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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: Betrayed Men Part 12
Tred
♂ Member
Member # 34086
Default  Posted: 6:33 PM, August 13th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I find myself saying the same things to them.

Truth is universal. I've thought so many times about just having a template to post to a new BM - simple things that are always true. Then just edit it to fit their circumstances. Things like get tested for STD's, see a lawyer, not your fault, the three C's, time is on your side, you don't have to make any decisions right now, the Menz thread is the best forum on SI, eat/drink/sleep, put yourself first, self care is important, tell the other BS, read the Healing Library, read the FAQ'S, re-read the Healing Library, and it goes on and on. However, I don't want my posts to be mechanical. I spent a lot of time in JFO when I arrived here - most of the names are gone. Not too many of us in R. I still read there every day. Every now and then like Aesir once said, I'll "adopt a newbie". It just gets hard with so many stories you feel like you need a spreadsheet to track whose wife f'd the police chief and whose was banging dudes on AFF.


Married: 16 years (14 @JFO)
D-Day: 11/09/11
"Ohhhhh...shut up Tred!" - NOT the official SI motto (DS)

Posts: 3306 | Registered: Dec 2011
thinkingclear
♂ Member
Member # 38884
Default  Posted: 7:19 PM, August 13th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

It just gets hard with so many stories you feel like you need a spreadsheet to track whose wife f'd the police chief and whose was banging dudes on AFF.

Awesome. I needed that. Thanks


BS - Me
WW - Her
10 month EA/PA

Posts: 211 | Registered: Apr 2013
SuperDuperWonderboy
♂ Member
Member # 34716
Default  Posted: 7:20 PM, August 13th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Ahh, the "welcome to SI, the best club you never wanted to join" standard greeting.

Funny Tred, I also thought about creating a standard "list" to put into JFO posts. Didn't do either because the pain in JFO is just to tangible. You and I joined within about a month or so of each other I think. There are a few Menz that have stuck around in the R forum. You, me, I think Brandon joined about the same time too. There are a couple of others, but I forget at the moment (this post rambles because I stopped in the middle of it to talk to my son about being thankful).

So where was I? Oh yeah, tough to keep track of all the newbies, and it sucks that so many of em just keep coming. It's weird, when I first got here all I did was post in the JFO forum, then I moved to R (even though I really wasn't in R for the first 8 months). Now, well, I don't post too much. I read stories, maybe post where appropriate, and post where inappropriate. But every now and then we gotta make sure we adopt a newbie. I remember how painful JFO is.


My Friends call me Wonderboy--That's Mr. SuperduperWonderboy to you Tred.


Posts: 1267 | Registered: Feb 2012 | From: Everett
jjct
♂ Member
Member # 17484
Default  Posted: 7:51 PM, August 13th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Tred and wb, I may be just fishing and not catching with this,
but it feels like the golden line we fish on,
that,
newb menz need the help understanding what we here have sussed out.

I mean, it hurts me they so desperately cling to their identities - so subsumed in the M or the W they are! They're so often lost in their thinking, you can hear it in their words....it is such a pattern, peculiar to menz.
They're somehow responsible.
It's something they did or didn't do.
et ALLLLL!

FTN.
I'm tired and speechless sometimes. While another brother bleeds in front of me.
That sucks.

Thanks guys. You strong buncha bastiges.


Posts: 6032 | Registered: Dec 2007 | From: texas
DefiledRage
♂ Member
Member # 39292
Default  Posted: 8:11 PM, August 13th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I find myself saying the same things to them.

No problem with that what-so-ever. Because its exactly what needs to be heard.
I'm extremely grateful for those words, even if you've had to repeat them over and over until I came bumbling along to No'MAAM land. I'm just glad you keep repeating them so I could hear them.

I think a spreadsheet would be interesting, if for nothing but to realize all the similarities. I mean what movie has everyone watched to make these stories so much alike.

They're somehow responsible

Rewriting ones identity is a hard thing to do. I still feel this way sometimes even though thanks to you guys I know logically its not true.

Anyways thanks fellas!

yuck, too many nice feelings for the guys here....excuse me whilst I go do something manly now!


Me:35 WW:34 M:13yrs
3 young children
Dday 1 EA 7/8/2010
Dday 2 PA 3/1/2013 same OMM for 4yrs

Mister rabbit says, "A moment of realization is worth a thousand prayers."


Posts: 429 | Registered: May 2013 | From: Two blocks from south shit and west hell
StillGoing
♂ Member
Member # 28571
Default  Posted: 8:17 PM, August 13th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

To inject some more geek back in here, the XCOM: Menz has shot down the Overseer UFO after we finally threw together some plasma cannon toting Firestorms. Bigger and slh are our only psychic bros so they never go out on the same mission together. Sal got himself mind controlled again but 5454 stunned the Ethereal before he did any damage.

SUFFER NOT THE XENOS TO LIVE


“Fate is a fickle bitch who dotes on irony.”

Posts: 7119 | Registered: May 2010 | From: USA
h0peless
♂ Member
Member # 36697
Default  Posted: 10:56 PM, August 13th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

They're somehow responsible.
It's something they did or didn't do.

I've been doing a lot of thinking about this exact thing, mainly because I am still pretty angry with myself for wallowing in that hole for so long. I think it's really and truly about power. It's about the belief in justice and getting what you have coming to you. I always thought I was a pretty good husband. I wasn't perfect. Sometimes I would put off doing Thursday's dishes until the weekend. Stuff like that. When my wife cheated, it must have been my fault. Society taught me that and my own misapplication of the theory of relativity to human relationships needed to be reexamined before I could let it go.

I have to say that once I let go of that responsibility, once I accepted that perhaps I was good enough and she was just screwed up, it was incredibly freeing.

It's just really tough to accept your own insignificance at first.


Posts: 1326 | Registered: Sep 2012 | From: Arizona
StillGoing
♂ Member
Member # 28571
Default  Posted: 7:02 AM, August 14th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

It's just really tough to accept your own insignificance at first.

This is so apt.

It's also really tough to remember it's our insignificance that lets us see the awesome in the universe, that it isn't helplessness or meaningless but a tiny part of the whole. That everyone else is, too. That when they fuck up, even though we're all connected, it's their fuckup in a vast sea of awesome shit that in the end doesn't care either way and the great part of that means it will still be there to enjoy and be awesome when we come out of the pain and can bear to see it again.


“Fate is a fickle bitch who dotes on irony.”

Posts: 7119 | Registered: May 2010 | From: USA
thinkingclear
♂ Member
Member # 38884
Default  Posted: 7:02 AM, August 14th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

it is such a pattern, peculiar to menz.

I think that the pattern stems in part to the nature of the trauma that infidelity brings into our lives. I've never fought in battle, but I would assume that if I had witnessed a fellow solider die in battle, that I would somehow want to take responsibility for that happening. I mean why would I be allowed to walk away but he wasn't. Could I have done something different? Was it my fault?

We all know how traumatic finding out your WW has been unfaithful. I think the pattern of taking responsibility as you assess the aftermath is nearly universal in men. It takes some time for the smoke to clear and for us to see reality as it is.

It is folks here that helped me see things for what they are. IC has been helpful in dealing with some other issues, but it was the men here that truly set me straight. For that I am eternally grateful. So however we do it, by spreadsheet or word document, the standard opening response to the JFO crowd needs to be consistent and repeated often. Peoples lives can literally hang in the balance.

On a similar but somewhat unrelated side note. We have been discussing knowing and seeking details in my IC sessions lately. The topic of trauma has come up a lot. My psychiatrist thinks I have a *form* of PTSD. We have discussed the content of the 1000s of texts, e-mails and VMs that I've read or listened too. His take is that I know way too much sexual details for my own good. He tells me that the more details you know, the more defined the trauma and the harder the recovery. He said, I have to know enough to make an informed decision, but that I would have been better off not taking in so much information. Water under the bridge now.

I'd agree. I am someone who wants all of the details of everything in life. I research and re-research vacation spots, major purchases, etc. I don't do anything without some planning. Unfortunately, knowing everything that I know has been quite troubling over the last year or so. I have phrases and words rattling around in my head nearly constantly. I am now in my 6th month of weekly IC sessions and it isn't a lot better. The memories are engrained and they mean a whole lot more to me than they do to either my WW or her POSER. I bet they wouldn't even remember half of the texts that I can rattle off word for word. My only objective here is to offer a word of caution if you find yourself looking for more information about the A. At some point, enough information is enough. I think I breached that line.


BS - Me
WW - Her
10 month EA/PA

Posts: 211 | Registered: Apr 2013
wincing_at_light
♂ Member
Member # 14393
Default  Posted: 7:16 AM, August 14th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Early on, I got hammered with all of the things I didn't do, how I didn't support her enough, didn't do enough housework, didn't watch the kids closely enough while she was studying -- essentially, all the reasons that she had to go to OM's house, which was the same as forcing her into his arms.

The thing was, I knew that none of the charges were true. I knew I *had* picked up the slack when she went back to school. I knew that at least 3 nights out of every week, I was the one at home watching the kids, making dinner, cleaning the house, getting the kids put into bed. I knew I was the one who got them up for school every morning while she slept in until 10 or 11 AM before class.

Then I started thinking about all the women who joke about how their husbands can't do the dishes without announcing it or wanting a pat on the head.

And I realized, "You stupid bitches, your husband doesn't give a shit about your kudos for doing basic house chores. He does the fucking house chores because they need to be done and you're probably too busy curling your hair or stuffing shit into your vag to feel emotionally complete.

He has to announce it because otherwise you're going to bitch at him about all the shit he doesn't do that you think he should be doing. He's got to tell you he's doing it and have an actual observer, because otherwise it's going to be like it never happened and you're going to punish the fuck out of him: even if it's just running down his invisible lack-of-contribution do your idiot drunk girlfriends."

So, even though I'd been the "dishes guy" in our house for 12 years or whatever it was up to D-day, I made sure that I didn't do the dishes unless my wife was standing in the kitchen. I didn't cook dinner without making sure she saw me doing it. I didn't do laundry without saying things like, "Hey, do you have any clothes you need to get in this load? I'm about to start the laundry."

It's not about "look at me and what I did", it's about "pay attention, you fucking dumbass".

Not that it matters, of course. If your wife wants to sleep around, she's going to create her own justifications no matter what the truth is. As many of us who have experienced TT know, you could hand a WW an itemized list with photos, video and certified timestamps of all the things you've done that she says you're not doing, and she'll deny the evidence.

It's just part of the process. This is why we don't take our self-improvement guidance from our WW's for (at least) the first year after D-Day. She's got too much on her plate cleaning out all of the shit she's stuffed into her vag to be a good feedback resource.


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6690 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
wincing_at_light
♂ Member
Member # 14393
Default  Posted: 7:18 AM, August 14th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Addendum:

Just wanted to add that I miss you guys, and it's great to catch up on the work you're doing.

We're exhausted and go, go, go all the time with the new kids, school starting, blah, blah, blah. It's been a re-education remembering all the ways that 5 and 2.5 are different than 19 and 15.

But it's a good exhaustion, and we're getting back in the swing of it.


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6690 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
StillGoing
♂ Member
Member # 28571
Default  Posted: 7:29 AM, August 14th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

He has to announce it because otherwise you're going to bitch at him about all the shit he doesn't do that you think he should be doing. He's got to tell you he's doing it and have an actual observer, because otherwise it's going to be like it never happened and you're going to punish the fuck out of him: even if it's just running down his invisible lack-of-contribution do your idiot drunk girlfriends."

So, even though I'd been the "dishes guy" in our house for 12 years or whatever it was up to D-day, I made sure that I didn't do the dishes unless my wife was standing in the kitchen. I didn't cook dinner without making sure she saw me doing it. I didn't do laundry without saying things like, "Hey, do you have any clothes you need to get in this load? I'm about to start the laundry."

It's not about "look at me and what I did", it's about "pay attention, you fucking dumbass".

Ouch. I never looked at it that way but it sums it up perfectly.


“Fate is a fickle bitch who dotes on irony.”

Posts: 7119 | Registered: May 2010 | From: USA
jjct
♂ Member
Member # 17484
Default  Posted: 7:43 AM, August 14th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Yah wal! & SG on the emotional needs thread in G. Right on right on.
tc, you do have a form of ptsd.
Trick is to own it, in time it will fade away.
No such thing as "too much knowledge" - you didn't cross a line. You just lifted a heavy weight & strained sumpin sumpin.
Rest. Ice. Relax, and "above all" (pun incoming!)
ELEVATE!

Hey y'all - get Platinum. Right now.
I found:

It can be tough being a guy here…

It’s been drilled into us that women don’t cheat and that they only leave marriages because they are unhappy and that the man isn’t contributing to the marriage. When a wife does this, the assumption is made that the husband did not treat her with love, care, respect her needs, or nurture the relationship and that the dissatisfaction has long been tried to be communicated. A lot of posts by men show them blaming themselves for the affair and taking the responsibility and burden for their wife’s behaviour. This is ridiculous.

True, there are marriages that end for those reasons, but those reasons have become so easily accepted that they are quickly defaulted to and are often used to justify affairs. These are simply defense mechanisms for the wayward partner to avoid their own personal responsibility. In many cases the marriage is quite good before the OP enters the picture. When that happens, energy is diverted from the marriage to the new relationship as it slides down that slippery slope. Couple this with the devaluation of the faithful spouse to justify the affair and the marriage quickly suffers. It is often easier to place the blame on the marriage or the faithful spouse than for one to face themselves and the pain and devastation they have caused.

The fact is that the wayward partner has a form of emotional immaturity wherein they are seeking external validation to fill their ego. It has nothing to do with the faithful spouse, the quality of the marriage, or even the other person. It is all about the wayward spouse falling in love with who they see themselves reflected back as. Affairs happen because of two main reasons: Motivation and Means. If the opportunity presents itself, and if a person’s desires override their value system then it is likely to occur. The fact is that the wayward partner is the only one who can take responsibility for the choices that they made. You can’t control that. Neither sex has a monopoly on selfish behaviour. Don’t buy into it being your fault or the marriage's fault and let it warp your self image. Your spouse chose the affair and to escape reality out of ignorance, fear, or inadequacy. It had nothing to do with you. Period.

(now which missing brother does that sound like?)


Posts: 6032 | Registered: Dec 2007 | From: texas
thinkingclear
♂ Member
Member # 38884
Default  Posted: 8:22 AM, August 14th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

You just lifted a heavy weight & strained sumpin sumpin.
Rest. Ice. Relax, and "above all" (pun incoming!)
ELEVATE!

So what I'm hearing you say is that I need to get a lime slushy from Dairy Queen for some good old fashioned brain freeze?! It seems like a reasonable approach. It is worth a try. lol


BS - Me
WW - Her
10 month EA/PA

Posts: 211 | Registered: Apr 2013
jjct
♂ Member
Member # 17484
Default  Posted: 9:23 AM, August 14th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

That's one way.
Here's another?
.
.
.

Do you guys realize how much money we could raise for SI?
(we already did the perfume names & working on the movie)

Back to the spreadsheet idea.
Call it "The Menz Template" maybe?
Either way, I am all for it.


Posts: 6032 | Registered: Dec 2007 | From: texas
MoreWould
♂ Member
Member # 37982
Default  Posted: 9:38 AM, August 14th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'm still looking for a copy of the Waywards Handbook, Bitch Edition. Damn my FWW's A was over 30 years ago and she quoted a couple of lines out of it the other night like she'd been up all night studying.

We all know it exists, but finding a copy is like chasing rainbows. Still, I think we could patch together a good working approximation just from the WW's comments that get posted here in BMenz.

TC and everyone. You got the green part right. You need to spend some time here in Colorado (Washington state will do too). There's nothing like it to damp out triggers and A-related anxiety attacks. "Blue sky, green grass... ..."


Me BH/WH, 63
Her WW/BW, 62
Her DDay Dec 1976 OMW at the door
My DDay, ~ 2years later, confessed ONS the next day
R via "Sweeping under the rug"
Still married, 40 yrs, mostly OK
2 kids, 24 & 20

Posts: 347 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Colorado
5454real
♂ Member
Member # 37455
Default  Posted: 10:03 AM, August 14th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I think the spread sheet idea would be great. Early on, I didn't post. Lurked for a couple months. Then, once I joined, honest to God, every single time I had a situation/question, someone had posted EXACTLY the same thing either the same day or the day before. Never the same person either. Got to the point I was actually a little freaked out over how similar the situations were.

SG, in keeping with the geek line. When I first got here, the OM was, in my mind, a full fledged Chaos Marine. Through what I've learned here, I've got a full set of Dreadnaught armor and the OM is a POSER. JFO was my training ground. Menz, the true battleground where I learn the true capabilities of my weapons!


BH 50, WW 41
DS 23(Mine),SD 21,SS 19(Hers),DS 8 Ours, DGS 2 1/2
D=Day #1 5/04EA (Rugswept)
D-Day #2 3/10/12, TT til 3/13/12
Married 10yrs
“I have no love for a friend who loves in words alone.”
― Sophocles, Antigone

Posts: 2087 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: midwest
StillGoing
♂ Member
Member # 28571
Default  Posted: 10:27 AM, August 14th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Was this you at a summer BBQ, 5454?

eta:

If we are going to go geek, we need to go full geek: MANOWAR + WARHAMMER


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBmVndzNIkI

[This message edited by StillGoing at 10:40 AM, August 14th (Wednesday)]


“Fate is a fickle bitch who dotes on irony.”

Posts: 7119 | Registered: May 2010 | From: USA
thinkingclear
♂ Member
Member # 38884
Default  Posted: 11:25 AM, August 14th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

There is a part of me that wants to pretend I don't have any idea what you guys are talking about, BUT I have two big time gamers. My 13 and 15 year old boys could follow the gaming references without a problem. I may ask them to translate this weekend when they drag me to GenCon all day Saturday. I figure if I can put up with a WW I can put up with some folks in costumes playing with foam swords and painting little figures for a day.


BS - Me
WW - Her
10 month EA/PA

Posts: 211 | Registered: Apr 2013
wincing_at_light
♂ Member
Member # 14393
Default  Posted: 11:42 AM, August 14th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Holy shit, dude! You're going to be at GenCon in Indy? I'm like 40 miles south of there.


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6690 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
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