There's always a;
"I could've been a better husband" acknowledgement...a taking of responsibility for the state of the (old, dead)M.
Since wal pointed it out so long ago, I'd be interested in why it seems to be a pattern of men.
Not that women don't do it. It's just that it occurs with striking regularity with men.
It is another consistent theme.
I suspect the deeper reasons for it are related to our broken pickers.
Hardwiring gone awry?
IDK yet, I'm still putting it together in the *things that are true* bin. (apologies to aesir, it hasn't passed yet)
In myself, I've learned that it was about my own low self-esteem, fixing fixer-uppers made me valuable.
That was a beautiful exchange back there btwn wal & 64. Thanks wal & 64. Made a piece of my heart happy.
She told me that she often counsels couples in situations where it's all she can do to avoid telling the BS to run and never look back because the WS is so toxic and almost certain to inflict further pain. She said that's definitely not the case with my wife and thinks that we have the potential to be very happy together for many years. And this MC has had no problem being brutally honest when called for. 5 minutes into our first session she told my wife that she didn't just betray me, she betrayed our four children.
I have to admit, the affair does seem completely out of character for my wife. The few people who know besides me were generally flabbergasted by the news. Other than TT about some really shameful and embarrassing stuff, my wife has been pretty close to a model recovering wayward, if there is such a thing.
And our MC/IC is not some hack - she has a great rep in our community and came highly recommended.
Yet despite all of that, my wife is still the same person who engaged in really bad behavior for 10 months. So I now know what's she capable of, the MC's confidence in her notwithstanding.
So it seems that I married a woman who wasn't all that likely to betray me, but did so anyway. Many times over a significant period of time. Lucky me.
Like I said in wert's post in the Reconciliation thread, this stuff is crazymaking.
Any takes on this are welcomed, as always.
[This message edited by Sal1995 at 6:37 PM, July 17th (Wednesday)]
I'd like to point out that you carried on the fine tradition of virtually all men who are new to the suck -
Holy shit JJ that is a great description of the menz section!
Welcome to the suck
I had the misfortune to see this play out about a year ago in a male friend who went through this, and all I kept telling him was that it wasn't his fault. He couldn't absorb that data at the time, and now I understand the mechanisms behind that inability to absolve oneself of the blame. It's a heavy, persistent feeling that I guess is natural in this situation.
BTW, that friend has become an invaluable resource to me during this trauma. His WW just straight up left him, but he's way happier now than he was in that marriage. I'm obviously not sure if that's the road I'll end up taking, but it helps to find some real empathy, whether here or through a friend.
Sort of a perfect infidelity storm.
Our MC told me that to at one of our IC sessions. I wonder if that is a stock phrase?
Of course my MC did also point out my wife's lack of boundaries, need for validation, conflict avoidance, and a bunch of other shit too.
There's always a;
"I could've been a better husband" acknowledgement...a taking of responsibility for the state of the (old, dead)M
Ain't that a mother fucker? Pretty sure my wife could have been a tiny bit better of a wife...I'm not asking for a lot, just try not to suck other dude's dicks...you know, simple things.
I think we all say that early on, in part, because we tend to buy into some of the marital history re-write that our wives create. I did it too, and what I have come to recognize is that not only am I a fucking awesome husband, I am a fucking awesome person. I think my greatest asset is probably my humility.
444, sometimes the suck is in inverse proportion to:
His WW just straight up left him, but he's way happier now than he was in that marriage
WR - me too
I will say that I've come a long way from my initial response.
Keep poking at it guys. There's something there we need to see I think.
I think my greatest asset is probably my humility.
Man, does this bring back some bad memories:
an A would "make her marriage better"
Best laugh I've had all day!
My wife's tagline on Ashley Madison was "Every marriage needs an affair to add spice". Her username was spicyfun
Fuck Tred, that sucks.
I gave it some thoughts, and I think I agree with you, my rugged good looks are probably one of the greatest things about me, followed closely by my humility.
On a scale of 1 to 10, I'm about a 10 in the humility category, but only a 9.5 in the other two.
I'm also great with kids, senior citizens, and pets, but hate to brag about that.
Tred, was she trying to spice up your marriage, or someone else's?
[This message edited by Sal1995 at 8:36 PM, July 17th (Wednesday)]
My initial response of responsibility is shaped by the marriage dynamics prior to discovery of the A. At least in mine I knew that things weren't perfect. I was already working on making the marriage better. Compromising here, doing extra there, paying more attention to her here, trying to make life easier for her there. And on and on with the little things I was doing in order to improve the imperfect.
Meanwhile her approach to improving the marriage was filling those perceived deficiencies with another mans penis. In the process ignoring her own shortcomings, and instead placing all the blame on what I wasn't doing. Therefore all prior conversation had a tendency to focus on what I needed to fix.
So now we hit D-day, I'm still in that frame of mind....what can I do better to make the marriage better. Similar to why on D-day and after we still love them, we loved them the day before, it can be hard to turn that feeling off in an instant.
Initially we are still trying to make a better life and marriage for ourselves.
Amazing how much this shit blows back up in their face. Now I realize all those extra things I was doing prior to the A amounted to shit. 99% of the problems in the marriage, weren't problems with me, they were problems with those selfish deficiencies running around in that dusty cobweb of neurons she calls her brain.
Now I'm smarter, I understand how faulty my perceptions were. At D-day I viewed things as 50-50 split for who created issues in the marriage. Now fuck that! She gets no benefit of the doubt, she can take credit for 99% of the shit in our marriage. For 4 years she bailed on it. She wasn't trying to fix shit, she was only worried about keeping her secret friend a secret.
In short...old habits die hard. Unfortunately I was in the habit on thinking our marriage mattered to both of us. I no longer feel any need to take responsibility. I (like wonderboy) was a good fucking husband (pun intended)! She can recognize or walk. I know plenty who see how good of a man I am, she thinks poser is better than me, she has an open invitation to have him. So far she's still here.
[This message edited by DefiledRage at 10:23 PM, July 17th (Wednesday)]
Mister rabbit says, "A moment of realization is worth a thousand prayers."
I will say that I've come a long way from my initial response, which was crushing guilt and a feeling of responsibility for the A itself.
EXACTLY where I started and languished for a few months. FTN (fuck that noise). The A is ALL on HER and on top of that I second
At D-day I viewed things as 50-50 split for who created issues in the marriage. Now fuck that! She gets no benefit of the doubt, she can take credit for 99% of the shit in our marriage. For 4 years she bailed on it. She wasn't trying to fix shit, she was only worried about keeping her secret friend a secret.
the 50/50 stuff is bullshit - mine carried out her A's (or hid them) for the majority of our M, which makes the shitty M HER issue, not mine..
She said that's definitely not the case with my wife and thinks that we have the potential to be very happy together for many years.
At least in mine I knew that things weren't perfect. I was already working on making the marriage better. Compromising here, doing extra there, paying more attention to her here, trying to make life easier for her there. ..... In the process ignoring her own shortcomings, and instead placing all the blame on what I wasn't doing. Therefore all prior conversation had a tendency to focus on what I needed to fix.....what can I do better to make the marriage better.
not only am I a fucking awesome husband, I am a fucking awesome person. I think my greatest asset is probably my humility.
Men Only-Timeline for Gaining Respect for FWW
angryWAL, I be your new best friend.... woohoo
Quite a revelation though huh. Here we are trying to be better husbands and come to find out our ww has been stacking the deck against us the whole time.
Not sure how much time you guys have spent in vegas, but I used to go all the time with my boys. Its the only way not to lose your shirt at the blackjack tables. Fill all the seats with people having the same strategy, nothing illegal. Just keeps some cigar smoking jackass drinking whiskey sours and money to burn from continually hitting and taking the dealers bust cards. Anyway somewhere along the way the casino figures out we know each other and sends in what we called "the ringer". They call in a dealer change, two deals in you know things aren't looking good, third deal you know your fucked. Get up, walk away, you'll be lucky to win 2 out of 10 hands. The point to my story.....
My own fucking wife was "the ringer" for my marriage. I'd tell her she looked nice, she pulls an ace. I clean the house top to bottom on my days off so she can come home and relax, she deals me a queen on my 12. The game was rigged. She countered every positive with a negative, she was actively sabotaging it all. If I had known I wouldn't have been playing. I would have been at the sportsbook betting some something that wasn't rigged...like NBA games
Seriously, someone (I vote WAL) should write a tongue-in-cheek tragicomic WW Textbook. A chapter for gaslighting, another one for TT, one for blameshifting and so on. Add a special section in the appendix for jealousy immediately after the XBH dates for the first time. You get the idea.
One could say that WWs could actually use it as a textbook. Don't worry, they know it by heart.
During my last IC session, she told me that she feels without reservation that my wife will never stray again.
This statement sounds more like "What are the odds of rolling all fours again?" than having any substance.
Life is stressful, there are people skilled at manipulating, and there are more changes in life than just mid-life. What has the MC/IC and your FWW done to address her toxic FOO issues? What has your FWW done to develop and practice defending boundaries? To better self-soothe and deal with stress?
Less than 5 months does not seem to be a lot of time to have identified and addressed FOO issues. My FWW has been working on this for 2.5 years now, and while better she still struggles with reverting back to form, especially in times of stress.
Our MC/IC has indicated that FWW is doing much better in many areas and given me examples. He has asked what fears or issues I have that cause me to still be on the fence about D or not. We talk about these things, but I cannot envision him stamping FWW "CURED" and sending us on our way.
You may be on a steeper curve to R than we were. It took about 6 months for the TT to end with us, and a year for FWW to chase down the path I was on and declare she wanted our M to work. I am comfortable that with the behaviors I currently see from FWW and the relationship I have now with her that she is not going to be involved in an A in the short-term. I am a long way from ever feeling that long-term this would never happen again.
the 50/50 stuff is bullshit
I was very willing to take on the blame because I knew that I could fix me. Relying on FWW to make things right in the M was a scary proposition given my M history.
Me too. I would just add to what WAL said. 64 has earned my respect through many a great post and most of all perseverance. I want good things for you too 64. And trying to not be too sappy - for all of you.
I havent heard that for years.....
Its funny....the first time I heard that I was at Camp Darby at Benning.....the last time I heard that was my inner voice on DDay telling me...."welcome to the suck my friend"