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User Topic: Betrayed Men Part 13
Betrayed444
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Member # 38389
Default  Posted: 8:05 AM, September 9th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Your right WAL. For the most part I discovered the Menz thread and stayed with it mostly because of the things you wrote that caught my eye and encapsulated and explained what I couldn't. If it wasn't for that I would probably be far behind where I am now in my progress. Being emotionally involved in this situation is also like being in a fog. It takes an outside explanation to make sense of it all.
Your right WAL, everyday I have to help people in real life get a grasp of their situations. I have to come up with solutions on the fly and assist them with coming to terms with whatever their crisis is however when it's your own crisis it a whole other ball game. I'm glad your here bro just like all the others that contribute each day. I feel like we all have each others backs here. I don't know what others did before the Internet came around.

Posts: 494 | Registered: Feb 2013
StillGoing
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Member # 28571
Default  Posted: 8:14 AM, September 9th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I don't know what others did before the Internet came around.

Suffered or healed based on the locally available support or criticism. I think one of the reasons the How Do I Deal With This Shit is so difficult is because recovering from infidelity was a female demographic, much like wearing a wedding ring was a female demographic up until post WW2. Anymore most of us just assume wearing a wedding ring is the norm and look askance at a married guy who doesn't wear his ring (outside temporarily taking it off for shit like sanitizing bottles or exercising or shit that may damage it) and assume he is being an unethical dog. That social adjustment took awhile; I think we are the unfortunate pathfinders of the new awareness of a social paradigm.


“Fate is a fickle bitch who dotes on irony.”

Posts: 7114 | Registered: May 2010 | From: USA
Tred
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Member # 34086
Default  Posted: 8:22 AM, September 9th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

look askance at a married guy who doesn't wear his ring

I guess that's why I keep getting those askance looks . I wore mine faithfully for over 14 years. Only took it off because it was required when I played rugby (tape wasn't allowed - strict no jewelry rule). It was bent and I couldn't hardly get it off when I removed it, but there was no way it was staying on my hand. Everything it stood for had been violated, and it's mate was all over another man's cock (our rings originally a matched set). People can look askance at me all they want. I owe them nothing.


Married: 16 years (14 @JFO)
D-Day: 11/09/11
"Ohhhhh...shut up Tred!" - NOT the official SI motto (DS)

Posts: 3303 | Registered: Dec 2011
Ascendant
♂ Member
Member # 38303
Default  Posted: 9:04 AM, September 9th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

You have the right to demand she stop being a stupid, fatass, lazy cow. She's going to moo about it.

Funnily enough, it’s interesting to me (and always has been, even pre-A), that WW in general are allowed to bitch, moan, complain, and beg about you changing, manning up, etc, but if we make one hint about weight, BAM, throw the yellow flag. I mean, I don’t think any one of us has a hard time imagining this scenario unfolding:

WW: “So, I finally told my husband the other day that he needs to get his shit together, that I’m feeling like he doesn’t appreciate me, and I’m feeling like he doesn’t love me.”
WW Friend: “OMFG girl, good for you. Look at you, finally standing up for yourself, I’m so proud of you!!! Pass me that Appletini. So what’d he say?”
WW: “He told me he’d be more than happy to change, provided I lost 30 lbs., and toned up my ass.”
WW Friend: (Doing a hilarious spit-take) “OMFG!!! What an asshole! No wonder you’re so unhappy….[AP] never talks to you like that! Fuck that guy!”
WW: “Right? God, he makes me so happy…I swear, I married the wrong person.”

Rock the boat.
Make your demands.
Get what you need.
Don't settle for less.

Sweet, sweet distillation. These four lines are like the moonshine of BMenz advice. These four lines need to be etched into the mind from of every BM from day one. The tricky part is that in our society, a guy who does all of the above, even in the wake of an affair, is considered controlling and abusive, you know? I know we shouldn't really care about what others think about us, but we still have to live and interact in the world with everyone else.
I'd wither in that environment, because I'm not as good at organizing my thoughts on the fly verbally. I'd spend the whole time worrying about all the important shit that I was leaving out.

Seconded. I’m not socially awkward or anything, but this thread has helped me organize my thoughts and feelings on the topic into a coherent strain…so, for example, when I go into MC or IC, I’m not fumbling around trying to figure out what I’m trying to say as much as I generally would.
Also, this:
Your WW is an unreliable narrator.
is so, so important. I think a great many of us go into our marriages, relationships, whatever, assuming that if your SO is saying something is wrong with the relationship, then there probably is….I know for me at least it didn’t sink in until a little while before the A that, “Hey…maybe she has no fucking idea what she’s talking about on the relationship tip, because look at her history of family modeling and her personal relationship pattern.”, and I basically just started to tune her out when she started complaining about my failures as a husband, more or less.
On the topic of healing: I have a hard time living in the moment, so to speak. Now, it both hurts and helps, KWIM? I tend to dwell on things from the past, and be overly worried about consequences, but I also know that anything I’m feeling right now is temporary. I liken the wound created by my wife’s infidelity to having an injury with lots of shrapnel. We all got hit…me, her, and the marriage… we’re all injured. We can leave the shrapnel in there (blameshift, rugsweep) or we can dig all that nasty shit out now. If we leave it in there and start healing over it, there’s a chance that the shrapnel’s going to move towards the heart, slowly but surely. It’s gonna stay in there causing problems in the background. If we dig it all out by working through each of our individual issues, and doing all the requisite stuff we generally associate with R, then the marriage might die completely as a result of the surgery, while the two patients both end up healthy. Now, I’m going to heal one way or another on a long enough time frame…..but how clean of a healing process do I want it to be, you know?
Suffered or healed based on the locally available support or criticism.
My guess is that it was the former more than the latter. Even now, I think for a lot of guys there is a sense of personal shame associated with having a WW,I cannot imagine 30, 40, 50 years ago. I mean, if you're a WWII vet who got married and went off to war, saved the world, went through some serious shit, and then came home to find out that your wife was fucking some dude from down the street while you were capping Germans, I think you'd have a hard time admitting to anyone how powerless you were to stop her from doing it...if you even found out.


“Anyone who has a continuous smile on his face conceals a toughness that is almost frightening.”

Posts: 1607 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Illinois
Mr. Kite
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Member # 28840
Default  Posted: 9:36 AM, September 9th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

You're a stuffed shirt, a role in her drama, a mirror to reflect the image she wants to see.

On the other hand, I wonder if what she sees when she looks at me is a constant reminder of her lying, hiding, and slutty behavior. This triggers her guilt, shame, and fear and would explain her desire to avoid me at all costs.


Posts: 900 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Mid-Atlantic
slater13
♂ Member
Member # 39008
Default  Posted: 9:52 AM, September 9th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I may be lucky, or wrong, or both or neither; but in regards to the following;


Rock the boat.
Make your demands.
Get what you need.
Don't settle for less.

I seemed to have blindly stumbled into this plan. My fWW has been forced to change. I have made demands that are not always adhered to the way I would like, but mostly complied with. We have a whole new set of expectations regarding our sex life, her traveling and in general the shit I won't put up with. As I mentioned before, she is working on her story for me, but my guess is for a 3 year LTA that ended 18 months ago, there will be many, many gaps. I also don't expect her to fully cop the the most salacious of her acts. However, I know just the exercise of having to produce such a document has forced her to take a real objective look at what she did. I think that in itself is helpful. Honestly, I feel one of the most important factors in the success of a R is the quality and competence of the MC/ IC. A good MC that calls the wayward out and holds them accountable is an absolute must. Not allowing the twisted cognitive dissonance to continue is imperative.

FTR- not too fun watching kids soccer in 102 degree heat on 3 hours sleep and 1/2 bottle of rye in you.


The choices we make reveal the true nature of our character

Posts: 153 | Registered: Apr 2013
thinkingclear
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Member # 38884
Default  Posted: 9:58 AM, September 9th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Excellent stuff as usual WAL and thanks for the support from all. Later, it was one fine automobile (520hp, felt like you were riding on rails). Oh well, maybe next time I'll take a trip over to Germany to pick it up so I can take a trip on the Autobahn.

Your tangent summed up my situation perfectly and it also highlight my mistakes after D-day. I didn't do a very good job of ...

Rock the boat.
Make your demands.
Get what you need.
Don't settle for less.

At least not right away and she continued on in her fairly land dreaming of OM all the while thinking that she had me convinced otherwise. I was naive before D-day, but I've had a great read on my STBXWW for a long time. I knew I couldn't *settle for less* but I was so unsettled about the idea of breaking up our family for my own *selfish* needs. I'm convinced that if my WW could have gotten it together shortly after D-day that I'd still be in R. Even up to the latest discussion I was open enough that if she could convince me it was worth staying in the M I would have strongly considering it. She has made the decision to move on fairly easy. She has continued to make excuses.

I found a note that she had attached to an old love letter from me to her that I suspect she didn't think I would find for months. In summary she said that she was sorry for hurting me BUT I had to realize that she has been hurt too. I'm pretty sure in Apology 101 class we are told NEVER use the word BUT. I've always shown her empathy over this whole nightmare but in return I've been given very little. She also proclaimed that she isn't that person that hurt me anymore. Not sure who declared her *cured* or *changed*. It has NOT come from IC, reading, discussing or introspection so my assumption is that being a dry adulterer to her is *changed*. She has wasted 19 months of a second chance and still doesn't really understand why we are finding ourselves talking more to attorneys than to each other.

I share only to offer up my experiences and thoughts and not to encourage others to follow a similar path. I would have preferred to stay married, but it wasn't in the cards for me. I have benefited greatly by the posts in this thread. It took me a long time to finally stand up and make my demands. Better late than never I guess. I'm sure I would have never done it if it weren't for the great men here.

Life will continue to be a little rocky as we try to settle into new routines. My boys have been doing well so far and it will be a breath of fresh air this weekend when the STBXWW moves out. I've been quite sad. It isn't what I wanted. It will include enormous changes for all involved. BUT I also feel refreshed and ready to tackle these challenges and it is a strength that I just didn't poses 19 months ago.

jjct, my calender is opening up a little so let us know if there is going to be a GTG.


BS - Me
WW - Her
10 month EA/PA

Posts: 211 | Registered: Apr 2013
StillGoing
♂ Member
Member # 28571
Default  Posted: 10:41 AM, September 9th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I took mine off for several months after dday as well, Tred. If I actually got any of those looks I was too pissed off and consumed with WTF GOES ON to notice.


“Fate is a fickle bitch who dotes on irony.”

Posts: 7114 | Registered: May 2010 | From: USA
64fleet
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Member # 18710
Default  Posted: 11:59 AM, September 9th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

People can look askance at me all they want. I owe them nothing.

x2-I've not had one person ask in the nearly 6 yrs I haven't worn it. No dent or tan line left, like i never wore one. I remember the preacher saying my ring stood for her vows, and her ring stood for mine. Broken vows= no ring.

[This message edited by 64fleet at 12:00 PM, September 9th (Monday)]


time wounds all heels

Posts: 5359 | Registered: Mar 2008 | From: deliverance land
kg201
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Member # 40173
Default  Posted: 12:05 PM, September 9th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I haven't worn my ring in about 3 years since the first time she asked me to leave because of an argument. It happens to be the same time that she started her affair, and I believe she took her ring off then.

After dday I asked her to take the ring her AP had given her off out of some final respect for me untIl we made decisions about what we were going to do. To mess with my mind she put her band and engagement ring back on whenI drove her and the kids to a vacation spot. On her return it was back off. I am assuming she is wearing jackoff's ring now that we are separated and heading for D.


Me: BH, 39
Her: WW, 40
Together 18 years, married 15+
LTA 3.5 years, ongoing
Dday: 7/28/13
Divorcing, 3 children
---------------------------------
"There can be no friendship without confidence, and no confidence without integrity." -S

Posts: 382 | Registered: Aug 2013
MoreWould
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Member # 37982
Default  Posted: 12:26 PM, September 9th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

BMenz moves pretty fast sometimes, I'm looping back a page or two to pick up on a idea that keeps looping too.

I don't know what others did before the Internet came around.

Our "season of the A's" was decades ago. Didnt' have the internet, or SI, or WAL and at the time, the local IC/MC's were so remarkably FOS on the subject as to be worse than useless. So we made it up on the fly, and not very damn well, but we did R, and we're still married, and happy we are.

Still, in hindsight, I tolerated a lot of shit that I would advise people today not to, and I paid the price, including an RA. It took me at least 10 years to heal enough (not the usual SI 3-5 year guideline) to trust W enough to have kids with her. A's behind us, happy marriage, the "perfect couple".

Then, it all came crashing down when coworkers' A triggered PTSD attacks and flashbacks that put me right back to DDay with an E-ticket ride coupon in my sweaty fist. Thank God the ride was faster this time, because it was very bit as rough as the first time around, right down to the cold sweats, heart palpitations and dry heaves.

So when a buddy comes on here and asks how much info his WW should give up, my answer is always, "As much as you can tolerate, and not one bit less." This can be tough to absorb close to DDay, but you would be shocked at how much damage unanswered questions can do rolling around in your subconscious for 30 years. Trust me brothers, don't go there. If it's hard now, it's worse later.

My W's A really rocked my world, because I thought I was special. Bad shit didn't happen to me, especially shit I had control over. I was faithful, loving, attentive, supportive, attractive, a good lover and every damned thing an H is supposed to be. Didn't stop my WW from screwing a total loser at work. What I know now is that A's are common, the vast majority of M's encounter them, and we shouldn't be so damned surprised when they do. The "this shouldn't be happening" thought paralyzed me for a long time. Shouldn't have. Don't let it paralyze you, get to work.

The most succinct piece of wisdom on What To Do in the history of the world appeared right here in BMenz over the weekend. Every newborn should have it tattooed on their wrist so they can turn to it later. I would pay a lot to mail these four lines back into the past so I could read it on DDay +1.

Rock the boat.
Make your demands.
Get what you need.
Don't settle for less.

Word. Golden. Word.



Me BH/WH, 63
Her WW/BW, 62
Her DDay Dec 1976 OMW at the door
My DDay, ~ 2years later, confessed ONS the next day
R via "Sweeping under the rug"
Still married, 40 yrs, mostly OK
2 kids, 24 & 20

Posts: 347 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Colorado
RyeBread
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Member # 37437
Default  Posted: 12:30 PM, September 9th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I kept my ring on even after learning of the A. I only took it off once I decided I wanted a D about 6 months later. WW took her's off then too. It was a tough thing to do.


Let him that would move the world first move himself. - Socrates

Posts: 957 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: Midwest
MoreWould
♂ Member
Member # 37982
Default  Posted: 12:52 PM, September 9th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Rings.

At first, I continued to wear mine because I still loved my WW, and was determined not to let her get away over stupid fucking POSER.

Later, when she was pushing me to have "an A of my own" so I would understand (and I found out later, so she could put a stop to my questions about hers) I discovered that single women don't like wedding rings. So I took it off for a few years, but didn't like the attention I was getting. OK, validation, check. I'm still hot. Check. Moving on.

I did get mixed up with a married woman who didn't care if I was wearing a ring or not, not my best move.

Years later we went out together and bought beautiful new rings together. We both wear them to this day.


Me BH/WH, 63
Her WW/BW, 62
Her DDay Dec 1976 OMW at the door
My DDay, ~ 2years later, confessed ONS the next day
R via "Sweeping under the rug"
Still married, 40 yrs, mostly OK
2 kids, 24 & 20

Posts: 347 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Colorado
thinkingclear
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Member # 38884
Default  Posted: 1:05 PM, September 9th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I wore my ring all the way up to last weekend. I finally stopped wearing it when my STBXX found it laying next to the sink (which is always where I would keep it while working out) and put it into the original box that she had found as she was clearing out all her stuff from our bedroom/bathroom. She is the last person to touch it. I thought it was fitting.

It has only been a week, but I kind of miss it. It feels strange not having one on.

[This message edited by thinkingclear at 1:07 PM, September 9th (Monday)]


BS - Me
WW - Her
10 month EA/PA

Posts: 211 | Registered: Apr 2013
StillGoing
♂ Member
Member # 28571
Default  Posted: 1:12 PM, September 9th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

So I took it off for a few years, but didn't like the attention I was getting. OK, validation, check. I'm still hot. Check. Moving on.

I think that's what I was getting at. Not men who don't wear rings for a reason, but men who don't wear a ring as a means of misinformation. Not saying you did that, MW - the quote is to demonstrate the validation and attention a wedding ring tends to head off in most circumstances. I don't think any guy here took his ring off in order to go out and chat with women.


“Fate is a fickle bitch who dotes on irony.”

Posts: 7114 | Registered: May 2010 | From: USA
aesir
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Member # 17210
Default  Posted: 1:31 PM, September 9th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

It took me at least 10 years to heal enough (not the usual SI 3-5 year guideline) to trust W enough to have kids with her.

If I could blow up the font size on this one I would. Important take away point that can not be understated is that it is not the time that heals, it is what you do with the time. The 3-5 years guideline is based on people not inflicting further injury, just processing what you know about. It seems to work for those who D because there are no new injuries being inflicted, if you try to R, there will be times that are not ideal, or times that are almost as bad as the initial discovery. I suspect that it is possible to heal in under 3 years if everything is handled just right, but I doubt that anyone could be "on" all the time like that required, and if they could then they probably have enough personal discipline to not have an A regardless of temptation.


Your mileage may vary... in accordance with the prophecy.

Do not back up. Severe tire damage.


Posts: 14924 | Registered: Nov 2007 | From: Winnipeg
RyeBread
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Member # 37437
Default  Posted: 1:47 PM, September 9th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

- the quote is to demonstrate the validation and attention a wedding ring tends to head off in most circumstances.

Ironically I got more "attention" when I wore mine. I guess married guys are "safer" in my neck of the woods...that or women are more whorish. Haven't figured that one out yet. I'm trying not to use my STBXWW as a measure of that but it's hard not to.


Let him that would move the world first move himself. - Socrates

Posts: 957 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: Midwest
jjct
♂ Member
Member # 17484
Default  Posted: 1:48 PM, September 9th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I took off my suffering.

Posts: 6019 | Registered: Dec 2007 | From: texas
StillGoing
♂ Member
Member # 28571
Default  Posted: 1:50 PM, September 9th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Interesting RB. Around here I can actually see eyes flick to the ring hand if I pay attention when people interact.

Eh, fuck it. Scrap that whole thing.


“Fate is a fickle bitch who dotes on irony.”

Posts: 7114 | Registered: May 2010 | From: USA
MoreWould
♂ Member
Member # 37982
Default  Posted: 1:54 PM, September 9th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

SG

We are on the same page. We took the rings off because they were damaged, as was our M, not because I was looking for an A.

I did discover that guys not wearing rings get a lot more attention. Check. OTOH, WW reported that if anything, she got hit on LESS when she wasn't wearing it.

I've written about this before, has become one of my "life's studies". There is something remarkably messed up in our culture but I've come to the unfortunate conclusion that it is true.

The easiest women in the world to screw are married. There is a whole class of POSERS who have got that figured out and make a hobby of taking advantage of it. I can't begin to list how many kinds of wrong that is, on all sides, but I've seen way to much of it not to believe.

Back to where I started. I wanted a new wedding ring for a lot of reasons, but stopping the implied "false advertizing" was one of them.

[This message edited by MoreWould at 2:00 PM, September 9th (Monday)]


Me BH/WH, 63
Her WW/BW, 62
Her DDay Dec 1976 OMW at the door
My DDay, ~ 2years later, confessed ONS the next day
R via "Sweeping under the rug"
Still married, 40 yrs, mostly OK
2 kids, 24 & 20

Posts: 347 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Colorado
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