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Newest Member: StrongAndCapable (44279)

Reconciliation Post Reply     Print Topic    
User Topic: Tried to talk last night to Wbf
still2suspicious
♀ Member
Member # 31722
Default  Posted: 5:01 PM, July 18th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

"Last night wasn't about me putting my needs over your needs. You asked me what was going through my head when it happened and I've already told you. I feel like you are beating me up when I've already apologized so much. I've done nothing but try to be an open book to you, be sweet, caring and put you first. Yes its okay for you to not have forgotten about it... And I'm sorry I did it. But I don't want to constantly feel like I'm going to lose you or I have to explain everything over and over and apologize over and over. You know I'm here for you. You know I'm sorry and I'm willing to help you when you're down. But I can't change the past and that is what you want me to do."

I got this same shit spiel. If you take a step back, and read it again, notice how many "I's" are in it?? That whole speech is about HIM!

I am sorry LG, but I don't see a lot of dig-down-deep remorse yet. He is doing some good things, but they are the easier parts.

I don't yet get the feeling he's got a clue that there is a hard part to this.

This is still so new, and raw, for you. Like the WS's handbook we BS's also have one. And you are quoting from it (we ALL did). "feel guilty" "don't want to push to hard" etc. Some how we feel that WE need to twist ourselves inside out for them! Which, when you hit the anger stage, you say "HELL NO". You will get there, I promise. And, if he is whining, and complaining, about this process now, what is he gonna do when you hit that stage??

A gentle 2x4:

YOU need to stop apologizing. You need to state what YOU need from him. Maybe write them all down so you two can discuss them on your weekly talk (KUDOS to him for setting that up!!) Not only will the breaks do him good, it will also help you too. BUT he has to understand that sometimes, just sometimes, our mouths can't wait a week!

Keep posting here. You will get thru this, and we will be there every step of the way.

Sending strength.

PS: When you need those bitch boots, SI has a closet full of them!! guaranteed to fit all of us!


Me: BS
Him: WH
DDay: LTEA

Posts: 1265 | Registered: Apr 2011 | From:
Lonelygirl10
♀ Member
Member # 39850
Default  Posted: 6:25 PM, July 18th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I feel like I'm spiraling down a black hole tonight. Our R was going so well last week. I felt really good about things, and where we were at. Two triggers happened this week for me, and now I don't know how to pull myself back out of this hole. He asked me just now if I needed the weekend to myself, and that it was okay if I do. I immediately started feeling like he didn't want to see me, and now even if he does see me, I'll feel like he thinks he has to. I don't know how to turn off these feelings.

I have already hit the anger stage, and passed it. We went to Las Vegas in June, which was a disaster. There were half-dressed women everywhere. The last night, I ended up in the bathroom crying and screaming at him. So, we got past the anger stage, and I thought we were moving into acceptance. Now it seems I'm back to feeling sad.

I'm not sure if I'm posting in the right forum since I'm new. We are trying to R, but having problems I guess.

I emailed him the WS article that someone pointed out. When I read it, I almost cried because it's exactly how I feel. Hopefully he will read it and learn something.

I almost want to put all my feelings in a letter to him. All my questions. All my doubts. All the images. But I'm not sure if that will be helpful or damaging. What do you think?


29 Bgf
Dday: April 2013
Relationship ended: January 2014

Posts: 1034 | Registered: Jul 2013
Markone
♂ Member
Member # 30291
Default  Posted: 7:00 PM, July 18th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Email? Yes, if nothing else it will most likely do you some good if you're able to express what you feel on paper. Send it here first if you want guidance. But establishing your needs on paper or otherwise is important. Creating boundaries is important too so you know where you stand and what you will not accept (probably will be tested at times - like the next Vegas trip that gets planned- would you be ok with that? What if it's just the guys?)


Black hole? Yes it does feel like that sometimes. A rollercoaster too. It's all part of the normal process.

Hang in there. We are here for you.


DD 11/28/10
Me (BH)
Her (WS)
Separated and filed (7/13)

Posts: 410 | Registered: Dec 2010
Lonelygirl10
♀ Member
Member # 39850
Default  Posted: 7:39 PM, July 18th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Creating boundaries is important too so you know where you stand and what you will not accept (probably will be tested at times - like the next Vegas trip that gets planned- would you be ok with that? What if it's just the guys?)

No, I can't imagine him going to Vegas without me. It was bad enough when he was with me. Just the thought of him going with his guy friends causes my chest to hurt.

Is that something that gets better over time, or do you create different boundaries than you had before the A?


29 Bgf
Dday: April 2013
Relationship ended: January 2014

Posts: 1034 | Registered: Jul 2013
Lonelygirl10
♀ Member
Member # 39850
Default  Posted: 8:21 PM, July 18th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Well, I sent him a very long email with everything in it. All my thoughts, questions, fears. I was terrified to hit send. Hopefully it doesn't push him away.


29 Bgf
Dday: April 2013
Relationship ended: January 2014

Posts: 1034 | Registered: Jul 2013
heartache101
♀ Member
Member # 26465
Default  Posted: 8:34 PM, July 18th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

There is beeautiful people everywhere running around half naked.. He just needs good boundaries.

I hope the email is taken well by him..
Keep us informed.


There are degrees to which you let people back into your life and degrees to which you let them back into your heart-which, of course, are not the same thing

Posts: 3185 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: Indiana
doesitgetbetter
♀ Member
Member # 18429
Default  Posted: 9:47 PM, July 18th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Oh lonely, the anger stage usually hits much later, like around the 9 month mark or so. Not always, but most often. That little bit of anger we feel close to DDay is NOTHING compared to the real rage stage.


DDay - Dec '07
Me - BS
Him - FWS
Us - Committed
May 18, 2010 - I forgave him fully!
"Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction." Isaiah 48:10

Posts: 3859 | Registered: Feb 2008
Lonelygirl10
♀ Member
Member # 39850
Default  Posted: 9:56 PM, July 18th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

He read the email, and his response was:

"Honestly at some points I feel like you want me to give up. I feel like I'm trying just as hard as I was from day 1, but I'm just spinning my wheels. I feel like you are making me want to give up so that way you can say you tried but I couldn't do it because I didn't love you enough."

We talked a little more, but he was mostly giving one word responses. I commented on it, and he said he needed to be alone tonight. So I'm trying to respect what he needs. But my emotions are all over the place, and I need him to reassure me.

Oh lonely, the anger stage usually hits much later, like around the 9 month mark or so. Not always, but most often. That little bit of anger we feel close to DDay is NOTHING compared to the real rage stage.

That scares me.


29 Bgf
Dday: April 2013
Relationship ended: January 2014

Posts: 1034 | Registered: Jul 2013
WoundedOpus
♀ Member
Member # 39521
Default  Posted: 6:04 AM, July 19th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I only have a minute (and I'm typing on my iPad), so I'm not able to fully respond like I'd like to, but...

Please, if you haven't already don't so, go read the post someone else mentioned; the things all WS need to know (or something to that effect). Then have him read it over and over again.

Also, in reading your posts, it seems that you have some issies with boundaries and how they affect us. (I say that lovingly, as someone who is just beginingnto understand them myself). I never truly understood boundaries or how that played a role in my dealing with his A, but decided to read a book that seems to get recommended frequently on SI...and OMG, I haven't even gotten to the meat of the book and I feel it's been life altering. So many of the things you've said you've felt and done are so similar to myself. I am 5 years out, I believe if I'd had SI and these tools (knowledge), I wouldn't still be sitting in the same place I was 5 years ago! Nothing has changed in my marriage, I hate to see anyone possibly on the same path I was.

Here is the link to Boundaries: When to Say Yes, How to Say No

http://www.amazon.com/Boundaries-When-Say-Yes-ebook/dp/B000FC2K9W/ref=sr_1_1?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1374230958&sr=1-1&keywords=Boundaries%3A+when+to+say+no

((((LG10))))


Me: BW 37
Him: WH 38
(DDay: 2/2008)
13 years, 5 kids...Six years of Limbo

“I don't want to get to the end of my life and find that I have just lived the length of it. I want to have lived the width of it as well." ~ Diane Ackerman


Posts: 178 | Registered: Jun 2013
Lonelygirl10
♀ Member
Member # 39850
Default  Posted: 6:38 AM, July 19th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

He responded to my email last night, and answered my questions. It felt horrible to read the stuff. I almost felt like I did on Dday. My hands went numb, I started shaking. I'm grateful he answered the questions, but now I wish I didn't know the answers.

He had a ONS 3 months after we met, and then a 4 month affair 8 months after the ONS. On Dday, I focused on the affair instead of ONS. The details he gave me last night in the email about ONS were ALOT different than the brief details he had given me about it on Dday. On Dday, he had made it seem like it happened because he was drunk and couldn't get home, so he stayed with this girl to just sleep and it happened. But in the email last night, he said that he knew before they went out drinking that he was going to stay at her place. To me, that means it was premeditated instead of a drunk thing, which makes it worse

How do I deal with this new information? I don't want to "punish" him by finally being honest with me in this email, but I'm also having a hard time with this new information. How do you deal with new information 4 months after Dday in a constructive manner?


29 Bgf
Dday: April 2013
Relationship ended: January 2014

Posts: 1034 | Registered: Jul 2013
Lonelygirl10
♀ Member
Member # 39850
Default  Posted: 7:08 AM, July 19th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Also, in reading your posts, it seems that you have some issies with boundaries and how they affect us.

Thank you for the link. Do you think I have too strict boundaries, or not enough boundaries?


29 Bgf
Dday: April 2013
Relationship ended: January 2014

Posts: 1034 | Registered: Jul 2013
WoundedOpus
♀ Member
Member # 39521
Default  Posted: 9:24 AM, July 19th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I realize I don't know the ins-and-outs of your relationship and don't have no information about it before the A, so if I'm way off base, fell free to tell me so (and to take a hike ...

Even people with the best boundaries will have those tested when faced with this kind of hurt and betrayal and the inevitable roller coaster of emotions that comes with it. We will analyze and question our WS's thought process leading up to the A, the days/weeks after DD, and the months following. We will question ours as well.

It is normal and natural to examine our reactions to the A and how we choose to handle them, drawing conclusions to their effectiveness: ("Is what I'm doing having the desired impact"?, "Am I making healthy choices"? "What are the alternative ways in which I could respond to this that will bring about my desired outcome, while not compromising myself"?, etc).

Someone with intact boundaries will be open to examining their behavior and making appropriate changes when/where needed to maintain a healthy and happy self, in such a way that does not compromise those boundaries which would create an unhealthy, unhappy self.

Here is a table that lists the contrasting characteristics of Strong Boundaries versus Weak Boundaries:
http://www.yourpotential.net/3/5/A_Checklist_on_Boundaries_in_a_Relationship.html

While most people would not exhibit every single characteristic of one over the other, if you're heavily relating to one side, you can determine where you fall.

For me, I exhibit every single characteristics save 1 of a person who has Given Up My Boundaries in a Relationship. The sad reality is, when you 'give them up', it means the one you gave them to 'takes them in'.

Examples -

ME
* Do not notice (your own) unhappiness since enduring is your concern.
* Alter your behavior, plans, or opinions to fit the current moods or circumstances of another (live reactively)
* Are enmeshed in a drama that is beyond your control.

HIM
* Does not notice (my) unhappiness since he is forced to enduring nothing.
* Their moods and circumstances causes another to alter their behavior, plans, or opinions. (Meaning, they are never forced to reevaluate their behaviors, and accept accountability for how it in turns affects others or circumstances)
* Are enmeshed in a drama that is completely in their control. (This is referencing I think every day life, but of course especially applies during an affair.

1. They created the drama, they had all the control during the A 2. They hold all the control after; Meaning, R is based on: their timeline, how and when the A is discussed and when you are done discussing it, how hurt you should be, how it should (or more to the point shouldn't) affect you now and long term, what information is needed and given, their concern is how the process and outcome affects them, they dictate your requirements for forgiveness and trust building, they determine when they've done enough to earn those back.

The book I linked to in my previous post goes into much more detail and truly helps in understanding boundaries and how their existence or nonexistence affects us, and (I assume since I haven't finished it :) will help guide me in learning how to fix them!

Only you can determine if boundaries are an issue for you and a problem in your marriage. I feel I see a lot of 'me' in your posts, and since I wish I'd found SI and all of these tools and insights in the early days post DD, I thought I'd share in case you can relate, possibly help you in not being me 5 years later.

And if it turns out this doesn't relate to you, well hopefully the links help somebody!


Me: BW 37
Him: WH 38
(DDay: 2/2008)
13 years, 5 kids...Six years of Limbo

“I don't want to get to the end of my life and find that I have just lived the length of it. I want to have lived the width of it as well." ~ Diane Ackerman


Posts: 178 | Registered: Jun 2013
WoundedOpus
♀ Member
Member # 39521
Default  Posted: 12:49 PM, July 19th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

On Dday, he had made it seem like it happened because he was drunk and couldn't get home, so he stayed with this girl to just sleep and it happened. But in the email last night, he said that he knew before they went out drinking that he was going to stay at her place. To me, that means it was premeditated instead of a drunk thing, which makes it worse

How do I deal with this new information? I don't want to "punish" him by finally being honest with me in this email, but I'm also having a hard time with this new information. How do you deal with new information 4 months after Dday in a constructive manner?

Yes, it means it was premeditated, it should mean that to him as well. Since he'd earlier stated otherwise, that makes it another very big lie. Every new lie is a new hurt. So how should you deal with it? You don't pretend it's anything other than exactly what it is. He chose to lie to you on DD to do damage control, protecting him over healing you, that hurts. You have a right to say that and he needs to own the added pain he's caused you. While it's a positive sign that he made a choice to tell you the truth on his own, a bigger sign will be how he handles the fallout from it. You are not 'punishing' him for being honest, you are being true to yourself by, allowing yourself to feel the pain, and placing the blame and accountability at his door.

I agree that totally freaking out and going ballistic isn't the 'best' way to handle new information when it's offered (not saying that's how you'd handle it, just giving a possible 'nonconstructive' manner), although not many would find fault if you did, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't handle that with a whole lot of grace. And I get why you would want to be cautious in your approach, as it benefits you to make him feel 'safe' enough to share more if there's something else.

Gently…you can’t join him in the ‘You’re Punishing Him’ mentality. Him seeing your hurt isn’t punishing him, you being allowed feel, express and verbalize your pain isn’t punishing him. You continuing to mistrust him, especially finding out a new truth, and acting accordingly, are not you punishing him. What is his definition of ‘being punished’ by you, what is yours?

Based on his previous attitude, I’m concerned that the only way he’ll see himself as “Not Punished” for this, is if you: ‘Thank him profusely for his honesty, because you really get how scared he was and know how hard it was to tell you”. Adding it to the list of things you really need to stop talking about and asking questions about. And apologizing for bringing up. I hope I’m wrong. I sincerely hope that he sticks to his agreement for regular A talks and allows you to say what you need to and is open to you asking questions repeatedly without getting frustrated and defensive.

And lastly, I really hope that these talks start being about YOU. Markone, pointed out really well, so far, every thing he has to say is filled with I’s...and a whole lot of what you say is filled with HIM's.

Wish you well in this LG10, I hope he starts acting in a way that values and deserves you!


Me: BW 37
Him: WH 38
(DDay: 2/2008)
13 years, 5 kids...Six years of Limbo

“I don't want to get to the end of my life and find that I have just lived the length of it. I want to have lived the width of it as well." ~ Diane Ackerman


Posts: 178 | Registered: Jun 2013
Markone
♂ Member
Member # 30291
Default  Posted: 1:52 PM, July 19th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

LG
I think Wounded gives some very good pointers on boundaries. I, unfortunately, didn't do well and hence one of the reasons "R" didn't work for me. I let my WW dictate what was acceptable to her and I then created my boundaries around them. Duh! Backasswards for sure.

That said, I do think boundaries can change over time. Using the Vegas trip as an example, after rebuilding your trust with him through effective R, you may get to a point where going away with the guys becomes acceptable to you...but anywhere than Vegas. Over time you may say Vegas is Ok but I'd like these reassurances etc etc. Some boundaries may stay in place forever - e,g. no female friends. These are yours to define. How do you want to live?

LG, you're dealing with (IMHO), a manipulative liar. Maybe a passive aggressive person too. Note how it's you that's feeling bad and not wanting to punish him...that comes from his responses like "I've nothing but try to be an open book to you..?" Makes YOU feel bad asking, right?

Well, he hasn't been an "open book" has he? Otherwise the new info on the ONS would not be a surprise to you. He HAS to understand, as an example, that knowing the circumstances around the ONS matter a great deal to you. He currently sees it is as "well, i've already told you about the ONS why do I need to keep talking about it?"..

Well, your answer is - "if you want me to forgive you, you have to answer my questions so I know what to forgive you for.."

Stand strong LG. Do not let him manipulate you like this.


DD 11/28/10
Me (BH)
Her (WS)
Separated and filed (7/13)

Posts: 410 | Registered: Dec 2010
Tearsoflove
♀ Member
Member # 8271
Default  Posted: 3:06 PM, July 19th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I call bullshit on his actually reading "Not Just Friends". He may have carried the book around. He may have opened it a few times. But if he actually read it, you wouldn't be getting this from him:

He said that he doesn't understand why I keep bringing it up. So I tried to explain that I had read some stuff saying that it was good to talk, and that I needed him to talk to me. He said that everyone deals with things differently. And also said that he doesn't see what bringing it up does to help. He said that he feels guilty, and there's no more answers that he can give me. He said that there's no right answer to a question like how he was feeling at the time, and that talking about it just makes it worse. He wants us to put it behind us, and move forward.

Tell him it's time to read it "again" and this time, there will be discussion after each chapter. And that's if you stay with him which, in my opinion, you shouldn't.

[This message edited by Tearsoflove at 3:07 PM, July 19th (Friday)]


"Just because I don't care doesn't mean I don't understand." ~Homer Simpson


Posts: 3968 | Registered: Sep 2005
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