This was my situation. My wife said "I need X". I provided X. My wife said "I need Y". I provided it.
We spent 20 years of marriage doing that. Modern culture said she should be happy. Everything said she should be happy. Everything I had been told said she would be happy. Guess what, she wasn't happy and neither was I.
I have tried being the guy that "did" everything and that's a bad situation. You end up with someone that won't do for themselves. I assure you I don't want that.
What I am getting at is my wife doesn't know what she wants. We were told by modern culture that our relationship should be one way. We bought in and changed to fit the mold. Turns out it didn't work for us.
I want my wife to carry her slack but I also want to be the man in the marriage. Whether you like it or not....Someone is in charge. It's always that way.
Face, I am with you I want everyone to be equal and absolutely applaud it when it happens. That doesn't mean everyone wants it that way. Some folks are relieved for someone to take charge. Trying to fit some women in the "take charge" Box makes them unhappy and everyone else.
For years my wife was a SAHM. I make a fine living. That being said, I can't out-earn her capacity to spend. I am just not capable. The other day I told her she is going on a budget. She did all of the things you think she would do. She railed and balked and got mad and pouted. I told her "I have to do what's right for us, it's my responsibility not yours".
When she earns the money she is free to put me on a budget but until then she doesn't get an equal say. I have the larger financial picture and she doesn't. If she wants to put in the time to learn all the details, I'm down for 50/50 decisions. She doesn't want that.
But.... society tells her she needs equal say. Where do you draw the line?
Yeah she didn't know what she wanted at the time, but fuck, I don't know what I want a lot of times either. It's not because she's a woman, it's because she was being a selfish bitch about it just like these guys who do the same thing are selfish dicks.
Someone is in charge when someone takes charge, and the other agrees.
You give an example where you are treating your wife like a child because you say you are incapable of earning more than she can spend. You take on the responsibility to ensure she doesn't out spend. She 'pouts' and rails and balks.
So you are her daddy and she is your little girl. Maybe she likes that and it works for you guys, great. That doesn't work for me. I don't want to have to keep tabs on her responsibility and ensure she isn't applying for secret credit cards to buy collectors cabbage patch dolls or something. I want my wife to have an equal say, which requires an equal measure of responsibility, and if she is ultimately incapable of that then my line is this: so long and thanks for all the fish. I'm done and that's that.
Society tells us a lot of things but ultimately it is our own decision on how to operate.
Sorry, I forgot to include that I do not think she should receive equal merit and consideration if she is unwilling to accept the responsibility involved. Is she is happy to surrender that responsibility and give you control then that is a system many people are happy with and that they make work. It's definitely a relationship that can make people happy.
If she is being a whiny twat about it then you're going to be married to a whiny twat, not a traditionally submissive woman. The trade off for being taken care of there is a willing surrender of responsibility.
She still has to choose how to be married to you.
[This message edited by StillGoing at 11:48 AM, September 13th (Friday)]
As long as a woman is like that, at best you’re guessing at what she wants. You may hit it or be close enough most of the time, but when you don’t and she doesn’t know herself enough to tell you then it adds to the justification pile for her to go slobber on someone else’s knob. Once this level gets high enough, she can go back and think of all those times you didn’t do what she SAID she wanted (even though it WAS what she wanted, per your own argument) and she has total justification (in her head).
Using the engineer example again, someone who isn’t healthy would years down the road use the fact that she didn’t get that great career because she M’ed you and had your kids to show just how much she gave up for you as justification that ‘she deserved to be happy’ (even though per her own admission M and kids is really what she wanted).
It is a ‘game’ that you cannot win because you are trying to hit 2 very different targets.
What I am getting at is my wife doesn't know what she wants.
that would explain why she is so unhappy and why she turns to others to make her happy. She needs to figure those things out instead of putting you in a place to do that. It's called owning your shit..aka personal responsibility.
Some folks are relieved for someone to take charge. Trying to fit some women in the "take charge" Box makes them unhappy and everyone else.
Again, allowing others to take charge only enslaves you as a person, you loose your freedom. Is she really ok with that? Are you ok with that? Do you think you enable that by assuming she wants to be in the submissive role? Just asking.
I tried to do both. My compromise was to work long hours M-F and be home Sat and Sun. We had a schedule where she would get up very early to go to work and I would take care of the kids and go in later. She then would get off early and pick up the kids and handle them in the evenings. Because she would get up so early she would go to bed very early. So if I left work after a normal 10 hour day she would be asleep when I got home. So what I did was to work really late during the week so I would have time off at home when we were both there.
I knew she wanted me home during the week day evening but with going in late I just could not do it. So the compromise was the best way to go IMO.
OM was a guy at her work. A serial cheater who she knew was a serial cheater. As crazy as it sounds she considered him a friend and he began to give her advice on how to improve our M.
Ok. Stop laughing at that.
So things went the way they did.
Sometimes the best you can do is just not enough. Theres no way I could have prevented her LTA.
Very shortly after dday I had had a woman bitch at me about her marriage and ask for advice, I said "Talk to him and listen to what he says, try marriage counseling." That conversation ended fast. Until I came here I never would have realized that shit was the validation fishing so many of these affairs kick off with.
I know OM gave my wife advice on how to try and improve our marriage. "Not fucking me" apparently wasn't on the list though.
So there I was. Doing my level best to comply with what she was telling me she needed. Doing everything I could to satisfy her needs. And there they BOTH were undermining everything I was attempting.
OM whispering in her ear that I must not love her because I was not home. And that I was probably having an affair on her (definitely not true). And that he would treat her so much better if he were in my place.
We all know how that story goes.
I think others hit on it better. Your wife has to be honest with herself on what she wants. Part of that is you not providing it.
Also women have to be honest with themselves. Do they want what society says they should have or do they want an old school marriage.
I am an assertive guy. I help people make decisions all day and am often called for advice. I turned that power over in my marriage. It was a mistake. I lost myself because of it. I came across as asking instead of demanding the respect I deserve. I paid for it.
BTW the "alpha" my wife went after....
I contacted his wife. I said what are the chances you think he will leave. She started laughing. She said, "he can't support himself, I can't imagine where he would go".
On top of this...his wife offered a chance to get back at him. I said, no thanks. Not into that.
[This message edited by PowerGlo at 3:14 PM, September 13th (Friday)]
Everybody wants some sort of security, and in the past for women that usually meant getting married to a good man. Everybody wants to have nice things, and some leisure time to enjoy them. We also should want our partners to be happy, so we try to arrange a comfortable life for the family with nice things and some leisure time.
What people really don't like is being bored. How do you fill all that leisure time? Some people develop hobbies, some dedicate time to causes they care about, some make appointments for socialization (like my nightly coffee with friends), and some of us go online and try to help others with the same issues we faced.
Historically speaking, a wife being "taken care of" had a lot of responsibilities. Starting with child rearing in an age without contraception, such a burden that older children were often drafted into service just to keep up. The modern kitchen (and grocery stores) have freed up a lot of the time normally reserved for food preparation. Anyone ever watch their grandmother make bread you now buy for a couple of bucks a loaf? Now imagine adding in having to light the fire in the stove, or even keep a fire going all the time because matches were such a magical invention people called them lucifers. Washing dishes, even without an appliance requires miraculously less effort when one has indoor plumbing and running water as opposed to hauling water from the river. Don't even think of trying to do laundry with the old tub and washboard after heating the water on the stove.
So how does the "taken care of" woman spend her time now? Some take on additional responsibilities, some use the time these modern luxuries have provided to shop for more luxuries they can be resentful that they don't have, some watch the adventures of sOphrah to learn how dissatisfied with life they should be, while others alleviate the boredom by watching Desperate Housewives and envy the luxurious lifestyle of the women portrayed and ponder emulating what they can.
I think that to be at all content with life, people need to have some sort of responsibilities, either externally or internally imposed. I notice that the people who seem the most dissatisfied, or even angry, are not the ones who lack physical things, but those who lack any visible signs of responsibilities. These are the people most likely to act out in some way, whether it be having an affair, or showing up for a riot. If you are living a full life, you just don't have time for that shit.
Do not back up. Severe tire damage.
So today I find out that STBXWW is dating the AP that started her down her long slippery slope. The guy she met at her work and told her she needs to get out of her comfort zone. She must’ve been in contact with him all this time, even while we were in false R. I hope she is happy with the home wrecker. They should be perfect for each other. Two scumbags...
Yeah she's out of her comfort zone all right, and probably may never find it again. Sorry you have to go through this.
aesir - good read and right on point. Thanks!
WW always worked and kept busy so this was not an issue for her. But right before she put on her high heels, packed her nightie, and sashayed into the darkness of multiple A's, she did something unusual which I should have picked up on.
Here was someone who hated watching TV and then suddenly got interested in watching two soap operas. This was in the days of the VCR. I stupidly taped these shows for her each day, because she could never figure out how to do that, and then she would watch them at night. Lots of liars, cheats, dissatisfied housewives, and handsome men on those shows. Don't know if there was a connection but now I wonder.
[This message edited by PowerGlo at 3:13 PM, September 13th (Friday)]
The answer should be as much as you are willing to accept. That varies between individuals based on a lot of things. For most of the guys here I suspect the "how much" is near to the "fuck you lady I'm done" end of the "level of shit I'm taking" meter.
[This message edited by StillGoing at 2:56 PM, September 13th (Friday)]
As heartbreaking as it is, she just proved to you who she really is.
Stay strong my friend.
So dead on with what you wrote. Complacency and convenience can be a very poisonous combination. Sprinkle that with some free time and shit starts blowing up.
It didn't make an iota of difference. About the same amount as when I tried doing more around the house etc.
Even before the A I concluded that the problem was internal to her. She needed to have a change of heart, and nothing I did was going to do that for her.
Since dday, and a little before, she has done those things I was looking for before. All of a sudden she supposedly sees she was mistaken. I am worth having and the marriage is worth salvaging.
BTW, I don't know how much of this change of heart is simply an act because she now sees the ramifications of D. I don't know that it matters much, since if iit is genuine that just means she is perfectly capable of treating me like shit based on a "mistake."
What I learned from all of that is in future relationships I will be myself. If the woman is acting discontent I will sit down and try to get at the root of the problem.
If she identifies an issue I am not willing to resolve as she wants then I will move on.
If she can't identify the problem, or if the goal line keeps moving. I will sure as hell move on.
Few pages back... WWS! brilliant
Aesir, love those points. how's that thing go, Idle hands....
Also along the lines of the traditional family patriarchy and changing roles of women. When considering the A, don't think in the end it matters one way or another if a marriage follows the traditional path or not. By traditional I mean man makes the money and the decisions; female stays at home and accepts subservient role to male.
[Side note: Fuck I hate referring to any female as subservient in any aspect, even if its only because I'm not articulate enough to find the proper word. Its just plain archaiac, and wrong. There is nothing subservient about raising kids. You find me a single mother working and raising children, and I will show you a better person than most of the men I know. Her job is a much harder than the job I do everyday.]
Had WW ask once if I thought she still would have had an A if she was a SAHM instead of in the workplace. Broke it down like this for her:
I think she failed to realize something that men have long known. Being in a position of power and authority (which she has in her job) makes you more attractive to others. For poser she was a trophy to be obtained (fuck she hates that, knowing now that he really never did love her). So in that regard maybe it wouldn't have happened.
She was trying to work through the circumstances that lead up to it, trying to make sense of how she walked down that path. I can't fault her for that, even if she didn't see that blaming her faulty decision making on her being in the work place was just more blame shifting bullshit.
I told her though that in all honesty eventually it would have probably happened anyway, with another guy, at another time, in another way. No doubt her work allowed her opportunity, and a cover for the A. I mean she HAD to talk to him for work ...cough... bullshit ...cough. But as we can attest to here at SI, there are plenty of women and men for that matter outside of the work place that still find the means if they want to; to betray their partners. Instead of using her job as the cover, she would has used my job and the time I was away because of it as her cover.
But in the end he only provided what she was looking for in the first place, if not at work she would have found it somewhere else. The problem resides somewhere inside her, not inside her office
It was the fact that she deferred she own decision making to some dumbshit douchebag that got her into hot water to begin with. He told her what she deserved being the princess she is and what she needed to do to obtain it. She could get all her needs met if she kept me around to pay the bills and help raise the kids, and then would get at the admiration she needed from him if she would just suck some dick.
She was submissive to him. I know what you thinking...see that's exactly what she wants, and if I would just be that person she wouldn't have looked for it else where. Well guess what if that's what she wants.... Fuck Her!
I want a Bonnie to my Clyde. I want a partner, an equal, someone to share my life with. What I don't want is someone who can't experience life for themselves, I don't want a partner that has to view life through my own bug smeared goggles. If she needs someone to hold her hand through life, she needs to find someone else permantently, she knows this. I'm not that guy.
Plus she'll never gain my trust or respect back if I have to make decisions for her. She HAS to prove to me that she has learned from the bad ones and can make good descions. If she can't decide something superficial like BigMac vs Fish sandwich how can I ever trust that she can decide husband/family vs. diseasedick?
71, more specifically to what you've been saying I see the finance predicament your in. She wants equal say but none of the equal work or responsibility that comes with the money. That is a big-time problem. And until she puts in some work to understand and share in the responsibility I don't think you have much choice but take over.
Sonovabitch, that was anything but brief.
Back in a few with the weekend brew.....
[This message edited by DefiledRage at 4:18 PM, September 13th (Friday)]
Mister rabbit says, "A moment of realization is worth a thousand prayers."
I have often thought that the perfect revenge on WW and OM would be for them to be together and get married. WW would be the nasty bitch she was with me and possibly cheat on him. OM would certainly cheat on her. Yes. That would be their just deserts.