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I got into an argument with WS tonight. This is his birthday week, and I told him that I wanted to be included with anything his family did for his birthday. His mom planned a birthday dinner for last night, and his brother refused to go. She was still willing to go, but he decided not to do it since his brother wasn't going. He texted me today that he was going to his dad's house to get his birthday present, which is a trigger for me since that was his excuse during the A when he was with OW. We were keeping a puppy this weekend that I needed to return tonight, and I offered to meet him around 7PM or to go to his dad's house. He didn't seem thrilled about that, so I just returned the puppy on my own. I was driving home and feeling upset, and then got a text from him at 7:30 PM that he was getting dinner with his family. I texted him that I felt excluded from his family since he didn't invite me tonight, and that I was upset since I had made it clear that I wanted to be included for any birthday things. He replied and said that it wasn't for his birthday, and said that he was starting to get upset. My normal reaction before his recent confessions last week would have been to apologize, but I just completely lost my temper. I told him he was full of *hit, which is completely abnormal for me to talk like that. It led to an argument where he said that just because he lied in the past doesn't give me the right to call him a liar now. And the argument went on, until I said that he can either deal with the consequences of his actions and be understanding that I have the right to question his words, or get out of the relationship. He got upset that I gave him an "ultimatum," and said that he has to choose between me cussing him out or not being with me. And that's how the conversation ended.

I'm very upset. His dad's house is a trigger for me. And then holidays are also a trigger because he had sex with OW for the first time on Christmas day, and had told me that he was with his family. I wanted to be included for birthday things with his family. But he went without me. I can kinda see that maybe it wasn't a planned birthday celebration, so he didn't think of inviting me. But then when I brought it up, it really, really upset me that he tried to convince me it had nothing to do with his birthday since his earlier text had said that he was going there to get a birthday present. He said that they didn't get him anything, so it wasn't for his birthday. I just feel like he was lying, or trying to manipulate me.

After his recent bout of confessions last week, I just feel on the edge. He admitted last week that he had been reading my phone and creating fake profiles on a prior forum to manipulate me. And now it feels like he thinks I have no right to question his honesty, and it just appalls me. It was like talking to a brick wall though, where he couldn't understand my point of view no matter what I said. Yes, I lost my temper and cussed at him. But that's completely abnormal behavior for me, and he should know that.

It's his birthday week, and I feel guilty for doing this on his birthday week. I feel like I should be putting him first, and stuffing my emotions down until after his birthday. But I felt like I was going to explode if I didn't say something to him. And now we're not talking, and I don't know what to do to fix it.

You have nothing to feel guilty about. You did exactly the right thing. He knew what he was doing and did it anyway. He is deliberately pushing his boundaries with you and will continue until you stop them. It does not sound like there is any remorse in his behavior nor plans to be any.

While you gave him an ultimatium, you may need to up the anti....what do you really want and what will you really make as your ultimatium? What is your tolerance point? Until you decide that, he will push. But you must stand to your word. Who cares that it is his birthday week...he is using it against you!

Take care of you!

I didn't hear anything from him for 2 hours after our last conversation, and then he texted that he was going to bed. No apology. Nothing about whether he wants to stick in this relationship. Nothing.

He doesn't think he did anything wrong tonight, so I know he won't apologize. And if I want to keep the peace, that means I have to apologize. And I just don't want to. I have the right to get upset at him. I have the right to question whether he's telling me the truth. I have the right to occasionally lose my temper after everything he has put me through. Why should I have to apologize?

I do feel guilty that I acted this way on his birthday week. I wanted it to be special for him. But even that upsets me, because he had sex with OW on Christmas day, and then broke up with me the day before New Year's Eve. He wasn't thinking of me then, or trying to make those days special for me.

I feel so frustrated. Should I apologize to him?

No.

He is treating you like shit.

And you know it.

I am so sorry.

((((Lonelygirl10))))

Liars and cheaters don't get to have hissy fits. Please don't apologize. You did nothing that anyone with healthy self respect wouldn't have done.

I do feel guilty that I acted this way on his birthday week. I wanted it to be special for him.

WHY? He is treating you poorly. After he confessed to being a cheater...

But even that upsets me, because he had sex with OW on Christmas day, and then broke up with me the day before New Year's Eve. He wasn't thinking of me then, or trying to make those days special for me.

I don't mean to be rude but why are you taking this selfish treatment from your WBF??

I said that he can either deal with the consequences of his actions and be understanding that I have the right to question his words, or get out of the relationship.

BTW I love this^^^

You have drawn a line in the sand. You will not tolerate a passive agressive A-hole, especially one who Lies and CHEATS!

Find those bitch boots, put them on and keep them on! Your gonna need them with this guy!

I see some of myself in you. The part of myself that is willing to bend over backwards to make my WS happy and to fix things while he feels no consequences to his actions other than his own guilt. No need to do anything but get on with life and pretend like nothing ever happened. I also relate as a person who used to NEVER cuss, who now cusses . . . on occasion (never around the kids!).

I also very much relate to trying to get him to understand me. This is where the book, How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair might come into play. This is a book often recommended here and an excellent way for any WS to understand the hell their BS is going through (and good for the BS to read too). I spent months trying to get my FWS to read it and finally had to make an ultimatum one night when we got into an argument and he just wasn't getting it . . . AGAIN. I packed a suitcase and left the house (with two teenage kids at home). This was massive for me. I did it to get his attention and eventually told him I'd come back after he read that book.

Long story short, it worked. He read the book. This is very recent, so time will only tell how much of what he read sticks and positively affects things from this point on, but I do think he "gets it" far more than ever before. It was very, very tough for him to read the book as it reminded him over and over again that he is the "betrayer". And this would basically be why he resisted reading it. He couldn't stand the title of it to begin with because it was do damning, let alone sit and read it and subject himself to prolonged condemnation. Yet as far as I was concerned he needed to own what he did and DO SOMETHING already. To understand me . . . to help me.

I think the kind of ultimatum you gave is a little scary as you are basically telling him that divorce is an option. With my ultimatum, ending the relationship was not part of it at all. It was strictly to get his attention and get him to do something I'd been asking him to do for months that I felt would have a big impact on the future of our relationship.

At this point, I don't suggest you apologize, as this sounds like your usual M.O. whether you're at fault or not. It's a pattern he's used to and probably expecting, and continues to give him power to act the way he is. A friend of mine has been learning to "use her voice". She is allowed to speak up and say what she needs or even demands from the relationship. Yet it doesn't have to be "do this or leave the relationship". It can be other types of ultimatums that will also get his attention.

By the way, one of the most ridiculous things my husband ever said was when I was questioning him on whether or not he had actually had sex with her. He did not and for many reasons I believe him, but for a while I had some teeny lingering doubts that I expressed one night. It turned into a huge thing, during which he told me he had already told me they didn't sleep together and . . . "I should only have to say it once!".

HAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAA!!!!!

Seriously?! After all the months and of lying, he should only have to tell me this particular "truth" once??!!

Okay, that was just bonus info.

I hope I've helped you with some of what I've said. I'm actually not entirely clear if you are married or not, and that can make a big difference in how you proceed. I'm all for working hard to protect a marriage. However, I'm not so sure about protecting a relationship where there are no real strings attached to begin with and one in which marriage should possibly be avoided if there is already such betrayal happening.

So are you two married?

Keep us posted. Big hugs!

Oh yeah. I also relate to you about the Christmas Day thing, and other holidays. My 2nd Dday was on Christmas Day. UGGGHHHHHHH!!!!!

And New Year's Day is kind of ruined for me too for other reasons that take too long to explain, and Thanksgiving, and our anniversary.

It just sucks when so many special days become triggers and you wish you could just avoid them all together.

I sent him an email trying to explain how and why I acted the way I did tonight, but didn't apologize. I think maybe it was wrong for me to lose my temper the way I did, but I'm not sorry for the things I said. I guess I'll see how he replies in the morning.

his is where the book, How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair might come into play. This is a book often recommended here and an excellent way for any WS to understand the hell their BS is going through (and good for the BS to read too).

He recently read this, and even sent me emails with his notes and thoughts on it. I hoped it would help... but then things like tonight happen.

"I should only have to say it once!".

HAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAA!!!!!

Seriously?! After all the months and of lying, he should only have to tell me this particular "truth" once??!!

Yeah, mine has said that I have no reason to not trust him. And that I don't have the right to call him a liar. And other stupid things as well. It's like he just doesn't get it. I feel like I'm beating my head against a brick wall trying to make him understand why I don't trust him.

So are you two married?

We are not married, but we were about to get engaged right before the A. We were looking at rings, and I had told my parents he would probably ask for permission to marry me when he went home with me for Christmas. He ended up refusing to go home with me, and then had sex with OW on Christmas day. I didn't find out until April.

I think the kind of ultimatum you gave is a little scary as you are basically telling him that divorce is an option.

I didn't really see it as an ultimatum when I said it. That wasn't my plan. He said I didn't have a right to pick fights and call him a liar, and it just popped out of my mouth. *Sigh*

God this sounds like me ten years ago... and nine years ago.... and eight and seven and six... hell, I have always had this issue with the IL's.

I spent the first half of our relationship trying to prove to them that I was worth being around (despite the fact that I didn't drink and swear and back-stab like them.)

I spent the second half trying to get over it while FWH realized that they were assholes and tried to distance himself. During that time I would try to be the peacemaker and encourage him to invite them over to our house for dinners etc. I would encourage him to reach out to his drug abusive, NPD sister so that we could try and help her onto a healthier path. I would reach out to them when he wanted to ignore them, and they HATED me for "coming between" them and Crazz. How ironic.

Admittedly, a huge part of the problems in our relationship stemmed from how they all treated us. (When we were first dating I was uninvited to a grandfather's birthday because they didn't like his cousin's bf and decided to make it "family only" to be fair. He had no apology for me - didn't feel badly in the slightest. His sister invited his ex-girlfriend over later that night in hopes of reigniting something between them. This pattern went on for years.

Being involved with this family has been torture. I always imagined that Crazz and I would start our own family and move away from this dysfunction. Well, we got away, but with the A baggage it hardly feels like a win sometimes.

Why did I stay? Well, I cared for Crazz. Digging a bit deeper, I see pride and codependency also played a very big role in why I stayed around the only people I have ever met who were outright assholes and judged everyone else just for breathing. (I "smile too much" and can't be trusted. )

Lonelygirl10, I wouldn't give up this path for anything in the world because it gave me my sweet daughter. In my next life, though, there's no way in hell I'm putting up with this crap. Don't fight for love with this circus when there are people out there who are decent and considerate. You deserve better.

I got a message that he's sorry that I'm going through this, but still doesn't think I have the right to call him a liar or fuss at him.

I never used the word liar. I just told him that I didn't believe him, which I think is fine.

He's sorry you feel that way??

That comment tells you all you really need to know. He may be good at charming you when all is "ok"...but the minute you trigger over something he is doing and ask for respect,suddenly it's all on you...he is not the reason you feel that way..he isn't the reason you don't trust him..he isn't a liar(despite lying for months and months)..he is totally shifting all of this on to you. This is your fault for feeling the way you do.

You have no "right to fuss at him"? Um..he had no right to cheat on you and expose you to STD's..but he did. You have every right to want to work through this the right way...the healthy way. He no longer gets to decide what is right for you. Demanding respect is absolutely ok...stop apologizing. You.did.nothing.wrong.

This is so far from remorse. So far from where he should be by now.

This man IS a liar. He IS a manipulator. If he doesn't get by now that you can't trust him because he has lied..and that trust,once shattered,takes a very long time to earn back,then you need to rethink R with this man.

He is showing you who he is..believe him.

[This message edited by confused615 at 6:57 AM, September 4th (Wednesday)]

Thanks Confused. I really struggle with knowing where the line is for respecting myself vs being a bitch.

We talked more this morning, and he said that me losing my temper last night was out of the blue and unexpected. To me, it wasn't our of the blue. I was feeling upset for hours before I exploded, and I thought I had communicated that to him. He said that he can't read minds, and I could have done better talking to him. I'm not sure what I should have done differently though. I reread my texts, and I told him a few times while I was at work that my chest was feeling tight and I was starting to feel really anxious. I don't know how to communicate in a way that he will hear me or what to do different. I don't want to lose my temper, but sometimes I feel like that's the only way to get him to actually hear me.

Why would you getting upset seem so out of the blue for him? Your ddays are recent. He just admitted he had been lying to you just last week. Being betrayed is a gut wrenching trauma. Of course you are going to trigger and get upset..but it's not out of the blue..it's expected. By now,he should understand that.

I know he posted on SI...once? Why? If he truly wants to R and help you heal and figure his shit out,he should be posting.

You explained yourself perfectly. He is choosing to not hear you. He is CHOOSING to not pay attention to your needs during this difficult time.

It takes 2-5 years to heal from this shit...and that is with a remorseful WS,no TT,no broken NC,and no more lies. If,at a few months out,he is already acting as though these feelings of yours are "out of the blue" and unwarranted, he needs to wake up.

You shouldn't have to lose your temper to get him to hear you. he should be making a huge effort right now..falling all over himself to make sure you are his top priority..well..second ONLY to him healing himself. Im really sorry he is either unable to do that for you,or is unwilling.

(((((LG)))))

LG10, I remember you saying you are a lawyer.

Be very very very careful if you marry this guy. Get a pre-nup. If he does this again - and he doesnt sound very remorseful! - and either divorces you and requests alimony bc you earn more, or knocks up another woman, the financial repercussions could be HUGE.

You are not being unreasonable BTW. I was always the apologizer, the make-upper. I've stopped and I feel much more respect coming from my WH.

((((hugs))))

Ask him if this is "Tit-for-Tat."

You didn't invite him out to dinner with you parents a few weekend ago.

I wonder if this is payback.

Ask him if this is "Tit-for-Tat."

You didn't invite him out to dinner with you parents a few weekend ago.

I wonder if this is payback.

I don't think so. I think that he probably honestly just didn't think about inviting me, and then when I said I was upset and felt left out, his gut reaction was to make it seem like it wasn't for his birthday. I think lying or making excuses is just a habit for him, and that he just does it automatically in order to avoid arguments. I'm a little upset that I wasn't invited to his dad's house, but I'm mainly upset that he apparently thinks I'm dumb enough to believe that the visit had nothing to do with his birthday. I'm just tired of the lies and excuses and justifications. I wish he had just said "yeah you're right, the visit was for my birthday and I didn't think about inviting you. Sorry." Instead he tries to convince me that it wasn't for his birthday.

Confused--it probably seemed out of the blue because I'm usually very good at controlling my temper. I don't think I've ever cussed at him before, and it was out of character for me. Lately I just feel like I talk and talk and talk, and he doesn't get "it." I'm not even really sure what the "it" is. He told me that if I wanted to go to his dad's house, I should have just told him that and said it was important to me, and he would have brought me. I told him earlier in the week that it was important for me to be included with his family this week, so sort of assumed that he would already know that yesterday I guess. I suppose I could have been more explicit in my conversation with him yesterday, but I hate having to tell him every little thing. I want him to include me without me asking. I want him to get that on our last holiday together, he was lying to me and being with OW. I don't know if that makes sense, or if I'm expecting too much.

And I feel guilty for making his birthday about me and A stuff

[This message edited by Lonelygirl10 at 1:18 PM, September 4th (Wednesday)]

I do feel guilty that I acted this way on his birthday week. I wanted it to be special for him. But even that upsets me, because he had sex with OW on Christmas day, and then broke up with me the day before New Year's Eve. He wasn't thinking of me then, or trying to make those days special for me.

I hate having to tell him every little thing. I want him to include me without me asking. I want him to get that on our last holiday together, he was lying to me and being with OW.

So, truthfully, this wasn't about his birthday.

This was about your expectations surrounding holidays: Christmas, News Year's, birthdays, etc.

Lonelygirl10, how did you handle July 4th and Labor Day weekend?

I guess I don't really see those as holidays that I celebrate... They arent triggers for me because neither of us view them as special occasions. But regardless, he spent them with me. So it wasn't an issue at all.

I guess I feel like he should want to include me with his family on special occasions. That he should want me there. His parents live in our same town, and I've only seen them maybe 3 times total. Before the A, I just accepted it as part of him. But knowing that he was with OW on Christmas Eve and Christmas instead of me really hurts.

I said I was upset and felt left out, his gut reaction was to make it seem like it wasn't for his birthday.

Was it his birthday, though?

His parents live in our same town, and I've only seen them maybe 3 times total. Before the A, I just accepted it as part of him.

During the course of your dating relationship, he has chosen to invite you to meet his parents 3 times.

Don't let your insecurities turn you into a clingy girlfriend during his birthday *week*.

Now look at how he chooses to spend his birthDAY.

[This message edited by ladies_first at 3:45 PM, September 4th (Wednesday)]

I can see your point about the birthday week thing, and my insecurities.

I think I mainly got upset because I felt he was lying though in order to prevent me from feeling left out. It's the lie that bothers me the most, moreso than being excluded. I think so at least...