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User Topic: Betrayed Men Part 12
jjct
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Default  Posted: 6:33 AM, August 19th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I can't go back to the quiet resignation of toxic misunderstandings

Tweaking it a bit SG,
I can't go back to the unquiet resignation of toxic misunderstandings...

SG, channeling Henry David, for the WIN!


Posts: 6024 | Registered: Dec 2007 | From: texas
Mr. Kite
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Default  Posted: 10:09 AM, August 19th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Don't know for sure when society made the switch from Ward Cleaver as role model for a husband and father to Al Bundy, but it happened. The husband used to be the authority figure in the family, according to Hollywood that no longer applies. How's that working out?

Am thinking of pitching a TV show to Hollywood called "Raising Mrs. Kite." When she's speaking, her part should be played by Sandra Bullock(who is WW's doppelganger) When I'm speaking or trying to get information out of her, her part could be played by a cigar-store Indian or any inanimate object in order to save on production costs. There should always be sad violin music in the background.

For my part I recommend Brad Pitt or George Clooney but will settle for one of the older guys on Duck Dynasty.

The pilot episode will be called "Honey You Shrunk My Dick."

Theme music will be "Whipping Post" by the Allman Brothers.


Posts: 900 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Mid-Atlantic
ReunitePangea
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Member # 37529
Default  Posted: 10:28 AM, August 19th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

You guys rock.....I'm going back a couple pages on you guys but your convo on emotionally unavailable (EU) men was a great read.

Thanks for the good advise.

[This message edited by ReunitePangea at 10:48 AM, August 19th (Monday)]


BS - Me 38
WS - Wife 39
D-Day - Oct 12
Married 10 years
OM1 - 12-year LTA
OM2 - 9 month A turned into open relationship with couple for another 1 1/2 years

Posts: 406 | Registered: Nov 2012
Tred
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Member # 34086
Default  Posted: 10:38 AM, August 19th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Just a brotherly reminder that we shouldn't drag conversations from protected threads into our sanctuary. Badass is lurking...


Married: 16 years (14 @JFO)
D-Day: 11/09/11
"Ohhhhh...shut up Tred!" - NOT the official SI motto (DS)

Posts: 3305 | Registered: Dec 2011
wincing_at_light
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Member # 14393
Default  Posted: 10:42 AM, August 19th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Right! It's natural for threads in other forums to spark discussion on the topic itself, but we need to avoid referencing or criticizing particular posters or threads in a venue where those involved can't fairly defend themselves.

If you really need to do that, use your PM's or the No Ma'am SI Chapter Facebook group[*].


[*] Note: This does not actually exist. But it should.

[This message edited by wincing_at_light at 10:43 AM, August 19th (Monday)]


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6690 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
ReunitePangea
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Member # 37529
Default  Posted: 10:49 AM, August 19th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Sorry guys.....I edited my above comment to remove the referenced stuff. Thanks for the reminder.

I think that issue bothers me because I can tell my WW is trying to go down that path some. Cause of you guys I know to quickly redirect those type of comments and don't let her try to blame her A on that.


BS - Me 38
WS - Wife 39
D-Day - Oct 12
Married 10 years
OM1 - 12-year LTA
OM2 - 9 month A turned into open relationship with couple for another 1 1/2 years

Posts: 406 | Registered: Nov 2012
MoreWould
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Member # 37982
Default  Posted: 11:03 AM, August 19th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

When she's speaking, her part should be played by Sandra Bullock(who is WW's doppelganger) When I'm speaking or trying to get information out of her, her part could be played by a cigar-store Indian or any inanimate object in order to save on production costs.

Do you remember the classic comic strip Calvin and Hobbes, where the stuffed tiger was real and very animate from Calvin's point of view, but just a limp rag to his parents? Same gig, I love it.

I my case, my W, previously known as WW, then FWW, now graduated back to W, takes on different descriptions depending upon when in this long road I'm referring to (her A was 30 years ago but I still suffer from occasional PTSD attacks).

But I was never accused of being EU. She was so EU she didn't notice how EA (Emotionally Available) I was. We've made some progress on that, I think she is now actually capable of feelings at times. Mostly when she's mad, but that's a start.


Me BH/WH, 63
Her WW/BW, 62
Her DDay Dec 1976 OMW at the door
My DDay, ~ 2years later, confessed ONS the next day
R via "Sweeping under the rug"
Still married, 40 yrs, mostly OK
2 kids, 24 & 20

Posts: 347 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Colorado
RyeBread
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Member # 37437
Default  Posted: 11:13 AM, August 19th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

wow, come back from the weekend and all kinds of good convo going on.

As far as EU goes, I was told many times that I was unemotional, uncaring, emotionaly immature, won't talk about my feelings because I didn't have any... blay blah blah. What I found through IC is exactly what WAL said, my emotionaly abusive wife didn't make a safe place for me to express myself. I had to build walls to "protect" myself. I don't have a problem with expressing my emotions or desires to other people. A light went on the day I realized that. I finally told STBXWW I didn't feel safe expressing things around her. And the reason wasn't my EU, but her unwillingness to be respectful of me. I then made a conscious effort to take away the power I gave her over me. The last step in that process for me is D. My situation goes beyond just the A but it did help me to realize how far I had let myself become a whipping post.


Let him that would move the world first move himself. - Socrates

Posts: 957 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: Midwest
StillGoing
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Default  Posted: 11:14 AM, August 19th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Don't know for sure when society made the switch from Ward Cleaver as role model for a husband and father to Al Bundy, but it happened. The husband used to be the authority figure in the family, according to Hollywood that no longer applies. How's that working out?

Ah, hm. This must be what I am not understanding.

The problem with Ward Cleaver was that he was completely incompetent outside of his element. The only reason he was an authority figure in his family is because he was supposed to be an authority figure. He's pretty much the reason we have films like Mr. Mom, where dad is a bumbling oaf when tasked with the enormity of keeping up with laundry or dishes or goodness forbid, interacting with his kids beyond weekends in the woods and a discussion over the dinner table.

I don't think Al Bundy is a role model either, so much as he is a parody representation of what the reality of Ward Cleaver really is when you strip away the unreality of the situation. The Beaver never unintentionally killed anyone with a pipe bomb in the mailbox, Wally never had to deal with being the unpopular kid he casually derided and his greatest challenge was translating between Beaver and his parents which, IMO, just demonstrates the massive disconnect there as obviously as possible.

I am not really up on the network pop culture of the moment since most of my viewing comes from Netflix streams with my boys. That said our home is 75% penis ratio and littered with the detritus of small boys managing to survive the unforgiving tromp to adulthood. There are a couple rockets complete with refill engines and wadding lying in the living room, toy trucks and cars quite literally all over the place (I expect there's an entire fleet lurking in the air ducts by now); various trading card games, some kind of toys that are basically tops, but fitting out with all sorts of shit on their edges to kill each other. Endless arrays of legos and star wars and marvel figures and sets, Playmobil pirates and castles, zombies, planets, glow in the dark stars.. boy shit.

So most of my forays into television anymore are either with my wife (I can't sit still for Glee long enough to do more than cheer the insane cheerleader lady sometimes even though she is evil) watching shit like Lost or Psych! or some horror flick if she can convince me, or a scifi if I can convince her. Otherwise it's me and the boys, so the bulk of my media exposure is to the stuff they market to growing boys and teenage boys (I do play a lot of video games and chat with my teenage nephew enough to be aware of that demographic).

Right now, the shit they are selling to boys is about as testosterone laden as you could possibly get. It dwarfs the 80s. The 80s were a wimp decade compared to this one. The heroes and role models presented to kids *are* those kick ass and take names guys. I am gonna ramble a bit about cartoons some, and books, and the occasional film wrt media for young boys and teenagers.

First two I am going to bring out and put on the table are reworks of old favorites. Wreck it Ralph - yeah he is bumbling and big but the entire film centers around why everyone else is an asshole for treating him like shit just because he's, well, the traditional villain role. It's an easy parallel to the traditional Big Strong Male role. Ralph gets sick of that shit, does not like where he is or the assholes he is stuck with and goes off to prove them they're a bunch of dicks and get himself a hero medal. Obviously peer acceptance is not a great ultimate goal but this is a kids story and does a good job along the way of showing why Ralph is awesome no matter what those assholes think. He even rescues a princess (who is somehow so irritating and annoying she crosses into the other side as cute) and does the traditional Hero Quest shit including making himself hated to save someone he loves, and then giving up his own life to save a bunch of other people. Ralph is a big, bumbling tough guy with an extremely limited skill set locked into a villain role, and the film says: fuck that noise, use what you got and be who you want.

Next up, since I mentioned the 80s, lets talk GI Joe. That cartoon like Transformers and all the others were basically 20 minute ads. Ads for Bad Ass Mother Fuckers but ads nonetheless. They had their stupid KNOWING IS HALF THE BATTLE shit at the end and nobody ever died but they still solved their problems with violence and... I don't think they actually solved any problems other than through violence. Violence: It's what's fun. Same with the A-Team. Murdock was always my favorite character because he was batshit insane and loved doing crazy shit. Face was, well, fuck it, you guys know the A Team.

The new GI Joe show is called GI Joe: Renegades and basically fuses GI Joe and the A Team, and somehow makes it all not-stupid. I am still in awe at their writers. The main characters are all ethnically diverse and squabble all the fucking time, but they are soldiers. Duke is a high school football champ and has a rivalry with the MP commander chasing them around. They were both star quarterbacks but he banged more cheerleaders or something I dunno. They have to deal with real shit as well, including members of the team getting killed or captured and tortured because while violence is what is for dinner it carries consequences and it's cool to be buff and badass but even the magic ninja gets beat down sometimes.

Another slightly older but still current show, Avatar the Last Airbender. Rather than the single hero, you again have a representative group of different role models. Aang, who won't eat meat and tries not to hurt people, next to Sokka who is an ass and loves meat and hits things whenever he can. Sokka is developed as a character just as important and inspirational as any of them, in fact almost moreso as he is the most accessible - he has no magic powers, and he gets several episodes focused entirely on how fucking hard he has to train to be just that badass. He even forges his own sword. Sokka is my favorite so I don't want to hear about how awesome Zuco is. Even if he is awesome. Uncle Iroh is the benevolent elder figure, indomitably powerful but reservedly wise, and so self confident he doesn't bother to take himself seriously unless it's to show respect for others or reflect on his own pain.

There are a lot more out there. I really hate Harry Potter, the kid who wins by letting other people do the work so he can reap the accolades, but my kids love that too and I keep my mouth shut. They also love How to Train Your Dragon, and the books are significantly different from the film - you have the wimpy kids who get beat on by the tough kids, but you also have the tough kids who fight alongside them (and occasionally get eaten by dragons,or worse things), and the main villain is a scheming, skinny asshole while the heroes are big, burly hey diddle diddle straight up the middle kinda guys.

Most of the young men in the socioeconomic bracket of concern these days are more heavily influenced by video games than tv anymore, anyway, and the transition of engaging storytelling to the gaming platform has really taken a turn for Awesome also. I don't much like the Mass Effect games mechanics wise (and I think the story fell out on 3) but it's not possible to argue that Commander Shepard is not the traditional Leader Of Men type. In fact I will even go so far as to say the same-sex romance was done with class and somehow all felt very manly. It made me feel admittedly somewhat uncomfortable, not because it was skeevy but because they developed the characters to the point I looked at it like "Nah bro, I like tits, lets go shoot some more shit." I mean Zhevran is a bitch and if you put him in a dress you wouldn't know him from a chick but he's an elf and part of a series where they took the idea of a pirate queen from the adult film Pirates. I seriously wonder if Dragon Age 3 will feature Victor Stagnetti as one of the old gods reborn or something and can only be stopped by Isabella and her Magical Chest.

I am sure there is a lot of media aimed at the ridicule of traditional male roles, but there is just as much or more aimed at respecting and even glorifying it. My boys have basked in the warm glow of phosphorescent testosterone to such a degree they refuse to use pink game pieces, avert their eyes when Girl Stuff comes on TV (I will ambush them with My Little Pony or Barbie and shit sometimes just to hear the howls of rage) and are more into sports than I am even though they don't really like playing them.

This isn't just my boys either. It is all the boys their ages and older that I have seen. All their heroes are the self-possessed, self respecting and self reliant types.

If its media that is aimed past that and into the 20's and onward then it doesn't concern me much, because it's aimed at people who can either think for themselves or are watching shit like reality tv and are lost causes anyway (I MEAN THAT AS A GENTLE JIBE(mostly)(<3)(that's a heart not a ballsack)))).

Okay sorry for the long rambling tomfoolery. Most of that was thinking out loud and I wasn't trying to be preachy.


eta:

As far as EU goes, I was told many times that I was unemotional, uncaring, emotionaly immature, won't talk about my feelings because I didn't have any... blay blah blah. What I found through IC is exactly what WAL said, my emotionaly abusive wife didn't make a safe place for me to express myself. I had to build walls to "protect" myself. I don't have a problem with expressing my emotions or desires to other people. A light went on the day I realized that. I finally told STBXWW I didn't feel safe expressing things around her. And the reason wasn't my EU, but her unwillingness to be respectful of me. I then made a conscious effort to take away the power I gave her over me. The last step in that process for me is D. My situation goes beyond just the A but it did help me to realize how far I had let myself become a whipping post.

Just wanted to say, this is where we were at for so long also. While it did not end up in D for us, I could have written the same thing. Probably with more cartoons and less succinctly and well said. I think this has to be part of the WS, if not specifically WW procedure manual since it seems to come up so often. Like the main theme of disrespect and dehumanization.

[This message edited by StillGoing at 11:25 AM, August 19th (Monday)]


“Fate is a fickle bitch who dotes on irony.”

Posts: 7116 | Registered: May 2010 | From: USA
RyeBread
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Default  Posted: 11:23 AM, August 19th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

On a lighter note my No Ma'am fishing trip was awesome. Caught a couple bass, 1 noteworthy, the rest not so much. The best part was the company I was with, the beer I drank(ended up with boulevard wheat ale), the ~35ft cliff I jumped off of, and the endless amount of grilled meats. I could have stayed another couple days at least.

The guys and I are now planning another No Ma'am weekend in October.


Let him that would move the world first move himself. - Socrates

Posts: 957 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: Midwest
StillGoing
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Default  Posted: 11:26 AM, August 19th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

RB that sounds fucking awesome.


“Fate is a fickle bitch who dotes on irony.”

Posts: 7116 | Registered: May 2010 | From: USA
wincing_at_light
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Default  Posted: 11:26 AM, August 19th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My takeaway there is that we should all spend more time watching cartoons.

I'm completely down with that.

ETA: Avatar was huge in my house. An Avatar marathon meant we all dropped what we were doing and sat in front of the TV all day. It was absolutely epic storytelling, and probably one of the more nuanced, complex narrative arcs I've seen out of television in the last 10-15 years.

[This message edited by wincing_at_light at 11:29 AM, August 19th (Monday)]


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6690 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
jjct
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Member # 17484
Default  Posted: 11:26 AM, August 19th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Mr. Kite, very funny. A puppy just came back to life bc of that post.

Posts: 6024 | Registered: Dec 2007 | From: texas
RyeBread
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Default  Posted: 11:27 AM, August 19th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Sorry SG. Cross posted with you and didn't realize if taken out of context I just totally undermined your perspective.

well said by the way


Let him that would move the world first move himself. - Socrates

Posts: 957 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: Midwest
RyeBread
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Default  Posted: 11:32 AM, August 19th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

RB that sounds fucking awesome.

It was, minus the sunburn. But I'll take the sunburn as a badge of honor since it was earned by sitting under the hot sun to prove to fish that I was still at the top of the food chain.


Let him that would move the world first move himself. - Socrates

Posts: 957 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: Midwest
Later
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Default  Posted: 11:44 AM, August 19th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I don't know what you guys are talking about. There are good male role models on TV.

More recent examples include Andy Griffith and The Rifleman. Pretty diverse too, one never carries a gun and the other walks around with a Winchester everywhere he goes.


Posts: 384 | Registered: May 2013
wincing_at_light
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Default  Posted: 11:49 AM, August 19th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Later defines "more recent" in geological terms, apparently.


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6690 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
StillGoing
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Default  Posted: 11:50 AM, August 19th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

ETA: Avatar was huge in my house. An Avatar marathon meant we all dropped what we were doing and sat in front of the TV all day. It was absolutely epic storytelling, and probably one of the more nuanced, complex narrative arcs I've seen out of television in the last 10-15 years.

Same here. I am trying to be patient with the Korra discs since they are supposed to be a surprise for the kids but it's not easy to wait for it.

Something else to think about with Avatar - the princess is an irredeemable sociopath with daddy issues and a clear warning to young men everywhere that you don't get near that level of crazy, no matter how much she may rev your engine, because it's like sticking your cock into an electrical outlet that will fuck with your head and make you feel guilty Hanniba

eta:

Wasn't.. I mean, Andy Griffith.. Barney Fife.. I don't.. divide by wut

[This message edited by StillGoing at 11:51 AM, August 19th (Monday)]


“Fate is a fickle bitch who dotes on irony.”

Posts: 7116 | Registered: May 2010 | From: USA
Later
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Default  Posted: 11:55 AM, August 19th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Doing the best I can with what I have to work with WAL. Seriously though, when times get tough I like to watch a little Andy and Barney. It's amazing how that show still delivers. Or maybe it's just because I can recall watching it with my dad in the afternoons.

As far as movies go, it's hard to beat Saving Private Ryan. Tom Hanks was excellent in that film.


Posts: 384 | Registered: May 2013
Mr. Kite
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Default  Posted: 11:56 AM, August 19th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Do you remember the classic comic strip Calvin and Hobbes, where the stuffed tiger was real and very animate from Calvin's point of view, but just a limp rag to his parents? Same gig, I love it.

Sure do. I love that comic strip. I have a theory that my WW hears my voice the same way that the kids on Charlie Brown hear adult voices - like muted trumpets.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ss2hULhXf04

Wow SG! Thanks for that. DS is 22 so I haven't watched children's programming in many years. Back in the day it was 'Power Rangers,' 'Sesame Street' and 'Thomas the Train Engine.' I did however bond with him over 'The Simpsons' which would account for his warped sense of humor.

The point I was making about Ward Cleaver and Al Bundy is that there was a time when male figures were represented on TV as being not perfect but more noble and capable than they are today. But then how to explain Eddie Haskell?


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