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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: Betrayed Men Part 12
WhiskeyRiver
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Default  Posted: 9:36 PM, July 27th (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

If Tred were here, he'd ask us tell a dick joke for Whiskey, so...

Why is "The Bride" smiling when she walks down the aisle?


Because she knows she'll never have to give another beej.

I can in fact confirm this.

BITTER EDIT: I cannot confirm this for POSER.

Another edit: the thing about "release" from that video is kind of helpful. I know that option 1 is a no go, option 2 could work in some cases, but I don't want to put any (more) of that blame on myself....so you're really just left with release if you have anything left in the tattered remains.

Y'all have been tremendously helpful, as everyone IRL has been of the opinion that I should just get out as fast as I possibly can do so, but things are simply not that rudimentary, as every one of you knows. Hell, my wife could come back next week and tell me that it's over, but at least I'd know at that point that I'd made a monumental effort to do what's right in my own code of thinking.

I guess that's what it's all about. No regrets. Do the right thing, for yourself. Do you love her? Of course. Can she continue to damage you? No. The damage has been done...the goal is to prevent future damage.

I dunno...

[This message edited by WhiskeyRiver at 9:53 PM, July 27th (Saturday)]


Posts: 22 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: New England
Later
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Default  Posted: 9:42 PM, July 27th (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

- I promise you, that is what the 180 is about - you. Finding you. Being you.
It will not work as a manipulative tool. To get her to do, be, or say something.
If that's in your mind - you're doing it wrong.


This is why it's a pet peeve of mine to see people talking about doing the 180 "on" the spouse. To me that sounds like a manipulative move and is confusing. You do it "for" yourself, not "on" the spouse.


Posts: 384 | Registered: May 2013
noescape
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Member # 34888
Default  Posted: 10:10 PM, July 27th (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

true on that last statement Later. i used to "try" 180 on her coz she was doin it to me all the time.... "see how that feels, bioatch" kinda thinking. it was pathetic to say the least and NEVER got me/us any place better. then it was "i'll 180 coz i want you to love me/be honest/start feeling remorse" BULLshit. doesnt work either. in fact, THAT thinking is enabling to an active/dry adulteress. WS's, specifically the PA kind, thrive on that kind of unhealthy dynamic. it took months of internalizing this message and even more months of practice (i'm a specifically BAD case of coda) that you dont use 180 to manipulate, you use 180 to focus on yourself and your happiness/not allow her to hurt/manipulate you anymore.

fact is, one of the most unhealthy post DDay marriage advice i got was from Dr Harley who lays out his Plan A, Plan B mantra. Fact is, both of those plans are meant as manipulation tools. Plan B is somewhat the 180. i was an early adherent to the dr harley school and probably wasted a good year post-DDay on that crock-o-bull.

this is my long winded way to say; ^^^^ What later said ^^^^


Posts: 739 | Registered: Feb 2012
DecadeCentrifuge
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Member # 39406
Default  Posted: 10:32 PM, July 27th (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Uhh... hey guys. Are "post-divorced, now remarried, but still just-found-out about old shit" dudes welcome around these parts?


Me: BH - Happily Remarried, but dealing with old stuff

“I'm losing my mind in a bedroom with a ghost
and I'm losing my mind in a bottle while I choke
I stayed years with you, no one knows (but I want them to).”
– Thought Industry


Posts: 44 | Registered: May 2013
stilllovingher
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Member # 29959
Default  Posted: 10:43 PM, July 27th (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

you betchya .

sorry you find yourself here, but under these circumstances there really is no better place to be found.

welcome.


The only difference between a butt kisser and a brown noser is depth perception.
I'm sure WAL would agree.

Posts: 2385 | Registered: Oct 2010 | From: still BFE, but now BFE, CA
noescape
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Member # 34888
Default  Posted: 10:45 PM, July 27th (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

grab a beer, sit down and put your feet up. (you can fart too).

Posts: 739 | Registered: Feb 2012
DecadeCentrifuge
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Member # 39406
Default  Posted: 11:06 PM, July 27th (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Cool.

I'm exploring the Pyramid Outburst Imperial IPA tonight. A little malty, but good hops on the tail.


Me: BH - Happily Remarried, but dealing with old stuff

“I'm losing my mind in a bedroom with a ghost
and I'm losing my mind in a bottle while I choke
I stayed years with you, no one knows (but I want them to).”
– Thought Industry


Posts: 44 | Registered: May 2013
5454real
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Member # 37455
Default  Posted: 11:42 PM, July 27th (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Welcome back, DC.

Choice this evening is Jack from the bottle. Gonna be a long couple of days. Getting hard on the FWW to maintain her newly found coping skills. Her comment last evening was that she didn't like who I was becoming. I'm not as easy going anymore. I'm not as happy as I was. WTF? Really? She thought maybe I would revert back if "I just left".

Don't think she much cared for my answer of "ok, bye." I've been cheated on by 5 different women. Left every other time, including my first marriage. Granted, the first divorce was tough, but it was a hell of a lot easier than trying to R. A lot. Even cost me 50k!!! But I did get custody of my son. That was all that mattered.

I wonder if she believes me? Yes, I do love her. I do want my marriage. Not at the cost of my soul though. I will not accept the previous "norm". Look where that got me.

Strength brothers!

PS, didn't find the Budweiser clock, but I am installing a couple of antique Budweiser lights in the "man cave". Pic's later.

Fuck I hate PA behaviors.


BH 50, WW 41
DS 23(Mine),SD 21,SS 19(Hers),DS 8 Ours, DGS 2 1/2
D=Day #1 5/04EA (Rugswept)
D-Day #2 3/10/12, TT til 3/13/12
Married 10yrs
“I have no love for a friend who loves in words alone.”
― Sophocles, Antigone

Posts: 2087 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: midwest
stilllovingher
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Member # 29959
Default  Posted: 2:11 AM, July 28th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

@DC
I've read through your posts but I'm confused(I'm sure you understand )
is your current Wife, the girl from the quartet?

eta: sorry DC, didn't mean to put you on blast like that, I only ask because I had this thought running in my head that if that was the case, that I am very happy for you, that from all that shit, all those years of being treated like a non-person, that something good, something really good, came out the other side. Maybe not FROM it, but in spite of it.

[This message edited by stilllovingher at 2:29 AM, July 28th (Sunday)]


The only difference between a butt kisser and a brown noser is depth perception.
I'm sure WAL would agree.

Posts: 2385 | Registered: Oct 2010 | From: still BFE, but now BFE, CA
Sal1995
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Member # 39099
Default  Posted: 10:22 AM, July 28th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

More like pussy-whipped, Whiskey. That's ok, we've all been there. Also you love your wife I'm sure, so that complicates things. Don't be too hard on yourself, your hurting like hell right now. You'll start to get your footing soon. The wise vets on this thread will help.


Me-45
WW-42
DDay 2/17/13, 10 month PA/EA
Final NC late Feb. '13
M - 18 years, together 19+
4 children

Reconciled


Posts: 1035 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Texas
StillGoing
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Member # 28571
Default  Posted: 10:52 AM, July 28th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I dunno, I don't know how much of that is heartsick or pussy whipped and how much is shell shock. She's had a long time to shift the internal landscape of her emotions, we take awhile to catch up. We can do stupid shit in the wake of that, out of a misunderstanding of the present landscape. Sometimes we actively hide from that shit because we don't want to take the full measure of what is in front of us, but for the most part it takes time to assess and accept the reality that we have is not the same as the reality we thought we were living in, and for a time our judgements live in some fey and fucked up in-between place until we get far enough into reality (or backward enough to hide from it) that choices aren't influenced by both.

Dunno if that made any sense. Had a Stone Ruination IPA last night, I didn't like the IPAs at first either but they grew on me. When it comes to warm beer, it's like the owner of Dogfish Head says, a good way to see if you are drinking a good beer is to try it at room temperature - if it isn't nasty, then it's a good beer.


“Fate is a fickle bitch who dotes on irony.”

Posts: 7119 | Registered: May 2010 | From: USA
DecadeCentrifuge
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Member # 39406
Default  Posted: 11:10 AM, July 28th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

@stillLoving: I totally understand. I lived that shit and it still confuses the hell out of me.

Yeah, my current wife was the xWW's "side project" during the poly marriage. We were the best things to happen to each other in that chaos.

[This message edited by DecadeCentrifuge at 11:11 AM, July 28th (Sunday)]


Me: BH - Happily Remarried, but dealing with old stuff

“I'm losing my mind in a bedroom with a ghost
and I'm losing my mind in a bottle while I choke
I stayed years with you, no one knows (but I want them to).”
– Thought Industry


Posts: 44 | Registered: May 2013
Later
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Member # 39375
Default  Posted: 1:55 PM, July 28th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Okay, I saw this posted in the Wayward thread, and I don't think reposting here violates the oft discussed rule since it's a copy and paste of something another poster was merely quoting:

"Having relationships without barriers, ones in which we can be entirely open with our feelings, is something many of us desire. At the same time, the possibility of such intimacy causes us more fear than almost any other situation in life.
If we examine what frightens us, we'll usually find that we are attempting to hide an aspect of our personalities that we are ashamed of, an aspect we sometimes haven't even admitted to ourselves. We don't want others to know of our insecurities, our pain, or our neediness, so we simply refuse to expose them. We may imagine that if no one knows about our imperfections, those imperfections will cease to exist.

This is the point where our relationships stop. Anyone who enters our lives will not get past the point at which our secrets begin. To maintain intimacy in a relationship, it is essential that we acknowledge our defects and accept them. When we do, the fortress of denial, erected to keep these things hidden, will come crashing down, enabling us to build up our relationships with others."

Guys, I recognized some time ago that in many ways I was responsible for a lack of candor in our relationship. She is too, but I put it on myself because, as the male, I feel like I should have lead. The fact is, however, we were relatively young and neither of us had any idea about true intimacy.

As I got older, I recognized this an tried to correct the course. I suppose I did a poor job of that, and of explaining what I was trying to do. Since Dday she pointed to some of those times of radical honesty as indicators the M was dead. I don't know whether she really misinterpreted things, or whether this is just more gaslighting.

In any event, I don't know that my wife was ever truly capable of being vulnerable in her honesty with anyone. Now, with all of the A BS, I really question whether we could ever be that "safe person" for the other.

And finally, is radical honesty just a pipe dream? Or, are we better off in relationships with tactical truth?

Personally, I think that latter sucks --I am just not sure whether the former is realistic.


Posts: 384 | Registered: May 2013
Ascendant
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Member # 38303
Default  Posted: 3:37 PM, July 28th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

And finally, is radical honesty just a pipe dream? Or, are we better off in relationships with tactical truth?

I'm going to pull a bitch move here and say the sweet spot is probably somewhere in the middle, and it probably varies from relationship to relationship dependent upon the actors involved. I mean, as with any variable in a relationship, the parameters are defined by what the partners want.

Let's face it, I don't know too many people that want honesty on all issues, all the time. Well-worn example: "Does this make me look fat?" or, "Is it big enough for you?" Do some people want honest answers to these questions? Sure. But I feel like most of just want some positive affirmations with those types of questions. I mean, I know that I have a tendency to repeat myself. I'm sure it's annoying. I don't need to hear that it annoys the hell out of my wife every time I do it.

I think that there's a fine line between avoiding hurting people's feelings for their own benefit, and lying (via omission, straight out lies, or whatever). I know that seems like a bit of a slippery slope, but I think that it just requires a ton of honesty about yourself and your actions in those sorts of situations. Withholding information (like with an A) under the guise of doing it for the other person's own good is bullshit, because you're really doing it because seeing the consequences of your actions reflected in the other person will be too painful for the liar, not the one being lied to.

That being said, I think total honesty is 100% fine, as long as the person requesting it is ready for the truth. If you're going to ask me if something looks good on you, or want a complete breakdown of my sexual history before you, cool. But that means that you're not allowed to hold it against me later, provided I haven't previously given you a different set of facts.

I really do think it's on the requester. We see it on here sometimes...a WS asks something along the lines of "Well, my BS doesn't want any details and/or a timeline, should I give it anyway?" Some people don't want and/or need all that extra info, whether it's the truth or not. Cramming the 'truth' down people's throats wiithout their permission is just a dick move. I used to work with a woman who would say mean (albeit true) things about people...their personalities, their physical shortcomings, their spouses, etc....and she was good at it...I mean, she used her wit like a force of nature. When confronted, she would get all, "Well, I just speak the truth, and if people can't handle it, that's on them."

Fuck that.

Running around hurting people's feelings with commentary and information they didn't ask for isn't being truthful, it's just being a prick.

[This message edited by FacePunched at 6:16 PM, July 28th, 2013 (Sunday)]


“Anyone who has a continuous smile on his face conceals a toughness that is almost frightening.”

Posts: 1618 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Illinois
HoldingTogether
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Default  Posted: 6:38 PM, July 28th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

And finally, is radical honesty just a pipe dream? Or, are we better off in relationships with tactical truth?

It is kind of a fine line isn't it? Always troubles me too.
Running around hurting people's feelings with commentary and information they didn't ask for isn't being truthful, it's just being a prick.

Exactly. That kind of thing always makes me think of the term: "Brutally Honest", it's really such a fucked up concept when you think about it. Can't you just give me the "Honest" part and leave off the "Brutal" part?

I imagine it's possible to be honest and yet tactful at the same time. But I guess if I am being totally honest myself there are probably some things I'd rather not know. Problem is, I have a real problem with someone else making that determination for me.

Then again, if I don't know the information already, how can I inform someone else with regards to my wish to know or not to know? Ok, now I got a fucking headache. One of you other amateur philosophers are gonna have to take a whack at this one.


Me:BH 41
Her:FWW40(Walkinoneggshellz)
2 Beautiful little girls 13&10
Dday: 7/24/10 1yr EA turned 5 monthPA
"I gotta hole in me now... I got a scar I can talk about."

Posts: 339 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: New Life
noescape
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Member # 34888
Default  Posted: 6:46 PM, July 28th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

FP, on the other side of the spectrum are those who live in a sphere of denial (not just a river in Egypt). denial about their relationships, about the actors in their lives and denial, specially, about themselves.

I do not believe truth/honesty can ever be too 'radical'. It can be compassionate and it can be sensitive but not necessarily unwelcome.

I am just not sure whether the former is realistic.

I believe it can realistic with people who are healthy/want to be in healthy relationships. I've seen it in (some) mature couples or those who have a quite a few years behind them in friendships etc...

Look at SI as an example; we thrive on good, straightforward, honest advice. Every BS or WS who walks in these doors usually needs a good dose of reality, truth, honesty and (sometimes) brutal waking up from our misconceived perceptions.

Now imagine a lifelong relationship where you cannot/will not exercise that. Yes, some people may survive without infidelity and others may without other forms of betrayal/fuck ups in their relationships; but in our specific context (of betrayers/betrayed) - I believe that option has been nullified.

I've always related to the moment of DDay (actually a few days leading up to it, but generally the moment of revelation of stuff I had no idea of) very akin to that moment in the movie unbreakable

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tmzbosye2-Y

its a wake up, its a moment of gawdawfultruth. but its also something that suddenly MAKES SENSE of the person we are with, more so, it makes sense OF OUR LIVES. I think its critically important to KNOW to be able to make decisions about OUR LIVES. Decisions which are sometimes linked to life or death, health, happiness and being human in itself. Hence, within relationships, which are probably the MOST IMPORTANT defining criteria for a social animal like humans (and many other communities as well), honesty about self and knowledge/truth about those in relationships with you, can be life defining in themselves.

We can mask lies in a hundred words like; Trickle 'Truth' (ugh... thats just lies by a different name ) or 'Tactical' Honesty or white lies... in the end; they're all the same; expressions of insincerity in a relationship context where sincerity is probably what the relationship itself lives on.

Yes, there is a place to be tactical and to be ambiguous or even be sensitive (to a point) but if misapplied; it is just plain lies. If we cannot be authentic to ourselves and to others, we will always suffer in unhealthy relational dynamics; specially with OURSELVES before all others.

I guess being sensitive with information is more akin to being 'age appropriate' with children; which doesnt mean we outright lie to them but we temper the message/information.

Now, doing that is something that for me is a work in progress. I know and learnt the hard way that my W doesn't appreciate, nor values nor can reciprocate such honesty from me. I also know that it makes me a better relational partner - whether she can value it or otherwise - to reach that point of fear and cross it. For me, it was a moment(s) of crossing my internal barriers which I had refused to look into for many years and though I had no traction in my relationship with her for crossing those boundaries; it sorta freed me to be genuine and authentic; almost a starting point to be at peace with myself and where I went wrong and what I needed to do to get to what I would consider right.

I'm sure WAL or SG or one of the other Jedi Masters will eventually step in and say all of that in 2 sentences and take it to a much higher level so I'll stop right here.

ETA: maybe that clip doesnt make much sense out of context, but I hope the message is still brought through.

[This message edited by noescape at 6:53 PM, July 28th (Sunday)]


Posts: 739 | Registered: Feb 2012
DecadeCentrifuge
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Default  Posted: 8:46 PM, July 28th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Since DDay, the new wife and I have decided to adopt radical honesty, because we both agreed that relationships with radical honesty would be at a very low risk for affairs and other bullshit. Since I was an intensely secretive person, the path has not been easy.

Once you get into the habit of communicating about uncomfortable truths, you get a much fuller (and more attractive) image of the person you're with. It also helped me deal with my huge pile of self-esteem issues.

As far as how to do it, I think the key is either going all-in or not even pretending. When you assume radical honesty with another person, you notice all the little white lies you tell on a daily basis. It's tough to squash them, and even more difficult to come back and say, "you know that inconsequential thing I said two hours ago? It wasn't true...", but you learn so much about yourself and your partner that it's totally worth it (for us).

It's especially weird in the bedroom. Shit I never thought I would say aloud comes spilling out, and it wasn't the anxiety powered fuel-air-bomb explosion I was so sure honesty would bring...

I dunno though. I wasn't a particularly honest person for most of my life, so the change might not be so dramatic for others.


Me: BH - Happily Remarried, but dealing with old stuff

“I'm losing my mind in a bedroom with a ghost
and I'm losing my mind in a bottle while I choke
I stayed years with you, no one knows (but I want them to).”
– Thought Industry


Posts: 44 | Registered: May 2013
StillGoing
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Member # 28571
Default  Posted: 6:28 AM, July 29th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I think there's also a difference between actively hiding insecurities, feelings, etc, and lacking the self awareness to properly identify them.


“Fate is a fickle bitch who dotes on irony.”

Posts: 7119 | Registered: May 2010 | From: USA
thinkingclear
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Default  Posted: 9:08 AM, July 29th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

In any event, I don't know that my wife was ever truly capable of being vulnerable in her honesty with anyone. Now, with all of the A BS, I really question whether we could ever be that "safe person" for the other.

This is exactly where I find myself. I too believe that I enabled the 'holding onto secrets' and 'not sharing our feelings' aspect of our M for a few years. At least on her part. I didn't push hard. I just felt that she would open up when she was ready. I had no problem sharing my point of view and it may have been 'too' honest at times from her perspective. Ultimately, I don't think she knows how to be completely open with herself or anyone else.

We have had an interesting couple weeks. In almost every aspect she is now what I would consider to be truly remorseful. I can feel it and it feels genuine. She has started to share her feelings in MC. Her shame, guilt, regret, fear among others. She told me how miserable it makes her feel seeing how much pain she has caused me and how it has changed me. She says should would do anything to go back and do things differently. She wants us to get a place of peace and is willing to work through all of my concerns.

It makes me feel conflicted. There is a part that feels relieved, vindicated and somewhat hopeful. There is another part that feels extreme anger, pain and disgust for what she did and how long it took her to get to this point of remorse. I don't hate her. BUT I feel like I'm about ready to give her the ILYBINILWY speech. Now it's me who is starting to feel like 'hiding' my emotions because they are starting to point to my inability to live with this reality. I will tell her how I feel, but I think it will be best to discuss with the MC present later this week.

She show signs of life but at the same times shows her lack of introspection. She has been asked by our MC to go for some IC primarily to help with her parenting. I see it as understanding her FOO issues so that she doesn't pass them along. She believes she 'knows it all' already. "They will just tell me to set better boundaries; to not feel guilty for saying 'NO'; to take sometime for myself and to find a way to be happy with myself". She is, again, quick to point out her Psych minor experience. As it stands her kids are doomed to repeat her choices with a CODA mother. Her soon to be freshman son can't make any decisions without his mom's approval. They all require constant validation. They are all easily angered because their coping mechanism are limited. I gently told her that if it were me I would respect the MC's opinion and go to some IC sessions. I told her I felt that it would help her and in turn it would help everyone around her. She isn't buying it and it makes me frustrated. I'm not sure I can 'cope' with this much longer.

[This message edited by thinkingclear at 9:28 AM, July 29th (Monday)]


BS - Me
WW - Her
10 month EA/PA

Posts: 211 | Registered: Apr 2013
jjct
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Member # 17484
Default  Posted: 9:48 AM, July 29th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

...hiding insecurities, feelings, etc, and lacking the self awareness to properly identify them.

Seems so familiar...wait...that's life, isn't it?

Prufrock's dilemma!
There will be time, there will be time
To prepare a face to meet the faces that you meet
&
Do I dare
Disturb the universe?
In a minute there is time
For decisions and revisions which a minute will reverse.
&
Should I, after tea and cakes and ices,
Have the strength to force the moment to its crisis?
&
Would it have been worth while,
To have bitten off the matter with a smile,
To have squeezed the universe into a ball
To roll it toward some overwhelming question,

Eh, you get the point fellas...

tc,I am sooo happy your W is remorseful - I never got that, so forgive me for being a little envious

I highly suspect that your present inner conflict is in fact, part of the climb...normal. We all know wal is the master at sussing out the delicacies of R's, and I hope he gets in here to shed his brilliant light on it.
I don't like the pain of the inner conflict, the uncertainty, and I just wanted to say I wish you well, and speaking about it in MC sounds safe. Good plan.


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