SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I read a thread in general that has sparked a thought trail. Although I know it's ok for me to post in general I feel more comfortable here.

The thread was about what makes or breaks an A?

I started thinking about my own circumstances. How it started etc. Mine was a LTA (2.5 years) and it was long distance. 2 and a half years is a long time and I sat there in shock wondering how it went on for as long as it did. It was like a smack in the face and something that hadn't registered until now.

How did it go on for as long as it did? I guess for me it was mainly via Skype, IM's, emails etc. There was no sneaking away and unexplained periods of absences. It was an emotional crutch and I was his escape. I'm not sure. I'm still baffled as to how so much time passed in a surreal world that was based on lies and infatuation.

Do you think there is any correlation between length of an affair and damage done to a marriage?

To all waywards who had LTA's, what were the conditions that were present that allowed it to go on for so long?

How did it go on for so long? Because he was a master at deception. Because he had a job that facilitated his affair. Because there was no need to tell me when they had agreed it would be an affair. Because his job changed explained his sometimes irrational behaviour. And finally, because he/they wanted it to. It was woven into the very fabric of their lives. Habitual and routine. Comfortable. If he was away and her BH was away and WH’s hotel was within striking distance that meant they both had company. They loved each other. It wasn’t so much infatuation as escaping into another world for a while.

Yes, I do think there is a correlation between the length of the affair and the resulting damage. There has to be a certain mind set to allow this to happen, an acceptance, a belief that it’s alright to behave that way. Then there are the years of tainted memories; every anniversary, birthday, Christmas, holiday, special event like a wedding, they are all seen in a different light after d-day by the BS. And yes, we wonder what the heck our WS were thinking of and certainly felt taken for granted.

The conditions present were the perfect storm. MOW was fWH’s ex-fiancee. They split due to the fact that they went to different universities. fWH went to Oxbridge and she went to one 130miles away. Back in the ‘70s that was probably a day’s hitch hiking for him to go and see her. In the second year, she started seeing the man who became her husband and she dangled him as an ultimatum – change uni’s or it’s over. FWH walked. He described it as “unfinished business.” It was a classic Old Flame Romantic Affair. And another reason why it went on for so long. They had history and shared memories. They had an intense and tempestuous relationship the first time around and that was part of the attraction the second time around.

An LTA is a different animal. And very hard to heal from.

UKlady, I just read your profile. You have gone through an awful lot and I only hope you find some inner peace someday.

The thing that strikes me most about your WH is his sense of consistent disillusionment and entitlement. A common theme for LTA's. His poetry indicates a kind of "hopeless romantic" mentality. One that hasn't fully reconciled with real life and putting past flames/ideas/fantasies to sleep.

Always searching for something "new" or "better" but never really appreciating what you already have. It's an internal broken-ness that shouts "you're too good to love ME".

There may not have been any infatuation on your WH's side but there certainly seems to be on his MOW side.

Hi Trying...I hope some waywards give their thoughts on this interesting thread.

I can tell you that my H's affair went on the same amt of time - 2+years. He believed that bc the AP was not in "our world" but a plane ride away, there was no risk of running into her with me. There were no unexplained afternoon/evening disapperances that I would become suspicious of and question him about. That having someone he could escape too far from home made it somehow....better. Better then those other people having A's in their own backyard. In his mind, "the two worlds could not collide". It went on for so long bc the risk of getting caught was much lower. The anticipation in seeing someone every 2-4 months so thrilling. It allowed him to stay in the fog that much longer.

Soon though, the fairy tale ended. Not only did she want more, but colleagues were noticing "something" at conference. And I was on to him by now questioning him in 2011. I would like to say it was bc he felt tremendous guilt for betraying me that he ended it. That is what he feels now. But no. He ended it bc it got out of hand. She wanted the marriage to end. He never did. In his words it, "should have ended way before it did."

But it didn't.

To all waywards who had LTA's, what were the conditions that were present that allowed it to go on for so long?

The conditions present that allowed it to go on for so long? Me.

Mine was over two years. Months in between. My ex knew. I rarely thought about him when we weren't together and didn't have "special" songs, movies, jokes. He was actually more of a gps device. We hunted, climbed, skied, sky dive (once) and if something happened he'd at least be a reference to start the search.

Sad but true. Length didn't equate to depth (jesus, sounds like a porn movie). Hell, my marriage lasted 12 years and I can basically say the same thing about that...except for the additional ER visits.

Oh, and three beautiful boys. There's that, so quite worth it.

[This message edited by uncertainone at 3:27 PM, June 23rd (Sunday)]

My WH thought process was similar to LA44 describes. I am curious about other WW responses to Trying33 question. I am interested in other perspectives on damage of LTAs.

Do you think there is any correlation between length of an affair and damage done to a marriage?

My WH had a 2 yr long distance A. He told me they contacted each other sporadically. The timeline I got was they only met about 10 times. He told me it was fantasyland and it was easy to hide because of his travel.

The reality is the damage to our marriage was done before the LTA ever began. For me the damage from the A was I learned he was willing to hurt me for his selfish ego needs. That damage has been hard to repair.

I don't understand how he kept the long distance LTA going. I think it must have took effort to continue the A. Effort I did not see he gave our marriage.

On the other hand, I am not sure ONS or a few short lived A's would make me feel any better. I realized it didn't matter how many OW's and how long it lasted to the extent of damage to our marriage.

On the positive side we are starting to make good R progress. The triggers are getting less. R is still a work in progress but is getting easier. It hurts that it took an A for us to both want to work on our marriage at the same time.

LTAs do seem to be different animals. My WH's went on for 7 years. SEVEN years. I still find that unfathomable. In any case, for a LTA to go on for that length of time, the A can't be an all-consuming flame. Rather, it's an alternate reality that they slip into and out of. So LTAers, almost by definition, are master compartmentalizers. My WH (as far as I know, and he swears this is true, for what that's worth) didn't communicate with her outside their meetings, which were not strictly sexual - they did stuff together.

Judging by the LTA thread, a lot of the Ms don't survive. It is difficult to get over the extent of the lying and the tarnishing of memories. In addition, a lot of the BSs seem to have co-dependency/ low expectations of relationships, which becomes unacceptable once they see how much they've been disrespected/how little they're valued. They realize that their WS just doesn't have what it takes to be a truly loving, intimate partner. They may well have developed these low expectations as a result of subtle gaslighting by the WS or simply long-term neglect. Whatever.. The ANGER when you realize the extent to which you've been taken for a ride is just devastating.

My WH is working very hard on R. Unlike many WSs, he was always affectionate, kind, and loving to me. I probably can't reasonably ask for much more of him. And yet I still am not sure I'll be able to get over it. I have no idea how long it will take me to heal, or if I can forgive him for inflicting such horrible pain on someone whom he claimed to love and who did nothing but love him as best she could. I remember early on someone said something about 2 years for every year of the A, which gives me another 13 years of misery to look forward to....

Oh, and what were the conditions that allowed it to go on? WH traveled a lot for work. I was used to him having female colleagues with whom he socialized (we'd been married 12 years when the A started, and there had never been a hint of anything before. In my more paranoid moments I wonder if there had been others.). I was a strong, independent person used to doing stuff on my own and I gave him a lot of freedom (given his job, I didn't have much choice). For 2 years of the A, WH was unemployed and was able to meet the AP during the day. ("Hon, I'm meeting X for lunch today.""OK, sweetie, have a great time!"). Then they both got a job in another city, where WH got an apt for one month a week. He swears this was accidental, which seems likely as they're in a small field. In any case, it was easy. There was opportunity. The second part was the AP. She was emotionally undemanding. Didn't want him to leave me. Was intensely private and didn't share her deepest feelings/emotions. Was basically happy with a fuckbuddy who could keep her company. (She was single but had a long distance BF. Apparently her first reaction when WH split upw her was , "Now we wont be able to do all that fun stuff we'd planned.") So in one sense WH could justify it bc he was still being loyal to me.

This is probably not all all helpful to you, I'm afraid. Even here on SI, it seems to be a weird case...

[This message edited by Blobette at 4:36 PM, June 23rd (Sunday)]

t/j

I remember early on someone said something about 2 years for every year of the A, which gives me another 13 years of misery to look forward to....

Why? I know the whole time thing is so subjective but why would you want to go through that? Can you just "for now" it until you can determine if it's too much?

(((blobette)))

Thanks for the response, UO. Yes, that's what I'm doing. My dad died recently so I've been going through a lot of depression and "what's the point" kind of stuff lately, so it's hard to hang on no matter how much you know, intellectually, that this is all part of the roller coaster. One of the things I talk about w my IC is that I responded to my abusive dad by sealing off my heart to him and it's all too easy to go that route with WH. Sorry, don't mean to hijack a Wayward thread.

[This message edited by Blobette at 4:42 PM, June 23rd (Sunday)]

Do you think there is any correlation between length of an affair and damage done to a marriage?

Any affair does damage to a marriage. I do feel that there can be factors that make it more difficult or challenging to R. My A was a year long. To add, it was with a MOM my BH considered to be his best friend. A double betrayal. It began as an EA and progressed to a PA. We spent weekends, holidays, and vacationed with them. We started MC shortly after DDay. When we moved out of state 6 months later, our MC confided to us that early on he felt our M was doomed. It is now almost 3 years later. We just bought a new house last month and we are doing well. My point is that as damaged as my M was, does not necessarily predict the outcome.

What it does mean is that there is a lot if work to do whether you R, S, or D. Being able to own your actions without being defensive about them. Finding out those why's and working on the behaviors that allowed you to justify your actions. My reasons could be very different from yours, however the similarity I am certain will be is that there was something I was getting out of it. And that something was so important to me that it didn't matter how I got it or under what circumstances. Because I deserved it after all. And if I wasn't happy it couldn't have been my fault, right? It had to be his. So I began to demonize him. That made it easier to justify. And the fact that MOM was someone we spent time with online and in person made my A convenient. I didn't feel as if I was being very sneaky. BH could ask who I was talking to and I could say MOM and tell myself I was being "honest".

I think what is considered deal breakers is not always the length. There are plenty of couples that have split up over ONS. There are some that have a difficult time with the PA. For us, I feel the EA is hardest part to work through. The lack of consideration regarding my husband and his feelings. Disregard and disrespect, and deception. Making him feel as if his reality was one thing while it was truly another. It can feel as if MOM and I were coherting against him, snickering behind his back. And that makes it quite difficult to begin to trust again.

I think there is a difference between length and emotional time invested. No matter what the situation, you can't predict an outcome based on those initial factors. The most broken of people can learn to live an authentic life.

Some really good points made. Thank-you everyone for your thoughts.

LA44, You could have been writing about me and my xAP. It should never have gone on for as long as it did. But it did. Why? Because, essentially when you have two emotionally weak and cowardly people, and you put them together, they start relying on each other to keep standing. Phrases such as "You help me function in my real life" and "Looking forward to entering trying/xAP world tomorrow" were very common during the A. There was no hiding that it was a relationship of convenience on both sides, BUT as time went on the convenience went into dependency and fear of living REAL life without that person that makes things so bearable. That person who allows you to continue living your "crappy" life without really having to take any real risks or make any sacrifices. In other words ESCAPISM.

I believe, during some point in a LTA, the woman (mostly more than the man) will want to have more security and stability and will pressure the man for this. He will realise, actually, I already HAVE the wife, the kids, the home, the car. I don't want that with YOU. I want the FANTASY with YOU. I want the ego stroking and the unlimited sex. He knows full well, that if she becomes his WIFE (which is what she's asking for) he will be where he is now. Please do not see this as a flippant and fleeting comment. It's what I've gathered from my own experience and from my extensive research and reading. This does not mean this is the case in ALL LTA's but in very many. She's invested the time in him and now she needs something to seal this and validate all her energy.

The factors and themes that come up again and again seem to be the availability and accessibility. An A needs to be "fuelled". I fuelled mine during working hours. It was an 8 hour long day of mutual ego massaging. It was enough quality time to become intensely emotionally ravelled up in one anothers lives. So, the jobs that people have within the dynamics of an A are important in relation to this.

In my case, xAP had a job where he sat alone all day in an office and basically chatted to me. He was a director in a company and had zero motivation to do the work he was doing. He hated his job and was stuck in a war-torn country with bombs going off around him on a daily basis. My H was at work all day and I have full time domestic help which again created the availability. It was pathetic and we acknowledged how pathetic it was but still felt compelled to do it. Why? Because we could and we didn't see why we shouldn't.

Another theme seems to be the distance. It would appear a lot of LTA's are also long distance. Therefore reducing the probability of getting "caught". No chance meetings, no unexplained absences, no having to make regular excuses. The risk appears lower and therefore easier to justify (it was for me). "I'm not doing anything wrong" mentality.

The irony in this situation is this; the distance would cause frustration as the bond became stronger(time differences, lack of opportunity to "meet" etc). The frustration lead to many disagreements and aggression. Surely, this would be too much hassle and it would be easier all round to end the drama? For some reason, the "challenge" now becomes the centre and the focus of the relationship.

One other theme that is very true for me at least and for many in this thread, is the fact that the AP becomes part of your daily life. They are intertwined with your daily activities, what you had for dinner, what activities the kids have that day, what movie you watched last night.

For two lonely and desperate people, that type of attention can lead to distorted thinking. The importance of mundane activities is magnified and given relevance. This is important for someone who already "hates their life".

What makes an A go on so long? Essentially the fact that it can. Sounds simple enough I know, but that seems to be a universal answer. It goes on because it can.

Note, NONE of the themes have any direct connection to the BS. It has nothing to do with them. The conditions present that allow a LTA to go on for as long as it does is ALL about the AP's. The BS is just another "compartment" in this double, twisted, deceitful life that the wayward lives for so long.

Thank you Trying33 for that last post. You made some really good points in there. Like you, I also think that the AP is also a colleague helps fuel this machine.

I have little understanding of his biz (and truth be known, I find it a bit "dry"). She was able to talk about his biz, answer questions, make comments and helpful suggestions, perhaps even inspire. Things I simply could not do. I remember finding one ego stroking email between them that referred to something he could put in his speech (the same speech he felt compelled to mention her name in) and I thought: what is that? I have no clue.

So, while I believe that the BS has nothing to do with the A. The fact that I had no comfort level in his line of work, worked to her adv. and likely thrilled him even more - or at least brought him comfort.

I get sad thinking about all this and since its Monday morning I will stop for now.

But I do appreciate very much these threads. In fact, you wrote something a month or two back...I think it was called, "Permission to Cheat". I asked my H to read that.

LA

LA44,

I feel quite ashamed and embarrassed having such a candid discussion with a BS (especially when the circumstances are similar). It makes me feel like a low life and a disgrace for a human being when I've not been raised that way or have never acted so immorally prior to this A. This by no means is a pity party and I'm not expecting sympathy. Just being honest.

It's almost like I feel like apologising to you on behalf of your H's AP and the rest of "my people" (that was supposed to bring a smile to your face, don't know if it did!)

Anyway, I will take this opportunity to say my xAP never verbally disrespected his BW to me. It was obvious he loved her and his family a lot. He always tried to do the "right thing" by ending it as did I, unfortunately, as I said before, 2 cowards and selfish people trying to do the "right" thing is not as common as it should be.

It ended when it couldn't go on any longer. When there was too much to lose. Realising what's really important. Bursting of the fantasy bubble.

Leading me nicely to the answer of why does a LTA go on for as long as it does; because it CAN. It ends when it CAN'T go on any more.

Another theme seems to be the distance. It would appear a lot of LTA's are also long distance.

Not really “long distance”, but far enough. MOW lives 80miles away and not far from a main motorway, under 2hrs door to door. Where she lived was very convenient, as was her job – she would/could be away overnight on seminars and talks. The possibility of getting caught almost nil. I was at home with four children.

Other points to consider were that communication was through the mobile phone fWH used for work and all costs (hotels, dinners, etc) were paid for on the company credit card.

Another thing was MOW was nothing to do with the rest of our lives. No work connection and no common friends. It was completely separate. It was only because she wanted it to become permanent and not a “sordid little affair” that it ended. It had stopped being friendly and became threatening and so fWH felt compelled to confess in order for it to finish. If MOW had stuck to the “agreement”, the affair would probably still be going on today and I would be none the wiser as before d-day.

Thank you for your insight, Trying33. As you observed, the MOM generally has no intention of leaving his wife and I think this especially so in a LTA. Which brings me to yet another reason it went on for so long: he thought I would never know – what I didn’t know wouldn’t hurt me.

Your thead is thought provoking.

eta: Cross posting – you already made the point:

“It ended when it couldn't go on any longer. When there was too much to lose. Realising what's really important. Bursting of the fantasy bubble.” Very true.

[This message edited by UKgirl at 7:25 AM, June 24th (Monday)]

No, no, please do not feel an apology is in order. Honestly, Trying33 and I mean this with my whole heart, I am grateful for the insight.

I find this forum very helpful - insightful. The last thing I would want is for you to feel ashamed for expressing yourself.

Ok?

On the other hand, I am not sure ONS or a few short lived A's would make me feel any better. I realized it didn't matter how many OW's and how long it lasted to the extent of damage to our marriage.

I think where I was going with my correlation question was when the WS spouse says "it didn't mean anything". I've always imagined the impact on my M if my H ever cheated would be more if he "loved" her rather than if he effed someone in a bar somewhere. Obviously, I mean no disrespect to those who have been betrayed and ultimately it doesn't matter but I was wondering about the impact and the length of recovery when the A was longer and knowing that there must have been feelings involved not just sex.

My H has requested to not talk about my A. It's not spoken about and I find myself wondering often the impact it's had on him. He knows the length but no other details. He doesn't want to know. He hasn't asked if it's gone beyond an EA onto a PA. I sometimes wonder if he knew the details and if the length of it would negate the last part of our marriage.

The second part was the AP. She was emotionally undemanding. Didn't want him to leave me. Was intensely private and didn't share her deepest feelings/emotions. Was basically happy with a fuckbuddy who could keep her company. (She was single but had a long distance BF. Apparently her first reaction when WH split upw her was , "Now we wont be able to do all that fun stuff we'd planned.")

Quite unusual, I must say.

My H has requested to not talk about my A. It's not spoken about and I find myself wondering often the impact it's had on him.

I find it interesting that this approach to dealing with an A (not talking about it) seems to be taken moreso by the betrayed man, then the betrayed woman.

But that is a whole other thread!

Another thing was MOW was nothing to do with the rest of our lives. No work connection and no common friends. It was completely separate. It was only because she wanted it to become permanent and not a “sordid little affair” that it ended. It had stopped being friendly and became threatening and so fWH felt compelled to confess in order for it to finish. If MOW had stuck to the “agreement”, the affair would probably still be going on today and I would be none the wiser as before d-day.

I can totally relate to this. Sounds like it's quite a familiar stance in LTA's.

Someone said LTA's are a different animal. I completely agree. The intricate web of deceit and over-involved lives makes a perfect recipe for stress and basically the man often feeling he has "two wives" which is something he never bargained for. It's not what he signed up for. Alas, women latch on emotionally and the man finds himself trapped but conflicted as he doesn't want to let either go. Eventually, something has to give and thankfully the A ends.

Had I had not become so demanding and "emotional" my xAP often stated he wanted this arrangement to "last forever". Anyway. Whatever. Makes me sick writing this.

btw, LA44, my xAP's father also betrayed his mother but he went one step further. He married his other woman (who also happened to be AP's mother's best friend )and had two wives officially (they live in a country where this is legal). So xAP's father had 2 wives and two lives. Apparently it was a long-term affair w wife number 2 (before she came wife) and he made an honest woman out of her and married her. AP always said he would never hurt his family the way his father did. Instead he shagged his way around town

Good Morning Trying33, etAl.

It is interesting to see this questioned from the WS perspective.

Nearly all of my FWW’s OM were, or started out, as co-workers. All were in the same town or near by. Her work required various hours, outings, and meeting with people, and she used this to her advantage with her As. She worked for the last OM, so they would stay together when they travelled.

It has been my experience that discomfort or fear of emotional intimacy was a factor in FWW’s LTAs. FWW had a “5-year plan” to leave me for many years, but never got past the date other people stage in her plan. She was comfortable with the relationship at an emotional distance. Talking/texting everyday during the drive into and home from work, and during the day while she was out and about. FWW valued that her LTA partner was not looking for more than an A. Prior to her last OM, she broke off with a previous OM because he began to demand more time and commitment from her. With her last OM he was happy to text/chat, and meet him every few weeks for sex. Again, her job facilitated being out of the loop for a few hours in an afternoon while they went to his house or a hotel.

Many of FWW’s OM would talk of them being together someday, but she saw them as people to “date” once she eventually left me. She was not looking for security or a trade-up, just men who would prove to her that she was desirable, attractive, and not at fault for the problems in her life.

I learned after dday that FWW was very skilled at compartmentalizing. When she was talking to or blowing OM she was in that compartment, then she could put the lid on it and not think of it while doing family things or work. I believe that this also was a big factor in her ability to carry on a relationship with an OM for years.

…any correlation between length of an affair and damage done to a marriage

Stabbed in the back is stabbed in the back. There are two consistent themes I seem to pick up. First, is that there is no “safe” time of the year. All holidays, birthdays, anniversaries, etc are tainted by the multi-year betrayal. Second is that because of the long period of the A, and the amount of time passed from the beginning of the A to the end of TT the WS is simply unable to recall many details. By the time of FWW’s dday, her current A had become routine, and it was years since any of her previous A’s. There was not much ability for her to explain what she was thinking or how things started because by dday that was all ancient history.

Finally, I think that some (not all or even most) short term A's or ONS can be a case of WS getting caught on the slippery slope and ending up in an A unintentionally. OTOH, I believe that a longterm A indicates a problem within the WS. An attachment disorder, a personality disorder, an addiction, something that allows them to persist in betrayal for so long. As the scales fall from our eyes after dday, many BS see in our own relationships with our WS that defect that allowed them to be "comfortable" with a LTA. That defect, whatever it is, must be identified and addressed for there to be any hope of R and a healthier relationship.