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User Topic: Betrayed Men Part 13
damaged71
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Default  Posted: 4:37 PM, September 12th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage


So I see the links I posted weren't a hit....

To be honest all I have been reading was the Dalrock stuff. The other link was the best example (Fast food argument) of the little arguments that can go wrong.

I think that the word "Game" as it relates to the married setting is invalid. I think it comes from the fact it was used in recognizing behaviors from guys that were pick up artists.

The fact that the girl you were picking up becomes your wife doesn't immediately change her entire personality.

She will still give you "shit tests" whether you believe it or not. After reading some of this stuff it becomes obvious. She might not know she is doing it but she is.

When I met my wife I was what you would call the Alpha male. I was a paratrooper that I did what I wanted and didn't much care what anyone thought. I smoked, drank and everything that went along with it.

After getting together with me, my wife expressed her displeasure with all of those things. I quit them all. I sold my harley, quit smoking, drinking, cussing and anything else. I literally became everything she asked for. I felt it was my duty as a husband to be the best husband I could be. That duty included spending 20 years to put us in the position to have the life she always dreamed of.

I'll give you folks 1 guess what habits the guy that she cheated with had....

I was shocked, but I shouldn't have been. Maybe this is the mythical "why" I am searching for. Maybe there is nothing more.

I am not saying that my wife is a lower level being for falling for that. I don't think she was "gamed". I'm not sure what I think...

I can say this, the Dalrock blog talks about being the head of the family as the husband.There's nothing wrong with that in my eyes. Turns out my wife likes for me to decide where to eat out. I forgot that. If you ask her she would tell you she didn't realize it. It doesn't mean that I want to manipulate or devalue her. I think the fact that I am here discussing this proves the value I put on her and this.

To wholesale discount the entire thought process because of the moniker that is attached to it might be premature. I have read many times here that "He who cares the least is the most powerful". How is that not the "Alpha" position in the relationship?

I want a partner and and equal and the same thing everyone else does.

I take that back.... I am the man. I am the only man in the relationship. I want stimulating conversation on an intellectual level but I don't want an equal.

Again let me restate as a husband I have a sacred obligation to protect, honor and so on. I have come through with flying colors for decades in that respect.

After all that I have put up with I want the marriage that I wanted 20 years ago. I was in charge then and I will be for the rest of my life. If she doesn't like it she can walk.


I didn't know there was this much emotional pain in the universe!
Me 42
Her 44
D-day 5.18.12
Currently in R

Posts: 305 | Registered: Jul 2012 | From: damaged71
Ascendant
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Default  Posted: 4:41 PM, September 12th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Having a hard time picturing why Lydia would need to die if he bought the vacuum cleaner. She isn't likely on his revenge list, and it's no longer an issue for rat patrol.
Agreed, unless Lydia does something fantastically wicked soon. She seemed pretty damned dangerous in that scene with Todd. Maybe she goes after the White family if Walt gets captured and escapes, or if he refuses to cook? But yeah, outside of being Walt's connect with Eastern Europe, I can't recall anything crazy happening betwixt them.

All I know is that the next episode better open with the lines, "Wow...both shot over 50 times, it's amazing they kept shooting back as long as they did." Not quite as bad as Poochy's, "I Have to go now. My planet needs me.", but there's no way they both live past the end of next episode, right? Right?!? I think Hank lives long enough to give a great "Fuck You, Walt" soliloquy, though. Gomie's toast.

Not enough car chases and hostage scenes.
....or maybe we're doing it all wrong....
FP, you may wanna welcome our newest member AlphaMaleDudeBro!

Welcome brother

Son of a....why do *I* feel trolled?


“Anyone who has a continuous smile on his face conceals a toughness that is almost frightening.”

Posts: 1618 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Illinois
Ascendant
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Default  Posted: 4:55 PM, September 12th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I guess the issue for me on the Dalrock stuff is that instead of saying to his wife, "Hey, you're an adult, so make your own decision" it seemed as though he decided that his poor wife's confused brain was unable to overcome the condition known as 'woman' and so he made the decision for her, and then ridiculed her afterward.

I don't know about you, but that's not anyone that I want to be in a relationship with.

I don't want to expend time and energy trying to know my spouse better than they know themselves so that they feel all 'gina tingly', I think they called it, and taken care of. It's not my job to give her the warm and fuzzies, the butterflies, the *tinglies*, the daily news, or the weather. She is an adult as capable of I am of making those things happen for herself.

ETA:
I also think his example works for you because he preaches the stereotypical 'Alpha' idea, and by your own admittance that's what you were when you met your wife, before you changed for her, and that's what your wife's AP was, I assume.

Let's take me, though. When I met my wife I was an ambitious loser who had (white dude) cornrows, wore mostly Ecko and GUnit type clothing, and spent the majority of my time playing Kingdom Hearts 2. I grew out of that stuff...somewhat organically, somewhat at my wife's prodding. OM? Dresses in hiphop clothing, spends all day playing video games and smoking weed/drinking beer, and spends the rest of his time whining. I should know, we used to be good friends. I was never the stereotypical 'Alpha', and I'd never want to be. I was happy with who I was then, I'm happy now. I wouldn't go back to being that way even though for some reason my wife seems to like that. (I have my theories on why that is, but it would take too long to explain here, sufficed to say that it has to do with control and low expectations)

[This message edited by FacePunched at 5:04 PM, September 12th (Thursday)]


“Anyone who has a continuous smile on his face conceals a toughness that is almost frightening.”

Posts: 1618 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Illinois
RyeBread
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Default  Posted: 5:12 PM, September 12th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

damaged71,

Hope this doesn't come off too harsh but I see a problem here. Sounds like you gave up all the things you were or liked because your wife wanted you to. I did that very thing myself. I jumped through endless hoops for my STBXWW. I tried to be everything to her and lost myself in the process. If only I could get it right then we'd be happy right? Wrong!

Sounds like to her, you needed to give up who you were to be with her. Some threads back we had a discussion about being a cardboard cutout guy of what our wives wanted instead of just being us and being accepted for that. I understand wanting to be there for her and do things that she enjoys, I really do. But I have to ask you, do you truly like making the decisions? Or is it what you think you HAVE to do? Is it something she can use later, "he is so controlling, I never get to decide anything!" WS's use the victim card for justification all the time. They do it covertly to where you are blindsided that they even feel that way. But they have been letting it build and build. And since their communication abilities are lacking you won't know it until its too late. If she isn't able to stand on her own and make decisions and communicate and negotiate with you I wonder if you will always be the bad guy.

If that works for you guys and you are fine with it then I'll shut up. I just worry that maybe you are buying into an ideal rather than buying into yourself.

[This message edited by RyeBread at 5:13 PM, September 12th (Thursday)]


Let him that would move the world first move himself. - Socrates

Posts: 957 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: Midwest
Ascendant
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Default  Posted: 5:34 PM, September 12th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

he is so controlling, I never get to decide anything!" WS's use the victim card for justification all the time. They do it covertly to where you are blindsided that they even feel that way. But they have been letting it build and build. And since their communication abilities are lacking you won't know it until its too late. If she isn't able to stand on her own and make decisions and communicate and negotiate with you I wonder if you will always be the bad guy.
This is really what I'd be worried about. This time, your wife sought out an alpha because supposedly that's what she wants. So, you become an alpha. The next (hypothetical) time, she cheats with some lame amateur love poet who acts as a surrogate BFF because he 'totally gets her' and 'just listens to her'. The goalpost moves. Unless she learns who she really is, and what she really wants out of life and can communicate it to you, she's not a safe partner.
If that works for you guys and you are fine with it then I'll shut up. I just worry that maybe you are buying into an ideal rather than buying into yourself.
Same here. It's only wrong if it doesn't work for you. If you want to be the guy that you used to be before you changed, that's awesome, provided that's who you want to really be.


“Anyone who has a continuous smile on his face conceals a toughness that is almost frightening.”

Posts: 1618 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Illinois
MC_Jack
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Default  Posted: 6:18 PM, September 12th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

your wife sought out an alpha because supposedly that's what she wants

^^ the issue of attraction. we kinda talked about this third rail in BM12. I think someone above referred to this as the workings of the primitive psyche, an old buried program.

I can kind of imagine how screwed up it must be to be a WW who felt this 'attraction' then, when everything blows up, sees the OM as a worthless user and wonders, 'where's the attraction?'. Feeling like you are not in control of your own self - being a Cylon...but not knowing it.

[This message edited by MC_Jack at 7:07 PM, September 12th (Thursday)]


I am not a marriage counselor. I chose "MC Jack" in the spirit of a handle like "MC Hammer" or Young MC"...there is a lot of 'rapping' here, no? At the time I did not know what MC stood for on this site. Duh.

Posts: 792 | Registered: Mar 2012 | From: West Coast of Hopa-hopa-land
StillGoing
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Default  Posted: 7:32 PM, September 12th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Maybe so SG, but best to avoid any food stuffed in bread references for a while.

I don't get it, what did I miss?


“Fate is a fickle bitch who dotes on irony.”

Posts: 7119 | Registered: May 2010 | From: USA
StillGoing
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Default  Posted: 7:41 PM, September 12th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

To wholesale discount the entire thought process because of the moniker that is attached to it might be premature. I have read many times here that "He who cares the least is the most powerful". How is that not the "Alpha" position in the relationship?

I want a partner and and equal and the same thing everyone else does.

I take that back.... I am the man. I am the only man in the relationship. I want stimulating conversation on an intellectual level but I don't want an equal.

Again let me restate as a husband I have a sacred obligation to protect, honor and so on. I have come through with flying colors for decades in that respect.

Sure, if that works for you great, but not everybody wants that. I'm an atheist and that stuff as based on a religious ideology has absolutely zero meaning to me.

The reason he who cares least is the most powerful is because there is no power to be exerted over him. This is ideal when both partners have no care in regards to the power struggle. That's an equilibrium. If you are aiming to care the least to be the most powerful in your relationship as some sort of patriarchal dominance, then you're just going to lose that one every time.

I want an equal, myself. I don't want her to be a man - an equal doesn't mean a mirror. An equal as two humans. People. Mutual respect, honor and love. Anything less than equal is, well, inequality.

Also, still puzzling over the stuffed bread thing.


eta:

NM, and thank you for the explanation. g_r and I thought it was a reference to a Breaking Bad episode we hadn't seen yet but I grok.

Also, I need to relay the Waxed Cucumber tale now. I was just in there cooking bacon at 10:30 PM because cooking bacon is fucking normal at any time, and also she forgot she said she'd make some kind of salad for her office tomorrow. Which apparently has bacon in it. I am cool with that. Anyway, she is washing off the cucumber intended for the salad and laughingly asks "Why is this waxed?" and I recall aloud that earlier this morning when I was at the grocery - I hit it around 9 before I start work, which is awkward because that's when all the new mamas are out there and I feel about as out of place as one of those ladies might feel in the far back of a dimly lit Games Workshop at 4 PM on a Saturday, but anyway - I am in there in front of the giant stack of cucumbers staring at my list and I thought I must've looked extra weird because at least 5 women turned into the aisle and then immediately spun around and went over to wherever instead. g_r said "Nooooo" and lol'd, and I remembered this commercial:

http://youtu.be/a278UeEgSPk

I'm sure I was stank or something but it's terribly amusing to think otherwise.

[This message edited by StillGoing at 9:43 PM, September 12th (Thursday)]


“Fate is a fickle bitch who dotes on irony.”

Posts: 7119 | Registered: May 2010 | From: USA
Mr. Kite
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Default  Posted: 10:06 PM, September 12th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Mr K, lotta pain and torture though.

That's a fact.

Having a hard time picturing why Lydia would need to die if he bought the vacuum cleaner. She isn't likely on his revenge list, and it's no longer an issue for rat patrol.

But yeah, outside of being Walt's connect with Eastern Europe, I can't recall anything crazy happening betwixt them.

In the episode 'Madrigal'(yeah, I had to look it up) Walt brings the ricin to a meeting with her as if he intends to poison her but then changes his mind.
That's most likely what connected her to the ricin in my mind. I need to get a life.


Posts: 900 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Mid-Atlantic
Mr. Kite
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Default  Posted: 10:29 PM, September 12th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I literally became everything she asked for. I felt it was my duty as a husband to be the best husband I could be.

I'll give you folks 1 guess what habits the guy that she cheated with had....

I've known my wife for over 30 years and have come to the conclusion that there are people like her who hate themselves so much that they will subconsciously destroy any chance of happiness because they feel they don't deserve it.

When the 'blue bird of happiness' flies in through her window, she gets the shotgun out. This has held true not only in our marriage but also in other facets of her life. Whenever success comes knocking, she will find a way to sabotage it.

Being an adulteress and a pathological liar has of course added to her hatred of herself and continued the destructive spiral.

It wouldn't have mattered what I had done, she would have found a reason to self-destruct. So the course of action I have taken over the last few years is to take care of myself and let her go in whatever direction she chooses lest she pull me down with her.

I've loved this woman from the moment I first saw her and still do. But there's some crazy I'm not qualified or able to fix.


Posts: 900 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Mid-Atlantic
5454real
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Default  Posted: 11:04 PM, September 12th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

But there's some crazy I'm not qualified or able to fix.

Is she, or is she willing to get the help needed to fix it? Is it worth the wait?

Strength bro, tough question that takes time to answer.


BH 50, WW 41
DS 23(Mine),SD 21,SS 19(Hers),DS 8 Ours, DGS 2 1/2
D=Day #1 5/04EA (Rugswept)
D-Day #2 3/10/12, TT til 3/13/12
Married 10yrs
“I have no love for a friend who loves in words alone.”
― Sophocles, Antigone

Posts: 2087 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: midwest
nuance
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Default  Posted: 11:17 PM, September 12th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Seriously guys I'm in S1E6. Spoiler alert! My W doesn't want to watch it so we compromise and we alternate it with some of her shows.

Anyway, MoreWould:

"I felt so bad for him. His W was unfaithful."

Really WTF? Did you ask her about that?


Dday May 2000. R'ed.
People suck.

Posts: 1160 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: California
Ascendant
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Default  Posted: 7:17 AM, September 13th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Sorry. I was trying to avoid spoilerish stuff, but got lost along the way.


“Anyone who has a continuous smile on his face conceals a toughness that is almost frightening.”

Posts: 1618 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Illinois
thinkingclear
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Default  Posted: 7:37 AM, September 13th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I step away for a minute and you guys are almost to BM14. What can I say, I've had my hands full of dealing with crazy. My household is in chaos right now. Boxes everywhere and PA STBXX stomping around and stressing out the kids. I just want it over. She moves out today and tomorrow so it won't be long.

She was served divorce petition papers this week and has been a real peach to be around, despite my fig leaf offering and CLS sacrifice. We finally had a discussion last night about our plans and it turned sour quickly. She told me that all communication about our 4 year old should occur through e-mail at her attorney's request. I pressed for more and we got into a discussion that cemented my conclusions about her. She told me that I was being ridiculous asking for a D now. She had *changed* and that she has *been trying* and that should just be good enough to stay for the kids. The D and the affects it will have on the kids are going to be all *my fault* according to her. She refuses to acknowledge that the A and 18 months of false R have anything to do with my decision to D. Maddening. I told her that if she felt better about herself by blaming me she should feel free. I could care less what she feels about me. In fact, she has repeatedly shown me she doesn't care about me over the last several years. She told me that her A was just an *excuse* that I was using for the D and that I *had* to have someone else waiting for me. I told her that again, if she wants to blame me so that she doesn't have to accept her own faults that's fine with me. I told her that she can use *excuses* but my decisions are being based on facts and observations of her efforts and actions over the last 2 years.

I pressed this fruitless discussion only because of her stance on our little boy. She is trying to justify pushing for full custody because it's *what is best* for him. She said he needs time to settle into his new place. I told her that there is no way was I accepting that. His place is here if anywhere. His life is being torn apart because of her selfish choices, not mine. I only want joint custody and half time with him, but if she wanted to put this decision to a judge then bring it on. She will be working 8-5 in the real world soon and will be in no better position to provide for him than I. I told her that what is *best for him* is for the two of us to amicably parent him equally, but if she is unwilling or incapable of doing so I will pursue every legal option available.

I walked away and went to bed to find her hovering over me a few hours later wanting to give me a hug. She told me that even after we are D, if I ever want to remarry that she would be willing. It kind of freaked me out a bit. I need to make sure the pointy things and the things that go boom are put up high and out of reach.

The one saving grace is that if I had any doubts that I was making the correct decision they have all but been eliminated.

ETA - At the end of the discussion I told her that even up until now she has had the ability to influence my decision. She snapped back "How could I? I'm not going to beg someone to stay married to me that doesn't want to!" My response was "Exactly!"

[This message edited by thinkingclear at 9:14 AM, September 13th (Friday)]


BS - Me
WW - Her
10 month EA/PA

Posts: 211 | Registered: Apr 2013
Later
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Default  Posted: 8:51 AM, September 13th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

TC, as I was reading your post I was thinking what you expressed in your last paragraph, IMO, her attitude demonstrates that she has made no progress since dday and has only been displaying what she thinks she needs to for self preservation.

Ironically, if she had read the script earlier she may have pulled it off. (Personally, I tend to think the A itself was a deal breaker but I don't think you, I or anyone else will ever know for sure).

I really hate she is using the child to continue the conflict. Perhaps she will eventually come to grips with the fact the M is over and realize that this tactic is only going to harm the child.

It's too bad that she can not see that even though the marriage is ending you have still shown her an incredible amount of grace.

You are a strong man.


Posts: 384 | Registered: May 2013
damaged71
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Default  Posted: 10:02 AM, September 13th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage


Stillgoing... you wrote this.

Sure, if that works for you great, but not everybody wants that. I'm an atheist and that stuff as based on a religious ideology has absolutely zero meaning to me.

It's not a religious structure... What I am talking about is the social structure for all of human history up until 1940. For all of human history women were not in charge in the marriage/relationship or most social situations. Men had to be in charge so the family unit could stay alive. Only with the emergence of women's lib/feminism did that idea even come to be challenged.

If you agree the last paragraph is true, than how can you imagine that every woman in the world likes the new structure? I believe that there are plenty of women that would be perfectly happy in a relationship where they were perceived as being "taken care of". Some women like having a door opened for them. As a matter of fact most women do. That social construct still has a place for people. This brings up a conversation I had on a plane with two female recent college grads. They both were lamenting the new generation of men. These two girls wanted exactly what I speak of and were vocal about it. They had no qualms about wanting to be "taken care of" so to speak.

I work with a bunch of female engineers. One is particularly truthful. She spoke of a discussion she had with her college mates upon graduation. She said she asked "what do you want now"? She said the responses were "good job" and so on. She said she called bullshit. She said "admit it. You want to get married and pregnant and to be someones wife". She said they all agreed.

What I am saying is that even if you don't agree or realize it your wife/mate is constantly qualifying you to see if you are suitable. Evolution/Nature demands it. She might not know it but she is.


BTW where are all of these decisive women you all speak of? To be completely honest I have only met a handful in my lifetime. Want to see what I am talking about, watch 4 of them agree where to go to dinner.


I didn't know there was this much emotional pain in the universe!
Me 42
Her 44
D-day 5.18.12
Currently in R

Posts: 305 | Registered: Jul 2012 | From: damaged71
Mr. Kite
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Default  Posted: 10:25 AM, September 13th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Is she, or is she willing to get the help needed to fix it? Is it worth the wait?

Strength bro, tough question that takes time to answer.

We've been through MC, and she's been through much IC, Prozac and other meds without any success. She's given up.

Last night she got home after a ten day trip to Ireland. No greeting, no hug, just blathering on about her adventures. The lights are on but there's no one home, at least not for me.

Why stick around? After 28 years of M I'm not about to lose half my stuff. It's my fault entirely for choosing money and possessions over sanity and integrity. But that could all change tonight or tomorrow. Everyone has a breaking point, I just haven't reached mine yet.

Seriously guys I'm in S1E6. Spoiler alert!

Sorry about that. From now on any BB comments will be preceded by a "spoilers" alert.

I walked away and went to bed to find her hovering over me a few hours later wanting to give me a hug.

I envy the menz here who's WW's are willing to put in the work to help in the healing process, and I have great respect for those BS's who have the courage to say "enough's enough." All the best to you TC as you go through this painful process.

I sleep in the basement while WW sleeps in the bedroom upstairs. I've kept my door locked at night for many years despite accusations of paranoia. When someone's proven to me that they're irrational and unstable, I treat them accordingly.


Posts: 900 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Mid-Atlantic
RyeBread
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Default  Posted: 10:30 AM, September 13th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

You make a valid point damaged71.

What it is for me is that I have been down the road of being the gentleman who takes care of everything and got burned. I realize now that for me I appreciate a woman who is self reliant, confident, kind, secure in who she is, and who respects and accepts me for who I am. She doesn't want to change me into a relationship puppet or a means to an end so she can feel good about her lot in life. I need much more authentic and honest woman than what I have had in the past. All the "a man should be X,Y, and Z" stuff is an ideal that someone fed a girl. We are who we are. Acceptance is everything. The rest falls into place after that...at least that's where I am at in my lifes journey.

Do what you feel is right for your situation. If you are happy and content then you are doing it right for you. I hope that's what you are able to find, I really do.


Let him that would move the world first move himself. - Socrates

Posts: 957 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: Midwest
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Default  Posted: 10:54 AM, September 13th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Religious aspect aside (due to SI TOS), I think that you're confusing "the way it has been" with "the way it should be". The world, and relationships, were not some idealized utopia just because men were "in charge" of the household back then. I will always refuse to demonize any movement that attempted to get equal social standing and whatnot for a segment of the population. I'd argue that the issue is not that we as a society tell women that they are equal to men (which, clearly, they are), but that we have yet to kill the damsel-in-distress trope completely along the way. Our young women get fed conflicting messages growing up.


“Anyone who has a continuous smile on his face conceals a toughness that is almost frightening.”

Posts: 1618 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Illinois
StillGoing
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Default  Posted: 11:07 AM, September 13th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

It's not a religious structure... What I am talking about is the social structure for all of human history up until 1940. For all of human history women were not in charge in the marriage/relationship or most social situations. Men had to be in charge so the family unit could stay alive. Only with the emergence of women's lib/feminism did that idea even come to be challenged.

Many problems here.

First and foremost is that it was not that structure for all of human history but a certain period. Additionally blaming womens lib/feminism for some sort of erosion of family values is horse shit because the focus of that was to provide women equal rights as human beings rather than property or inferior beings incapable of individual thought.

The family unit was not structured in that way as a survival unit for the bulk of human history, nor was it maintained as such for survival purposes. There are many, many reasons and influences on for the Man Is In Charge Of Household but they diverge very early from Survival and go off into Religious. The reason I responded as I did was your inclusion of the phrase "sacred duty."

If you agree the last paragraph is true, than how can you imagine that every woman in the world likes the new structure? I believe that there are plenty of women that would be perfectly happy in a relationship where they were perceived as being "taken care of". Some women like having a door opened for them. As a matter of fact most women do. That social construct still has a place for people. This brings up a conversation I had on a plane with two female recent college grads. They both were lamenting the new generation of men. These two girls wanted exactly what I speak of and were vocal about it. They had no qualms about wanting to be "taken care of" so to speak.

Well good for them. If that works for them then they have that option available to them. The idea that they can't be subservient little hausfraus because there are other women out there who want things like equal pay for doing the same job their male counterparts do is insulting to everyone involved. If they want to lament the fact that there are fewer men out there willing to take on an additional child in their home that's their choice and they have a right to their opinions and desires, but that doesn't invalidate the opinions or desires of others.

Honestly I hope my boys stay the fuck away from those kinds of girls since they seem to be the ones hell bent on blaming the men in their lives for all the unhappiness that comes their way.

eta here again:

I think you are confusing courtesy and manners for being taken care of. Holding the door for a lady is a thoughtful and courteous gesture while letting it slam in her face is a dick move. Holding a door is a world of difference from "being taken care of" as the two girls you spoke of stated it.

I work with a bunch of female engineers. One is particularly truthful. She spoke of a discussion she had with her college mates upon graduation. She said she asked "what do you want now"? She said the responses were "good job" and so on. She said she called bullshit. She said "admit it. You want to get married and pregnant and to be someones wife". She said they all agreed.

I am ignoring this as anecdotal because I can supply my own anecdotes and all it will do is lead to an argument that cannot be resolved.


What I am saying is that even if you don't agree or realize it your wife/mate is constantly qualifying you to see if you are suitable. Evolution/Nature demands it. She might not know it but she is.

No, evolution/nature does not demand it and if she is qualifying me now then I am no longer aware of it, because I got sick and tired of that childish bullshit and told her I was ready to get a divorce if she kept playing the shift the blame kind of shit tests. Not in those words of course but after a long series of discussions.

I really don't give a shit if she tests me and I fail. If she chooses to operate in a disrespectful and deceptive way again then I am done with her. If ever I have to deal with any other partner it's the same. If some magical fairy comes down and shows me irrefutable proof that all women are this way then I will go to my own solution of whores and housekeepers, because any man that marries for sex and finances is batshit fucking insane.

eta:

BTW where are all of these decisive women you all speak of? To be completely honest I have only met a handful in my lifetime. Want to see what I am talking about, watch 4 of them agree where to go to dinner.

In light of the last few pages brother, you *really* do not want to go there.

[This message edited by StillGoing at 11:14 AM, September 13th (Friday)]


“Fate is a fickle bitch who dotes on irony.”

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