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User Topic: Betrayed Men Part 12
Stillkicking
♂ Member
Member # 38246
Default  Posted: 12:58 AM, August 3rd (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Ah fuck I should go to bed. Lol stupid brain. My brain is in fucking hyperdrive right now...

I just processed the fact that I would come from work/gym make supper eat supper as a family, I would clean up and get the kids ready for bed, put the kids to bed, rhen finish cleaning up, and she would disappear to go do "school" but really she spent the whole fucking time texting that fuck face.

Ouch.


You'll never learn to fly
until your standing at the cliff

I reserve my right to feel uncomfortable reserve my right to be afraid.
I make mistakes and I am humbled every step of the way.


Posts: 126 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Canada
DefiledRage
♂ Member
Member # 39292
Default  Posted: 1:18 AM, August 3rd (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

So apparently I'm the asshole in the marriage....heres the story...

Tonight we're laying bed watching a show on the dvr. It gets over she says "id be willing to have sex if you will rub my calves they hurt"
I look over smile, turn back to the tv and fire up another episode. 5 minutes in she asks if I'm mad.
I say "no I'm not mad at all, I just dont pay for sex like you got that stumpy douchebag to."

So yeah she didn't like that, like I said apparently I'm the asshole...for pointing out the truth.

[This message edited by DefiledRage at 1:19 AM, August 3rd (Saturday)]


Me:35 WW:34 M:13yrs
3 young children
Dday 1 EA 7/8/2010
Dday 2 PA 3/1/2013 same OMM for 4yrs

Mister rabbit says, "A moment of realization is worth a thousand prayers."


Posts: 424 | Registered: May 2013 | From: Two blocks from south shit and west hell
Sal1995
♂ Member
Member # 39099
Default  Posted: 1:42 AM, August 3rd (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

So apparently I'm the asshole in the marriage

What, you didn't know that already?


Me-45
WW-42
DDay 2/17/13, 10 month PA/EA
Final NC late Feb. '13
M - 18 years, together 19+
4 children

Reconciled


Posts: 1025 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Texas
Sal1995
♂ Member
Member # 39099
Default  Posted: 1:49 AM, August 3rd (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

B444, rock star return brother. Were you on leave or something?


Me-45
WW-42
DDay 2/17/13, 10 month PA/EA
Final NC late Feb. '13
M - 18 years, together 19+
4 children

Reconciled


Posts: 1025 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Texas
Mr. Kite
♂ Member
Member # 28840
Default  Posted: 8:07 AM, August 3rd (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

WW knows its wrong. She wasn't taken over by aliens. There is no fog.

Mrs. Kite: "I don't know what got into me."
Me: "Go on..."
Mrs. Kite: "I don't remember."

[This message edited by Mr. Kite at 8:09 AM, August 3rd (Saturday)]


Posts: 900 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Mid-Atlantic
jjct
♂ Member
Member # 17484
Default  Posted: 8:43 AM, August 3rd (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

@Stillkicking and Tred -

Re:the funny CL ad you posted.
They are made here locally.
I know of 2 people who work there to manufacture them (fancy fapping device)...

The company requires them to wear a T-shirt, advertising the name, while working.
So, imagine the non-plussed looks of the people I work with, and others in our place of business, when...

...a rather older disheveled woman comes in from work (off the assembly line) for our services....wearing that T-shirt.
In other instances, for marketing purposes, the company will often have a life-size model of the device wandering through various local festivals, and people yuck it up with pics & videos.
There seems to be no concern for the fact that children are often in attendance at these events.

It is disgusting and degrading. And just like being the bad guy in my former M, I'm a prude for noticing that. Not only that, I'm a jerk for pointing it out.
I'm sorry they feel that way.

40,000 people are in a tiny corner of the universe striving mightily to survive the results of such *enlightened thinking*.
Shattered lives and millions of hot tears openly measure the derivative of such cold calculus - on the way down to zero.

Because zero is what I have to do with that.

This was a *Public Service* announcement - in ventish.
I'm here to help,
and I'm not from the government.


Posts: 6005 | Registered: Dec 2007 | From: texas
StillGoing
♂ Member
Member # 28571
Default  Posted: 9:02 AM, August 3rd (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

wal, right now the only mod I'm using for NV is FOOK. I have Conelrad in there but don't use it since I can run BB King on the radio in a browser behind the game. I haven't touched in it in awhile since g_r got me Last Light, I obsessed over that. Totally different playstyle but amazing couple of games. Don't think I have more than 10% of the playtime logged for that than I do New Vegas though. Then again I have close to 1200 hours logged for Mount & Blade Warband. :x

sk I fucking love Borderlands 2. g_r and I play that together. I always end up as a Commando. Two turrets with shields WHO DOESNT LOVE TURRETS.

If you need a chill-out game look at Orcs Must Die 2, it's like they took Ash and gave him traps to kill endless waves of morons. Serious stress release.

Tonight we're laying bed watching a show on the dvr. It gets over she says "id be willing to have sex if you will rub my calves they hurt"

I think if there is a quicker way to alienate your husband than fucking someone else, it's offering to pity fuck him for profit. Of course you are an asshole though, how dare you not grovel at her ruined calves.


Mrs. Kite: "I don't know what got into me."
Me: "Go on..."
Mrs. Kite: "I don't remember."

I could not resist a straight line like that anymore. You are a picture of restraint sir.


“Fate is a fickle bitch who dotes on irony.”

Posts: 7101 | Registered: May 2010 | From: USA
mike7
♂ Member
Member # 38603
Default  Posted: 10:04 AM, August 3rd (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

do any of you feel like moving on?

my wife is doing pretty much everything she should, and anything I ask. So, I guess she's a model WS.

My problem is that i now know she is someone different than I thought she was.

WS's aren't the only romantics out there. I imagined I had a loyal wife who would never dream of cheating on me. The kind of wife that would be with me every step of the way, up or down any hard road....blah, blah

Now I know she's not.

She used to be confident, respected, a lady. Now she's not. She knows she's lost face.

Even though she's doing everything right, I can't forget what happened. I still want the loyal wife. The partner, the team member, the love of my life.

I know she's not.

Sal, i've read your comments. We're both about 6 months out. I can see that you are bitter thinking about the fact your wife was "getting pounded 3 times a week by a biker looking dude."

Trust me, I feel your pain. Not exactly the same story, but close enough. I'm feeling bitter at the moment and wish I wasn't.

Doe your wife feel shame? If so, do you find it hard to love her? If not, do you find it hard to love her. My wife is ashamed of herself. But it doesn't seem to matter to me.

I'm having a hard time loving the person that I know she is. I don't want this shit sandwich.


BH 53
WW 52
Two kids 21, 18

DDay 1/15/2013


Posts: 261 | Registered: Mar 2013
Betrayed444
♂ Member
Member # 38389
Default  Posted: 10:09 AM, August 3rd (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

B444, rock star return brother. Were you on leave or something?

Thanks Brother.
I've kind of been on a little sabbatical. Jumped into work and performed a lot of overtime to create more space.
I'm kind of being laid back. Giving my WW more of an opportunity to talk. Maybe giving her some breathing room to get comfortable.
I've come to all the conclusions I can possibly come to at this time.
I saw POSER re emerge on FB and made myself perfectly clear that any contact at all is a direct violation of our terms. Do not pass go, do not collect $200.00.
If he contacted her I should know regardless of my attitude. I was there dude. I was going to file. If any incursions happen again I'm done. Seriously. No more Ddays.
If any news of other OM's surface I'm done.
Any other revelations, I'm done.
If I find out from any other source then her. Roll the dice.
I understand that it is I that discovered all her transgressions. She never volunteered any major details other than some lurid ones and nasty sexual acts. And that is because they did in fact happen and I demanded to know. And we're not stupid enough to accept the basic vanilla, plain missionary style.
I threw down the gauntlet and this is the ultimate line in the sand.
I don't need her. The 180, detachment, and the advice of all my bro's here convinced me of what I already knew. She needs me. Undoubtedly. She could have left. If OM's were so much better why is her sorry ass still here?
Because I imagine they saw her for the train wreck that she is but kamikaze'd that pussy. Isn't that what they are all about. They picked her because they didn't want a relationship. Hell, POSER had a girlfriend on the side unbeknownst to her. OM #2 was going through a divorce, had some money, and referred to WW as a potential trophy wife. When I tried to "communicate" with him he denied ever knowing her although we all met before with my family.
WW said she understood and gave me a barrage of I love you's, I understand, I will, I promise, I hate him, he's nothing, etc.
well see
She's been put through the ultimate ringer and has paid a very high price both civilly and legally. Karma was a serious bitch here. Brutal.
Her character, self respect, reputation. Etc. she's restricted from transporting the kids, ruined her credit, and has a criminal record.
She fucked up by the numbers.
I don't feel bad
I know that's strange but I don't feel for her. Decisions and actions result in consequences. And those consequences will support me and my custody of the kids which in turn offers support and safety.
It sucks that this happened. I wish it never happened just like all of us feel this.
I can't celebrate valentines or anniversaries the same. I don't brag about her like I used to. I don't post family pictures of us anymore. It's just me and the kids now. I'm not proud. I can't trust.
It sucks. Makes you think why bother. Why let her stick around. It's not cool. Shouldn't we want a person that makes us better? That were excited to see. That we trust completely? That has your back?
I had to step back a bit and reassess the situation. Being angry hurts nobody but myself. I have a responsibility to my kids to carry on and be the dad I can be.
Infidelity is like a cancer. It will eat you up. R is like chemo but if that tumor gets worse you have to remove it. I'm in chemo now. I don't know what stage she's in but if its unrepairable then ill have to go in and get my attorney to perform surgery.

[This message edited by Betrayed444 at 10:14 AM, August 3rd (Saturday)]


Posts: 494 | Registered: Feb 2013
jjct
♂ Member
Member # 17484
Default  Posted: 11:15 AM, August 3rd (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Being angry hurts nobody but myself.

Yeah, I know - but you just gotta be it, until one day, you're not. The objective is indifference.

Let it flow controlled. Cold. With direction.
Sounds like you got this 444.

I just finished "Unbroken" (@ Louie Zamperini) & "American Patriot" (@ Bud Day)
Have you read those?
You need to if you haven't brother.


Posts: 6005 | Registered: Dec 2007 | From: texas
Betrayed444
♂ Member
Member # 38389
Default  Posted: 11:42 AM, August 3rd (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

DP

[This message edited by Betrayed444 at 11:43 AM, August 3rd (Saturday)]


Posts: 494 | Registered: Feb 2013
Betrayed444
♂ Member
Member # 38389
Default  Posted: 11:43 AM, August 3rd (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks JJ. As always you are money.
I'm focusing anger in as positive a manner as I can. I smile. Play nice. Get along and just let it flow controlled. Work, the gym, maintain.
I won't let her see me too upset. I won't give her any satisfaction or give the acts importance.
I find that honey attracts more harmony than salt although it is very clear I am far from over it.
I seem to get further in conversations about the affair if its nonchalant. WW is willing to give up more info and has been more comfortable about it.
I don't have to repeat myself now that there has been no miscommunications.
At least I think so.
The Drill Sergeant came out and delivered a clear and precise outline on where we were at.
Whether its taken seriously in the future is another matter. However I know what IM going to do. I will not accept it again, hell I haven't accepted it now. Now it's just "give me any reason"
And that sucks
I don't like being this person towards someone I love. I don't even know if I want to love this person anymore in the capacity of true love. This isn't what love is.
But with someone who has gone so far outside of the lines of everything a marriage is supposed to be I have to take a hard right. Either correct this course of direction or crash and burn and I've already put on my chute.

Thanks for the reading referral. Will check it out

Remember
They cheated because they wanted to, they lied because they could, and now they are sorry because they got caught. It's always about them. We did nothing to cause or deserve it.

AND

Loyal men don't get enough credit.

[This message edited by Betrayed444 at 11:50 AM, August 3rd (Saturday)]


Posts: 494 | Registered: Feb 2013
Sal1995
♂ Member
Member # 39099
Default  Posted: 12:20 PM, August 3rd (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Doe your wife feel shame? If so, do you find it hard to love her? If not, do you find it hard to love her. My wife is ashamed of herself. But it doesn't seem to matter to me.

She does feel shame, Mike. As well she should, because what she did was shameful. No need to tap dance around that with her. She told me last night that she thinks I'll eventually heal, but she doubts that she ever will. That she feels "dirty" when she thinks about what she did. At times it appears that she is experiencing something similar to triggering.

Hard to love her? I always love her. Never stopped. But I often find it hard to feel loving towards her. Trust and respect are the biggest casaulties.

We had a much better go of it last night. Stayed up talking to 3:00 a.m. She was devastated over a week ago when she expressed her pain and I ignored her. I've been thinking about this a lot so far today - a part of me has resented the notion that I need to be there to comfort my wife over the pain caused by her behavior, especially when I'm in such terrible pain myself and she, not I, chose this for us.

But if R is your goal, then maybe the cause and effect need to be separated. Being there for your wife while she hurts is not an endorsement of what she did to cause the hurt. A BS shouldn't have this burden in the first couple of months, but at some point if R is to go forward, you need to adopt a "we're in this together" approach. Unless festering resentment is the goal.

Thoughts?


Me-45
WW-42
DDay 2/17/13, 10 month PA/EA
Final NC late Feb. '13
M - 18 years, together 19+
4 children

Reconciled


Posts: 1025 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Texas
mike7
♂ Member
Member # 38603
Default  Posted: 12:29 PM, August 3rd (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

i'm glad you still love her Sal. And sorry for calling out what you posted. i sometimes feel we are in very similar positions.

i guess I feel the same way. I don't trust her and I've lost respect for her.

my wife feels the loss of both of those pretty severely. it's like she finally woke up to what she was risking/throwing away. But just because she appears to have woken up, it doesn't mean that i automatically trust and respect. kwim? Just because she's recognized the damage, does not remove the damage.


BH 53
WW 52
Two kids 21, 18

DDay 1/15/2013


Posts: 261 | Registered: Mar 2013
thinkingclear
♂ Member
Member # 38884
Default  Posted: 12:33 PM, August 3rd (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

do any of you feel like moving on?

I'd be lying if I didn't chime in. This has been on my mind almost constantly for the last few weeks.
I'm having a hard time loving the person that I know she is.

I really don't feel any love for her anymore. She has eroded it completely. Right now it is hard to believe that this feeling would ever change.

We had a crappy week, but you couldn't tell by looking at her. She is back to playing the good housewife role as if all is good in the world. I was an asshole Thursday morning and now it seems I'm acceptable. She can do this she says. So reassuring.

She just doesn't string enough good days together to get me interested. Indifference is setting in. She can feel it, but still doesn't get it. She told me that I just couldn't let go of the victim role (another way of saying I should get *over it* IMO). She asked me why I don't get mad at my staff at work? Why is only she that I seem angry with? WTF Seriously? I personally don't think that she is seeing my anger as much as she is seeing my disdain. I'm trying to weather the storm. I'm in no hurry. If this is a phase I'll find out. BUT, right now it appears that the path of least regrets will not include her.

I don't like being this person towards someone I love. I don't even know if I want to love this person anymore in the capacity of true love. This isn't what love is.
But with someone who has gone so far outside of the lines of everything a marriage is supposed to be I have to take a hard right. Either correct this course of direction or crash and burn and I've already put on my chute.

Good to have you back B444. I think I'm already on the ground and chute back together. I'm just trying to determine which direction to move in now.

I think it has always been a deal-breaker for me. I think I've been ignoring myself. I love my boys and I'd do anything for them, but this? I think if my wish list had been fulfilled I might have been able to *go with it* a little longer, but with the scraps I've been given it is become more than I can stomach. The person that she *was* is the same as the person she *is* with the exception that she hasn't cum for him and turned around and cum for him again lately. She has always portrayed that she was staying because she was *supposed* to. Now she has morals and convictions?

Anywho, I guess that is my long winded answer to yes, I do sometimes think about moving on.


BS - Me
WW - Her
10 month EA/PA

Posts: 211 | Registered: Apr 2013
thinkingclear
♂ Member
Member # 38884
Default  Posted: 12:42 PM, August 3rd (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Sal

Your thinkingclear my friend.

I like the approach and I'm glad things are looking up for you. I believe R is about being there for one another, even when you'd rather not. Heck, that's what M is, isn't it. I've heard about good R situations. I've never actually seen one up close, so you might get some better answers from some of the successful vets.


BS - Me
WW - Her
10 month EA/PA

Posts: 211 | Registered: Apr 2013
flup
♂ Member
Member # 21259
Default  Posted: 1:31 PM, August 3rd (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

do any of you feel like moving on?

Yep... In the same boat, Mike. Detaching has made it easier for me to be a bit objective about all of this.

Personally, I feel like the "ilybinilwy" acronym... I mean, I feel love for her respecting our time together, but, if she was stuck and killed by a rhino tomorrow, I think I would feel relieved. Not really relieved that she was dead, but just relieved that the rain of bullshit that is me dealing with her A's, is 95% over.

I'm trying to look at this as the same way that I look at her fucking OM before we were married... But the lying and the betrayal aspects smack me in the head and tell me to wise up.

We just got into another discussion about her A's the other night before I left on another road trip. I asked her 'how she could just go on, knowing the destruction she caused.' I told both of the BS's in my case, and they moved out of town. The OM had called squealing about me outing him on a public website for BS's to out cheaters. His name on that site was coming up as a pretty top google hit on his name, and his whole family was asking him "wtf". Sufficed to say, I told him it would stay up until his BS called me so we could talk. She called me and told me that everything I had tried to tell her in the past was true, and that they had moved to be away for that "toxic area".

I asked my fWW, how does it feel to have caused that? Do you seriously feel nothing for having caused such pain, destruction, embarrassment, and did I mention destruction? How can you just ignore what you did? How can you just la-de-da your way away from that?

She just told me that she CAN'T go back and dwell on it. That it was too painful and she has to "change the tape" in her head, or she wouldn't be able to function.

I guess I'm glad she has remorse, but I was a bit disturbed that she caused so much damage, for such stupid, puddly, selfish reasons, that I think that I can't be IN love with someone like that. ... And she had worn a slinky nightgown to bed that night, but I didn't even feel bad, that there was no nookie for me that night. I have to know things about her to make decisions about the two of us together.


As HST would say.... Selah.


Me: BS 55
Her: fWW 50

D-Day #1: 12 Aug. 2008. WW's 2nd affair w/college teacher.
D-Day #2: 18 June 2009. Affair #1 with neighbor was fall of 2002 - while I was coping with the fallout from 9/11.
Still trying to R.
22 years married


Posts: 426 | Registered: Oct 2008 | From: Ohio
Sal1995
♂ Member
Member # 39099
Default  Posted: 3:36 PM, August 3rd (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Sal
Your thinkingclear my friend.

First time for everything, TC.

I believe R is about being there for one another, even when you'd rather not.

Yeah, if you want to reconcile what else can you do. I guess at some point normalcy has to set in or an otherwise remorseful WW might start wondering if she was justified stepping out on her jerk of a husband, after all. Wallowing in self-pity and self-righteousness becomes contagious.

It's not fair - just part of the shit sandwich betrayeds have to chew on from time to time. But if your spouse is remorseful and trying to repair the marriage, I guess you have to let it go at some point and take yes for an answer.

I really don't feel any love for her anymore.

Sorry to hear that TC. I hope she does what it takes to turn that around. Unintended consequences are a bitch.


Me-45
WW-42
DDay 2/17/13, 10 month PA/EA
Final NC late Feb. '13
M - 18 years, together 19+
4 children

Reconciled


Posts: 1025 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Texas
Betrayed444
♂ Member
Member # 38389
Default  Posted: 3:40 PM, August 3rd (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I think it has always been a deal-breaker for me. I think I've been ignoring myself. I love my boys and I'd do anything for them, but this? I think if my wish list had been fulfilled I might have been able to *go with it* a little longer, but with the scraps I've been given it is become more than I can stomach. The person that she *was* is the same as the person she *is* with the exception that she hasn't cum for him and turned around and cum for him again lately. She has always portrayed that she was staying because she was *supposed* to. Now she has morals and convictions?

That's it TC
It is a deal breaker. We don't have to put up with this ,but for my boys I jumped on that grenade however in the long run is it worth it?
Lets say WW follows the remorseful WS guide book. Does everything she's supposed to. Actually feels it.
It's still a deal breaker. She still committed the act. She was still capable of a deep betrayal. Technically it's still a sex crime. She fucked someone else. Went down on someone else. Came home and didn't bat an eyelash. That's not my wife or the person I married. Or maybe it is and I was blind to that. She isn't my ideal woman.
She's carrying on with the housewife persona and is trying
But I'm still disgusted. I dislike that feeling and I feel like I'm resigning myself to accept sub par. Like I have to suck it up and drive on and in all seriousness it isn't fair to her. She deserves to be happy also and it is destructive to her as well. If she so badly wanted to be on her own she should follow through and if I'm going to harbor resentment and turn into the guy she said I was then R isn't helping anyone and it certainly isn't in the kids best interest at that point.
It's a mix of dilemma's.
points and counter points.
If it weren't for them I feel I would have popped smoke immediately. And in a way it seems like she took them for granted because they sure as hell weren't of any concern when she was banging OM.
I think a lot has to do with the fairy tale of the past. We miss that woman that we married and despise the woman she became. It's her I still feel for and in a way it's hard to abandon her but I know she's not coming back so I have to reason with this replacement and guide her on how to be more like Cinderella. This person is broken. Has baggage. Trauma. Most importantly I have to realize that I can't fix that. I can't. I can maintain my bearing. Take care of myself and the kids and be there as a hand rail for WW while she decides how she's going to get her act together.
I can't really be surprised or caught off guard anymore. She won't be screwing anyone but herself. I'm a stronger person now than I was pre dday. I never thought she would fuck around on me. I was too comfortable and thought highly of myself because I took care of my family. We're all susceptible.
At some point you have to give them some slack. Let out the rope so to speak and if they hang themselves with it then that's it.
On an edit
Absolutely don't get me wrong. I'm not saying let it go. Guide her through her thoughts. Listen to what led her there. Apply corrective pressure to allow her to see her own blame shifting and the error of her false justifications. But what do I know. Hasn't worked for me yet but it will seem to be a smoother ride. Technically I've already let go so there may be an upside since she is trying to make it better now. Ill let her do the work for awhile.

[This message edited by Betrayed444 at 3:48 PM, August 3rd (Saturday)]


Posts: 494 | Registered: Feb 2013
tfkeel
♂ New Member
Member # 19517
Default  Posted: 5:21 PM, August 3rd (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Haven't been around in a while.

Just listened again to Dr. Harley (Marriage Builders) give a speech on infidelity.

Dr. Harley points out that MOST marriages don't recover from it.

A lot of people keep living together after it, but the marriage itself is dead as a doornail.

I feel like I'm resigning myself to accept sub par.

No question about it. That's exactly what it is. Accepting something less than what marriage is supposed to be.

Seriously, back in the days when you were courting... if she fucked around on you then, would you have married her?

If she had a "reputation" back then of pulling pud on a couple of other women's husbands?

Personally, if I had it to do over again, I would haul ass.
Hanging in there "to please God" and "for the kids" was foolish. It didn't affect the smallest hair on God's head, and all it got my kids was a broken home to LIVE IN
rather than a solid, single parent taking care of them and
teaching them that what their mother did is WRONG.

[This message edited by tfkeel at 5:26 PM, August 3rd (Saturday)]


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