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User Topic: How Do You Build A Foundation Of Trust With A Liar
Reyna13
♀ New Member
Member # 40178
Default  Posted: 2:09 PM, August 21st (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Is General the forum place I should post on? At one time I thought we were in R, but no more.

He was the love of my life. After a bad divorce, I never wanted to date again. Then he came into my life 15+ years ago and I was so in love. He was everything I ever wanted.

Just after our 10th wedding anniversary I found out by reading in his e-mail account he had a secret phone. Then I broke into another account and read many e-mails and chats between him and his old HS GF. I almost puked when I saw it. I also saw airline tickets where he had flown to her hometown when he was suppose to have been with friends doing something else.

Then the lies started. First it was they only met for dinner, then it was they kissed etc. Then it was some oral sex, but he could not perform (get a erection). I actually e-mailed the OW and heard her lies. Some matched, she said no intercourse ever happened and she also said he had issues.

I finally contact OWH and told him about the A. Well he wrote me back several times with the truth he got from OW. I confronted WH and he admitted to most of what she had said.

I really hoped we were in R, this was about 2 years ago. He has done everything like he was suppose to. I even but a keylogger on his computer, he quit his job, total transparency and we are together 24/7. We work from home. The only thing I know for sure is that there has been no contact, but always that nagging GUT feeling that he never told me the truth.

Then a few weeks ago I told him I could not continue pretending all was OK. Our sex life, once so great is not good. I was not healing because I knew he was lying to me about what happened. Well he told me more. Yes they had sex, unprotected sex, several times. There was multiple trips to see each other.

I hate talking to him about it, because he still says "I didn't want to go see her, she wanted that" and "I could not keep an erection, so I never came" and oh heck you all know the BS they say. This same man who swore the first D-Day on our children's lives he was telling me the truth.

Yesterday we talked again and he says he is doing all he knows to do and I said exactly!!! For 4 years I have read books, I have set up therapy for us, I have done my own healing while your life goes on like before.

I am so angry and bitter. He has all these excuses for not telling me. My favorite is, you said it was a deal breaker, so how could I tell you we had sex. I was afraid you would leave me. OMG you put my life at risk, you who swore to love and protect me.

I am not sure about any of you, but each D-Day is worse than the last, each D-day makes you doubt everything about your life. I told him, you tainted everything, I have no idea if anything you have ever said is the truth.

I'm scared and so very tired!


Me-BS 45
Him-WS 45
Married 14 years
1st D-Day August 2009
TT for 4 year
More Affair info August 2013

The wound keeps getting broke open each time he tells me more "truths"


Posts: 20 | Registered: Aug 2013
krazy8516
♀ Member
Member # 40076
Default  Posted: 3:47 PM, August 21st (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Reyna, you seem to be talking more about TT than additional d-days. They just don't get it that ALL of the truth ALL at once is better than us finding out more info further down the road.

I can't answer your question (How do you build a foundation of trust with a liar). I'm still working on this myself. I feel like we could both do everything right for the next 50 years, but that doesn't change what he did. I can tell you it's damn hard, that's for sure.

I'm with you. Scared and tired - no, terrified and exhausted. And lost.

::hugs:: to you!


me: BW, 30
him: WH, 25
us: edging closer to R every day

married 2y, together 2.5y
1 beautiful daughter, 23m

"Someday soon, I'm going to put my life together; Win or lose, I'm starting over again."


Posts: 368 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: Texas
WhatsRight
♀ Member
Member # 35417
Default  Posted: 4:07 PM, August 21st (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I don't think you CAN build a foundation with a LIAR - but you can with a basically good person who has told some lies.

To me there is a difference.

If you ever learn how to tell the difference - pls let me know!

I'm still trying to figure out which one my WH is.


"Noone can make you feel inferior without your concent." Eleanor Roosevelt

I will not be vanquished. Rose Kennedy


Posts: 1850 | Registered: Apr 2012
showmetheway
♀ Member
Member # 26242
Default  Posted: 4:15 PM, August 21st (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I don't think you can.

He sounds a lot like my H. He swears he's told me everything, but then the other day I caught him lying to me again about a recent event (see my post in Reconciliation Topic: This should be the final straw... but I'm too weak

I don't know what lies he's told me in the past, prior to the A. He says that this was his only indiscretion, but I've always had my doubts - and now I know how he can still lie to me after all the hurt, I have absolutely no reason to believe anything he's ever said.

He tells me what he wants me to believe in order to get what he wants. That's what I think. I don't know if it's deliberately calculated, or if he's just so weak himself that it's just a massive flaw in his personality. Whatever the reason, it means that having a fulfilling relationship with him is impossible.


BS Me 50
FWH 43
Married 9 years (together 13yrs)
D-day June 09
In R

Posts: 175 | Registered: Nov 2009 | From: UK
womaninflux
♀ Member
Member # 39667
Default  Posted: 4:18 PM, August 21st (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My H is a chronic liar as well...has a history of telling little things to make himself sound more interesting or impressive. I'm sure he did it with the AP as well. It's natural for him...he's done it since a very young age.

He is undergoing IC and CSAT counseling in addition to MC. This is definitely something I want to zero in on. He's starting to become more truthful about the details of the affair - trips they took, etc. - that he wasn't forthcoming about in the aftermath of DD. This is a big step for him.


BS - mid-40's
SAWH - mid 40's
Kids - 2 elementary school aged
Getting tons of therapy and trying to "work it out"

Posts: 855 | Registered: Jun 2013
Reyna13
♀ New Member
Member # 40178
Default  Posted: 6:25 PM, August 21st (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I honestly felt alone, thank you all who replied. You are right, I guess they were not D-Days as I thought that was when you learned more, but I guess it means the A never stopped. So yes he has TT'ed me for 4 years.

What is so bad is that he has only come clean on one thing by himself and that was it was unprotected sex. Everything else I learned and confronted him and then and only then did he admit to anything.

He did share with the OW that he had an A on his first wife. Something we had talked about so much over our marriage and he always denied ever having done that. Now he h as admitted that too.

I cannot believe that someone who used to make my heart beat so fast just by kissing me, now I cringe. I admired him so much, was so proud to be his wife. I can barely stand it when someone says we make a perfect couple.

He was raised by parents who both cheated and married their AP. His whole family thinks lying is perfectly normal. I was raised the opposite.

I was more than willing to try and make this work right after D-Day, but lie after lie, how do you trust. I know I'm asking the impossible, no one has the answer, do they?


Me-BS 45
Him-WS 45
Married 14 years
1st D-Day August 2009
TT for 4 year
More Affair info August 2013

The wound keeps getting broke open each time he tells me more "truths"


Posts: 20 | Registered: Aug 2013
Kierst13
♀ Member
Member # 39197
Default  Posted: 6:43 PM, August 21st (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

It amazes me how effortless it is or my WS to lie. The lies flow effortlessly from his lips with no second thought.

The more I think about who he is showing me he is, the more I think I should run.


Story in my profile
He lied, I gave the gift of R
He became the model remorseful WS...all while lying and seeing her
Am I done? Yes I am!

Posts: 347 | Registered: May 2013
gonnabe2016
♀ Member
Member # 34823
Default  Posted: 7:29 PM, August 21st (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Reyna, given your WH's history.....you canNOT trust him. He is completely untrustworthy.
You've now been together for almost 15 years, right?
And he is just NOW owning up to the fact that he cheated on his first wife? Well, that probably would have been some good information for you to have had......

I am 5+ years from Dday. I KNOW the toll that being constantly lied to takes on you. Heck, I just received *more* TT (unsolicited by me) about a week ago.

Building a foundation is a 2 way street. If you're the only one that's doing the paving, then your foundation is gonna suck.

You say that he's doing everything like he was supposed to....and the list is pretty good. I have a problem with him saying that he's doing 'all he knows to do', though. And for pretty much the reasons that you pointed out......this guy's the one that thought the proper thing to do was to have sex, multiple times, with someone that wasn't his wife. He's not read a book and he seems to not be in IC. And yet he's still relying on himself to 'know' what to do.

But let me ask this: right now, what is his attitude towards lying? Besides the A stuff, is he making efforts to NOT lie to you by any means (overtly or omission)? Does he pro-actively bring things up to you that, in the past, he may have 'waited' for you to bring up?
These are the types of things that I was focusing on in my own marriage. My stbx had a f'd up upbringing and I was able to 'understand' that those deeply ingrained habits and patterns do not just change overnight. But I needed to see *progress*. I needed to see that he was working to untangle that messed-up web that he carried into adulthood. And I didn't see it because it wasn't happening. He continued to lie to me about day to day things (stbx, did you look at my cell phone? His answer: No. <-- Lie) and to show me that he would lie to get what 'he' wanted: we were considering starting up another business that was *the same but 'different'* than the one we have now. He told me that we needed to 'bury' the ownership of it so that the current clients wouldn't be able to see what he was doing. I told him that if he believed that it was such a conflict that we just shouldn't do it. And it never came to fruition...for many reasons.....but it gave me a clear indication that he would still choose to do 'wrong', kwim? As long as the truth remained hidden, then he would do it instead of saying "no, that would be wrong."
And then the day came that we were standing in the kitchen waiting on a school bus and he initiated a conversation. It started with this: "I often wonder if I did the right thing by telling you as much as I have" (btw, he's a serial-cheater, who at that time, still hadn't been honest with me). But I waited to see where he was going to lead this conversation. He chose to take the wrong direction by following up with: "because I know lots of guys that are lying to their wives and they're HAPPY!" I asked him to leave very shortly thereafter. He had basically just told me that he didn't see his *actions* as the problem......the problem only occurred if I *found out* about them.

The way that I see it is that you have 2 choices at this point. Realize that your WH has most likely lied to you about the past and tell yourself that you have as much info as you need to know and choose to focus on the future (if he is making efforts to lead a more 'authentic' life now).....or work on detaching and possibly ending the marriage.


"Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive." - Sir Walter Scott

In my effort to be *concise*, I often come off as blunt and harsh. Sorry, don't mean to be offensive.


Posts: 7684 | Registered: Feb 2012 | From: Midwest
Reyna13
♀ New Member
Member # 40178
Default  Posted: 10:06 AM, August 22nd (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Gonnabe2016,

I have read your post several times and will probably read it several more. I have to say it scared me, because everything you say is true and I guess I never wanted to face the truth in which you speak.

I am not sure I have it in me to leave. I have no income and have been out of the work force for so many years, I also have several health issues that I need the insurance he provides for me and the list goes on.

I am not making excuses just saying all the things that have gone through my mind since reading this post.

Thank you, you have given me so much to think about and I have to tell you I just cried myself to sleep last night after I read this. It's hard to face the truth sometimes.


Me-BS 45
Him-WS 45
Married 14 years
1st D-Day August 2009
TT for 4 year
More Affair info August 2013

The wound keeps getting broke open each time he tells me more "truths"


Posts: 20 | Registered: Aug 2013
Nature_Girl
♀ Member
Member # 32554
Default  Posted: 1:00 PM, August 22nd (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I am not sure I have it in me to leave. I have no income and have been out of the work force for so many years, I also have several health issues that I need the insurance he provides for me and the list goes on.

I am in that same boat. I understand the major dilemma that puts you in.


Me = BS (Stay-at-home-mom)
Him = EX-d out (abusive troglodyte NPD SA)
3 tween-aged kids
Together 20 years
D-Day: Memorial Weekend 2011
2013 - I DIVORCED HIM, I'M FREE!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBOJpIwF47Y

Posts: 9248 | Registered: Jun 2011 | From: USA
showmetheway
♀ Member
Member # 26242
Default  Posted: 4:01 PM, August 22nd (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I have no income and have been out of the work force for so many years

And me...


BS Me 50
FWH 43
Married 9 years (together 13yrs)
D-day June 09
In R

Posts: 175 | Registered: Nov 2009 | From: UK
Reyna13
♀ New Member
Member # 40178
Default  Posted: 3:21 PM, August 25th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Gonnabe,

I keep returning to this thread and what you wrote. It's like someone is slapping me in the face and screaming at me to wake up.

I was one of those people who said 'if my H ever cheated on me I will kick him to the curb'! I actually did when I found out my first husband cheated, he was also abusive, I was young and looking back I wasn't in love with him. Made the choice easy.

The difference this time is I love him so much, how do you turn that off. I can remember everything about our relationship, all the things that made me love him, but now I can feel and remember everything he did to make me hate him.

I have decide to sit him down and tell him what I need and that is he has to find out what is wrong that he lies so easily. He also needs to show me what you mentioned.....

Does he pro-actively bring things up to you that, in the past, he may have 'waited' for you to bring up?
.....The answer is no he doesn't do that.

If he cannot fix the things that are wrong with him we cannot fix our marriage. I may have to stay in a broken marriage, only time will tell.


Me-BS 45
Him-WS 45
Married 14 years
1st D-Day August 2009
TT for 4 year
More Affair info August 2013

The wound keeps getting broke open each time he tells me more "truths"


Posts: 20 | Registered: Aug 2013
gonnabe2016
♀ Member
Member # 34823
Default  Posted: 5:31 PM, August 25th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Well crap. I'm sorry (and I'm a bit reluctant to say too much more at this point.....)

But IMO, real R doesn't start until both parties have laid all their cards out on the table. The WS has to have told you what you have needed to know or made a 'good-faith' effort to do so. The BS needs to take time to sit with the information and think of whether it is an immediate dealbreaker or not. And then comes the commitment to work on R by *you* working on yourself, *him* working on himself....with work on the marriage itself to follow.

I hesitate to slap the angry/bitter label on you right now, though, because I think that you have a good reason to be angry. You just had a pretty *major reveal* only a few weeks ago.

IMO, regardless of whether you are going to remain in the marriage or not, stepping back and detaching a bit may be helpful for you. It'll give the dust some time to settle and allow you to clear your head a bit and think more clearly. Perhaps speak to a L for information-gathering purposes only -- to ask about the specific concerns that you have regarding your financial and insurance status. Information is power. (if you already spoke to one, then scratch that....I just know that sometimes what we *assume* is not always correct).

When I mentioned the 'pro-active' thing, you realize that I wasn't referring to any past or A-related stuff, right? I was thinking more along the lines of......say, he paid a bill late and incurred a late fee. Just *life* stuff -- PARTNER stuff.

The one thing that I've really noticed is that you CANNOT have a true partnership with a liar. That doesn't mean that you cannot have any type of relationship.....just that you will have to adjust your expectations.


"Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive." - Sir Walter Scott

In my effort to be *concise*, I often come off as blunt and harsh. Sorry, don't mean to be offensive.


Posts: 7684 | Registered: Feb 2012 | From: Midwest
Reyna13
♀ New Member
Member # 40178
Default  Posted: 9:27 PM, August 25th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

But I am angry and bitter and heartbroken and embarrassed and alone and scared and and and......

Why are you sorry. I think you have me thinking. I also think you are spot on about my H. I'm not sure I know what to do, but I do believe looking back over our relationship he has lied to me more than I wanted to admit.

He needs to find out why he lies and learn to be able to be truthful to me. He needs to get into IC along with us being in M C.

If I'm taking this wrong help me please.


Me-BS 45
Him-WS 45
Married 14 years
1st D-Day August 2009
TT for 4 year
More Affair info August 2013

The wound keeps getting broke open each time he tells me more "truths"


Posts: 20 | Registered: Aug 2013
scaredyKat
♀ Member
Member # 25560
Default  Posted: 9:31 PM, August 25th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Gonna has given you wonderful advice. I'm going to add something. My FWH was also a chronic liar. About anything, big and small. Also a SA. It's been a long journey, but with IC, 12 steps, and hard work, along with me not allowing any deviation from realty, he is becoming a man of integrity.
He's 62. Long overdue.


Me-BS-60-Can't tell you how painful it was to change this number!
HIM-SAFWH-63
Damn autocorrect is responsible for the silly errors, sorry!

Posts: 3264 | Registered: Sep 2009 | From: In my head
scaredyKat
♀ Member
Member # 25560
Default  Posted: 9:32 PM, August 25th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Gonna has given you wonderful advice. I'm going to add something. My FWH was also a chronic liar. About anything, big and small. Also a SA. It's been a long journey, but with IC, 12 steps, and hard work, along with me not allowing any deviation from reality, he is becoming a man of integrity.
He's 62. Long overdue.


Me-BS-60-Can't tell you how painful it was to change this number!
HIM-SAFWH-63
Damn autocorrect is responsible for the silly errors, sorry!

Posts: 3264 | Registered: Sep 2009 | From: In my head
gonnabe2016
♀ Member
Member # 34823
Default  Posted: 11:15 PM, August 25th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'm sorry because I know how hard it is to deal with this kind of thing on a long-term basis. I'm sorry because I know what it feels like to have that "Omg. He is nothing but a fucking liar" moment. I'm sorry that my words were the ones that caused you anguish and tears because they were a part of ripping the rose-colored glasses off.

On the one hand, I'm 'okay' with imparting the information because you really need to hear it....but on the other, it kinda sucks to deliver it, kwim?

But I am angry and bitter and heartbroken and embarrassed and alone and scared and and and......

I know that's how you feel *right now*. Just be mindful of your self-talk. Instead of saying to yourself that you are angry and bitter.....say "today I'm feeling angry and bitter." Subtle, but important, distinction.

And Yay. SK weighed in....so now you have both sides of the spectrum. Mine -- the chronic liar that wants to 'ignore' the lying issue and *solve* it himself. And hers -- the chronic liar that recognizes a problem and works to address it.

He needs to find out why he lies and learn to be able to be truthful to me. He needs to get into IC along with us being in M C.

I'm having a problem with this. After 4 years, you shouldn't still be at this point. I think it's 'bitch boot' time. The lies stop and he works to become an 'authentic' individual, or the marriage (as he knows it) stops. I don't know that MC would be productive for you right now unless you find a counselor that is going to be the gateway to shunting him into IC. Going to MC for 'marriage counseling' with a chronic liar is only setting yourself up for more brain damage, IMO.


"Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive." - Sir Walter Scott

In my effort to be *concise*, I often come off as blunt and harsh. Sorry, don't mean to be offensive.


Posts: 7684 | Registered: Feb 2012 | From: Midwest
Reyna13
♀ New Member
Member # 40178
Default  Posted: 5:52 PM, August 26th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Yes I understand everything you have said and you continue to be honest and throwing out the advice I need to hear, not just blowing smoke up my ass. Hmmmm never did understand that blowing smoke thing, but you get the point.

I have done a lot of thinking, sadly the lying has always been there. I believe I have been living with two men. The charming, intelligent, loving husband and the lying, cheating person I chose not to see. It was there from day one.

You are also right about therapy. Geez how many have we gone to already prior to the A and after. Did any of them help, not really, but we also NEVER talked about his lying.

Again thank you all for the advice, I'm listening to all of it. It is helping me, I have a long road ahead of me. I may be here at SI needing help a lot.

[This message edited by Reyna13 at 5:53 PM, August 26th (Monday)]


Me-BS 45
Him-WS 45
Married 14 years
1st D-Day August 2009
TT for 4 year
More Affair info August 2013

The wound keeps getting broke open each time he tells me more "truths"


Posts: 20 | Registered: Aug 2013
sodamnlost
♀ Member
Member # 37190
Default  Posted: 6:46 PM, August 26th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

You are right, I guess they were not D-Days as I thought that was when you learned more, but I guess it means the A never stopped. So yes he has TT'ed me for 4 years.

I tend to disagree. Dday is short for discovery day no? TT is a BULLS&*T word, sugarcoated for LIES. There is no truth in there - they are LIES. Flat out. I get angry about this terminology - maybe I just need some ice cream or a bottle of wine.

Whatever you call it - new info HURTS. Almost a year out from Dday and learning new info and yeah - I cannot even imagine this yearS out from dday...


If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck - it's not a fluffy pink unicorn squirting liquid rainbows, complete with pots of gold out of it's ass.

Posts: 750 | Registered: Oct 2012 | From: Nowhere pretty
Reyna13
♀ New Member
Member # 40178
Default  Posted: 8:12 PM, August 26th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

It seems as if every year I learn a new truth, a painful truth. I keep telling him with each time it becomes harder to forgive and try to save whatever it is we have.

It's been a rough few years, I had two surgeries and lost my father.

I hope you have better luck than I did. This really is the worst "club" to ever need to join.

[This message edited by Reyna13 at 11:49 PM, August 31st (Saturday)]


Me-BS 45
Him-WS 45
Married 14 years
1st D-Day August 2009
TT for 4 year
More Affair info August 2013

The wound keeps getting broke open each time he tells me more "truths"


Posts: 20 | Registered: Aug 2013
Topic Posts: 25
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