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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: Betrayed Men - Part 11
thinkingclear
♂ Member
Member # 38884
Default  Posted: 10:12 AM, June 16th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Welcome usedupmyhope. You are clearly smarter than I. I'll admit it took me 4 times through but it so very clear now. Excellent start. Keep reading and posting.

There are so many on here right now in the exact same boat. Living in limbo with a remorseless and unenlightened WW. Maybe emotional maturity is too lofty of a goal but how can we possibly R without her demonstrating a true DESIRE to do so. They have lived in selfishness for long enough, but are they 'capable' of selflessness? If not I'm certain I will have to walk away. It is just too painful to have to live day by day with someone who caused so much pain and threatens our familes by their continued disrespect. That is going to be the topic of one our discussions real soon. Does she have the DESIRE or DRIVE to look at herself, her actions, her choices both past and present for the greater good of the whole family? If not, well for me at least., I can't seem to envision a future together.

MC_Jack - it sounds as if you are on the right path. I'm envious that your wife at least seems remorseful. Like it was recently said and it appears that you, and many of us, are working on the planks in our own eye's. Stay strong. If your wife was able to get to where she is professionally and can burden the responsibility of caring for the lives of others' surely she is capable of caring for herself, you and her family. Not that a graduate education is required. I refuse to believe that we all picked out emotional invalids. But they have to have the abiliity to demonstrate the desire to move past the elementary school perspective of 'he/you/they made me do it'. To refuse to do so to me shows as much, if not more, disrespect than the A itself. At least it seems that your wife has that desire. I hope that some of our wives can find that as well.

Happy Father's Day gentlemen!


BS - Me
WW - Her
10 month EA/PA

Posts: 211 | Registered: Apr 2013
Sal1995
♂ Member
Member # 39099
Default  Posted: 10:18 AM, June 16th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Happy Father's Day BM brothers, hope you all have a great one.

usedupmyhope, welcome. Sorry you find yourself here, but great opening first post. It took me about a month on SI to find a home in the BM thread, glad you got your posting start here. This is a great group of guys.


Me-45
WW-42
DDay 2/17/13, 10 month PA/EA
Final NC late Feb. '13
M - 18 years, together 19+
4 children

Reconciled


Posts: 1035 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Texas
MC_Jack
♂ Member
Member # 35016
Default  Posted: 11:44 AM, June 16th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Usedupmyhope,

Welcome, your writing reminded me of the quote/theme from Battlestar Galactica, "All of this has happened before, all of this will happen again."

Your dragon worth slaying is denial and self-deception. The pedastal we create is no weapon against inevitabilty and the human condition.

TC, yes having a remorseful wife is easier but offers less clarity. Either she fixes herself and makes the old marriage 'ok', or she busts her ass to make a new marriage that is better.than.evah. Or something in between. PROBLEM is that my bar is now higher. I now want more than what I was satisfied (in denial) with before.

Happy FATHERS DAY to you all !

- Jack


I am not a marriage counselor. I chose "MC Jack" in the spirit of a handle like "MC Hammer" or Young MC"...there is a lot of 'rapping' here, no? At the time I did not know what MC stood for on this site. Duh.

Posts: 792 | Registered: Mar 2012 | From: West Coast of Hopa-hopa-land
didiknow
♂ New Member
Member # 39410
Default  Posted: 11:53 AM, June 16th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Posted a lot on the other forums but this is my first over here. I'm so glad that I finally got around to coming here and reading what you guys are posting. I'm defininetly in the same boat with an unremorseful WW.

From what i've been reading on SI and also in a couple books, Not Just Friends and After the Affair, it seems to me that Reconciliation or even attempting R is much much more difficult with a WW than it is with a WH.

Is it just me or does it seem that when women cheat they have already decided that the Marriage is over, they just forgot to tell their husband.


Me-BH (38)
Her-WW (27)
M Aug 29, 2010
D-day May 25, 2013
A #1 June 2012
A #2 Late 2012-May 2013
No matter what "new" information you find out, it's all just part of the same iceberg, hidden under the surface.

Posts: 50 | Registered: May 2013 | From: wa
Betrayed444
♂ Member
Member # 38389
Default  Posted: 2:04 PM, June 16th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

MC
Battlestar Galactica rules!
Eve was a bitch btw
Happy Father's Day all
This one is better than last. WW grilled a ton of food. I took the day off because my boys begged me too.
Since we're slaying dragons and on the subject of white knights I thought this image was appropriate. I think this guy represents all of us.


Posts: 494 | Registered: Feb 2013
Betrayed444
♂ Member
Member # 38389
Default  Posted: 4:16 PM, June 16th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'm watching the deadliest catch and the captain says:
2 things you don't need as a crab fisherman.
A wife and a pick up truck because when you go away they are both being used!

Posts: 494 | Registered: Feb 2013
Ascendant
♂ Member
Member # 38303
Default  Posted: 5:50 PM, June 16th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

A question to those vets out there... How do you "sit in your pain and really feel it", as WAL said? I feel like I express my anger, sadness, etc., but I still worry that subconsciously I'm rug sweeping the A, and that the anger is going to bite me in the ass a few years from now, you know?


“Anyone who has a continuous smile on his face conceals a toughness that is almost frightening.”

Posts: 1618 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Illinois
aesir
♂ Member
Member # 17210
Default  Posted: 6:10 PM, June 16th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Is it just me or does it seem that when women cheat they have already decided that the Marriage is over, they just forgot to tell their husband.

It's a bell curve thing with respect to gender. Either one can go either way, but women tend more towards what you describe. It's not so much that they decide the marriage is over before they cheat, but the different kinds of justifications they tell themselves leading up to and after they have cheated. Some feminist theories state that it is because men can not handle it as well, but I do believe that there is a huge difference between the average man and average woman in how they behave if they have cheated. The WW's we see here on SI are exceptional.


Your mileage may vary... in accordance with the prophecy.

Do not back up. Severe tire damage.


Posts: 14924 | Registered: Nov 2007 | From: Winnipeg
usedupmyhope
♂ New Member
Member # 38330
Default  Posted: 9:06 PM, June 16th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Carl Jung explained the dichotomy as between the person's light and shadow.

The betrayed husband is loved in the light.The object of betrayal (snake) is loved by your wife in her shadow.

You can't be in her shadow. She'll never love you that way.
That's mostly why it's so hard to reconcile.Realizing that there is that big empty space that you can't fill.

If you want to heal, you'll have to find your own shadow and dwell in there.Only then Will you be on the same page.



Posts: 11 | Registered: Feb 2013 | From: usedupmyhope
jjct
♂ Member
Member # 17484
Default  Posted: 9:32 PM, June 16th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I think that's why I'm at One with my duality.

Compared to everything else though, I'm Jung.


Posts: 6032 | Registered: Dec 2007 | From: texas
jjct
♂ Member
Member # 17484
Default  Posted: 9:38 PM, June 16th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

FP, sitting in it - key word being in - leaves no room for worry. iow, when you worry, you are outside yourself. What you are experiencing in the moment.

I hope that makes some sense. & I sure hope no one quotes that back at me in the forgotten future. Cuz then I'll be all like...huh?


Posts: 6032 | Registered: Dec 2007 | From: texas
MC_Jack
♂ Member
Member # 35016
Default  Posted: 10:34 PM, June 16th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Aesir,

I disagree with what you implied and maybe I read what you wrote wrongly.

Your observations about the differences in justifications is valid, but there is a gender difference in terms of mean emotional involvement and what that means for the primary relationship. NJF goes over that to some extent.

Two other variables worth mentioning are the type of affair and the nature of the OM.

WAL can elaborate on his own story, but from what I recall, his WW did not develop a deep attachment to a particular individual. It seemed to be an attachment to a lifestyle. My WW's OM revealed himself to be more than someone with bad boundaries, yada yada, but instead a sex addict who had multiple APs. I point this out because sometimes affairs have a negative reinforcement quality to them.

didiknow, your point about 'forgetting' to tell is salient: there is a key gender difference in terms of fear of conflict. But I think for many women, once they are done, they can be done, like a switch, and it might be a result of an emotional attachment to another individual. Doomed. Unless they fall in love with you again. Meaning 'winning' them back. Groan.

That poses a serious quandary for handling the A and the conventional wisdom here. Handcuffed. More thinking about this later.

[This message edited by MC_Jack at 10:36 PM, June 16th (Sunday)]


I am not a marriage counselor. I chose "MC Jack" in the spirit of a handle like "MC Hammer" or Young MC"...there is a lot of 'rapping' here, no? At the time I did not know what MC stood for on this site. Duh.

Posts: 792 | Registered: Mar 2012 | From: West Coast of Hopa-hopa-land
noescape
♂ Member
Member # 34888
Default  Posted: 12:00 AM, June 17th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Yes, they (WWs) have checked out of the M, that's the sum of everything I have read. It's a generalisation and mileage varies.


Posts: 739 | Registered: Feb 2012
didiknow
♂ New Member
Member # 39410
Default  Posted: 12:03 AM, June 17th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

But I think for many women, once they are done, they can be done, like a switch, and it might be a result of an emotional attachment to another individual. Doomed. Unless they fall in love with you again. Meaning 'winning' them back. Groan

I definitely think that my WW saw the exit and ran for the door as soon as I confronted her. She left the house 2 days after D-Day and had a new apartment by the next week. She still hasn't discussed the affair with me and basically has gone NC on me.
She definitely decided that she was done; i'm just not sure if the A came first or the decision to quit.

As far as "winning her back", one of my earliest epiphanies, after D-Day, was that she has an overwhelming need to be pursued. The only thing she said to me when I confronted her about A #1 was "I was unhappy, He made me feel wanted."


Me-BH (38)
Her-WW (27)
M Aug 29, 2010
D-day May 25, 2013
A #1 June 2012
A #2 Late 2012-May 2013
No matter what "new" information you find out, it's all just part of the same iceberg, hidden under the surface.

Posts: 50 | Registered: May 2013 | From: wa
noescape
♂ Member
Member # 34888
Default  Posted: 3:45 AM, June 17th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Sorry to hear about your sitch didiknow. The decision to leave probably came before the A. She just didn't tell you or discuss it in the way a healthy person in a M should. If she's had more than 1 A, it should be quite obvious that it's not love for the AP, but what she gets reflected during the A.

You should basically get working on the 180 and detaching. It'll put you in a calmer place. As long as she feels you're pursuing her, you can be certain to be gas lit, blamed and lied to.


Posts: 739 | Registered: Feb 2012
aesir
♂ Member
Member # 17210
Default  Posted: 5:26 AM, June 17th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Aesir,
I disagree with what you implied and maybe I read what you wrote wrongly.

Nah, I wrote it badly. Was rushed for time on something, I think it was my pizza cooking.

Your observations about the differences in justifications is valid, but there is a gender difference in terms of mean emotional involvement and what that means for the primary relationship. NJF goes over that to some extent.

Two other variables worth mentioning are the type of affair and the nature of the OM.

Men and women have the same reasons for having affairs. Women however are more likely to develop a strong emotional involvement with AP and detachment from the BS as part of their justification process. Maybe it's cultural, because no matter how hard they try, feminists can not seem to stick men with a label that is as derogatory as slut, however much some may deserve it.

Two other variables worth mentioning are the type of affair and the nature of the OM.

Not sure what the nature of any OP would have to do with a person deciding the marriage was over before they cheat.

As for the type of affair, I remember reading an interesting classification of affair types by Huizenga. Instead of classifying by frequency, how they started, duration, or length, they were classified by the justifications used by the WS.

The fact is that women who have affairs appear statistically more likely to decide they are done with the marriage after the affair starts as part of their justification process, while men who decide they are done with the marriage appear to be more likely to have an affair in an attempt to arrange a soft landing. For some reason women are more likely to be comfortable with the idea of being alone.

Bottom line, I stand by my assertion that while many times people may say that they had an A because they were done with the marriage, generally speaking they decided they were done with the marriage because they had an A. Why bother to keep it secret otherwise? If you are really done with the marriage, no need to lie to your spouse and keep them around as plan B.

But I think for many women, once they are done, they can be done, like a switch, and it might be a result of an emotional attachment to another individual. Doomed. Unless they fall in love with you again. Meaning 'winning' them back. Groan.

That poses a serious quandary for handling the A and the conventional wisdom here.

For either gender, that is because some view love as a feeling, while for others it's a commitment. Not really a quandary if you look at it that way. If they view love as a commitment, you have something to work with long term, but if it is just a fickle feeling that comes and goes, it is for the best that they go. Ego may drive us to believe that R is the more desirable option, but that is not always the case. Sometimes you have to make sure that your oxygen mask is in place and functioning correctly before attempting to assist anyone who may be travelling with you.


Your mileage may vary... in accordance with the prophecy.

Do not back up. Severe tire damage.


Posts: 14924 | Registered: Nov 2007 | From: Winnipeg
noescape
♂ Member
Member # 34888
Default  Posted: 5:54 AM, June 17th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Didiknow, after reading through your earlier posts I would say that the advise from stronger8 is possibly the best you could ever get. Re read it a few times and keep coming here to reinforce. You cannot win her back (you cannot love her back into the M, not unless you're ready for an unsafe M with someone who will keep treating you with disrespect and be looking for justifications for her next fling, sorry, being blunt), you cannot uncover any more truth from a remorseless WS (you'll only get more lies, blame shifting, crazy making and TT), you cannot fix her (that's only going to happen if SHE wants to and recognises there is fixing to be done on her part) and there is no way you can even start to work on fixing the M before she gets remorseful AND starts WORKING on her shit.

I know I came late to SI and for a variety of reasons found myself take over a year to even start implementing some of the great advise you get on here, each of us will bumble along the way. So I know it'll be difficult to take everything you get here on SI and start implementing on the get go. I think her leaving you and going NC is a golden opportunity for you to detach, take stock of yourself (start loving yourself man), and put in place some healthy boundaries to protect yourself. If she breaks NC (and I'd bet she will because I think it's a ploy to pull you back in and assuage her guilt because "she won't be such a bad person if you chased her and wanted her back", right?), you should, whatever direction you decide to go with this, have a healthy amount of self respect and boundaries in place which will help you navigate through her bullshit rather than be manipulated by it.

Sorry if all of this is unsolicited, just realised you never asked for inputs on your sitch man


Posts: 739 | Registered: Feb 2012
thinkingclear
♂ Member
Member # 38884
Default  Posted: 6:49 AM, June 17th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

"I was unhappy, He made me feel wanted."

Sorry to hear about your situation. You have been given excellent advise. Keep focusing on you, reading and posting. Take it all in. What your wife told you is so remarkably common and in many ways demonstrates an inability to self-soothe. She felt unhappy about something in her life and you and your M became the scapegoat because it is a lot easier and less painful than looking at herself for answers.

They have told themselves lies in the form of justifications and excuses for so long to avoid the painful realization that they are a 'slut' that they actually start to believe them. They don't want to let go of this narrative because then they will have to answer to being a 'slut'. Instead it is 'your' fault that they didn't feel 'loved'. Your fault they didn't feel desired, pursued, fulfilled, and whatever else they can come up with that you didn't do.

I love the concept:

some view love as a feeling, while for others it's a commitment. Not really a quandary if you look at it that way. If they view love as a commitment, you have something to work with long term, but if it is just a fickle feeling that comes and goes, it is for the best that they go.

I think this helps to put it into perspective. Mature love to me is a choice. To accept the little things that drive you crazy, to forgive the small infractions, to recognize the 'uglier' side of the one you love and continue to do so because it's your choice.

Problem for me is I believe my wife believes both views of love - a feeling and a commitment. Unfortunately I believe her commitment is to avoid feeling like a 'slut' if we were to divorce. She is less a 'slut' if we can reconcile. In any event, it is about how this makes her feel. It is all about her. Hence the lack of remorse. Remorse would require that she actually care about me. The pain her actions have caused. The danger she has exposed her children to. The selfishness on full display. All of those are too painful to bear it seems so the justifications and excuses continue.


BS - Me
WW - Her
10 month EA/PA

Posts: 211 | Registered: Apr 2013
thinkingclear
♂ Member
Member # 38884
Default  Posted: 7:09 AM, June 17th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

PROBLEM is that my bar is now higher. I now want more than what I was satisfied (in denial) with before.

I agree totally. That is part of what I'm trying to work on in myself. How could I have been satisfied with what I don't believe was ever a healthy relationship, but for some reason (denial) I wasn't aware of the dysfunctional situation? I expect a lot more from her now and quite frankly I expect more from myself.

Why can't remorse include that

she busts her ass to make a new marriage that is better.than.evah

To me true remorse would include the fundamental understanding that:

- They are the one's that screwed up. Something is broken in them and they need to have the desire and drive to find it and fix it.
- Willing to 'do whatever it takes for as long as it takes' to do the above.

If she is only willing to:

fixes herself and makes the old marriage 'ok

Is that really enough? Is that really remorse? Still think it comes down to them doing what it is 'we' need them to do, not what they want to do. They lost that choice when the decided to step out of the marriage.

Don't have the answers yet myself.

[This message edited by thinkingclear at 7:11 AM, June 17th (Monday)]


BS - Me
WW - Her
10 month EA/PA

Posts: 211 | Registered: Apr 2013
didiknow
♂ New Member
Member # 39410
Default  Posted: 7:51 AM, June 17th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thank you guys so much for the comments and the soft 2x4. It's exactly what I needed to hear. I knew in my head that I need to 180 and NC her completely but knowing and doing are two seperate things. I'm embarassed to admit that i've been sending her emails, for the last week, to try and direct her "recovery" and I realize that it's never going to do either one of us any good.

I also appreciate the validation about how it's her own selfishness and poor coping skills that is the problem. The idea of her coming to terms with being a "slut" really hit home for several reasons.

I actually went ahead and filed for D on Thursday, I still have to serve the papers, so most of me knows that this thing is over and only a complete turn around in her behavior would change that. There's nothing I could say to her that would make a difference.

Thanks everyone


Me-BH (38)
Her-WW (27)
M Aug 29, 2010
D-day May 25, 2013
A #1 June 2012
A #2 Late 2012-May 2013
No matter what "new" information you find out, it's all just part of the same iceberg, hidden under the surface.

Posts: 50 | Registered: May 2013 | From: wa
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