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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: Betrayed Men Part 12
ArableSands
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Member # 39830
Default  Posted: 5:52 PM, July 31st (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi guys

Thanks for all of the thoughtful replies. I have to process it all first. But let me add, regarding the limits of the cheating: the evidence I saw aligned with her story. My gut isn't screaming at me like it was between April and June. And my WW is truly a shit liar. Truly.


Posts: 224 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: Vancouver, Canada
DefiledRage
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Member # 39292
Default  Posted: 5:59 PM, July 31st (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

through Vegas

vegas!vegas!vegas!
safe journey WB!


Me:35 WW:34 M:13yrs
3 young children
Dday 1 EA 7/8/2010
Dday 2 PA 3/1/2013 same OMM for 4yrs

Mister rabbit says, "A moment of realization is worth a thousand prayers."


Posts: 427 | Registered: May 2013 | From: Two blocks from south shit and west hell
Sal1995
♂ Member
Member # 39099
Default  Posted: 6:00 PM, July 31st (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Take care WB, don't be a stranger.


Me-45
WW-42
DDay 2/17/13, 10 month PA/EA
Final NC late Feb. '13
M - 18 years, together 19+
4 children

Reconciled


Posts: 1035 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Texas
5454real
♂ Member
Member # 37455
Default  Posted: 6:03 PM, July 31st (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

FP, ditto on the Dells.

Chester, welcome. If an allowance is really the way you want to go, fine. Maybe set it to comparable daycare rates? IDK. Otherwise she needs to own her shit and spend responsibly. Maybe run every purchase by you first for a while.

AS, I remember one of your posts where SHE didn't know if MC would work or if she was even interested. Bro, she's playing you. I also suspect it went farther. Keeping you on edge keeps you from looking deeper into what occurred.

T needs to be out of this picture. She is not a friend of the marriage. Regardless of what the issues were before the A, they are moot now. At least until this is resolved.

Please read, research and implement the 180. http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/faq_bs.asp#FAQ11

ETA just read your last post, to me, something seems off. Especially the defensiveness/anger. Just watch your back.

[This message edited by 5454real at 6:05 PM, July 31st (Wednesday)]


BH 50, WW 41
DS 23(Mine),SD 21,SS 19(Hers),DS 8 Ours, DGS 2 1/2
D=Day #1 5/04EA (Rugswept)
D-Day #2 3/10/12, TT til 3/13/12
Married 10yrs
“I have no love for a friend who loves in words alone.”
― Sophocles, Antigone

Posts: 2076 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: midwest
ArableSands
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Member # 39830
Default  Posted: 6:09 PM, July 31st (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

You and the others might be right about the PA going further 5454real, but so far I have yet to come across a change in her story or anything in the evidence that doesn't align with her claims.

My gut still thinks she's telling the truth, that she spilled it all on DDay. I'll keep a jaundiced eye out though.


Posts: 224 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: Vancouver, Canada
ChesterChump
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Member # 38094
Default  Posted: 6:17 PM, July 31st (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks guys. I've clamped down on ATM withdrawls so she can't launder things through cash. But yeah, I completely feel like I have two wonderful little kids and a spoiled, surly teenaged girl in my care. I completely understand that she isn't worthy of trust (and I don't give her any) but, just from a practical point of view, giving her a fixed income is going to drive her underground and I don't have that much to police this shit.

Well, I might as well kick that hornets nest tonight and get it over with.


Posts: 26 | Registered: Jan 2013
5454real
♂ Member
Member # 37455
Default  Posted: 6:25 PM, July 31st (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

WB Drive safe.


BH 50, WW 41
DS 23(Mine),SD 21,SS 19(Hers),DS 8 Ours, DGS 2 1/2
D=Day #1 5/04EA (Rugswept)
D-Day #2 3/10/12, TT til 3/13/12
Married 10yrs
“I have no love for a friend who loves in words alone.”
― Sophocles, Antigone

Posts: 2076 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: midwest
noescape
♂ Member
Member # 34888
Default  Posted: 6:26 PM, July 31st (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

AS,

your post pains me to the core. what everyone else said above, here are a few short responses:

Her cheating was "limited" (ha!) to making out and heavy petting three times over three months

lies! minimisation. you're in for TT. I pray and hope I am wrong, I know I am not.

there was no intention on her part to go past kissing and petting to actual sex

heard this a hundred times on here in SI and IRL from my WW, only to have it go one step further with every TT. its still minimisation.

after the first two weeks, she becomes angry, perhaps from the 5 years of my bullshit dumped on her

blameshifting; classic WS defence; and youre taking it, dont. stand your ground. nothing M related pre-A stuff till remorse, NC, transparency and some serious counseling on why she did what she did - I'd even say skip the MC till she starts owning her shitty choices and her A. period. no bullshit. you'll never be able to have peace or any R of any sort with someone who deceives you and continues to blameshift.

This will let her breathe and catch up on sleep

probably also catch up on her wayward behaviour; my W went for a trip 'to her family' and started her second bout of cheating there; away from my eyes.

WS's tend to want to "get away" from the BS because the AP/A itself is an addiction and they are going through withdrawals. The point of getting away is to continue contact with AP (away from the BS's prying eyes) or to continue some form of the A behaviour. How many times have we seen a BS tell of the WS who moved away or "needed some time" just to go on to have some quality time with the AP/continue contact or take the A underground. dont fall for her bullshit.

T might put something into her head that won't help us.

yes, T would probably enable her waywardness/justify it to death. put a rule in place: no friend of the family justifies an A or waywardness, a friend of the A/wayward behaviour is an enemy of the M. rather than preaching remorse to your WW, she told her to fuck you over some more? fuck her!

trip will fuel a desire for separation, this early in the process

DETACH, let go of the outcome, please-take care of yourself. stop this fear of 'losing her/the M' - she already signed the death sentence of your M with her A. you ALREADY lost her. you're holding on to a carcass. I dont mean to be particularly harsh, nor am I pro-D. i AM however, pro-HEALING. you'll only start feeling better when you grieve the M you had and the W you thought you had.

WS's thrive on fear and desperation. they will control the fuck out of you if you show them that they can control you. I was manipulated mercilessly by my 'sweet, pure' W for months, if not years, even post-DDay when I couldnt believe the horrors she was capable of. I know you love your W, we all do/did. SHE should want this to work, SHE should be the one fearing the outcome for HER actions. Its called being adults; everything has consequences.

her saying

"I really want this to work." &

I'm sensing distance from her, anger, and we stopped having sex

clearly a case of actions not matching words. hold the bar high and stop jumping through hoops yourself. you can ONLY work with her when her words and actions start matching up.

It was my only hammer to use on my wife.

dont use it as a 'hammer' to try and fix her... you cannot manipulate her. if you have to D or S-do it for yourself (though not advised in the first 6 months of this roller coaster, unless the A IS a definite dealbreaker - then end it quick).

there is nothing you can/will do that will change her or fix her, that is all on her to own (DETACH - Dont Even Try And Change Her)

And how to do come home to an empty house for seven days? I have no other support here

you come here to your brothers (and sisters) on SI; and take the time to enjoy yourself, breathe, play, watch movies/a game, be good to yourself. take your mind of triggers and off the crazy train (gawd knows you need it).

ATS is a guy here whose suggests that you can only save a marriage if you are willing to give it up

^^^ most would agree. (i'll find strongers post to repost for your benefit)

Finally, one night about 90 days in she confessed

my WW trickle truthed (not a word?) me for a whole 2 years and then some, finally i gave up. there is still her deception 3 years out, i no longer care to ask. leading to false R for over 2 years of "us" trying (bullshit-there was no 'US' and no 'trying' with the lies sitting like a putrid elephant turd between us). nothing works through deception.

AS}}}}} sorry but welcome to the best club no one wanted to be a part of.


Posts: 739 | Registered: Feb 2012
ArableSands
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Member # 39830
Default  Posted: 6:30 PM, July 31st (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

noescape I'm trying really hard to be suspicious, but my gut just isn't warning me. I don't get a sense she's TTing at all.

I do have one sure fire method of verification, but I want to save it, to give MC a chance first. And as I said before, my WW really truly is a shit liar. The second she was busted, she babbled and kept talking, not once changing her story. Nothing has changed since DDay.

I'll remain vigilant. But I'm going to trust my gut...the last time I didn't, cheating happened right under my nose.


Posts: 224 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: Vancouver, Canada
jjct
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Member # 17484
Default  Posted: 6:32 PM, July 31st (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'd have fun on that drive wb!
&FP - have a happy birthday man, sounds like letting it all float away for awhile...

Sands - this part made me uncomfortable for you:


I have committed to MC and that means vowing to put myself on the line, being vulnerable YET AGAIN to be completely crushed, and I am SO worried that she'll suddenly decide she's done and I am not sure I could survive that.

That's why the guys are telling you to be willing to lose it - to get brave.
It is that fear that is allowing you to be manipulated re:

I promised not to bring up D when the MC asked us to at the end of the first MC session. It was my only hammer to use on my wife.

I understand fear, and I understand being manipulated.
Be strong. I believe women are hard-wired to respond to that.
Conquer it, master it, kick its ass.

It confuses me. If D-talk is your hammer - yet you fear it from her - it's her hammer too.


Posts: 6027 | Registered: Dec 2007 | From: texas
thinkingclear
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Member # 38884
Default  Posted: 6:53 PM, July 31st (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Welcome AS. Sorry you're here but glad you found us.

Everyone has already given you some great advice. I don't have much to add.

I hope that you are right but it seems way too convenient that it ended at 'heavy petting' with that much emotional connection. You can bet your ass POSER was looking to score and push that line. Not sure why she would stop there if she was able to get herself to that point. I like the fact that you are trusting your instincts. Just stay vigilant.

As many have already told you. DETACH. the only thing you control is yourself. Let go of the M and the outcome. This sucks but you will be ok one way or another.

Personally I'd love a week home alone. Make it my birthday and I'd be in heaven. Maybe you could ask FP if you could crash his party?


BS - Me
WW - Her
10 month EA/PA

Posts: 211 | Registered: Apr 2013
stilllovingher
♂ Member
Member # 29959
Default  Posted: 7:05 PM, July 31st (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

@WB
best of luck on the drive, may the traffic/weather Gods smile upon you.
If you are passing through LA hit me up.


The only difference between a butt kisser and a brown noser is depth perception.
I'm sure WAL would agree.

Posts: 2385 | Registered: Oct 2010 | From: still BFE, but now BFE, CA
ArableSands
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Member # 39830
Default  Posted: 7:28 PM, July 31st (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

thinkingclear, thanks for the welcome.

I hope that you are right but it seems way too convenient that it ended at 'heavy petting' with that much emotional connection. You can bet your ass POSER was looking to score and push that line. Not sure why she would stop there if she was able to get herself to that point.

Oddly, this fits her personality, stopping before that line. She's always been a bit strange that way. Even while the cheating was going on, she was trying to find the guy a girlfriend, and I saw the attempts. As far as the douchebag goes, he's a 61 year old perpetual milquetoast bachelor who doesn't have an aggressive, initiating bone in his body. He's a hopeless mess around women, even at that age. Like I said, WW knew he was "safe".

She's owned the cheating 100% (have you guys noticed I do NOT call it an "affair"? It's too soft a word for too painful an act), and admits to being relieved that it's over. Interestingly, I just briefly 180ed my wife while I was typing this, and her response was near instant. "Is everything okay?" "Yes, it's fine." A hug and a kiss from her before she left to attend a meeting with co-workers. This time the hug and kiss felt genuine. Ah ha!

Thanks guys. I just want to add that while I appreciate your protectiveness of me, I really don't think she fucked the guy. She was in fantasyland, and her story and the evidence around it has been consistent about how she really wasn't interested in him physically. Seeing him naked would've burst her bubble. Or so my gut tells me.


Posts: 224 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: Vancouver, Canada
noescape
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Member # 34888
Default  Posted: 7:52 PM, July 31st (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'm sorry bro, not to keep wearing you down, but read up a bit on BS fog and how it can be enabling for a remorseless WS . Don't jump for crumbs. (Re: That hug before she left, keep 180ing to protect yourself).

Her attitude of busting you for pre-A behaviour and that anger and holding off remorse are sending me bright warning signals. Hopefully I'm wrong. Consistent actions which match her words are the only gauge you have and proving that takes months, not weeks. Vigilance, don't give up snooping. Try checking up on her out of the blue, be unpredictable.

POSERs don't need to be aggressively chasing, we've found out through our collective here that WWs (contrary to popular cultural myths) tend to be as aggressive as men, if not more, on getting physical. It takes a switch in their heads (the one they switched off for us once we became routine and boring; I.e their husbands) to become the initiator/chaser or seducer. Sorry you have to hear this, not casting aspersions, just giving you a general consensus of betrayed Menz. Oh, and if I haven't said it enough; they lie. A Lot. It would be an exception for a WW to be forthright about the A on the first DDay. Something to do with shame. I would've thought otherwise if she had not been busted and had confessed.


Posts: 739 | Registered: Feb 2012
ArableSands
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Member # 39830
Default  Posted: 7:56 PM, July 31st (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

noescape, no worries. I will remain vigilant and a small part of me will always be suspicious. I'll ask our MC to help with digging out the truth.

I know WS's lie, but as I've said before, she really sucks at lying. Really sucks. Bad enough it's laughable. And the evidence supports her story. I guess my particular WW is an outlier on the bell curve of Bad Behaviour.

But thank you for watching my back. You guys are great.


Posts: 224 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: Vancouver, Canada
Tred
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Member # 34086
Default  Posted: 8:03 PM, July 31st (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

It confuses me. If D-talk is your hammer - yet you fear it from her - it's her hammer too.

That's too good of advice to post in the quotes thread - we need to lock it up where the unremorseful can't see it. Stat. Then pass in it code. Translation == Wolverine.


Married: 16 years (14 @JFO)
D-Day: 11/09/11
"Ohhhhh...shut up Tred!" - NOT the official SI motto (DS)

Posts: 3305 | Registered: Dec 2011
Ascendant
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Member # 38303
Default  Posted: 8:09 PM, July 31st (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Not trying to pile on here....the only reason that most of us here are so pushy with the "Dude, she boned him." line of thought is that many of us (hell, probably MOST of us) were told the exact same thing after DDAY (or DDAY #1...again, most of us) and wanted so desperately to believe it that our guts sometimes were silent as well...only to find out more information later on.

For me, it wasn't even so much finding out new information, it was just that it took a while after DDAY for my brain to upgrade it's bullshit sniffing technology to the latest model. After about a month, my brain was constantly running a program in the recesses of my brain that was comparing one tidbit of 'fact' against another and telling me when she didn't make any sense. For me on many things my brain called bullshit before my gut did.

Again, I really hope it's not the case for you. I don't doubt that it's possible for it to stop at that point, before it reaches sexual-PA stage, us guys here on basically just playing the odds.

One last thing on the topic of the "Did she or didn't she?" sexual aspect:

She was in fantasyland, and her story and the evidence around it has been consistent about how she really wasn't interested in him physically. Seeing him naked would've burst her bubble. Or so my gut tells me.

I don't doubt that could be true. Maybe she found him absolutely repulsive sexually....but that could mean that if sexual activity DID occur, she would be absolutely disgusted with herself in that area in particular, no? If she thought he was gross, old, whatever, and still (subconsciously) had sex with him in exchange for some validation, I can only imagine how shameful that'd feel....and for many WWs, the drive to hide that shame is what fuels TT.

Even while the cheating was going on, she was trying to find the guy a girlfriend, and I saw the attempts.

This is interesting to me. Mine did the same thing. Actively tried to hook POSER up with other girls in a dating sense. I think part of me wonders if it wasn't some sick way of getting extra validation by forcing POSER to make a choice between WW and [Random Girl]. Like, by creating that situation it puts the POSER in a position to say, "No, I'm not interested in anyone else....I only have eyes for you...." , which in turn feeds into the need for validation for WW.

Again, I really hope you have the complete story....I really do. The really shitty thing about TT is that once there is even one instance of it, EVERYTHING is thrown into question. It's a complete mindfuck. I'm almost at the point with my own situation where I want to say Polygraph or D, take your pick. But you can't throw that down unless you mean it, and I don't think I'm there (yet).


“Anyone who has a continuous smile on his face conceals a toughness that is almost frightening.”

Posts: 1616 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Illinois
noescape
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Default  Posted: 8:34 PM, July 31st (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Poly's are overrated and not entirely accurate. Their only real use in A related instances is to freak a lying wayward into admitting shit they wouldn't otherwise, that too usually BEFORE the poly happens.

Use the poly, by all means, to get a confession out. But if its come to that, you're probably better off not bothering to try and R anyway. Remorseless waywards only recover enough to do it again later or to become dry adulterers for life, take yer pick.


Posts: 739 | Registered: Feb 2012
Ascendant
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Member # 38303
Default  Posted: 9:19 PM, July 31st (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Poly's are overrated and not entirely accurate.

Dude, what the hell. Maury uses them ALL THE TIME.
Their only real use in A related instances is to freak a lying wayward into admitting shit they wouldn't otherwise, that too usually BEFORE the poly happens.
Yeah, I understand that's how it usually goes, more or less, but you can't ask/demand/whatever a polygraph from your WW unless you intend to go through with it...throwing down the gauntlet on this particular issue means that you had better damned well follow through, you know? If you say "I want you to take a polygraph", and they say "Ok.", even while they know they're lying through their teeth, then you cannot back off the issue just because it didn't go as planned...because if they ARE telling the truth and have nothing further to hide, then they'll probably have no issue with it. That's why I think that this:
Use the poly, by all means, to get a confession out.
...is a great side effect, but can't be the goal. Disagree with this as well:
But if its come to that, you're probably better off not bothering to try and R anyway.
...but only because I get to choose the terms of reconciliation. If finding out that my wife is still lying will help me detach, cool. If it shows she's finally come clean with me, even better. I wholeheartedly agree with you here:
Remorseless waywards only recover enough to do it again later or to become dry adulterers for life, take yer pick.
But I think that it's not always super black-and-white, noescape. I think that for many WWs (and even those who've earned their 'fWW's) we see on SI, there is a process of TT and fucking up along the road of reconciliation, even by those who would be considered 'model examples'. Going back to this...
Poly's are overrated and not entirely accurate.
...for a moment, I understand that. I get that some people can fool the test, and that it's certainly not 100% accurate. But the test is really for my peace of mind, and not anyone else's, so if I put some stock into their efficacy, then why not? Worse case scenario, it says she's lying when she's not, and I kind of assume she is anyway about some stuff...I mean, despite 'final disclosure' and timelines and all that other good stuff, we don't ever really know. Let's say she beats the test and still conceals some info...well, I'm still being lied to one way or another, but at least this way I can finally buy into some sort of narrative that has SOMETHING, ANYTHING backing it up, even if it is objectively bullshit.


“Anyone who has a continuous smile on his face conceals a toughness that is almost frightening.”

Posts: 1616 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Illinois
jjct
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Member # 17484
Default  Posted: 9:33 PM, July 31st (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Since W is already taken, maybe molv is available?
(me, noticing that that essential question was avoided wonders)
nev mind

I'll go back to my essential thread killing duties.
things rhyme


Posts: 6027 | Registered: Dec 2007 | From: texas
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