I've been looking for *things that are true no matter what* & RP provides some clues.
Do not back up. Severe tire damage.
`Twas brillig, and the slithy toves Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: All mimsy were the borogoves, And the mome raths outgrabe. "Beware the Jabberwock, my son! The jaws that bite, the claws that catch! Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun The frumious Bandersnatch!" That section could well be titled "Whatever your WW didnt do with you or refused to, she'll try out/enjoy with OM". The premise is based on the earlier study I cited about how the attachment disorder types will find their sexuality to be more liberated with anyone EXCEPT their primary relational partner. Further evidence is in that many A stories you read on here where the WW did things for the OM or with OM which were "unimaginable" with the BH. From my personal experience, I know that WW probably dabbled in anal (no pun intended) amongst other 'kinky' stuff which she completely refused me for the entirety of our M barring the first 2-3 months. There is enough circumstantial evidence (though continual TT and a ton of toxic shame, so no confirmation) to suggest that she pulled out all stops to avoid vaginal intercourse (which may or may have not be breached 'in the heat of the moment' (pun intended)). I would greatly expand the coverage of sexual acts to extend well beyond BJs. He took his vorpal sword in hand: Long time the manxome foe he sought -- So rested he by the Tumtum tree, And stood awhile in thought. And, as in uffish thought he stood, The Jabberwock, with eyes of flame, Came whiffling through the tulgey wood, And burbled as it came! One, two! One, two!And through and through The vorpal blade went snicker-snack! He left it dead, and with its head He went galumphing back. "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. `Twas brillig, and the slithy toves Did gyre and gimble in the wabe; All mimsy were the borogoves, And the mome raths outgrabe.
How come in most of these recovery 'programs' (usually faith leaning) isn't there a bestowing of forgiveness on the BS for all the past "horrendous" mistakes which justified the A for the adulterer in the first place? I'd like to see them start with that (and lose their hordes of remorseless WSs who want a 'surface fixit' - yeah, I'm talking to you MB and AR)
Why is the forgiveness painted as something that the BS HAS to bestow to the WS?? I hated that magic eyes story every time I've read it, so thanks for fixing it for me mate!!! :)
JJ!!!! WOOOHOOO i KNEW you weren't lost to us.... yet
Off the cuff, I'm thinking detachment disorder is a failure to attach to oneself in a way, isn't it?
I recognize tendency to pathologize everything. It's tiring, and I too am sometimes 'tired of it all' even this far out...sometimes shit's *just broken*.
The WS punishes the BS through the mechanism of the A, then wants to both reject a punishment model once they've been caught (i.e., you don't have the right to punish me; you're my spouse, not my mother), and then drag up all the BS's old sins as "pre-A marriage issues" while also lambasting the BS for not moving quickly enough toward forgiveness and putting the past behind "us".
I grant that it must be disappointing that taking one's pound of flesh out of their BS doesn't satisfy the demands of the military-industrial resentment complex the WS has been constructing over the years.
But what's the BS to do? Pay twice? That seems to be the assumption. Is it just part of the shit sandwich we have to choke down if we're going to try to reconcile?
(I think so.)
And I'm trying to be generous here and give our theoretical WS the benefit of the doubt that we're not talking about a straight on blameshift here -- they really *are* still butt-hurt by that time you ogled their drunken sister at a party in 1985 or whatever.
But I've noticed for years and years that the trend entirely to common is that the WS owns the A and that becomes their thing to work on to heal the marriage, and the BS is expected to work on all of their pre-A flaws and failures...and what gets consistently lost is the idea that the A was not the beginning of the list of the WS's marital failures.
It was just the end. The straw that broke the camel's back. It's just so big that it dwarfs all of the other legitimate gripes the BS might have.
As I've said for years, for every WS with a list of complaints, resentments, and old wounds that they want to parse after D-day, I can guarantee you that the BS has a list just as long. But somehow pulling out that list looks like piling on. The WS has their hands full healing their lifetime of FOO issues, the hurt they've done to themselves with the A, etc...and *now* you want me to work on all of these other things, too?!
(Because the BS writhing on the floor picking the shards of their exploded worldview out of their guts is in a so much better position to be kicked while they're down, you understand. Because we also understand that in the first couple of years, the WS's idea of a "better marriage" means something like "you work your ass off to keep me and make me happy, because that's what good husbands do. Bring me flowers, tell me I'm pretty, build up my self esteem now that I'm not getting some other guy's penis-love declarations to distract me from the fact that I have no self-esteem.")
Goes back to that comment a few pages back about the WW who assumed she was a great wife because her husband wasn't complaining about being unhappy, and he must be a shitty husband because she felt unhappy.
There's so much pop-psychology grade narcissism in that outlook, but I'm sure they put their change in the children's hospital bucket at the gas station, so I don't want to suggest that we're talking about people who are evil to their core or anything. Just a bit misguided. Pain, as the saying goes, is narcissistic.
I think it's just all part of the process -- part of the fundamental injustice that never seems to end that the BS has to cope with in the beginning. When the WS carps about feeling unhappy/lonely/abandoned by their angry BS who won't talk to them or doesn't want to spend time with them, the objective observer would say something like, "You really can't be that much of an idiot, can you?"
And yet...you see it every day all over the internet and in marriage counseling offices the world over. The WS who says, "Look, I realize I've been double-dipping with support, affection, affirmation and validation for years now, while giving my BS next to nothing...but it's *hard* to go from a double portion to someone else's scraps of affection. Sure, my BS learned to live with it all of those years, but I want something better for mysel...I mean, for *us*."
That's why we tell guys to start working on themselves in the way *they* choose. Your WW isn't going to convert to a fully-formed human being overnight. At this moment in your life, when you need support and kindness and understanding more than you ever have or probably ever will again, your wife will be incapable of giving you that. You've *got* to learn to self-soothe and restore your own self-esteem and healing, because she's going continue to be a psychic vampire for at least a few more months. She's withdrawing from her constant distraction, validation, and extra penis options, even if she immediately and authentically throws the OM under the bus. She's trained her mind and her behaviors to require a constant stream of attention and admiration, and now that stream has been all but completely cut off.
Sort of puts some irony to the WS's charge that the BS wasn't there when they needed them. (Maybe the rest of you didn't get that one.)
But that's why the early priority has got to be detachment and self-healing. Forgiveness will come later. Forgiveness, honestly, isn't for a WS who hasn't exhibited repentance. Even the Biblical concept of forgiveness is predicated by repentance: you stop doing things, you change: both your actions and your thoughts. It's not "I fucked up, I feel bad about it, so God forgives me."
You don't jump straight to forgiveness because, honestly, the early WS isn't worthy of it, and you haven't felt the full weight of the struggle yet. Forgiveness isn't about making the past go away and trusting in a better future. Forgiveness is knowing fully and exactly the price of the wrong done to you, and choosing not to exact the full penalty one is due. Forgiveness is letting the penalty go.
...which brings us back, full-circle to the beginning of this post: the WS who wants to take into MC or whatever all of the pre-A stuff the BS needs to ask forgiveness for.
The WS has already exacted the full penalty. They chose vengeance rather than forgiveness. They can't "let those sins go" and be healed by the process, because they've already presented the bill. The BS is legitimately off the hook, even if the charges weren't made-up fog-babble -- and no matter how many times you'll hear a WS say simultaneously "he doesn't get to keep throwing my A in my face!" while getting their gripe on about how neglectful he was in the year leading up the affair.
But you guys wouldn't know anything about double-standards, would you?
At this moment in your life, when you need support and kindness and understanding more than you ever have or probably ever will again, your wife will be incapable of giving you that.
You hit it on the nail. And that is exactly why I'm leaving my spouse. The affair was the ultimate unkindess that she bestowed on me, however, it was merely the finally strike of a long history of unkindess. Even without the affair, I would have a hard time going back. Her mother even validated me when she said her daughter was a soul vampire and she was afraid I wouldn't leave her! I'm getting the fuk out fellas! There is a whole other world out there full of beautiful kind people. I know that my stbxw will have to carry this pain for the rest of her life and she will be miserable.
My take on the fable itself: HT's version is all of us; So is 1Faith's.
Just different points on the timeline.
(Though I'll agree that it's a bit heavy-handed, since it wants to give an understandable "reason" for Hilda's unfaithfulness -- her husband's righteous arrogance. You can do that sort of thing in fables, where all the witches are 100% wicked and all the princesses are 100% virgins.)
Forgiveness isn't about making the past go away and trusting in a better future.
Somebody, give this man a medal. new addition to my tag...
A big thanks to all of you for the sharing you do and the great insight. It has kept me somewhat sane during this lonely journey through the looking glass.
I find I get so lost on a daily basis. These posts help me stay focused. I know I can't change her, but I just want to say- "Open your eyes!!"
Screw it. I bought a boat. I once heard an actual good quote from Dion Sanders, though I think he must be parroting- "Don't waste time loving something that can't love you back."
My boat won't love me back, but it won't break my heart either. Pocketbook maybe, but I can deal with that.
Are we all wasting time loving something that can't (or won't) love us back??
[This message edited by slater13 at 12:34 PM, July 12th (Friday)]
I read this thread religiously.
As for wasting time loving something that can't (or won't) love us back, that's hard to predict. I did win the psychic of the year award for 2017 (thank you!), but that's a hard one to answer. I "believe" my wife loves me, in her way, probably more now than she has in our entire marriage. What I have trouble with is accepting that love because of the source. If we had gotten to this point by any other path, I'd be ecstatic. So I'm pretty sure I'm not wasting time loving someone that can't/won't reciprocate...I'd say I'm spending time trying to figure out how to accept that love. I'm sure each of us have different situations, even though we joke that we married the same woman, the reality is we married women with similar faults who may vary vastly in their capability, willingness, and desire to convince us that they can and will love us.
I "believe" my wife loves me, in her way, probably more now than she has in our entire marriage. What I have trouble with is accepting that love because of the source. If we had gotten to this point by any other path, I'd be ecstatic. So I'm pretty sure I'm not wasting time loving someone that can't/won't reciprocate...I'd say I'm spending time trying to figure out how to accept that love.
I'll second that... very well articulated, Tred.
What I have trouble with is accepting that love because of the source. If we had gotten to this point by any other path, I'd be ecstatic.
That is where I find myself as well. We had an interesting MC session last night. I was asked to let my WW know how I felt about her A. We actually didn't get that far because we got side-tracked on one of my comments about caring. I told her that I was angry that now I have to try to determine how much she cares about me or our M. She took offense to my implication that she doesn't CURRENTLY care for me. My point was that I had assumed in the past that caring was explicit in our relationship. Having an affair and the breaking no contact displays the exact opposite of caring. Now I tend to question the authenticity of the 'caring' she displays because she has proven that she is more than capable of not-caring for me when I needed her to care the most. MC sorta sided with her that I should only tell her how I am feeling now.
Anyway, I think how I'm feeling mimics what Tred was saying about having difficulty accepting the source of the love. Overall, she is displaying remorse and now finally doing the things that I wanted her to do for so long. Problem for me is I'm trying to figure out if it's too little too late. Can I accept the source, now that I know what she is capable of? Did she take too long to come around?
[This message edited by thinkingclear at 1:47 PM, July 12th (Friday)]
Or maybe I'm an elephant.
It took me 3 years to stop subconsciously answer with a sarcastic "sure you do, bitch" every time my wife said or did something caring. I simply did not believe her. After all, she'd lied to me for at least the two years of the A, made all the same expressions of love and caring when she was with me -- all while some other dude's cum was drying in her panties -- and I believed her.
That was my biggest obstacle, honestly: my own gullability. I'm actually a pretty trusting guy who generally assumes the best about people I meet. Try to always give people the benefit of the doubt. Assume that if you do manage to hurt my feelings, it was likely an accident.
My wife turned that against me and actively exploited my trust. She lied with confidence because she knew I wouldn't check up on her.
So, after an experience like that, how do you go about believing someone when they sit in MC and say "Okay, so we'll start being straight with one another from here on out. I pinky swear it's true."
There's a great illustration in 'Not Just Friends' about how deeply infidelity erodes trust. In essence, you build up trust over years by being reliable in little things, all piled together until there's a mountain of data to profile from. Because your spouse is almost completely reliable (unless honestly mistaken), you stop questioning even really odd behaviors, because they've got a huge balance in the trust bank.
Infidelity blows all of that away. After infidelity, if you ask your spouse if we need more milk and she says no, you check anyway.
Because she's unreliable. She's a liar. She gives you false data about the world.
'Not Just Friends' even advises that if your BS asks you if there's milk in the fridge and you don't know for sure, you'd better fucking[*] check before you answer, because you're giving your BS information about your truth-telling either way. The correct answer builds trust; the incorrect one just proves (once again) that you're a fucking liar.
When you wife says, "I care now."
Your answer is "Prove it. Prove it consistently for the next, say, 3 years without fucking it up, and then ask me again."
[*] Poster's insertion. Not in the original text.
MC sorta sided with her that I should only tell her how I am feeling now.
That would piss me off.
Yes I agree. I think he just wanted me to admit that I thought that she was capable of caring and was currently putting in effort. My point was that I can notice her efforts currently, but I honestly never noticed any lack of 'caring acts' during the A. So, to me 'caring' is being judged now where before it was assumed. Her fault for it being that way, but I was being honest with how I see things. I was trying to state...
Your answer is "Prove it. Prove it consistently for the next, say, 3 years without fucking it up, and then ask me again."
MC even told my wife that everything she does is examined by me and I am subconsciously saying something similar to...
"sure you do, bitch"
If only we could get WAL and maybe AuthenticNow to do our sessions! Wouldn't that be an interesting hour?
I'm glad you still snoop around here JJ.
[This message edited by thinkingclear at 3:07 PM, July 12th (Friday)]