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User Topic: I don't knows could equal divorce
pizzalover
♀ Member
Member # 38336
Default  Posted: 9:33 AM, September 7th (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My BH is so angry with me. He can't understand what I did and neither can I. I don't know why I started the A. I don't know why it lasted 3 1/2 and may have lasted longer had we not been caught. I don't know why I felt I didn't know how to get out of it ("close your legs" my BH says). I don't know why I would have desperately needed a friendship with the AP's BW. I don't know why I introduced my BH to them. I don't know why I didn't stop this right away since I knew my BH and I were getting married. I don't know why I continued the affair through my engagement and marriage. I don't know why I valued my AP when he was only destroying my life. I don't know why I infiltrated his family and was around his kids. I don't know why I pushed my family and my BH's family away during this time. I don't why I am this kind of person.

My "I don't knows" may cause our divorce. That is what my BH said a few minutes ago. I don't want that but I understand his frustration. I would want to know too.

I am trying to let him know that I'm working hard. I'm delving into my past in IC and in MC to try to fix myself and our relationship. I guess I'm not doing enough. It's been over 7 months. I guess I should know by now.


Repulsed daily by my actions

Me - WW 38
Him - BH 39 (mpb1974)

Met - 8/13/99
Started dating - 9/11/99
Moved in together - 3/03
Engaged - 6/5/09
Married - 8/21/10
DD - 1/24/13 (affair began in May 2009)


Posts: 236 | Registered: Feb 2013 | From: PA
20WrongsVs1
♀ Member
Member # 39000
Default  Posted: 10:03 AM, September 7th (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Will any reason really ever satisfy BH? What if a therapist could hand you both *all the perfect answers* on a silver platter? Would BH's anger evaporate then?

Do you have any theories you're working on? For me, each theory led me to another, deeper reason. Not sure I truly know "why," or when the reason is ever the "final answer."

My C doesn't like me to beat myself up, and I don't like to see you beat yourself up. Loving and accepting yourself, despite your bad choices and flaws, is IMO a critical component to healing. Are you proud of the progress you've made so far? Try to stay positive and avoid getting discouraged.

You can only heal yourself; fixing the M takes two.


^^Everything I write, IMHO & YMMV.^^
fWW: 42, amazing H and two elementary-age kids.
Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing & rightdoing there is a field. I'll meet you there. When the soul lies down in that grass, the world is too full to talk about.

Posts: 763 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Redneck land
TxsT
♀ Member
Member # 39996
Default  Posted: 10:37 AM, September 7th (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Pizza,

I am sorry that your BS is having such a hard time dealing with this. As a BS I understand the huge black hole he is in and the never ending hell of pictures and thoughts running through his brain. But I have to say 20wrongs is right about beating yourself to a pulp over this. You are a person too and one that is in her own pain.

The one thing I slowly came to realize as we started climbing out of our own black whole was that my WS was NOT deliberately trying to forget things. I know this because both our memories in general are not functioning at all well.....a sign of significant trauma. May I suggest stopping to use the "I just don't know, or the I can't recalls" for a BS they are so hurtful. Instead try using something like " I am working so hard in IC to figure out these things and when I know them in more detail I will share them with you or maybe there is nothing more I would like to do right now but answer all of your questions, i know how important the answers would be to help your healing"' I think to us BS's, the first set of comments makes us feel like you really don't understand how badly we are hurting. Incorporating and identifying your partners feelings about something is the first step in helping them heal. Right now your H is trying to figure out if his life, all of it with you, was a lie. I know it wasn't ( in complete R now) but that is how he is approaching this right now. He feels you are sandbagging, hiding the truth when you use the first set of comments.

What finally helped H and I get over the hump of deceit was time, consistency and an awful lot of deep hard conversations. If you have not already read the book by Janice Abrahms Spring called "After the Affair, how to stop the pain and rebuild the trust when one partner has been unfaithful" go and buy it and read it. Give it to him and suggest working through the book together. Just the title alone will make him feel you are serious about working on this and getting through this WITH him. He can't read your mind and right now he feels he doesn't even know the person you really are. Help him to see that you do care about him and WANT to work through this.

The way we handled this book I mentioned is I, the BS read it first and highlighted everything in the book that I thought pertained to us, me and our situation. I also wrote comments or asked questions when I wanted to know what my H was feeling, thinking, or if something pertained to him specifically. Then my I WS read the book and slowly answered my questions, made his own observations or highlighted anything he felt important and wanted to share with me. I then went back and read his comments. In this manner we diffused the horribly hard face to face conversations. In the beginning of R just looking at the other person can trigger both of you....Him it will be for what he thinks is going on and you for the hurt and pain in his eyes when you realize how horrible you have been. By treating the book in this manner you are actually calming his brain....you are giving him facts, letting him see inside of your world. Please try it. If anything it would be a huge gift to give your BS at this time. It will make him feel you WANT HIM and are willing to work hard to show him.

T

[This message edited by TxsT at 11:56 AM, September 7th (Saturday)]


Me: BS 50
Hubby: WH 53
Together: 32 years
Married: 25 years 09/10/2013
2 boys: 23&21
Dday: 09/11/2012
A length: 4+ years (yes years)
status: Ongoing Reconciliation :o)

Through thick and thin we will survive but he gets only one shot at it!


Posts: 605 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: CDN
floridaredman
♂ Member
Member # 15122
Default  Posted: 11:05 AM, September 7th (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

pizzalover,

What did you get from your affair while you were in the midst of it?

Were you trying to live an alternate life just for you?

Did you have to make what you were living vicariously (being part of OM and his wife's life) become more tangible by forming a more intimate relationship with them?

Even if you answer these questions honestly and with soul searching, presently it won't be enough for your BH.

He is asking you why your moral compass is/was so out of bounds.

The real answer is because you reasoned that what you wanted immorally, outweighed the right thing to do. Saying no to something you desired passionately was something you had no boundary for.

You probably said no to many situations somewhat similar (men hitting on you or men you had a crush on)
This was no different...you just got tired of saying no and gave in.

Once you gave in you were too scared to stop.

Fear of the fallout and also fear of losing the guilty pleasure of being selfish.

None of these reasons will ever be good enough.

I think you keep running from really confronting yourself because of what you may find out.

You have to now or the " I don't knows" will cost you your marriage.


The simplest thing can be the hardest thing to do....FRM

Posts: 2412 | Registered: Jun 2007 | From: Florida
JustDesserts
♂ Member
Member # 39665
Default  Posted: 11:45 AM, September 7th (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Perhaps step back from trying to find forced, and perhaps pat and placating "answers" to the I don't know's of your past behavior.

And tell your BH "What I DO know is I am doing everything I can to change and BECOME the safe person you, I, and our marriage deserve."

Then add "And when, during my process of healing, change, growth, and self-discovery I find an answer to one of my 'I don't know's' I'll reach out and let you know so we can discuss".

And then walk that talk.

JD


2 year EA/PA. DDay 3/12. Broke NC 6/13 w/one stupid 5 line e-mail (which brought me to SI). Me: WH, 50. Her: BW, 49. Married 19 years. Two kids. Dog. Reconciling...together.

Posts: 403 | Registered: Jun 2013 | From: Suburbia, New England, USA
uncertainone
♀ Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 12:08 PM, September 7th (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

He is asking you why your moral compass is/was so out of bounds.

According to your other post, you don't really have a moral compass, pizzalover. If something is there and you want it you take it.

You do know why. You aren't constrained by moral imperatives. Why is that so hard to say? That doesn't mean you're a raging sociopath. If means your "gates" that slam shut don't.

If you want to change this it's really quite simple. Establish self control. Practice it. Perfect it. Move on. Life is not an all you can eat buffet. You'll be rotund and sick. Choices keep us healthy and actually increase happiness. Look at any child that gets all they want. They appreciate nothing. Nothing has value because it's not special, worked for, earned.

You may be quite intelligent and skilled. You can't appreciate that accomplishment because you didn't earn it. Not completely, at least. Your habit of stealing ideas, research, whatever, diminishes any reward because you know deep down it's truly not yours.

So, what are you going to do about this? That would be the biggest question I'd have if I were he. And you, for that matter.


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
20WrongsVs1
♀ Member
Member # 39000
Default  Posted: 10:45 AM, September 8th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

In my first IC session I said I was "empathy challenged." My brilliant C bristled she said no, you're disconnected.

Does pizzalover consult her moral compass before making a decision? Signs point to "no." ICR. It was easy for me to embrace my damage, identify with sociopathy, helplessly claim like Jessica Rabbit: "I'm not bad, I'm just drawn that way."

A person who truly lacks a moral compass has an easy cop-out of course they're going to get lost! Which way is north? Fuck it, I'll just try harder to find my way next time.

But i do like the moral compass direction...so to speak. What happened, pizzalover, that you decided to navigate through life without aid of magnetic poles? Personally I think I know my reason: some grown-up used me to get his jollies when I was like 6. He did something wrong, that he enjoyed, and had no consequences. Like pizzalover, when I wanted, and I thought I could get away with it: I took. Rules, laws, social mores, those are for rubes. Suckers.

Pizzalover, dig into the bottom of your backpack till you find that compass. Stop and think before you make choices. It's going to be hard, to overcome a lifetime of stumbling blindly through the woods, but you can find your own true north if you want to.


^^Everything I write, IMHO & YMMV.^^
fWW: 42, amazing H and two elementary-age kids.
Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing & rightdoing there is a field. I'll meet you there. When the soul lies down in that grass, the world is too full to talk about.

Posts: 763 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Redneck land
gonnabe2016
♀ Member
Member # 34823
Default  Posted: 4:08 PM, September 8th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My "I don't knows" may cause our divorce. That is what my BH said a few minutes ago

From my own perspective....this is how *I* see it:
If my WS *doesn't know why*, then I can only assume that it could (most likely will) happen again. It's very difficult to live a meaningful life when you are constantly waiting for the other shoe to drop......


"Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive." - Sir Walter Scott

In my effort to be *concise*, I often come off as blunt and harsh. Sorry, don't mean to be offensive.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCyL6pa_L4M


Posts: 7239 | Registered: Feb 2012 | From: Midwest
frankier
♂ Member
Member # 33901
Default  Posted: 6:28 PM, September 8th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

BS here...

I think that people have affairs because they want and because they can. Period.

There can be a lot of rationalization post discovery, blame shifting, FOO, unfulfilled needs, etc. Yes, all of these items may have an impact, but none of them is determining. At the end of the process, there is a willing act that sets things in motion (I am not talking necessarily about a sex act, as it could be a positive feedback to flirting or initiate flirting, etc).

People with character or who have worked on their sense of entitlement are able to say "no" to themselves and/or the AP. People who lack character and feel entitled just go into the affair. It is very simple.

Now, conveying that to your husband in his current state of mind is tantamount to telling him that you are a slut. That is what he will hear. You need to find a way, maybe with the help of MC or IC, whereby he understands that it is a character issue and that you will work on it.
Once he accepts that, things will be much easier. I know they were for me.

[This message edited by frankier at 6:30 PM, September 8th (Sunday)]


Me BS 48
Her WS 39
DDay 7/5/10 1/yr EA/PA
DS1 12 DS2 8

Posts: 109 | Registered: Nov 2011 | From: ChiLand
wifehad5
♂ Moderator
Member # 15162
Red  Posted: 8:20 PM, September 8th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

frankier,

Please remember which forum you're posting in. The WS's here are not your WS, so please don't project.


FBH - 42
FWW - 43 (BrokenRoad)
2 kids 7&12

The people you do your life with shape the life you live


Posts: 35329 | Registered: Jun 2007 | From: Michigan
standinghere
♂ Member
Member # 34689
Default  Posted: 2:30 AM, September 9th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I don't know if this will help, but some of what you say rings a bell in my relationship. Also, some of what the other responders have posted was pertinent to us as well.

My wife, I guess you would refer to her as FWS, did not know why she had the affair. Hers was short, just a couple of weeks to a month, she doesn't even remember.

Alcohol, Antidepressants, Marijuana, all mixed up together contributed yes, but why? She went crazy over "why", long before I knew about it. After I knew, and I kept asking "Why?" and demanding to know the answer, she went even crazier. Imagine doing something that everyone in your FOO did, something that you had sworn to yourself that you would never do, then doing it, and not knowing why you did it.

It took her a long time to start figuring that all out. Years actually. When she started really talking she ended up suicidal and was eventually hospitalized for several days.

Your husband is angry, has every right to be, he doesn't know why and can't understand if he doesn't, and if you don't know then how can he know.

But, what he doesn't realize, is that if you could carry on an affair like this for this long, and do the things that you did, you have a lot more work to do than he could possibly imagine.

Yes, get the book, and a couple of others, and STUDY THEM. You will find things in there that ring some bells. Write them down, but remember that they are only leads.

Figure out what you got, emotionally, psychologically, and physically from the relationship. Figure out why you needed that. Why would you need and want such a "secret" and to put one over on people that you know intimately. Was it a feeling of power? Was it a feeling of security? What was it?

Someone's brilliant IC brought up "disconnected". This is very important. You need to read and understand what it really means, how it manifests in our lives, what causes it in others, and figure out what it's origins are in your life. Because, you simply cannot do what you did and not be "disconnected" from others when you are doing it. People who feel "connected" don't do this. Why don't you feel that connectedness?

Finally, he is absolutely right, if you don't know why, and don't put the work into figuring that out, it will probably end in divorce, sooner or later. Sooner if he just can't take the lack of understanding any longer and decides to move on with his life, in a safer situation. Later when you, not understanding what you did or why you did it fall back into the pattern that you don't recognize and repeat it again.

What did my FWS learn: Lessons from FOO

Daddy cheats, Mommy cheats, Everyone drinks, Everyone does drugs, Everyone cheats, you can't trust anybody, those who love you betray you sooner or later, rapists get away with raping you when you are sixteen, when you go to your parents you get told to "keep your legs crossed" and "it wasn't rape unless you had an iron bar slammed into your head", your husband will leave you, your father will leave you, your mother will leave you, after your parents leave you it is your fault when your uncle gives you drugs and you wake up on a couch in your underwear, Marijuana helps you forget all this shit, Alcohol helps you forget all this shit, Drink/Smoke more if it is becoming overwhelming, sex is bad, sex is dirty, sex is to be used to control people, women who have sex are bad, don't tell anyone about any of the bad stuff, if you tell anyone they will leave you or blame you, never talk about it to anyone, don't talk to counselors either, guys won't like you if you don't have sex with them, sex should not be enjoyed, and on and on and on and on.

Which led, in her case, to being disconnected in her life, in our marriage, and fear that never ended. This in turn led to the affair, it was another futile and misguided attempt to "connect" and doing so in a way that is destructive.

You will need to read and study a lot, study yourself, your FOO, and your life, to understand what it all means. Only then can you let him know. But, you need to communicate with him NOW because if you don't, all he is going to know/believe is that it was something lacking that was not intrinsic to him, something that the other guy did not lack, that would lead you to do what you did and to do it for so long.

But, it is not him, it is all you, and it is not the other guy, it is all you. He needs to hear that over, and over, and over.


BH - Me - Late 30's (now late 40's)
WW - Her - Late 30's (now late 40's)
4 Children
Her - Love of my life...still is.
Reconciled - Partly...she can't get over it.
Her - Thunderstruck by what she did.

Posts: 892 | Registered: Jan 2012 | From: USA
frankier
♂ Member
Member # 33901
Default  Posted: 10:14 AM, September 9th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

frankier,
Please remember which forum you're posting in. The WS's here are not your WS, so please don't project.

WH5, I apologize if my tone seemed a little abrasive. It was not my intention to offend anyone. However, while I respect your opinion, I don't believe I am projecting. Unless there is some sort of situational coercion (e.g. work place or church dynamics) applied to the WS, I am respectfully staying with my point of view.


Me BS 48
Her WS 39
DDay 7/5/10 1/yr EA/PA
DS1 12 DS2 8

Posts: 109 | Registered: Nov 2011 | From: ChiLand
uncertainone
♀ Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 10:30 AM, September 9th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I think that people have affairs because they want and because they can. Period.

That is a very stupid statement. I read it on here all the time and it never gets any smarter.

That's like saying people breathe because they're alive, to me.

Take a look in general. You'll see all sorts of posts of how some BS's didn't treat their waywards very well BECAUSE of xyz. Post partum depression, exhaustion, depression, stress, anxiety, whatever.

None of those are simple. None of those dismissed. None of those responded to as, "bullshit, you were a bitch/prick because you wanted to be and could".

If it is the main reason there is no hope. Why would anyone reconcile or want to be with a person that would hurt someone just because they could and wanted to?


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
20WrongsVs1
♀ Member
Member # 39000
Cool  Posted: 11:26 AM, September 9th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Why would anyone reconcile or want to be with a person that would hurt someone just because they could and wanted to?

If BH viewed me as ^^that^^ or, as an entitled slut devoid of character, I hope he would run and take our kids with him.


^^Everything I write, IMHO & YMMV.^^
fWW: 42, amazing H and two elementary-age kids.
Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing & rightdoing there is a field. I'll meet you there. When the soul lies down in that grass, the world is too full to talk about.

Posts: 763 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Redneck land
frankier
♂ Member
Member # 33901
Default  Posted: 11:41 AM, September 9th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

That is a very stupid statement. I read it on here all the time and it never gets any smarter.


UO, I don't mean to start an argument, but I am not sure how your statement in your earlier post is any different than mine.

According to your other post, you don't really have a moral compass, pizzalover. If something is there and you want it you take it.

I take that you did not read my original post in its entirety, otherwise you would have noticed that I believe that people can and do work on their sense of entitlement (coming from whatever source) and that is a condition for reconciliation.

I think that it is a tenet here on SI that BS are not responsible for their WS affairs, regardless of the underlying conditions in the relationship. I wholeheartedly agree with that principle. I think it goes like this:

Issues --> feeling wronged (and or) --> sense of entitlement --> decision to have an affair

As a BS, I may be partially or totally responsible for the starting point. Potentially I can help with that if my soon-to-be-WS lets me know about it or if I am sensitive enough to figure it out by myself. However, as a BS, I am not responsible for what comes after that, especially the decision part. A WS who is reconciliation material (or who wants to fix her/himself on his/her own) works on each step of the above process. He/she works on better communication skills to avoid unaddressed issues.

He or she also works on the sense of entitlement. Within the context of a relationship, sense of entitlement to an affair is the is the percolating of whatever underlying reasons you mention and once it sets in is equivalent to shutting down any possibility to work on the issues and is usually coupled with contempt, the ultimate "enabler" in the mind of a WS.

At this point, decision is really commingled with the sense of entitlement although people can still and should work on their decision "skills" and looking at all pros and cons of having an affair. So, before getting to an affair, a WS has so many "check points" where he/she could have stopped and either engage the BS-to-be or get out of the relationship if not satisfied with that or get out to begin with. The work post affair needs to be done on each of the "check points".

My original post was my attempt to help Pizzalover by sharing my experience as a BS. I had to accept that my WW was a willing (and enabling) party of the affair. I don't see any other way one can start an affair. Once she acknowledged that and started to work on her sense of entitlement then we were able to move toward reconciliation. I was not responsible for her affair. Did I have to do work on myself? Of course. A lot. I acknowledged my shortcomings in our relationship and worked in IC, MC, and with her. I can assure you, though, that if she had not done her part, we would have had a different outcome.

Peace now...


Me BS 48
Her WS 39
DDay 7/5/10 1/yr EA/PA
DS1 12 DS2 8

Posts: 109 | Registered: Nov 2011 | From: ChiLand
uncertainone
♀ Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 11:53 AM, September 9th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

UO, I don't mean to start an argument, but I am not sure how your statement in your earlier post is any different than mine.

Mine was specific. Directed at this OP and responding to her posts. Your statement was not.


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
frankier
♂ Member
Member # 33901
Default  Posted: 11:58 AM, September 9th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage


If BH viewed me as ^^that^^ or, as an entitled slut devoid of character, I hope he would run and take our kids with him.

20WrongsVs1

I don't know if Pizzalover is a slut and I didn't say she was. What I tried to say in my original post is that Pizzalover husband may see her like that given her recent DD day. Her husband is still struggling with the shock of the discovery, the length of the affair, the AP identity etc. In the context of PL's husband accepting her affair as her choice and given the rawness of the shock, his reflexive reaction could be to think she is a slut and as such unreliable in the future. Therefore heading for divorce.

conveying that to your husband in his current state of mind is tantamount to telling him that you are a slut. This is what he will hear


Hence, I suggested to coordinate with her therapist a way to work on the acceptance part before starting the process of healing and reconciling.

You need to find a way, maybe with the help of MC or IC, whereby he understands that it is a character issue and that you will work on it.


Me BS 48
Her WS 39
DDay 7/5/10 1/yr EA/PA
DS1 12 DS2 8

Posts: 109 | Registered: Nov 2011 | From: ChiLand
frankier
♂ Member
Member # 33901
Default  Posted: 12:01 PM, September 9th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Mine was specific. Directed at this OP and responding to her posts. Your statement was not.

Doesn't a collapse of "moral imperatives", regardless of the underlying issues, precede any affair?


Me BS 48
Her WS 39
DDay 7/5/10 1/yr EA/PA
DS1 12 DS2 8

Posts: 109 | Registered: Nov 2011 | From: ChiLand
uncertainone
♀ Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 12:14 PM, September 9th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Doesn't a collapse of "moral imperatives", regardless of the underlying issues, precede any affair?

No. I don't function with moral absolutes. That's also a seperate statement than the one I quoted from you. I believe stealing is wrong. If we're experiencing the zombie apocolypse and I have to feed my kids. Taking care of my kids becomes my "moral absolute".

If someone hurts my kids I will hunt them down and remove them. Pest control. Right or wrong is no longer a factor for me.

I was completely honest with my spouse. I felt my honest protected my integrity. Nope. Didn't.

BTW, If one hasn't developed parts of their character there is nothing to "collapse".

Simplification can be very comforting. It also can be far from the truth and not even scratching the surface.

If you feel better bottom lining it for your situation that's fine. I wouldn't expect victims of crime to be the best resource for rehabilitation of a perpetrator to ensure true health.


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
frankier
♂ Member
Member # 33901
Default  Posted: 12:22 PM, September 9th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

UO - I feel that we are h/j the thread and providing little help to Pizzalover.

I hope it is ok to send you a PM later to close, from my point of view, the issue. If not, that's ok, too :)


Me BS 48
Her WS 39
DDay 7/5/10 1/yr EA/PA
DS1 12 DS2 8

Posts: 109 | Registered: Nov 2011 | From: ChiLand
Topic Posts: 25
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