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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: Betrayed Men - Part 11
Tred
♂ Member
Member # 34086
Default  Posted: 6:33 PM, June 24th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

PR,

Sounds like you had an epiphany brother! Just remember - you can't make them happy, that's up to them. So she won't go NC? There's a dude named Bigger who posts down in JFO all the time - a lot of wisdom. One of the things he says a lot (paraphrasing here) is that the worst thing that can happen is not that you end up in divorce, but that you are the third person in your marriage. That your wife is still fucking other men. I think that's pretty spot on. I would tell her that she doesn't have to go NC. But she can't have contact with them and remain my wife - end of story. Game over. Put in another quarter. Respect yourself, because she sure as shit doesn't right now. Not saying that can't change, but it won't as long as she maintains contact with the POSER's(tm). It sounds like you are doing ok. Keep posting, and read up on the 180 in the healing library if you haven't. Detach mate. In order to save your marriage you have to be willing to lose it.

Thanks again for all the condolences mates, and those that PM'd me who don't meet the minimum requirements for this thread. You know who you are .


Married: 16 years (14 @JFO)
D-Day: 11/09/11
"Ohhhhh...shut up Tred!" - NOT the official SI motto (DS)

Posts: 3306 | Registered: Dec 2011
Ascendant
♂ Member
Member # 38303
Default  Posted: 7:45 PM, June 24th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

She may be a wayward but she's not that crazy.
Some hottie would have taken you away from her by now if she bought you that. Proof that she still wants you!

Hahahahah. And the battle rages on...


“Anyone who has a continuous smile on his face conceals a toughness that is almost frightening.”

Posts: 1618 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Illinois
Betrayed444
♂ Member
Member # 38389
Default  Posted: 10:12 PM, June 24th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Ok here's more wayward gold.
Mine just completed domestic violence counseling at the women's shelter. We're sitting on the porch and looks at me like she had an epiphany and says
" why would they send me there for counseling when it's for abuse victims? You were the victim"
I'm taken aback and respond your just now thinking that? Everyone has thought that. Your like the wolf amongst sheep.
No one asked how I was. I was the victim on the two domestic incident reports.
But a male couldn't possibly be the victim. I had injuries. I never fought back. I allowed her to take her aggression out on me. I allowed her to punch, kick and bite me. The PD photographed and documented it. I video taped it but somehow there is no mechanism in place for males.
I wasn't hurt. I took it but these classes were geared to assist her and she never brought it up.
I just said it was blatant discrimination. Society doesn't deal with our gender. Somehow it was my fault or I deserved it.

Posts: 494 | Registered: Feb 2013
aesir
♂ Member
Member # 17210
Default  Posted: 2:32 AM, June 25th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Getting old blows!

But it does beat the alternatives.
Also, old or not, at least it's getting blows.


Your mileage may vary... in accordance with the prophecy.

Do not back up. Severe tire damage.


Posts: 14924 | Registered: Nov 2007 | From: Winnipeg
aesir
♂ Member
Member # 17210
Default  Posted: 3:39 AM, June 25th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Just another random thought. Regarding POSER. As it stands now, the acronym does have an ethnicity associated. How does everyone feel about Ensign Ricky. It is easier to remember, has an immature implication, and it is the actual name of the Red Shirt on Family Guy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtDqsmbyo1M


Your mileage may vary... in accordance with the prophecy.

Do not back up. Severe tire damage.


Posts: 14924 | Registered: Nov 2007 | From: Winnipeg
Tred
♂ Member
Member # 34086
Default  Posted: 4:06 AM, June 25th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Works for me Aesir. Or Romeo . Hell, could stand for Ensign Random, since the AP could of been anyone, right?

BTW, I worked with a real life ER - he was our 2nd division officer on my second ship. Fresh out of UCLA and OCS. A real piece of work. We didn't get along. I could tell stories...but I'll save it for OBX.


Married: 16 years (14 @JFO)
D-Day: 11/09/11
"Ohhhhh...shut up Tred!" - NOT the official SI motto (DS)

Posts: 3306 | Registered: Dec 2011
aesir
♂ Member
Member # 17210
Default  Posted: 4:10 AM, June 25th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Good points Tred, especially the Ensign Random one, but I am rather fond of that Star Trek clip from Family Guy.


WILLIAM SHATNER
Now men, we are about to go on a very dangerous mission. It is highly likely that one of you will die. The crew that will go with me are Spock, McCoy and Ensign Ricky.

ENSIGN RICKY
Aw crap.

[This message edited by aesir at 4:11 AM, June 25th (Tuesday)]


Your mileage may vary... in accordance with the prophecy.

Do not back up. Severe tire damage.


Posts: 14924 | Registered: Nov 2007 | From: Winnipeg
Ascendant
♂ Member
Member # 38303
Default  Posted: 9:23 AM, June 25th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I love that 'Family Guy' clip as well. I love 'Family Guy' though it tends to be hit or miss, but the stuff that lands is often ridiculously hilarious.

My wife just pointed out that today is the anniversary of when we started dating 7 years ago. I had sort of forgotten...not the date itself mind you, just the fact that it was coming up. We pretty much stopped celebrating it once we were wed, outside of a passing reference or maybe a lunch date. It's weird, but for me this anniversary still has some emotional resonance, in a way that I don't think that my upcoming wedding anniversary will any longer. Perhaps because I still look back fondly at the day she asked me to be her boyfriend officially, and there were no (spoken) vows to be broken, etc.

I'be been thinking alot about the 'perfect storm' idea....and while I was digging through some old posts, I found an old WAL post that summed it up so perfectly, the thoughts and feelings about the subject. I don't usually re-post other people's whole posts here, but I'm going to do so anyway so that people don't have to click on a link and dig through the thread. Hopefully this provokes some thoughts, as I'd like to discuss.

I would argue that it is almost essential that a WS come to the point of accepting and fully grasping the relationship-ness of the adulterous affair (where we're obviously excepting situations like drunken ONS's with strangers picked up at local bars). It's important information for the WS to have about themselves that they are fully willing to engage in extra-marital relationships and to entertain the notion of biasing one relationship for another through their choices, while expecting the marriage to continue as previously scripted.
In other words, if you're going to be a user, you should accept about yourself that you are the sort of person who can survive and thrive as a user -- who is willing to give less than their best effort to not just one primary relationship, but two or more in order to get what you want, even and especially at the expense of others. (This is not to say that it has to be done vindictively or even consciously -- I suspect that it rarely is, and is more often a product of deep hurts and unhealed wounds stemming all the way back to childhood, but those patterns of dealing with hurt by giving less and self-protecting need to be acknowledged and accepted before they can be addressed.)

Too often, it seems to me that by dismissing affairs as fantasy or otherwise not-real, with fully attendant emotions, desires, hopes, dreams, passions, etc., it's entirely too easy for the WS to let themselves off the hook -- to start speaking in the language of mistakes and misguided coping mechanisms rather than grasping the fundamental issues that led them to believe it is acceptable to expect fidelity (sexual, emotional and commitment) of others, while offering something less in return. It gives way to the "perfect storm" mentality where, if not for this or that set of circumstances, this would never have happened. The perfect storm analogy is fundamentally flawed to me for that reason. If the "perfect storm" leads to a ONS, that's one thing. If it opens the floodgates to months or years of deception, lies, blameshifting, recrimination, resentment, acting out, blah, blah, blah...that's not a perfect storm. That's a threshold event that allowed the individual to finally give in to the sorts of urges and insecurities that have been simmering under a veneer of decency for ages. It's an excuse to do what one has always wanted to do on some level, but couldn't justify under "ordinary" circumstances.

That someone is willing to engage in multiple romantic relationships simultaneously and treat the other participants in those relationships as props for their pleasure rather than fully formed and actualized human beings is important information for someone to possess about themselves. I don't think you can heal or recover from a wayward mentality without it. It's important to know that you're the sort of person who is willing to emotionally, mentally and psychologically abuse both the AP and the betrayed spouse in order to manipulate them into compliance with what you want out of your life. As many of our wise and recovering WS's have pointed out over the years, "you can't heal it if you won't feel it."

A mistake non-relationship where you carried around a self-deceiving fantasy in your own head that had no substantive reality is too easy to dismiss under the heading of "I was confused/wrong/not seeing clearly", which must then only be addressed by making a few amends and determining to see more correctly going forward. It suggests that if you just pay attention to the truth, have a come-to-Jesus moment and endeavor to stay grounded in world of light and honesty, you'll be okay. The affair was just an aberration because you weren't minding your p's and q's correctly. You got sidetracked, a victim of circumstances, perfect storms, some stinkin' thinkin', and whatever other mitigating factors one wants to throw into the pot.

(I can be tempted by that scenario to explain affairs of extremely short duration -- say, less than six weeks -- as instances of letting stupidity take over otherwise rational processing, but once it gets beyond that and is established as a pattern of behavior, then we're talking about hitting one's stride and thriving in a dynamic where information is hidden across the board, both from spouse and AP, to maintain a desired equilibrium. It's about reveling in the power one holds over others through deception. There will be objections, of course, that most people in affairs report that they actually feel like they're flying apart at the seams, spinning out of control, consumed by guilt, etc, when they're in between sessions of rubbing sexy bits together. In my mind, the deception and manipulation to keep the secret life going -- or even to keep it hidden -- is still about power. It's about control, keeping people in the dark, keeping them in a "less-than-human" category where they don't deserve to have their own thoughts and fully informed choices, but rather only the insights that you allow them to have -- props in the play of your life, rather than the stars of their own life's play. I don't think it's possible to engage in infidelity without dehumanizing the spouse or the AP. We all know too well -- even before circumstances brought us here -- that most affairs end badly. They end in pain and heartache. Whenever we make the choice to proceed with something that we know will hurt others, we are on some level deeming their hurt as less "real", less human than our desire for passion. Their hurt is an acceptable cost for our behavior and the choices we want to make. That's the first step to dehumanizing someone -- delegitimizing their experience as an emotional creature -- with the last step being the one where you convince yourself that not only does their emotional experience not matter, but they deserve what's being done to them and shouldn't have full access to the sorts of information that would allow them to make a free choice about not experiencing it any longer.)

Good shit, no?

Busy day for this guy. Job interview in the afternoon, followed up with the first meeting for an elected office I was recently appointed to. Life moves fast.

[This message edited by FacePunched at 9:30 AM, June 25th (Tuesday)]


“Anyone who has a continuous smile on his face conceals a toughness that is almost frightening.”

Posts: 1618 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Illinois
atsenaotie
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Member # 27650
Default  Posted: 9:51 AM, June 25th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Their hurt is an acceptable cost for our behavior and the choices we want to make.

Many good lines in FP's quote from WAL, but this line of the WS's balancing (even if unconsciously) of needs versus damage is the one that resonated for me.

FWW did not like my friends, took steps to sabotage the relationships. Resulting in her gaining control over me (my time) and me left isolated to work and home life.

FWW finds that country living in an antique home is not just like the magazine, so she complains how bad her life is and berates me for everything wrong with the house. Result, I buy into her crap and feel like an incompetent looser.

FWW felt she deserved a "fling" so she had a few, for years. Result, I am marginalized and become a 1-person M.

FWW was upset feeling abandoned and embarrassed that I was loud, so she drives off leaving me in a hotel across the state. Result, I get to ask co-workers for a ride home and explain FWW leaving me in hotel.

No empathy, no concern about me, her needs get met, my needs be damned. Then, later, some reaching out to make things better, until the next time. This, btw, is at least an improvement. Prior to, and for a year after, dday she would just crap on me, move on, and then demand to know why I was such a stinking mess.


LTA BS 53
FWW 60
M 1990, dday 10-5-09
Reconciled

Posts: 3968 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: FL
Betrayed444
♂ Member
Member # 38389
Default  Posted: 10:43 AM, June 25th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Your right
My WW embarked on a smear campaign behind my back.
While I was working my ass off. Working OT. Buying her expensive gifts etc she was telling people how nasty I was. She got into a vicious fight with my family causing me to defend WW and not speak to them. She caused a rift between me and my daughter. People slowly stopped coming over.
This is a classic case of abuse. Isolation from a persons social support group of friends and family. Knowing I couldn't or wouldn't talk to them gave her more control of me and my time plus set her up as the good guy no matter what she did. She knew I really couldn't turn anywhere and as a dummy I stood up for her.
I mean I knew she had a pattern of losing jobs and gaining short term superficial friendships. I used to guess how long they would last. I thought it was kind of funny.

I had a little trigger two days ago while cleaning the house. I found a card I bought WW on oct 10, 2012
It was fancy, came with a necklace that said "love"
Inside it said just because I love you.
Her affair was 10/20/2012
I think sooner now because she fucked up the timeline.
Anyway I showed her the card and said I was tossing it. She said not to. She said that date was her deceased moms birthday. I didn't know. Now I recollect that I got her the card to support her on that rough day. To show her I cared.
Remember, on dday she said I didn't love her. I never made her feel better about her mom
I knew she rewrote that. She was wrong.
That card was the smoking gun.
Beautiful card. Beautiful sentiment. That is me.
It's so easy to hear them blame us for so many things and paint us so badly that a portion of us starts to believe that. It's like brain washing.
I tossed that card because she tossed me. She tossed the card already
9 months ago.

[This message edited by Betrayed444 at 10:45 AM, June 25th (Tuesday)]


Posts: 494 | Registered: Feb 2013
Mikey56
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Member # 38063
Default  Posted: 10:51 AM, June 25th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

FP,

Thank for reposting WAL's post above. I added it to my SI POSTS folder to reread later. Some really good stuff in there.

Like this:

In other words, if you're going to be a user, you should accept about yourself that you are the sort of person who can survive and thrive as a user -- who is willing to give less than their best effort to not just one primary relationship, but two or more in order to get what you want, even and especially at the expense of others

In my situation, I can't figure out why my WS tried to keep both me and the OM. She wasn't fully committed to either relationship and it hurt all three of us. It was a clusterfuck.

Now she SEEMS committed to me, but I just don't trust her.

I guess that's why I'm here....

Peace


Posts: 108 | Registered: Jan 2013
Ascendant
♂ Member
Member # 38303
Default  Posted: 11:05 AM, June 25th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Mikey-
I'm just relieved to know I'm not the only one with a folder like that. Whew!


“Anyone who has a continuous smile on his face conceals a toughness that is almost frightening.”

Posts: 1618 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Illinois
thinkingclear
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Member # 38884
Default  Posted: 11:57 AM, June 25th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

those patterns of dealing with hurt by giving less and self-protecting need to be acknowledged and accepted before they can be addressed

I'm struggling today. Actually the last couple of days. I'm just tired of the whole thing. It takes so much effort and I'm getting worn out. I was looking forward to our MC session tonight, but now I'm less enthusiastic.

I struggle with my own fears and how I deal with hurt. I think deep down I have a fear of being alone. My childhood was not all that traumatic but my parents never modeled a romantic relationship. My mom lost her mother when she was a little girl and has never been truly 'loving' to anyone. My folks are together but sleep in separate rooms. I can see the pain and loneliness in my dad and although I have never tried to take sides, I just see a man who has tried to do the right thing but is miserable in doing so. I have held my mom responsible to a degree, but I also know my dad had choices as well.

Being alone is really kind of an irrational fear. I know I could find someone else, but it still stinks to feel unwanted or unimportant. Anyway, I am struggling because it is my tendency to avoid discussing 'negative' emotions and it has been especially difficult to discuss with my WW. She has never seemed to care how I was feeling and proved how little she cared during her A. She also isn't the least bit receptive to criticism and I hate to tell her that I have far more criticisms than compliments thus far in our marriage. This 'dance' of sorts has always existed in our marriage, but I just didn't recognize it as such.

She has been is such a good mood lately and has really been putting in 'effort'. She is still using her 'coping mechanisms' such as compartmentalization to keep her conscience clean. She does it because that is what she knows. It keeps her feeling safe and she thinks that 'effort' will be enough to 'make me happy'. Or least it should be according to her.

I know what I want and need and it isn't a WW that is rug sweeping. I'm hoping that I can clearly state some things tonight. I cannot suppress my feelings any longer. I cannot follow in my dad's footsteps. I don't think I'm being unreasonable, but it is clear to me that my WW doesn't know how to connect on deep level. She has always had a defensive stance. She learned as a teenager that you can't trust anyone, not even your own mom. She was also taught that 'everything' is forgivable.

I know I'm rambling. WALs quote about giving less and self-protection sums up my WW pretty darn well. I guess I'm seeing some of that in myself as well and I don't like it. I deserve better. We all do. Just some thoughts as I mentally prepare for this evening.

[This message edited by thinkingclear at 12:00 PM, June 25th (Tuesday)]


BS - Me
WW - Her
10 month EA/PA

Posts: 211 | Registered: Apr 2013
Tred
♂ Member
Member # 34086
Default  Posted: 12:47 PM, June 25th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thinking,

Besides MC, are you in IC?


Married: 16 years (14 @JFO)
D-Day: 11/09/11
"Ohhhhh...shut up Tred!" - NOT the official SI motto (DS)

Posts: 3306 | Registered: Dec 2011
thinkingclear
♂ Member
Member # 38884
Default  Posted: 1:08 PM, June 25th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hmmm. Interesting question.

Yes I am. I have been going weekly since February. That is when she last broke NC and I realized how stupid I was behaving reacting to her stupid. If you know what I mean.


BS - Me
WW - Her
10 month EA/PA

Posts: 211 | Registered: Apr 2013
Later
♂ Member
Member # 39375
Default  Posted: 2:26 PM, June 25th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I am thinking of meeting with OM. Not to raise hell, but since I may be single soon and have not dated in a while I am going to see if he has any tips on picking up women in the workplace.

Posts: 384 | Registered: May 2013
toomanyregrets
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Member # 37740
Default  Posted: 3:13 PM, June 25th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Like I told my fWW, you can date all the men you want, but not while your married to me.


BH - 63
fWW - 59

"Affairs are not mistakes, they are a series of deliberate choices." - CrappyLife


Posts: 430 | Registered: Dec 2012 | From: Upstate NY
Sal1995
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Member # 39099
Default  Posted: 3:32 PM, June 25th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I am thinking of meeting with OM. Not to raise hell, but since I may be single soon and have not dated in a while I am going to see if he has any tips on picking up women in the workplace.

Later, you should have no problem, the stories on this site give you all the guidance needed. Choose a married woman and flirt with her. Tell her she's hot and that if you were her man, you'd never let her out of your sight. If she is middle-aged, has children, and self-esteem /FOO issues, this technique is really effective. Listen to her, nodding thoughtfully throughout. Tell her that she seems to really "get" you and that you two are soulmates. Just a couple of star-crossed lovers. Be persistent. Then after she gives in, treat her like your personal porn star as long as you can while another man supports her. Then when the affair is discovered, drop her like a hot potato and move on to the next one.

Nah, I'm not cynical.

Edited to address nomore's post: my wife got similar lines, while I was home babysitting our twins thinking I was doing her a big favor by letting her dance with the girls and unwind a bit. She apparently bought that b.s., because here I am. No good deed goes unpunished.

[This message edited by Sal1995 at 4:27 PM, June 25th (Tuesday)]


Me-45
WW-42
DDay 2/17/13, 10 month PA/EA
Final NC late Feb. '13
M - 18 years, together 19+
4 children

Reconciled


Posts: 1035 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Texas
nomoreplease
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Member # 32755
Default  Posted: 4:12 PM, June 25th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Tell her she's hot and that if you were her man, you'd never let her out of your sight.
Sadly, this is so true.

As part of our attempt at R, my STBXWW and I were going to relocate for a ‘fresh start’. She got a job in the new location; I was getting our house ready to sell while I looked for a new job out there. She started to go to the bars (major issue) in the new location and some random douche told her

If I had a wife like you, I would’ve moved out here already.
Later she told me about it (of course I had to basically drag it out of her), and I knew our R attempt was pointless because I could tell she completely believed it. She bought it hook, line, and sinker and couldn’t see it for the line that it was. She couldn’t see what I was doing was what a real man does. This was honestly one of the last conversations we had.


'one walks away saying "I fought to save God's ideal," and the other must always admit, "I fought to destroy God's ideal!"'

Posts: 343 | Registered: Jul 2011
atsenaotie
♂ Member
Member # 27650
Default  Posted: 5:08 PM, June 25th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

B444,

Your story about the card is exactly how I began to find reality and set aside FWW's "story" of our M. As I processed her complaints and looked back in our history there were many instances of my trying to affirm and love her. Couple that with her always replying she was "fine" when I asked what was wrong, her ignoring what I said when I took the risk and told her how I felt and what I wanted, I take very little responsibility for the sad state of our M. Her rolling her eyes when I said I wanted to feel loved, to be held and touched was not me being over-sexed, it was her rejecting an intimate relationship. Four different MCs in our M, we always quit going when they would start to focus on her behavior and not blame me.

The only thing I did wrong was not follow through with a D three years into the M.


LTA BS 53
FWW 60
M 1990, dday 10-5-09
Reconciled

Posts: 3968 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: FL
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