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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: Betrayed Men - Part 11
Later
♂ Member
Member # 39375
Default  Posted: 8:20 AM, July 8th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

TC, I wish I could offer something to help. Instead, all I can really say is, "me too."

One thing I know is that no matter how many times I feel I am raging, or how I express my rage, the underlying facts of the A are still there.

I find myself caring less and less about her "excuses." They are fading into a grey area.

I am just tired of it all.

Hope that helps!

Seriously, I am really sorry not to be able to offer something positive - it's just where I am. It was all so senseless. So much destruction and pain for nothing.


Posts: 384 | Registered: May 2013
Ascendant
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Member # 38303
Default  Posted: 8:40 AM, July 8th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I find myself caring less and less about her "excuses." They are fading into a grey area.

I am just tired of it all.


This, times a thousand. I'm getting to the point of not giving a shit about FOO issues. My wife was reading the first couple chapters of Love Languages, and she was like "This explains a lot." Yeah, I cared a ton about your childhood issues BEFORE the A. Now? Not so much.


“Anyone who has a continuous smile on his face conceals a toughness that is almost frightening.”

Posts: 1604 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Illinois
Betrayed444
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Member # 38389
Default  Posted: 8:53 AM, July 8th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

There is also a part of my anger that is self directed. I'm angry with myself for wanting to fight so hard for a M that has obviously meant so very little to my WW. I'm angry that I've allowed myself to put up with this crap for so long.

TC
I believe this is it. You are angry at yourself for accepting this. Lets face it. If this never happened to us but we heard a Friend or acquaintance relating this situation happening to them we wouldn't accept it. We would right away think that we would be gone. Trying to fix my marriage because of this goes against my core values. My self respect and everything I had believed in. My WW threw our marriage away. Was giving herself, her emotions, and her time to someone else. She endangered me and my children. I could have caught an std or ended up in jail. Shit, they plotted against me. Hid from me. Now I'm supposed to think she's head over heels for me again? Especially when I am upset with her all of the time. There is really no positive mirroring. It is a roller coasterof emotions and triggers. We can be good for a few days and think we're going along fine and then the feelings of betrayal start to kick back in. Or she does something really fucking annoying.
My WW sucks at house work. Almost to a degree where it's passive aggressive and I think where's the pride? I work every day. I put myself in harms way. She does nothing.
Then they say they don't want to put up with our anger. When I question my WW she compared it to being water boarded. Lets make no mistake. The thought of my WW sucking someone else's dick is a lot worse that her being questioned about it. It's called owning up for your actions. For every action there is a reaction. You liked his dick you better be able to articulate why. Sorry if your uncomfortable about it honey. You should have left. Nobody has you chained to the wall.
We're angry because they still think we're weak. That they still think they can gas light us some more. They think they can ride us out. Mine does. It's bullshit.
We're angry because they don't respond as normal people would. They don't care. They don't care about how we feel but we should care about them. They say WE are pushing them away by harassing them with questions about their betrayal.

[This message edited by Betrayed444 at 8:56 AM, July 8th (Monday)]


Posts: 494 | Registered: Feb 2013
thinkingclear
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Default  Posted: 9:45 AM, July 8th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I am just tired of it all.

Yeah, I cared a ton about your childhood issues BEFORE the A. Now? Not so much.

Exactly. I'm tired of dealing with it all and could care less about the 'cause' or the 'whys' except that I need her to understand for herself. I'm angry that this whole thing has occupied so much of my time and energy.
Trying to fix my marriage because of this goes against my core values.

This is one of the questions that I have been struggling with myself. It fuels my anger. I'm trying to understand why this HASN'T been a deal-breaker for me. Or maybe my anger signifies it is more of a deal-breaker than what I've been able to acknowledge or accept. Or maybe my anger is just 'normal'.

I've read so many of the usual suspect type of books over the last year. Stuff like the 'Love Languages' doesn't hit home to me now. As FP stated those are things that are good to know before infidelity but don't have a lot of weight after an A. To me it is pointing to a very basic requirement of any of my relationships (personal or professional): respect. I cannot describe ANY of the even remotely important relationships in my life that don't at the very core have a high degree of respect as a foundation. My colleges, attorneys, accountants, mechanics, electricians, parents and friends all have this one requirement of respect. No matter how hard I try I cannot even start to respect my WW yet. I know she sure doesn't respect me. It, thus far, has been a major stumbling block for me.


[This message edited by thinkingclear at 9:56 AM, July 8th (Monday)]


BS - Me
WW - Her
10 month EA/PA

Posts: 211 | Registered: Apr 2013
Later
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Member # 39375
Default  Posted: 9:59 AM, July 8th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Or maybe my anger signifies it is more of a deal-breaker than what I've been able to acknowledge or accept.

I think for me this is it, or at least part of it. I have an extremely difficult time imagining being married, let alone happily married, a year from now.

Having said that, even if I am divorced a year from now I am still going to be pissed --as a family is going to have been needlessly blown the fuck up.

I guess I am pissed at myself for not recognizing before just how fucking stupid she can be. She needed someone to sit her down and explain how she was fucking up the M long before the A. (Actually I tried, she is just too fucking hard headed to listen).


Posts: 384 | Registered: May 2013
Betrayed444
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Default  Posted: 10:00 AM, July 8th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

This is one of the questions that I have been struggling with myself. It fuels my anger. I'm trying to understand why this HASN'T been a deal-breaker for me. Or maybe my anger signifies it is more of a deal-breaker than what I've been able to acknowledge or accept. Or maybe my anger is just 'normal'.

Exactly!
It should be a deal breaker. I feel like I'm gas lighting myself. I'm the biggest ally she has. There is no respect. She said she didn't like me for whatever selfish stupid reasons she had to engage OM and lose her boundaries. Or she had been doing it for so long she got sloppy. For better or worse she had her reasons all lined up. She was prepared to get caught and was so narcissic she probably thought she could blame shift out of it.
My anger stems from the betrayal, utter lack of respect, being played as a fool, being emotionally abused, being abandoned along with my children. Being lied to. And now being accused of being too angry at her. My anger is that I should have detached and D'd right away and avoided her whole game.
I should never have played
I should never have participated in this dance
The push/pull dynamics
The roller coaster
I should never have morphed into an angry guy, controlling, jealous husband.
I TURNED INTO THE GUY SHE SAID I WAS
WTF
I think WW has been the puppet master this whole time.
If you think you shouldn't be angry. If she convinced you of that then your fucked.
Just my opinion.

Posts: 494 | Registered: Feb 2013
thinkingclear
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Default  Posted: 10:25 AM, July 8th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Having said that, even if I am divorced a year from now I am still going to be pissed --as a family is going to have been needlessly blown the fuck up.

I agree to a point. I would be angry that the family would be broken up, but I don't think I'd be as angry overall. I would know that I had done EVERYTHING I could have done to R. It would all be on her. I would have to do the best with what I have to work with. Not being around her and having to try to maintain a relationship with her (at least not a romantic one) would take away a ton of my anger. I feel at peace enough to know that I could move on and be happy without her in my life. I think a 19yo is out of the question, but someone else could be interesting at some point.


I guess I am pissed at myself for not recognizing before just how fucking stupid she can be. She needed someone to sit her down and explain how she was fucking up the M long before the A. (Actually I tried, she is just too fucking hard headed to listen).

I can understand how you feel. I know you know already that it wasn't your fault and that there is nothing you could have done to prevent this whole toxic mess. It took me awhile to actually 'forgive' myself and put all of the blame back where it belongs with my WW. My anger currently has more to do with what she did to screw things up so badly and how I've dealt with things since D-day.
If you think you shouldn't be angry. If she convinced you of that then your fucked.

Nope. I tried for a long time to just 'get along' or 'not rock the boat'. I didn't feel like I could 'own' my anger. It has to do with my own childhood issues. I've overcome this to a great degree. I feel perfectly justified in being angry. I'm just trying to understand what it is trying to tell me: be more assertive, be more vigilant, be less trusting, be less naive, run away as fast as I can or something else that I haven't gotten to yet. I've just been trying to get your guys' perspective on how you've handled it or learned from it. What is that you did right or wrong and what would you pass on to me or anyone else for that matter?

[This message edited by thinkingclear at 10:46 AM, July 8th (Monday)]


BS - Me
WW - Her
10 month EA/PA

Posts: 211 | Registered: Apr 2013
Sal1995
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Member # 39099
Default  Posted: 10:46 AM, July 8th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Trying to fix my marriage because of this goes against my core values.

This is one of the questions that I have been struggling with myself. It fuels my anger. I'm trying to understand why this HASN'T been a deal-breaker for me.

B444, TC: Maybe forgiveness is also a core value of yours. And preserving an intact home for your children is another. And right now those values are in conflict with the no-tolerance-for-infidelity core value. Hence the (understandable) angst.


Me-45
WW-42
DDay 2/17/13, 10 month PA/EA
Final NC late Feb. '13
M - 18 years, together 19+
4 children

Reconciled


Posts: 1028 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Texas
Later
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Member # 39375
Default  Posted: 10:47 AM, July 8th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I agree to a point. I would be angry that the family would be broken up, but I don't think I'd be as angry overall. I would know that I had done EVERYTHING I could have done to R. It would all be on her. I would have to do the best with what I have to work with. Not being around her and having to try to maintain a relationship with her (at least not a romantic one) would take away a ton of my anger. I feel at peace enough to know that I could move on and be happy without her in my life. I think a 19yo is out of the question, but someone else could be interesting at some point.

Honestly, I don't know that I feel that I have to give R every chance in order to feel like I have done what I need to for the kids. Before the A, I put up with a lot -- mainly because I was putting the kids' interest first.

That didn't work out so well.


Posts: 384 | Registered: May 2013
thinkingclear
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Default  Posted: 10:47 AM, July 8th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Maybe forgiveness is also a core value of yours. And preserving an intact home for your children is another. And right now those values are in conflict with the no-tolerance-for-infidelity core value. Hence the (understandable) angst.

Well stated and so true.

Honestly, I don't know that I feel that I have to give R every chance in order to feel like I have done what I need to for the kids. Before the A, I put up with a lot -- mainly because I was putting the kids' interest first.

That didn't work out so well.


Projecting my own feelings. Sorry.

It goes back to ...

I'm angry with myself for wanting to fight so hard for a M that has obviously meant so very little to my WW. I'm angry that I've allowed myself to put up with this crap for so long.

[This message edited by thinkingclear at 10:56 AM, July 8th (Monday)]


BS - Me
WW - Her
10 month EA/PA

Posts: 211 | Registered: Apr 2013
Later
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Member # 39375
Default  Posted: 10:54 AM, July 8th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

No need to be sorry, I am just thinking out loud really.


Posts: 384 | Registered: May 2013
damaged71
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Default  Posted: 4:26 PM, July 8th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

First time posting here...

TC, for me the anger subsided somewhat when I realized that in no way shape or form would there be "justice" for what had happened. There just isn't any justice for the BS. There is no way we can ever get even, ever. What we wanted more than anything was to stay married to a faithful spouse. Nothing gets that back or makes it right again. Now you just have what you have and that's it.

I don't get angry as much but I still get angry. I think the trick is getting to a "happy place" with your spouse before indifference sets in. On a long enough timeline indifference will set in eventually. Once it does it's over.

My wife is on a trip by herself to the place where it all happened. I am working. I'm not freaked out in the least. I told her "before you go understand something. If you choose to wander you are choosing to be divorced. For the simple reason that if you could intentionally hurt me the way you did twice then there is no hope for you or us. Now have a good time".

If she wanders, I did my best and that's it. She knows what's at stake. I can't make her want what she has. Sometimes I secretly wish she would. That way it'd all be over and I wouldn't have to worry about it, to be honest.


I didn't know there was this much emotional pain in the universe!
Me 42
Her 44
D-day 5.18.12
Currently in R

Posts: 305 | Registered: Jul 2012 | From: damaged71
noescape
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Default  Posted: 4:44 PM, July 8th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

on the anger, tc, word for word THIS

(I wish I displayed MUCH more than I have)

coupled with this

I used to think that it was because my WW hasn't been very remorseful, but I think that even if she suddenly became humble, broken and remorseful that my anger would actually be intensified. I would ask myself - Why would she want to start acting 'correctly' now?

There is also a part of my anger that is self directed. I'm angry with myself for wanting to fight so hard for a M that has obviously meant so very little to my WW. I'm angry that I've allowed myself to put up with this crap for so long.

worse now that I (and this may seem like I am a COMPLETE DOLT) felt - during the initial DDays and all that TT (so, never know what the REAL story is) - *sorry* for her....!!!??? "Having to live with this "monster" husband, needing to seek friendly 'company' elsewhere and even...

that 2 of the OMs 'walked away' from her/rejected her" (shit, shit, fuck, fuck-what an ASS). I mean wtf???!!! why? why would I even feel like that? and I buried the anger so deep and so hard - not only because I betrayed myself but also because of caustic philosophies like Marriage Builders which taught me about 'Love Busters' and how AO (angry outbursts), at least in our case, were 'what caused the A'.... fuck fuck shitty fuck.

Shit, they plotted against me. Hid from me. Now I'm supposed to think she's head over heels for me again? Especially when I am upset with her all of the time. There is really no positive mirroring. It is a roller coaster of emotions and triggers. We can be good for a few days and think we're going along fine and then the feelings of betrayal start to kick back in. Or she does something really fucking annoying.

went through this for 2 years. your only friend is DETACHING. and there is also the

Then they say they don't want to put up with our anger.

and I am sure it all stems from

My WW sucks at house work. Almost to a degree where it's passive aggressive and I think where's the pride? I work every day. I put myself in harms way. She does nothing.

PAs are classic underachievers. CLASSIC to a T. YEARs of struggle and sacrifice taught me she has nothing invested in a big way in improving herself or pulling her weight in any meaningful fashion. cosmetic stuff and surface stuff, yes... maybe. REAL change and growth? impossible. And the end result is that they RESENT the fuck out of you.

We're angry because they still think we're weak. That they still think they can gas light us some more. They think they can ride us out. Mine does. It's bullshit.
We're angry because they don't respond as normal people would. They don't care. They don't care about how we feel but we should care about them. They say WE are pushing them away by harassing them with questions about their betrayal.

selfish narcissism and unfettered hatred mixed in with entitlement. i've seen that there is really no way around it. no loving her past it, no 'this Affair Recovery program' or the other to work the M/fix it. No - its GOT to be OWNED and DRIVEN by them, and if they arent doing it, your answer lies right there and what you do with your anger after that is ENTIRELY up to you - DETACH, move on, nothing to see (fix) here.

and all I can say is

I'm the biggest ally she has. There is no respect.

was so narcissic she probably thought she could blame shift out of it.


I TURNED INTO THE GUY SHE SAID I WAS
WTF
I think WW has been the puppet master this whole time.
If you think you shouldn't be angry. If she convinced you of that then your fucked.

DITTO on all counts.

sorry, not being much help here other than saying "yep, BTDT, kinda expected"

It was all so senseless. So much destruction and pain for nothing.

you cant make sense out of crazy. period.

The anger though needs to be properly channeled. Be selfish, look at what you can get out of that anger. I learnt one thing through my experience; not ALL anger is 'wrong'. You HAVE to get angry at this shit. What you do with that anger is important though. You can let it destroy you or consume you or lead to really bad consequences if you have kids and/or other family members you care for. Or you can USE that anger to propel you towards detaching, getting healthy, making the decisions you would otherwise deem a risk/are fearful of the consequences of.

I cannot describe ANY of the even remotely important relationships in my life that don't at the very core have a high degree of respect as a foundation

well put tc. THAT is the crux of the matter. fuck all the books and philosophies and all that other Affair fixing/great marriage stuff. i've read it all (no doubt, helpful at some level). But as Jack Nicholson put it in "As Good as it Gets" (irony at play here); "I'm drowning here, and you're describing the water". Great to take into my next relationship (if there is any) but of no consequence to what I am dealing with now. And the fundamental flaw/missing element from a remorseless WW is that lack of respect (and EVEN IF you were to give her that, I would not expect any reciprocity).


Posts: 739 | Registered: Feb 2012
powerthroughpain
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Member # 39165
Default  Posted: 5:42 PM, July 8th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

2 months out from d day and I'm filing for divorce. My stbxww has been fairly remorseless and consumed with all of her issues pre affair and post. I'm done waiting for her to get right. Ive waited my whole relationship for her to get happy, and its not going to happen on my watch. I'm tired of getting sucked back into felling like I had some responsibility in this. I'm tired of her mistrusting me when she is the one that was the liar. Life will be better without them men! We are the good ones and we end up putting up with shit that we can't fix. No more fixer uppers for me thank you very much.


14 years together 1 dd 3 yold
5 years married
WW dday 4/23/13 8 month ea/pa
WW in ic
Separated
No contact finally 6/3/13
Not working on r
Filing for d

Posts: 29 | Registered: May 2013 | From: powerthroughpain
nuance
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Member # 28793
Default  Posted: 10:44 PM, July 8th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

TC, for me the anger subsided somewhat when I realized that in no way shape or form would there be "justice" for what had happened. There just isn't any justice for the BS. There is no way we can ever get even, ever. What we wanted more than anything was to stay married to a faithful spouse. Nothing gets that back or makes it right again. Now you just have what you have and that's it.

It took me 9 years to understand and accept this.


Dday May 2000. R'ed.
People suck.

Posts: 1159 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: California
didiknow
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Member # 39410
Default  Posted: 11:43 PM, July 8th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I don't know how much you guys are into writing stuff down but for me it helped enormously.
For the first month, I really wasn't nearly as angry at my WW as I thought I should be. I finally realized that it was because I was still hoping that things could be "fixed"

STBXWW moved out two days after D-Day and had her own apartment the next week.
After about a month, i finally hit the acceptance stage and realized that it was really over for good and broke down crying in the parking lot at work.

The next day I got angry, really angry; to the point where I was going to hurt someone or myself.
I wrote down exactly what I thought of my WW and what she had done and listed everything that I was mad about. I put down anything that I could think of whether it was being mad at her or mad at myself; whether it was something old or something new. I listed it all individually, in it's own sentence starting with "I'm mad at" or "I'm mad because" etc.
It was a long list and when I was done(it took a couple of hours because I kept thinking of new things) I sent it to her and she read it right away.
After that, 90% of the anger was gone, just gone.
I don't know how well it will work for you guys that are trying to reconcile but what do you have to lose?


Me-BH (38)
Her-WW (27)
M Aug 29, 2010
D-day May 25, 2013
A #1 June 2012
A #2 Late 2012-May 2013
No matter what "new" information you find out, it's all just part of the same iceberg, hidden under the surface.

Posts: 50 | Registered: May 2013 | From: wa
aesir
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Default  Posted: 2:54 AM, July 9th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I have seen a theory, and it sort of makes sense, that for many people (I believe the rational ones) anger doesn't really set in until it is safe to do so, when there are no bad consequences to the anger. This usually means that R is well underway, or that one has given up either hope or desire for R. During limbo, or until a strong desire for R is demonstrated by the WS, the anger is held in and not really felt.


Your mileage may vary... in accordance with the prophecy.

Do not back up. Severe tire damage.


Posts: 14924 | Registered: Nov 2007 | From: Winnipeg
wincing_at_light
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Member # 14393
Default  Posted: 7:02 AM, July 9th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Yeah, I cared a ton about your childhood issues BEFORE the A. Now? Not so much.


Exactly. I'm tired of dealing with it all and could care less about the 'cause' or the 'whys' except that I need her to understand for herself. I'm angry that this whole thing has occupied so much of my time and energy.

Saw this on the wall at Jimmy Johns yesterday:

~ Rule 6 ~
If you mess up, it's not your parents' fault. So don't whine about your mistakes, learn from them.

Of course, your wife will probably end up paying her therapist $10k over the next year to learn the same thing.

Life is not rocket science.


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6687 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
wincing_at_light
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Member # 14393
Default  Posted: 7:07 AM, July 9th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

dik, not much time for detailed response. you're wasting your time with that book.

I actually found those books to be enormously useful -- not from the perspective that they offer valuable insights into how to recover, but from the angle that they do a pretty bang-up job of describing the fucked-up headspace of a WW.

If you can sort through the bullshit rationalizations that the author is trying to justify and just look at the stories like case studies of the sort of monster you're dealing with, it's useful intel.

For the record, I think the second book is better than the first one, because by the second one, it's becoming clear that even the author (whose name I can't recall) is getting tired of all the whining bullshit, rationalizations and lies. Her tone struck me as actually quite sympathetic to men in general by the second installment.


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6687 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
aesir
♂ Member
Member # 17210
Default  Posted: 7:45 AM, July 9th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Had to backtrack to confirm since I missed the earlier post, but just from the quote and wws I was sure that must be the Women's Infidelity books.

For the record, I think the second book is better than the first one, because by the second one, it's becoming clear that even the author (whose name I can't recall) is getting tired of all the whining bullshit, rationalizations and lies. Her tone struck me as actually quite sympathetic to men in general by the second installment.
Oh come on wal, clearly she just tracked her reader demographics before she wrote the sequel, and realized she had to change the tone. It is obvious that she is not sick of her own whining bullshit, rationalizations and lies.

[This message edited by aesir at 7:46 AM, July 9th (Tuesday)]


Your mileage may vary... in accordance with the prophecy.

Do not back up. Severe tire damage.


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