But tonight I actually laughed out loud reading your lists of accusations. They are ridiculous.
Thank you for finally putting this into perspective for me. My problem is that he won't spew it all out in court at once. He's too wily for that. He'll choose whatever has the most legs at that time. For example, he gave up on his key logger accusations after I had to hire a criminal law firm to prove them 100 percent wrong. (I had to hire the criminal law firm because he was threatening to file criminal charges against me AND my lawyers. He created so much chaos, and even my attorneys were scared of him and all the potential bad publicity.) I think of all that money I spent - that could have been put towards debt, or a new place to live.
And yes, I should add that HE was abusive to me, he mismanaged our assets and nearly bankrupted us making nearly $20k in secret ATM withdrawals, he's an alcoholic, etc.
Wow. I am truly divorcing a Narc.
I didn't cause this. I can't control this. I can't cure this.....
They installed the buttons,
(((ChippedNotBroken))) Good luck with the RO tomorrow. I think you are remarkable - so brave.
I think of all that money I spent - that could have been put towards debt, or a new place to live.
I think of that too. Because mine fought over everything right down to the candlesticks. And then when the divorce was over, he filed a civil suit against me and my attorey's, the police, my psychiatrist, the county attorney's office, and who ever else had a hand in having him prosecuted for violating my protection order. He claimed we were ALL lying and out to get him. More $ spent. Insane.
However, I have said this before and I will say it again. It was the BEST money I ever spent just to be rid of that idiot.
When another woman takes your husband,
sometimes the best thing you can do for
yourself is to LET HER HAVE the worthless
OC born 2001 (I didn't know)
Remarried 2008 (Happy!)
But this resonates so much
I hit a point where two opposing feelings collided. One half seeing and feeling the effects of improvement and yearning for more, the other feeling the ache of our/my denied reality and desperately needing to stop that pain. 5.5 years post DDay I was starting to feel like Jekyll and Hide, honestly worried I was bi-polar and seriously worried I was going mental! I would be fine (as fine as you can be when trying to repress all emotions based in reality), we would seem happy and doing good, then BAM! he'd do something or act some way that resembled his past behavior, and ALL of those repressed memories and ALL of the emotions and feelings would hit me like a freight train. I'd flip from raging anger to major depression and then back again in the span of 5 minutes. This would go on anywhere from 1 day-1 week, he'd act like he didn't have a clue what my problem was, guilt me in to feeling responsible for why our marriage wasn't better, and hand me the responsibility of fixing this problem. I'd work to go back into denial and the cycle would repeat itself. I couldn't take it anymore.
I'd pretty much decided that I'm going to talk to him (he's been working away for the last 4 weeks). I cant repress my emotions and feelings anymore, but I'm so afraid of his rages.
I don't know if he's NPD but he's certainly screwed my head up until I don't know what's true and what isn't anymore. The last 3 months of last year were hell with most of them spent with him refusing to talk at all to me, literally, the loneliness was so bad. The last 4 weeks with him not here have been bliss and the thought of going back to that hell again makes me feel sick. That's why I'd decided to sit him down and talk to him. Tell him I'm done if he doesn't go to MC with me and tell me the truth.
But this worries me
I finally faced reality and stupidly tried to force him as well. ALL of his abusive behavior came back!
I don't know what's wrong with me, it's not even always that I'm too scared to ask him a question but that I don't want him to feel hurt or upset or embarrassed I don't want to put him in an uncomfortable situation. I find it crazy when I type it out. So ashamed
But I'm scared too. He either twists my words so cleverly so that I can't think of a response or he says the most absurd things so I can't think of a response. Then he loses his temper and doesn't speak to me for days/weeks.
The last conversation we had before he went to work went like this.....
Me: Candy crush on my kindle stops working when the internet goes off
Him: It can't do, it's nothing to do with the internet, mine doesn't do that (he doesn't have a kindle)
Me: Well every time the net goes off it doesn't work
Him: IT IS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE INTERNET,IT IS IMPOSSIBLE
Me: Ok lets leave it, I can't see how it's related either so it must just be a coincidence.
Him: How can it be a fucking coincidence, it is not linked!!!
Me: That's what a coincidence is, something that appears to be linked but isn't.
Him: So is it a coincidence that mug is blue and that beer can is green then???
he leaves me so that I can't even think of a response
He went to work the next day and barely spoke to me since, although he did send a mail a few days ago asking if we can talk when he's back. He's realized that I've not sent him lots of emails begging him to talk to me like I usually would do.
Anyone any tips on how to stand up for myself? How to give him my list of 'demands' and draw the line in the sand?
The other side of him is so different, so loving, affectionate, tactile and caring that when he's being nice to me I wonder if I've imagined a lot of it, but I keep a journal and it's all there to read
Maybe its because of that nice side that I want to know I've done everything I could before I walk away
I've read the last few pages, so sad to read some of the stories and craziness
[This message edited by Toodevoted at 12:01 PM, February 12th (Wednesday)]
You asked how you can stand up for yourself and present your demands...
but you also said that you are afraid of his rages. You are walking on eggshells-afraid to upset him. You said it has been blissful having him gone the last 4 weeks.
He has not been truthful with you and he punishes you with his passive aggressive silences.
I understand the desire to feel like you have done everything possible to save the marriage, but you cannot reconcile a marriage on your own. You can't force him to do what he needs to do. You can't beg him to do it. You can't "nice" him into doing it. A marriage counselor can't make him do it either. He has to have within himself the sincere desire to do the hard work it takes to fix what he has broken. I'm not sure any NPD is really capable of this. I also don't think that you can make any real attempt at R when you are afraid and unsafe in the relationship.
I would urge you to seek IC to better understand the dynamics of your relationship, set proper boundaries, and figure out what you can do to maintain your sense of safety while possibly opening up some lines of communication with him.
Everybody, soon or late, sits down to a banquet of consequences.
~Robert Louis Stevenson
This is tough stuff. There seems to be very few of us able or willing to do NPDR. Whatever you do, don' t get hung up on the R forum because NPDR is not the same. Here are some tips that have helped me.
1) Work on you get into IC. You need to figure out your issues and why you have been willing to accept his bullying and not stand up for yourself.
2) You need to have high self esteem to stay with an NPD.
3) don't believe anything he says about you, always remember he has the problem.
4). Don't buy into the nice loving stuff either. He uses both bullying and love bombs for his own purposes. To get what he wants. They both are manipulations.
5) Dont talk to him about any of this.
6) use whatever you can to get him MC but remember MC will not change him. You are the one who needs to change.
7) of course he is empathetic to others in public. It makes him look like the good guy
8). If you can see him for who he really is and accept his limitations than try but remember it is a long shot
9) never stay if you are unable to assert yourself and are mot safe.
10) he will never be cured but you may be able to manage him
The following website has helped me but they are not professionals. All professional will tell you there is no cure. Believe them. WWW.narcissismcured.com
Hang in there. This is so, so hard. I do it because I do care about him but more importantly I have some control in M and none in D. I make no mistake to think this control is permanent.
[This message edited by eyesrnowopen at 8:25 AM, February 12th (Wednesday)]
Make no mistake, once you see him for who he is and stand up for yourself, he will become more bully and less loving. You see his manipulation is not working. Once he sees you mean business, he may back down. This is the part that most shocked me, so be courageous.
You need to become strong to be able to get through this and then there is no guarantee it will work. So you need to fully prepared to walk away. You should never stay with an NPD who remains physically or mentally abusive. Don't ever second guess yourself and always show strength not weakness. They can smell your weaknesses and use them against you.
I know this seems incredible. I would never in a million years think I would be in this type of situation. Also, let me point out that it isn't all bad. When my WH is loving and we are having a great time, it is wonderful but I always now see both the good and the bad for what it is. I see him as I would a rebellious teen who acts out. He needs love and attachment but also strong boundaries and consequences. The difference is my teen will outgrow thier episodes. I'm not so sure about my WH. I'm in uncharted waters I think here. I have read all these posts and very few seem to be staying or have stayed long term. I could move to D also at any time. This disorder makes it highly likely he will cheat again.
Grieve the M you thought you had. Cry for the love you will not get from him. Give up on real remorse, the truth and empathy for what he did to you. You may have to settle for what he is capable of. Mourn the loss, and if your honest you never really had the relationship or the H you thought you had.
[This message edited by eyesrnowopen at 12:47 PM, February 12th (Wednesday)]
I hope your day went well.
Then all day this sadness, on the verge of tears. The mind going in circles, remembering, conversations unhad.
It feels like dday #1 all over again today, but worse because there is more.
I keep remembering the first time he turned on me. It was Valentine's Day, our 2nd together. I was not busy with work, it was winter, there are no shows in the winter.
I spent the day, while he was at work, making Valentine's Day. I painted him a card, I made a special dinner, I walked to the store to buy the ingredients because I did not have a car. I wanted to make it special.
He came home, I could feel the tension but didn't understand it, it was the first time.
He started saying awful things to me about being lazy and how he was not going to work and have me hang around the house all day doing nothing.
He stormed out and went to my workshop and just about threw work material at me. "you are supposed to be building inventory, what are you doing, nothing!"
I felt so ashamed, I hated that he thought that of me. It was not true at all, I worked so hard. I worked so hard that he would tell me, "enough, you have done enough for today".
He proceeded to go into the other room and eat the dinner I made, drink beer and watch porn as I sat in the other room crying and trying to paint. Trying to be good.
My God how that memory hurts. The fact that I believed him hurts. The fact that I took that in as the truth of me, it hurts so much.
I want to go back and grab her, shake her and say get out, get out now, this is not how you should be treated, you are such a good person, get away from him.
That is what I would say to someone I loved. I believed him because I thought he loved me. He had treated me so well before that I believed him. I thought I had done something wrong, I thought that I had disappointed him.
It happened again, of course, that was predetermined, I had no control over that. No matter how hard I tried or what I changed, what I did or did not do, I was always going to not be good enough. I was always not going to be enough.
I twisted myself like a pretzel.
Now, it shows. I hate that people can tell I am different, a little odd. That is how I feel right now, defective, damaged, twisted.
this really hurts
I would now like to be known as Can!
dday October 21,2012
dday December 20, 2013
attempted R, it was all a lie
I am having difficulty putting all that is going on in my head into words. He is playing the same old games and I am pretending to play along.
And at the same time trying to get my shit together so that I can leave when/if I have to. (I know it's a matter of when not if...but I still WANT him to want better, to do better, to be better. I KNOW I can't make him want the same.)
Feeling strong in my convictions today, but frustrated that this is my current reality.
Thanks again so much for being here. Wish I could be more supportive (feel guilty that I'm taking more than I'm giving). I promise to give back when I can.
It is so hard living this double life. I am so exhausted.
((Tribe)) cause you can't have too many hugs when you're going through crazy like this!
I read that NPD can't show empathy, but he seems to be able to when it's colleagues, just not to me. To everyone else he's the nicest guy in the world. They tell me he loves me so much he talks about me at work all of the time, how I'm so lucky to have that sort of devotion
I think this is quite common. When I first met my STBX, everyone thought he was the most charming, funny, kind, brilliant, sweet guy/fabulous loving husband. Some people still think of him this way, even though he's deteriorated quite a bit.
It's easy to fake being nice to co-workers. Lots of people appear perfectly fine to casual acquaintances, and then they go home and beat their wives, or whatever.
And remember, NPDs care SO MUCH about what people think of them! It's everything to them. So if they're highly functioning, they will play a great game at work.
Mine was like this. Then he started getting into lots of interpersonal conflicts with clients. I could not understand it. He was always so well-liked . . .
What a mess. Anyhow, it doesn't matter how he treats others. It matters how he treats you. (((HUGS)))
Not so with XNPDH. His only "friends" were current co-workers or friends of mine or their spouses.
I am wondering if any of you have noticed this too with your NPD.
What is this that I'm feeling now? Relief? An awareness that I'm not as crazy as he had me believing? Or just the comfort of seeing that others have been through similar trials and are capable of not only getting through the craziness, but able to truly live again?
This is just how I am feeling, too. I really can relate to everything I've read in this thread and it is a huge relief. This is my first post in this forum, but have been reading for a couple of weeks. Thank you everyone for sharing your experiences and feelings. Thank you, thank you, thank you x's a million I am currently working hard on un-conditioning myself to his abuse and getting out of this utterly messed up marriage.
Hug and good mo-jo to all of you dear people.
Mine has no long term friends and was actually an issue between us because I have really close friends from all the major stages in my life. He was jealous of it and at his lower moments would even recognize it and asked for advice from me but of course would not listen.
Classic example, the best man at our wedding was getting remarried (his first wife cheated) and NPDX decided to go do a bicycle race instead of going to the wedding. My douche ex then wondered why his "best friend" would not come to his 40th birthday party And no surprise they are longer friends.
Even my girls notice that he does not have any friends and that he has totally merged with OW's life and her friends have become his friends. It's actually kind of sad but not my burden to bear anymore and its a relief. He has even tried to garner sympathy from the girls about the lack of friends...pathetic.
I have a lot friends, old and new, and a very close family. It's almost a guarantee that he will act out in a passive aggressive way towards me when we are around any of my family or friends.
But, the jig is up for him now and he won't get that opportunity anymore. I know it's one of the things that's driving him most crazy right now. Another failed relationship, and more people that will disappear from his life. Poor guy
I just read the most concise description of NPD spouses recently on Medical News Today. I think it's okay for me to cut and paste part of it here - it really sums everything up for me. And it's going to help me in court when I have to sit there and explain how I got myself into this mess in the first place. People have a hard time understanding how I married such a hideous person. I see it in their eyes. They never saw him at his most charming, successful time.
I thought it might comfort others here, especially people who are new - explains how we got involved at the beginning, and how they fool the rest of the world. Here it is:
While victims of Narcissists are generally codependents, most have no idea how they got in this situation, because in the early stages of the relationship the Narcissistic person can be the most charming, Academy Award winning actor or actress (according to the DSM-IV, 50-75% of narcissists are men), of the century.
The early days of the dating is fast, furious, and vastly romantic. Oftentimes marriage proposals come within a few weeks. The "victim" sees the narcissist as the "Perfect Partner". She's never met someone so wonderful in her lifetime and falls head-over-heels in love. The two go on to live happily ever after - or so she thinks - until the "real" partner surfaces. The once wonderful Dr. Jekyll turns into the dangerous Mr. Hyde who quickly instills fear, anxiety, uncertainty, and total confusion to the relationship.
The change can be quick and powerful or slow and insidious.
We are all way too familiar with overt narcissists: those abusive husbands who send thousands of battered women to the emergency room each year. They feel it is their God-given right to beat, abuse, and otherwise threat their partner in whatever method they deem necessary and no one can tell them otherwise.
Then there is the verbally abusive and controlling narcissist - the one who uses emotional abuse as his weapon of choice. He tells his victim who she can see, what time she needs to be home, and when she can go to bed. Or in the case of Jamie, whose husband makes her recite every day, "I'm only worth 29 cents - the price of a bullet," he erodes her self-worth to nothing to keep her under his control.
Who else could possible want such a worthless woman as she? With that belief, she will never leave him for good, although she makes many brief attempts to do so. She always returns. The brainwashing that continues day after day is emotionally exhausting, draining, and vastly unhealthy.
Yet almost worse is the "Stealth Narcissist," so sinister and silent in his ability to drive his partner crazy that she doesn't suspect anything bad is happening until it's too late. He is the master of the little digs - "Honey, why on earth would you cook eggs in butter? NO ONE does it that way. What's wrong with you?" Or, "If you'd only do what I say then we'd both be happy."
He issues the "silent treatment" when he is slighted, punishing his family by ignoring them for hours, leaving them wondering what they did "wrong" to make him act this way. He may "forget" birthday or Christmas presents, year after year. He may show up hours late and his partner is just supposed to understand, with no explanation even offered. He may have another woman on the side and feel quite entitled to do so.
Yet, to those outside his inner kingdom he looks like a saint. He probably is president of the Rotary, volunteers at a food bank, and contributes regularly to charity - all to attain the image of being the admired Superman of his community.
No matter which type of narcissist he is, the end result is the same - a slow, insidious, breaking down of the self-esteem of his victims until there's next to nothing left, at which point, the narcissist will frequently throw his partner out in order to look for someone new and full of life to make his next target. Leaving his victim an emotional wreck wondering what she did to destroy their once "perfect" relationship.
The Narcissist himself rarely changes. After all, if you believe you're God-like, you must be perfect. Why should you change your behavior for anyone else? Yet the biggest secret is that deep inside, he loathes himself, and is desperate that no one find out who the "real" person is inside his tough, outer shell.
I read that NPD can't show empathy, but he seems to be able to when it's colleagues, just not to me. To everyone else he's the nicest guy in the world. They tell me he loves me so much he talks about me at work all of the time, how I'm so lucky to have that sort of devotion.
Everyone who knows my WH thinks he's the best man ever and that I'm sooo lucky to have a husband like him. One of my friends mentioned that her husband loves him to death and thinks so highly of him because he's the only man he knows that NEVER says a bad thing or complains about his wife. If we're around other people he's the most devoted and loving husband, dotes on me and sings my praises. My H is a high functioning NPD that cares greatly what others think of him, he not only wants to be seen as a good husband, but wants everyone to think he has the perfect wife, perfect marriage and perfect little family.
I don't know your story but that's great news for anyone, especially someone dealing with an NPD...hoping that he continues to be agreeable!!
So many times I too find myself wishing I could go back and shake her! You mentioned in your last post to me how young I am (38), I was just 27 when we got married. Looking back, it was maybe 1-2 years later when I first started to 'feel' something, that something was off or not quite right. I've learned a LOT about myself in the last few years, I'm not at all surprised that instead of standing up for myself and walking away if he didn't change, that I went into 'pretzel' mode. Today, walking away is exactly what I would do, but back then I had 3 children back to back instead :/
I know we all read so much about our H and their issues, but what has helped me the most was instead dissecting and learning about myself. Second time I'm recommending 'Women Who Love Too Much' (but I'm sure not the last, LOL). By the middle of the book it was like a switch flipped. So many of the things that I was struggling with (not engaging/obsessing), were almost doable without thought!
I have a question. How many of your NPD's had any long term friends? I have friends from childhood who still remain friends today.
Not so with XNPDH. His only "friends" were current co-workers or friends of mine or their spouses.
Not so with XNPDH. His only "friends" were current co-workers or friends of mine or their spouses.
My H has ZERO friends. Before me, he was in an 8 year relationship and when that ended she got all of their friends. Like when you divorce she keeps the car, he gets the bedroom furniture, she got the friends. At the time I thought it was because he wasn't very supported in ending the relationship. He is from a different culture and they are a very tight-knit group, he played it off that it would have been difficult to stay friends with some and not others.
Now of course I know better. He has work colleagues, my friends, my couple friends, and that's it. He would say he has 1 real friend if asked since they've known each other since his first job and they went to HS together. Problem with that is, they weren't actually friends in HS and only still stay in contact because of his job...he doesn't have one single person that HE initiates non-work related contact with. My friends husbands will sometimes get together and if I nudge or push him he'll do group things with them. If we divorced tomorrow, I too would 'get' the friends and he'd be back to having no one outside of work. He has absolutely no one that he confides in and hasn't since the day I met him.
It's one of the things I used to try to push when I was still attempting R. He relies on me for everything and we all know you can't be someones everything!
NPD's are known to go from one person to the next and taking on their life as their own. (taste in music/hobbies/friends/personal style/etc) It's one of the reasons when you meet them they seem so wonderful, because OMG we have so much in common!
I want to post a link but I'm never sure what is ok and stays within the guidelines. It's not a relationship site, doesn't have a forum and I'm not selling anything (the blogger has a link to a book he wrote, but I think that's it). Maybe it's ok to just tell you what to Google?
Your posted text and the description of a "Stealth Narcissist" is what had me thinking of the site for Dr. George Simon and what he calls a "Covert Manipulator". AMAZING stuff, especially if your NPD doesn't fit the classic examples of verbal abuse. I have a very hard time explaining what he's done to people since he's not the type to come right out and say "You're such a stupid bitch". I swear I've been tempted to carry a VAR around with me so that I can just play back our interactions. I'm not saying he never says nasty shit, but even at his nastiest it's just not as obvious as this.
"If you'd only do what I say then we'd both be happy."
Chills on this one. My H would never say that outright, but in every way this is the underlying message he's been sending me since the day he decided to stop playing nice. Any time I've called him out and accused him of 'telling' me this (without actually telling me) he Stonewalls me. Bingo!
My BF is going through a horrible situation with her own crazy H. He is a overt manipulator who verbalizes what he wants. He uses his distorted version of 'Christian Wife Submission to her Husband' to control her every move, he feels no shame to say that sentence right to her face, along with thousands of other disgusting and crazy things.
Overt or Covert, they are both abusive manipulators who's motto for the marriage is:
"STFU, do what I say, and I'll be happy". Maddening and painful in all forms, but I think Stealth/Covert Narcissists are able to fool us longer and I feel (for me at least) made it SO much harder for me to reach out to others. How the hell do you get support for a situation you can't even seem to explain?!?
* Edited to Add * Google: manipulative-people, Dr. George Simon
[This message edited by WoundedOpus at 3:12 PM, February 13th, 2014 (Thursday)]
“I don't want to get to the end of my life and find that I have just lived the length of it. I want to have lived the width of it as well." ~ Diane Ackerman