them to misinterpret and reinterpret anything approaching love/care into "its his duty/he hates me/who would love me/this is all fake" - i.e. becoming unloved regardless of what the BS is or isnt doing. I think what you see now of her effort is exactly the opposite of that (hopefully and I am happy for you for it); that the scales have fallen off and she's able to authentically see you/your love for what it is rather than the prism she once skewed it with.

From this point on R is focused on the wrong thing, and the WW has all the power (you better give me all the ‘intimacy’ (aka – whatever I want) or I will just have to have another A). None of their issues are resolved and the A is just another barricade preventing real intimacy inside of the M.

thats it nmp. tons of books, forums, counselling, etc... later - 3 years on and I can testify to this being the ONE major flaw in every infidelity recovery program/system/counseling out there. too much focus on the M, the M problems, on the 'unmet needs', the fucking incident 5 years ago when you said/did that shit when I needed you to .... BLAH... and almost NO FOCUS on "whats broken in the WS?" (let alone the farcical glossing over the A so we can get to the 'meat' ... i.e. the fuck ups of the BH in the pre-A M )

It's more of a "what have you done for me lately" type thing.

Isn't that such a sad way to love (and be loved?). I've seen it in my W and am not amazed at all that she's had no sustained relationships outside of her blood relatives. Even with her oldest and/or closest friends, its always a push/pull dynamic which burns hot and cold and seems almost adversarial at times. No wonder she has so much bottled up hatred/disrespect for me - what kind of chump would put up with such treatment (i.e. treat him like a chump); and hatred for her not being able to pull away sufficiently whenever it suits her; which has always been easy with everyone else in her life (including family).


Posts: 739 | Registered: Feb 2012
Betrayed444
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Member # 38389
Default  Posted: 3:11 PM, June 21st (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

No big deal, Wonderboy. I love B444's straight talk.

It's all love bro


Posts: 494 | Registered: Feb 2013
jjct
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Member # 17484
Default  Posted: 3:12 PM, June 21st (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

This is a good one from jack:
Her A was a flight from intimacy not a search for it.

Sal, hang in there man. I'm rooting for you.

As much as you need to put in effort into loving her, she has to put effort into 'being loved'.

good stuff.


Posts: 6012 | Registered: Dec 2007 | From: texas
SuperDuperWonderboy
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Member # 34716
Default  Posted: 3:20 PM, June 21st (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I can feel the love in here.

[This message edited by wonderboy at 3:21 PM, June 21st (Friday)]


My Friends call me Wonderboy--That's Mr. SuperduperWonderboy to you Tred.


Posts: 1267 | Registered: Feb 2012 | From: Everett
DefiledRage
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Member # 39292
Default  Posted: 4:14 PM, June 21st (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

do any of us really love unconditionally?

Infidelity is one hell of a big condition your right. I'd be a hypocrite if I didn't admit this A thing isn't making me re-evaluate just what unconditional is. Whether your religious or not, I think its smart to take into the various views on infidelity. I know of one religion that views it close to murder as far as the repentance process it takes to be forgiven. And I believe in a Catholicism its one of the only reasons to grant divorce. Please correct me if I'm not wrong on that though. So with infidelity I think we are looking at an extreme.

I view unconditional as more of the forgive the little, medium, and most of the major offenses. Everyone makes mistakes, everyone deserves forgiveness for most of those mistakes. And you should love them for their some of their personality traits, not be on a never-ending mission to change the person they are. FYI personality traits CAN NOT be substituted for major psychotic deficiencies in that statement.

The problem is the petty things that lead to the justifications. So because I don't compliment your shoes, or notice that you trimmed your hair by 1/2 inch, then I'm a horrible husband? Because I fart in public, scratch my balls, clip my toes on the couch in the living room, and can be emotionally unavailable at times, is not justification. Those are the things that should fall in to that unconditional, but just don't for my wife. Her love is based on how perfectly I fit her idealized husband.

Gotta tell ya SAL, love your perspective. My wife shows regret almost everyday, she's been trying really hard to go the extra mile for me. Get this...before I even get home from work she has been helping clean the kennel I keep my dog in. I know she's working her ass off to prove something to me right now. However my emotions still tend to run on me, your comments keep me grounded a lot though. You keep reminding me I should probably give her more credit than I do sometimes. Keep 'um coming!


Me:35 WW:34 M:13yrs
3 young children
Dday 1 EA 7/8/2010
Dday 2 PA 3/1/2013 same OMM for 4yrs

Mister rabbit says, "A moment of realization is worth a thousand prayers."


Posts: 426 | Registered: May 2013 | From: Two blocks from south shit and west hell
Sal1995
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Member # 39099
Default  Posted: 4:27 PM, June 21st (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

From what I know of the anatomy of the wayward; the process causes them to misinterpret and reinterpret anything approaching love/care into "its his duty/he hates me/who would love me/this is all fake" - i.e. becoming unloved regardless of what the BS is or isnt doing. I think what you see now of her effort is exactly the opposite of that (hopefully and I am happy for you for it); that the scales have fallen off and she's able to authentically see you/your love for what it is rather than the prism she once skewed it with.

Great observation, noescape. My understanding is the same. That's why I think counseling is a must for a WW. Fortunately mine started 4 days after D Day, and after a little over 4 months you can tell it's making an impact. Just yesterday she set up lunch with her father, and in a gentle way, told him how she felt abandoned by him after he left when she was just 12. They ended hugging and crying, and she got a heartfelt apology from him and a follow-up lunch date to continue the discussion. Her dad came clean to her about some of his issues, including PTSD suffered in Vietnam.

She realizes that she's been messed up for years now, and is tackling her issues head on. She discussed unresolved issues with her mother last week, and discovered that her mother was the victim of horrible sex abuse from a family member and a family friend when she was a kid. As far as we know, my MIL never shared that with anyone before. But it's pretty obvious that something was wrong with her. The wife told me that if I leave her and file for divorce, she still wants to be a better person and to never cheat on anyone ever again - preferably me, but a future BF/H if I can't forgive and R with her. It's not the type of person she wants to be anymore. You have to respect that. If that's not owning your shit, I don't know what is.

Because I fart in public, scratch my balls, clip my toes on the couch in the living room, and can be emotionally unavailable at times

Those are negatives? Huh...


Me-45
WW-42
DDay 2/17/13, 10 month PA/EA
Final NC late Feb. '13
M - 18 years, together 19+
4 children

Reconciled


Posts: 1028 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Texas
DefiledRage
♂ Member
Member # 39292
Default  Posted: 4:44 PM, June 21st (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

You ever figure that if she gave us more BJ's staleness would never become a problem.

If they only knew pre-A how easy it would have been. Think those honey-dos would have got done a lot quicker if I knew the Pot-O-BlowJobs was at the end of the rainbow. Now they ruined that avenue too.

[This message edited by DefiledRage at 4:45 PM, June 21st (Friday)]


Me:35 WW:34 M:13yrs
3 young children
Dday 1 EA 7/8/2010
Dday 2 PA 3/1/2013 same OMM for 4yrs

Mister rabbit says, "A moment of realization is worth a thousand prayers."


Posts: 426 | Registered: May 2013 | From: Two blocks from south shit and west hell
Betrayed444
♂ Member
Member # 38389
Default  Posted: 5:37 PM, June 21st (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Truth
Men are so easy
While women desire clothes, attention, being spoiled. Etc
The above would have brought them plenty of that.
Mine required 45 bucks from a POS for a BJ to throw it all away

Posts: 494 | Registered: Feb 2013
Later
♂ Member
Member # 39375
Default  Posted: 8:00 PM, June 21st (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Would it be wrong of me to have an affair solely for the purpose of being able to post in the mad hatters thread?

Posts: 384 | Registered: May 2013
Betrayed444
♂ Member
Member # 38389
Default  Posted: 8:14 PM, June 21st (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Ha!
Why not. You can use all your WW's justifications.

Posts: 494 | Registered: Feb 2013
Sal1995
♂ Member
Member # 39099
Default  Posted: 8:53 PM, June 21st (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Later, you need at least one more justification. Here's a few tried and true reasons, at least when used by WWs:

"My needs weren't getting met"

"I thought our marriage was over"

"He listened to me"

"He told me I was pretty"

"He was persistent"

Just substitute words like "she" and "handsome" where appropriate, and you're all set.


Me-45
WW-42
DDay 2/17/13, 10 month PA/EA
Final NC late Feb. '13
M - 18 years, together 19+
4 children

Reconciled


Posts: 1028 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Texas
Betrayed444
♂ Member
Member # 38389
Default  Posted: 9:30 PM, June 21st (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage


Wow

Posts: 494 | Registered: Feb 2013
Betrayed444
♂ Member
Member # 38389
Default  Posted: 9:39 PM, June 21st (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Another cool one

RANGER WIFE CREED:


Recognizing that I accept the life of a Ranger's Wife, fully knowing the hardships ahead of me, I will always strive to uphold the honor, the loyalty, and the trust of my husband, the Ranger!


Acknowledging that a Ranger Wife is a more elite wife who stands behind her Ranger, wherever he may be, I accept the fact that as a Ranger Wife, my husband expects me to encourage and stand behind him always!


Never shall I fail my Ranger. I will always keep myself strong, brave, and faithful. I will shoulder more than my share of the responsibility, whatever it may be, one hundred percent and then some!


Gallantly will I show the world that I am a specially selected woman. My courtesy to my husband, neatness of appearance, and care of our family shall set the example for future wives to follow!


Energetically will I meet the demands of my Ranger. I shall stand by my man in peacetime and in war, knowing HE IS THE SUPERIOR SOLDIER. Never will I leave my Ranger for another, and under NO circumstances will I embarrass him!


Readily will I display the intestinal fortitude required to let my Ranger go, knowing he may never return to me– his Ranger Wife!!


Willingly will I let him go, not knowing where or for how long he will be gone, always hoping, praying and believing for his safe return and the safe return of his comrades!


Intensely will I wait for his return, anticipating the gallantry and honor– my Ranger, a hero, standing beside with pride and passion!


Forgoing all others needs except for those of my Ranger, knowing one day he will forgo all others for me– his Wife!


Enthusiastically will I carry on my daily routine, even when he's away, never forgetting he left behind his strength, his honor, his heart, his Ranger wife!!


Posts: 494 | Registered: Feb 2013
Tred
♂ Member
Member # 34086
Default  Posted: 5:24 AM, June 22nd (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Damn, all the love and wisdom in here almost brought a tear to my eye. Almost.

Hard to keep up with you guys, but I'm in the middle of a three day golf comp at the club...free beers and two rounds of golf for the past two days is not conducive to posting. Or anything else if I want to be honest with myself.

Stay thirsty mates!


Married: 16 years (14 @JFO)
D-Day: 11/09/11
"Ohhhhh...shut up Tred!" - NOT the official SI motto (DS)

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