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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: Betrayed Men Part 13
thinkingclear
♂ Member
Member # 38884
Default  Posted: 11:13 AM, August 29th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

On the surface it looks like a complete lack of empathy, but deeper it reveals what you say - DENIAL - is the learned coping skill.
Exactly! Her first reaction to me displaying displeasure is how that displeasure displeases her. It is denial of the cruelty of her actions followed by a lack of empathy - two for one, yeah for me!

She proceed to call me again this morning and chew me out for asking my 15 year old to try and hitch a ride with one of the other soccer players to the bus tonight. I've been trying to get him to befriend one of the numerous other players to get a ride from the school out to the sports complex which is about 2 miles. Right now my WW (SAHM) runs everyone around to tennis, soccer, doc appointments, etc. He is a sophomore and I have felt can learn a little more independence and responsibility. He doesn't need his step-mom to bring him his bag and clothes and drop him off. It is something I've been talking to him about for about a month.

My WW called me up furious that I was putting the kids in the middle because I implied that she didn't want to do it for him anymore. Nothing even close to that came out of my mouth. I let her vent but told her I didn't see it the same way.

She cooled off and sent me another text:

TC I just want you to know that everything will be ok no matter what decision you make! I totally understand that the demise of our relationship is my fault and my heart breaks for it!!! So sorry for my anger and hope you find peace somewhere! I love you, DS1 and DS2 with all my heart and will never put that at risk again no matter where you and I end up! Love you
I really think I'm done. 2 years of nearly daily drama, frustration and pain is quite enough.

[This message edited by thinkingclear at 11:14 AM, August 29th (Thursday)]


BS - Me
WW - Her
10 month EA/PA

Posts: 211 | Registered: Apr 2013
atsenaotie
♂ Member
Member # 27650
Default  Posted: 11:14 AM, August 29th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

"Why didn't they tell us about this?"

FWW did tell me about it, I just lacked a benchmark to understand the importance and warning in what she was saying.

She talked of her parents, especially her mother drinking, called her mother an alcoholic.

In my life drinking was fun. My parents were very social drinkers. Friends over for Bridge, when dingy racing, with family at holidays. It was all great and fun. I did not understand that for FWW her mother drinking meant drunken rages, being brought home by strange men passed out and left at the door, flirting and touching neighbors and relatives, vomiting.

She told me how she hated her mother, and was not wild about her father. I did not undestand this and often tried to make peace with ehr and her mother, not know her mother hated me and did not want me around.

She told me about her A (exit A) in her first M. I agreed her xH was a dick and deserved it, and knew that we would have a perfect M.

She did not tell me about the rape and the CSAb until later, and it was not until the IC/MC after dday that I understood the on-going implications for our physical relationship.

I was naive, and when the M hit the rocks early on I took responsibility for the failure rather than having the confidence to stand up for how I deserved to be treated.


LTA BS 53
FWW 60
M 1990, dday 10-5-09
Reconciled

Posts: 3968 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: FL
slater13
♂ Member
Member # 39008
Default  Posted: 12:00 PM, August 29th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I know it is cliche, but again reading the responses it is like we all married the same woman.

My fWW has serious FoO issues. MIL basically had exit A with her high school fling- still married. FIL was the ultimate denial guy, still is. I hear my MIL would race home and throw onions on the stove to make sure when he got home from work it smelled like she had been cooking all day. MIL is the ultimate PA. Her daughter is a good understudy.

TC- reading about how your WW responded in those texts is exactly the way my WW acts. Last night I was having a bad day and told her so on the phone. Immediately she gets defensive and tries to flip it back on me. I said, for once can you just say "I'm sorry, it must be tough" and then let it be.

Never any empathy at all. I don't get why that is so hard for them. My IC told me today they just don't know how. So what do I do with that, I mean Ok I F'ed up when I married her, I get it.


The choices we make reveal the true nature of our character

Posts: 154 | Registered: Apr 2013
DefiledRage
♂ Member
Member # 39292
Default  Posted: 12:16 PM, August 29th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

It's easy to pick out the issues now and I kick myself for not taking a step back and really examining who I was getting involved with. While I put the A squarely on the STBXWW I do have to accept some responsibility for choosing her. I had on rose colored glasses at the time. Glasses I put on, glasses I didn't take off. So I take some of the responsibility for letting myself get involved with someone who wasn't healthy or safe for me to be involved with.

I've thought this many times myself.
However one of the funny things I've learned from reading here at No MA'AM is that you can gain entirely new insight when you here someone say exactly what you're thinking yourself internally.

I look back and did think she was different than her FOO. She was hard working, self-motivated, planned to a get a masters which she did, all and all on the up and up. Always knew she had it in her to accomplish things in life.

I like to better myself as I move through life. I thought she would continue on that path and improve herself throughout life as well. Be one of those that succeed despite their upbringing. THAT is the person I hoped I was marrying,. And while it might have been nothing but a façade, that is the person she was selling when we were dating.
That is on her to keep being that person. Just because she gave up and stopped being that person has nothing to do with me.

I guess my point is this Rye:
Everyone should inspire to better themselves in life. Just because our WW gave up because it was too much work to face their own demons has nothing to do with us. When we marry we hope, we hope that together with our spouses we will create a better future for both of us. We like to look back and think "what ifs" because it gives us some sense of power over something we all know deep down that we had zero power over.
But when it comes down to it they jumped the shark, they gave up on making themselves better, they stopped evolving, and that is solely on them.

Point of the ramble, don't let yourself take too much responsibility.
Something to think about anyway.

[This message edited by DefiledRage at 12:19 PM, August 29th (Thursday)]


Me:35 WW:34 M:13yrs
3 young children
Dday 1 EA 7/8/2010
Dday 2 PA 3/1/2013 same OMM for 4yrs

Mister rabbit says, "A moment of realization is worth a thousand prayers."


Posts: 429 | Registered: May 2013 | From: Two blocks from south shit and west hell
RyeBread
♂ Member
Member # 37437
Default  Posted: 12:33 PM, August 29th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks DR

I agree with your point too. I know that I am a different person now than the guy I was then. And same with the STBXWW. We all have to own our choices as well. I won't take responsibility for how F'd up my WW turned out to be. But I will say that I made a foolish choice at the time. I didn't have the greatest moral compass instilled in me from my FOO. That lead to a lot of bad choices on my part. But I still have to own those choices and the consequenses that come with them.

It's a big mixed up salad of this and that but ultimately I learned a lot from all this crap I am working through and feel I am in a better place to make wiser and more healthy decisions for myself. I am evolving and progressing. In the end I hope to look back and say "I may have taken 3 steps forward, 1 step back, but I ended up better than I started."


Let him that would move the world first move himself. - Socrates

Posts: 957 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: Midwest
MoreWould
♂ Member
Member # 37982
Default  Posted: 12:41 PM, August 29th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Whew! My FWW had a long list of FOO issues, but it wasn't until I first Googled ACOA that I went "Bingo!"

Giving her credit where it is due, she redirected a lot of the misplaced energy that led to her A and became one of the most financially successful people I know, man or woman.

I've done pretty well for myself too, but not like that, so sometimes I get the "This isn't what I signed up for" rap. Meaning what? A husband that makes less than her. Dang, just about everybody does.

The one thing she hasn't been able to learn is empathy. She fakes it well enough, but never convinced me it came from a deep wellspring. OK, nobody is perfect.

[This message edited by MoreWould at 12:42 PM, August 29th (Thursday)]


Me BH/WH, 63
Her WW/BW, 62
Her DDay Dec 1976 OMW at the door
My DDay, ~ 2years later, confessed ONS the next day
R via "Sweeping under the rug"
Still married, 40 yrs, mostly OK
2 kids, 24 & 20

Posts: 347 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Colorado
thinkingclear
♂ Member
Member # 38884
Default  Posted: 12:41 PM, August 29th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

It's a big mixed up salad of this and that but ultimately I learned a lot from all this crap I am working through and feel I am in a better place to make wiser and more healthy decisions for myself. I am evolving and progressing.
Agree totally! I also agree that I made some terrible choices along the way due to my own FOO issues. Live and learn. Trial by fire. Or maybe it is experience and wisdom.

I've definitely grown as a person, but I sure would have opted out of this if I had been given the opportunity.


BS - Me
WW - Her
10 month EA/PA

Posts: 211 | Registered: Apr 2013
flup
♂ Member
Member # 21259
Default  Posted: 1:30 PM, August 29th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

*raises hand also*

The girl that I was introduced to "had a reputation" around the neighborhood and the friend that introduced us thought that she'd be fun for me for a while. Her sister was the OW dating a married cop at the time and justified that relationship amongst themselves.

I got really creeped out and an alarm went off in my head when she told me she had sex with one of her high school teachers.... But, I didn't listen closely enough to the voice.

She also had the reputation of having sex with everyone she went out with, including her circle of friends.

Like a lot of us, I suspect, we settled for what we had at the time... The bird in the hand? I'm telling my son to not settle, and fight for what you really, really want - if there's anything in her past that makes you go "hmmmmmmm........." then, you should pass and look for someone with less baggage.


Me: BS 55
Her: fWW 50

D-Day #1: 12 Aug. 2008. WW's 2nd affair w/college teacher.
D-Day #2: 18 June 2009. Affair #1 with neighbor was fall of 2002 - while I was coping with the fallout from 9/11.
Still trying to R.
22 years married


Posts: 426 | Registered: Oct 2008 | From: Ohio
DefiledRage
♂ Member
Member # 39292
Default  Posted: 1:36 PM, August 29th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I guess I look back at what I knew then about her and probably would have made the same decision. Hell took me long enough to propose, I put a lot of thought into her being the one. What she had shown me to that point really did make me think she was different. Honestly, if we met today and she was the same person she was back then, the present me would still pick her.

Its all her fault for giving up and succumbing to her foo issues. I know this because I'm perfect and don't make mistakes!


Me:35 WW:34 M:13yrs
3 young children
Dday 1 EA 7/8/2010
Dday 2 PA 3/1/2013 same OMM for 4yrs

Mister rabbit says, "A moment of realization is worth a thousand prayers."


Posts: 429 | Registered: May 2013 | From: Two blocks from south shit and west hell
RyeBread
♂ Member
Member # 37437
Default  Posted: 3:49 PM, August 29th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I know this because I'm perfect and don't make mistakes!

I had WW say "It must be nice to be the perfect one!". I actually felt a little insulted that she said that. Of course in the same breath I get how screwed up I am and how the shitty state of our marriage that led her to POSER's magic penis was my fault. Whatev's


Let him that would move the world first move himself. - Socrates

Posts: 957 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: Midwest
sisoon
♂ Member
Member # 31240
Default  Posted: 4:40 PM, August 29th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I really liked and respected my ILs, who were M for close to 50 years until my MIL died. In a sense, one could wonder how my W got so fucked up coming from her family. CSA by a F/GF is probably how....
************************

Women and men are oppressed in different ways. I think a lot of women learn to suppress their sexual desire because a lot of the messaging they hear tells them to do that. Some women suppress their desire because of a healthy respect for the difficulties of pregnancy and child-rearing, which makes a lot of sense to me. Personally, I always thought women like sex about as much as men do.


FBH (me) - 65+, FWW (her) - 65+, Married 45+, together almost 49 (as of January, 2014)
DDay - 12/2010
Almost Recovered
I share my own experience not because I'm a good model but because it's the only experience I know.

Posts: 8933 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: Chicago area
Mr. Kite
♂ Member
Member # 28840
Default  Posted: 8:40 PM, August 29th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I really liked and respected my ILs, who were M for close to 50 years until my MIL died.

WW's A's began right after her Mom died. She said she had already been dissatisfied with our M and was just waiting for an excuse. My MIL's death was the excuse that set her off. Temporary insanity was and still is her excuse.


Posts: 900 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Mid-Atlantic
Ascendant
♂ Member
Member # 38303
Default  Posted: 10:09 PM, August 29th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I just found this on a site I like....figured I'd share it with you gentlemen...

One of the most important challenges facing every good man who wants to be better is to know exactly what he’s committed to. Without a clear understanding of what is acceptable and what is not, a man is untethered, and likely to find himself down a path of compromise, resentment and despair. So, what’s a better man to do? Find his N.U.T.s and maintain a firm grasp.

N.U.T.s are your Non-negotiable, Unalterable Terms. N.U.T.s are the things you’re committed to, the things that matter more than anything else: your kids, your career, your primary relationships, yourself, your purpose, your spiritual practice, your hobbies, your integrity, your morals and your psychological well-being.

N.U.T.s are the boundaries that define you as man, those things which, if repeatedly compromised, will gradually—but assuredly—turn you into a pissed-off, resentful man who will likely blame others—especially your wife—for your unhappiness.

Your N.U.T.s are uniquely yours. They reflect who you are as a man and the man you want to be. Compromise your N.U.T.s, and you’ll compromise yourself. Compromise yourself too often, and you’ll become an extremely unhappy man, husband and father.


“Anyone who has a continuous smile on his face conceals a toughness that is almost frightening.”

Posts: 1618 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Illinois
5454real
♂ Member
Member # 37455
Default  Posted: 11:25 PM, August 29th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Gentlemen, I contend that we are not alone. Some guy's response to Miley Cyrus. I thought a reminder of what we are was in order.

“My little man isn’t old enough to read yet, but one day he will be, and one day I’ll give him this letter,” he said.


Dear son,

Don’t let Robin Thicke be a lesson to you.

Don’t let any of these pigs and perverts you see on TV be a lesson to you. They treat women like garbage; they possess no chivalry, no self control; they are disloyal and dishonest; they spend all day pursuing pleasure at the expense of others, and they encourage you to do the same. You might be tempted to follow suit. In fact, you WILL be tempted. These male pop stars and celebrities, look at them, you’ll think. They take advantage of emotionally broken, self loathing, confused young women, and they are rewarded handsomely for it. Look at their nice clothes and their nice cars. Look how they are admired and loved. Look, they treat women like trash and other women fawn all over them because of it. This must be how real men behave, you’ll think.

And you’ll be wrong. You’ll be wrong about a lot of things in life — this is what it means to be human — but never will you be more wrong than when you feel the temptation to buy the lies that pop culture sells about the nature of true masculinity. Son, there is nothing glamorous or fun about being a man of low character and no integrity. What you see on TV is a facade. It’s a sales pitch. It’s poison. You see the bright lights and the sexy women, but you don’t see what happens when the cameras are off and these pop culture gods return to their lives as mere mortals. You don’t see them in their big, empty, lonely houses. You don’t see the emptiness in the pit of their souls. You don’t see all the alcohol and drugs they have to use to dull the pain of living a life devoid of real, committed relationships. You don’t see the hatred they have for themselves and for humanity. You don’t see the jealousy they have towards normal, decent men.

Your dad is no celebrity. He’s just an average, boring guy. But he’s got something that every famous and non-famous womanizer envies: He’s got the love and commitment of ONE beautiful, smart, faithful woman. He’s got your mom, and he’ll only have your mom until the day he dies. He ought to be waking up every day shouting praises to the Lord because of that.

Listen, son, don’t let the world tell you how to be a man. They don’t know anything about the subject.

Men are loyal. Men are honest. Men respect and honor women. A man goes out and finds one woman, and he vows to protect and love her for the rest of his life. A man would never betray that vow. Even the weakest and most cowardly man — if he is a man at all — would die for the woman he loves. Your dad is no hero, but let someone try to hurt your mom and watch him suddenly turn into Superman (or Batman, whichever you prefer).

See, son, you don’t have to be big and strong to be a man, although I think you will be one day. You don’t have to be “cool” or athletic. You don’t have to play guitar or fix cars. These are all fine things, but they don’t define a man. A man is defined by how he treats women, by how he keeps his promises, and by how he protects and serves the ones he loves. That’s what makes a man a man. My dad taught me that, he taught it by example. I pray I can do the same for you.

Oh, and by the way, if I ever catch you disrespecting women, I will sit you down and talk to you about it. But first I’ll kick your butt up and down the street. That’s a promise.

Love,

Your old man

Damn


BH 50, WW 41
DS 23(Mine),SD 21,SS 19(Hers),DS 8 Ours, DGS 2 1/2
D=Day #1 5/04EA (Rugswept)
D-Day #2 3/10/12, TT til 3/13/12
Married 10yrs
“I have no love for a friend who loves in words alone.”
― Sophocles, Antigone

Posts: 2087 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: midwest
Ascendant
♂ Member
Member # 38303
Default  Posted: 11:40 PM, August 29th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hot diggety damn. Very nice.


“Anyone who has a continuous smile on his face conceals a toughness that is almost frightening.”

Posts: 1618 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Illinois
aesir
♂ Member
Member # 17210
Default  Posted: 11:46 PM, August 29th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Just posted a link in Off Topic about "A Letter From Fred". Looks like there are a few other good guys out there, even if they are 96.

I think I might be a little allergic to that story based on the reaction of my eyes.


Your mileage may vary... in accordance with the prophecy.

Do not back up. Severe tire damage.


Posts: 14924 | Registered: Nov 2007 | From: Winnipeg
Ascendant
♂ Member
Member # 38303
Default  Posted: 11:47 PM, August 29th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Damn allergies. Got me, too.


“Anyone who has a continuous smile on his face conceals a toughness that is almost frightening.”

Posts: 1618 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Illinois
5454real
♂ Member
Member # 37455
Default  Posted: 11:59 PM, August 29th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

crap, there must be a lot of dust in the air tonight.

awesome


BH 50, WW 41
DS 23(Mine),SD 21,SS 19(Hers),DS 8 Ours, DGS 2 1/2
D=Day #1 5/04EA (Rugswept)
D-Day #2 3/10/12, TT til 3/13/12
Married 10yrs
“I have no love for a friend who loves in words alone.”
― Sophocles, Antigone

Posts: 2087 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: midwest
jjct
♂ Member
Member # 17484
Default  Posted: 6:57 AM, August 30th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Dear son,
I know the boxes they come in are all colory, and catch your eye.
I know when you open them and slit their shiny foil they come out all sparkly sprinkled and inviting.
I know they're sweet and warm on your tongue.

I just want you to know son, you can't live on pop tarts.
They will ruin you.
Today we're going to visit a dialysis center and hold someone's hand.
Tonight, we will read the stories of Bud Day, and Louie Zamperini. Real men, who held their vows fast through a hell I pray, neither of us will ever know.
"Fred", and Sullivan Ballou, Emily Dickinson and Helen Keller, with T.S. Eliot's "this and so much more" - will fill your eyes and ears and imagination. These strong, enduring things will grip your heart, till, in time, you won't so much as glance at the pop tart aisle.
I promise.
Signed,
Dad.


Posts: 6032 | Registered: Dec 2007 | From: texas
Tred
♂ Member
Member # 34086
Default  Posted: 7:09 AM, August 30th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

5454,

Nice letter. I might print that out and give it to my son.


Married: 16 years (14 @JFO)
D-Day: 11/09/11
"Ohhhhh...shut up Tred!" - NOT the official SI motto (DS)

Posts: 3306 | Registered: Dec 2011
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