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User Topic: MC - counsellor said partners are co-responsible for the affair.
Rebreather
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Member # 30817
Default  Posted: 11:50 AM, September 13th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Agree with Sailorgirl. Very good.

And Endless, I had the same thing happen. My FWH never told me he was remotely unhappy. Never said he thought I stopped loving him (how many of heard THAT one?!). I was the openly unhappy one in our marriage. Who was it that cheated, again?


Me BS
Him WH
2 ddays in '07
Recovering.
"The cure for the pain, is the pain." -Rumi

Posts: 6549 | Registered: Jan 2011
SisterMilkshake
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Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 11:53 AM, September 13th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Now I understand that it would probably be easy to find issues in any marriage that could be pointed to as a cause of infidelity, and if infidelity did occur, it would be the quick, easy, and in my opinion, lazy route to explain what was happening.
Truth, endless. Yeah, some of the marital issues I have seen here that the WS's said made them cheat were:
BW used four cheeses in her lasagna.
BW didn't make her delicious lasagna. (a different BW than above)
BW ironed too slow.

Can't make this shit up!



BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9798 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
Josephine01
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Member # 38511
Default  Posted: 12:41 PM, September 13th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I will say, that in regards to the physical abuse analogy, that it is not comparable.
Hitting someone is doing something "to" them. Adultery is not doing something "to" your spouse - it often happens wholly without regard to the spouse. Does it affect the spouse terribly? Yes, but my husband didn't have an affair to hurt me. It was his own sad show.

It seems that if a man or a woman decides to physically abuse their souse they too are doing this without regard to the spouse. I doubt that physical abusers sit around thinking about the mean things they are going to do. It just happens when they get angry (or when they are sad but are in the heat of the moment if you are a WS). My point is the mindset is the same. Neither really think they want to hurt someone. But, ultimately the result can be the same. They apologize, say it will never happen again. If they don't get help or rugsweep the action it usually does happen again.


Me, 42 BS
H, 61 WH
2 boys 19 and 15 years old
Married 24 years

Posts: 314 | Registered: Feb 2013
bionicgal
♀ Member
Member # 39803
Default  Posted: 1:59 PM, September 13th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

What some of these fairly outlandish analogies fail to recognize (besides that they are faulty logic in general) is that infidelity is the breaking of a marital vow. So, by extension, it is a marital issue.

Skiing and video games and smoking weed are bad behaviors, but can be neutral and non-marriage threatening in and of themselves. But, they aren't relationship related directly. Cheating on a spouse is.

There is also faulty logic in assuming that because there were martial issues, that the BS is in any way to blame for the affair, or, that the marriage was necessarily a bad one. Good people in good marriages have affairs as well. 60% of marriages are affected by infidelity, and some here would have us believe that 60% of the population are dirty rotten scoundrels who are in pristine marriages. Ain't so.

I remember when I first started processing this I rejected that our marriage was in any way part of the equation - it made me furious to even contemplate. However after a lot of reading and some counseling (which does focus on systems) I do believe that the conditions in our marriage at the time played a part in my husband making a terrible mistake. His mistake he is responsible for, but I am certainly at least partly responsible for the state of our marriage. I don't take responsibility for his actions, and I never will. But, I had a role as well.

Now I do think SA folks, serial cheaters, and WS who are not remorseful are a different case, and I said as much.


me - BS (40s)
DDay - June 2013, A was 2+ months, EA then PA
In MC & Reconciling
An affair is a personal crisis, not a relationship.

I edit, therefore I am.


Posts: 2058 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: USA
catlover50
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Member # 37154
Default  Posted: 1:59 PM, September 13th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I want to add that all the articles one can read about "affair-proofing" your M miss one key point--a person needs to affair proof themselves. There is literally nothing I can do to prevent my H from cheating on me--that's on him. I try to be the best wife I can, but I always did. He needs to do the work to make himself affair proof--that's what IC can help with.

Eta--haven't figured out italics!

[This message edited by catlover50 at 2:03 PM, September 13th (Friday)]



Dday -9/24/2012
Reconciling

Posts: 1752 | Registered: Oct 2012 | From: northeast
SisterMilkshake
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Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 2:02 PM, September 13th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

What was your role than, bionicgirl, in the affair?
I don't take responsibility for his actions, and I never will. But, I had a role as well.


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9798 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
SisterMilkshake
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Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 2:14 PM, September 13th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I respectfully believe your logic isn't logical to me. Any behaviour that affects the marriage is relationship related.

Scenario 1 ~ Jane is a bad wife. Joe becomes an alcoholic. Is this the marriage fault? Is it Jane's fault? Is it Joe's fault? Did Jane's role have anything to do with this?

Scenario 2 ~ Jane is a bad wife. Joe becomes a drug addict. Is this the marriage's fault? Jane's fault? Joe's fault?

Scenario 3 ~ Jane is a bad wife. Joe hits her. Is this the marriage fault? Is it Jane's fault? Is it Joe's fault? Did Jane's role have anything to do with this?

Scenario 4 ~ Jane is a bad wife. Joe commits adultery. Is this the marriage's fault? Is this Jane's fault? Is this Joe's fault? Did Jane's role have anything to do with this?

Scenario 5 thru 8 , Jane is a good wife and Joe becomes an alcoholic, drug addicted, wife beating, cheater. Is this the marriage fault? Is it Jane's fault? Is it Joe's fault? Did Jane's role have anything to do with this?


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9798 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
cluless
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Member # 40538
Angry  Posted: 2:25 PM, September 13th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Nothing is more frustrating that to hear that you (the victim) are responsible in ANY way for your WS A. There is NO excuse for the A... PERIOD.

My experience is you have to keep going through the MC's until one actually knows what they are talking about. I get what she's saying about the communication issues, that of course is a breakdown of the marriage but still has NOTHING to do with the A. Keep your chin up and find another MC ASAP. Good Luck!


WH 57
BS 55 -- Me!
LTA EA/PA 1-1/2 years.
D-Day 8-12, 2nd D-Day 9-13, 3rd D-Day 10-13 (stopped counting tt still coming in)
Married 17 yrs, together 20.
MC & IC has been a JOKE.

Status: In careful R. Sometimes spinning our wheels and starti


Posts: 166 | Registered: Sep 2013 | From: Oceanside
Snowy
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Member # 14028
Default  Posted: 4:34 PM, September 13th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Issues in a marriage are a part of the puzzle in understanding why affairs happen.

The way I see it, all marriages have issues. What should ideally happen is the partner who is having an issue communicates then to their spouse and you both work on resolving them.

When an affair happens, the WS rather than addressing the issues decides instead to opt out into some fantasy world. It is only when the affair is discovered, does the BS find out there were issues with the marriage. Up until this point, most BS believed their marriage was good. Why? Because the WS didn't man up and start addressing the real issues by communicating their problems to their spouse. How can you fix a problem in your marriage if you don't know about it.

An affair is an incrediably awful choice your WS makes in dealing with issues/problems they are having with the marriage.

As some one said, not having the right cheese has been given for an affair. Anyone who gives that as an excuse for an affair is not owning up to the real issues in the marriage. All they are trying to do is deflect the fact they made very poor choices.

The analogy with physical abuse is an interesting one. I can understand why people would make that analogy.
The analogy does raise several couple questions;

1. If you believe it is abuse why are you staying in the marriage? If some one is being physically abused I am sure we would all advise them to find the front door and run.

2. Why go to MC sessions? Is it to carry on the fight in a different format?


Posts: 159 | Registered: Mar 2007
HopeImOverIt
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Member # 34517
Default  Posted: 5:09 PM, September 13th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Is it possible that the "blame-the-marriage" approach is a TACTIC some therapists are using to keep the WS engaged in the MC? My thought is that some therapists may fear that if they put the blame 100% on the WS, then the WS is not going to want to come back for a 2nd visit.

I think it is extremely challenging for a therapist not to be seen as "taking sides" and thus alienate one of the spouses. Sometimes I wonder if the desire to be seen as "even-handed" may be what's driving some of these "fault-of-marriage" messages.


Me: BW (50)
ExWH: (51)
2 teen-age boys
Divorced

Posts: 266 | Registered: Jan 2012 | From: PA
SisterMilkshake
♀ Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 5:12 PM, September 13th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Great point, HopeImOverIt!


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9798 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
Simple
♀ Member
Member # 18814
Default  Posted: 5:13 PM, September 13th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Based on your counsellor's response, then you should've cheated as well.

GET A NEW ONE and tell this MC he/she sucks and need more training.

The M issues are SEPARATE from the A. PERIOD.

Hugs your way.


Love is a choice.

True love is harder to come by than soul mates. True love requires work.

Ignorance can be cured with knowledge. There is no cure for being an idiot.


Posts: 927 | Registered: Mar 2008
sailorgirl
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Member # 38162
Default  Posted: 5:56 PM, September 13th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

What some of these fairly outlandish analogies fail to recognize (besides that they are faulty logic in general) is that infidelity is the breaking of a marital vow. So, by extension, it is a marital issue.
Skiing and video games and smoking weed are bad behaviors, but can be neutral and non-marriage threatening in and of themselves. But, they aren't relationship related directly. Cheating on a spouse is.

We may be saying very similar things in different ways. The point I was trying to make is that infidelity is not a result of conditions in the marriage any more than risky sports or gaming obsession are.

Infidelity may affect the marriage and the BS more than those other things. But the marriage and the BS do not cause infidelity any more than they cause any other "bad" behavior.

I don't think all WS's are dirty rotten scoundrels, although the phrase is apt for some. Mine is a decent but fundamentally flawed man whose major screw-up happened to be literally screwing. This rocked me and our marriage more than some other unhealthy behaviors would have. But, I don't believe that the fact that he had an affair sheds any more light on me as a wife than the World of Warcraft scenario would have.


Married 14 years, three amazing kids
H had 17 month EA/PA
D-day 1/5/13
Reconcilling

Posts: 787 | Registered: Jan 2013
summerain
♀ Member
Member # 37439
Default  Posted: 6:05 PM, September 13th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

face punched: I am in no way attacking you but I would like to point out

I mean, listen...if you two went to MC after he beat the living shit out of you, no MC in their right mind would tell you, "His choice to hit you was all his, but you helped contribute to a marital environment where he felt unsafe expressing his anger and so held it in until he acted out."


Scenario 3 ~ Jane is a bad wife. Joe hits her. Is this the marriage fault? Is it Jane's fault? Is it Joe's fault? Did Jane's role have anything to do with this?

That is exactly what happened to me. Whilst I actually didn't really like that MC very much. I liked him more than the others because it made sense. There is also a victim cycle as well. We both had to stop the cycle, as once the DV went into physical territory, both the victim and the perpetrator undergo an antagonist cycle.

either way OP, Fire the MC. Infact I've never even been a fan of the 50% responsibility for problems in the marriage. You can do your 50% really well but it's hard when someone is not 'in' the marriage.

He or She is a fuckwit


p.s after reading all of these replies about DV, is it really necessary to compare the two? I honestly don't understand, domestic violence is a different beast to infidelity. As is addiction problems, mental illness, drug taking etc. I think arguments would have more weight and have more impact if we stopped drawing uninformed comparisons.

They are all shit, but in different and unique ways.

[This message edited by lauren123 at 6:33 PM, September 13th (Friday)]


OW1 inadvertently let me know WH loves English breakfast tea. Never ever saw him drink it. And I never will.

Posts: 818 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: Australia
heartache101
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Member # 26465
Default  Posted: 6:19 PM, September 13th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I think you need to call around for a MC? Ask them straight up. If a person cheats while married who is responsible for breaking their vows? The wayward 100% or is it 50/50.
That should weed out the trash real quick!
Find a new MC.
Sistermilkshake spot on as always!


There are degrees to which you let people back into your life and degrees to which you let them back into your heart-which, of course, are not the same thing

Posts: 3188 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: Indiana
StillGoing
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Member # 28571
Default  Posted: 12:21 AM, September 14th (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I will say, that in regards to the physical abuse analogy, that it is not comparable.

How about alcoholism?

It's an escape that devastates everybody involved and is also a wholly selfish choice on the part of the alcoholic.

There can be a list of reasons fifteen miles long but the choice of response to those reasons lies with the individual.


"You have insulted my footwear."

Posts: 7483 | Registered: May 2010 | From: USA
honesttoafault
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Member # 27105
Default  Posted: 1:22 AM, September 14th (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Making analogies to alcoholism, physical abuse, drug addiction, etc to infidelity is just saying that that the WS had a problem with the M (or whatever) and the coping mechanism that was chosen was to have an A.

I have often said to WH that if he put even 25% of the effort he took to have the A and conceal it from me into our M, we would have the best M in the world. But that was not his choice on how to deal with whatever was making him unhappy.

I do agree wholeheartedly that if the WS was unhappy they should have tried to rectify the problem in the M, or divorce.

Both parties should seek IC first before going to MC.


Posts: 1947 | Registered: Jan 2010
aesir
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Member # 17210
Default  Posted: 1:23 AM, September 14th (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Not the first time I have said this, but...

That MC should be fired. Or set on fire. I fine either way really.

I don't know any MCs or how to find them...without telling the world why i need one am not sure how to find a good one...any tips?

Start with the yellow pages, call them up and interview them, just like you would when hiring any employee. See what their qualifications are, not just their credentials (which are being continuously devalued with what is being churned out of the degree mills), but their beliefs and philosophy regarding marriages with infidelity. Undoubtedly you will have other issues beside the infidelity to deal with, but linking them together like that is irresponsible, and very dangerous.


Your mileage may vary... in accordance with the prophecy.

Do not back up. Severe tire damage.


Posts: 14924 | Registered: Nov 2007 | From: Winnipeg
Bobbi_sue
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Member # 10347
Default  Posted: 2:13 AM, September 14th (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

but unless your husband is a SA, serial cheater or psychopath

I think another thing being left out here is that some who cheat never really had the same strong moral code. Many BSs here will claim that cheaters are "broken." Well that is according to our moral code, and they are not necessarily broken by their own moral code, or by others with the same type of moral code.

After reading about some who cheated while engaged, or right after the wedding, they might not really be SAs or psychopaths, but they might have weak morals or different morals than we do, and in their mind lying about being monogamous is not really "that bad" in their mind, and having sex with others is not "bad" either. They believe in being selfish and entitled and that is just who (some) people are inside.

A it's like saying that one spouse is responsible for the other's escapes like drinking, drugs, gambling, etc.

I actually think sometimes spouses do blame these behaviors on each other, but I don't think it is right for them to do that. Sometimes it is part of that dynamic of vicious cycle that might be part of the lead up to one cheating in the M. But I would be very irritated if an MC brought this up before knowing many details of the M, kind of painting a picture that in "all" marriages, the partners are co-responsible for affairs. I would say in at least SOME marriages, there might have been issues that one or both partners were contributing to, that did contribute to an eventual A.

I'd ask the MC if she felt the same way about domestic violence, or verbal abuse, or drug or alcohol abuse....are those shitty coping skills 'caused by the marriage'?

I have verbally abused my H on occasion and in my mind, even to this day, some of his actions precipitated this abuse. Doesn't make it right for me to do that. He did things that he knew would anger me to this level. However, I also acknowledged that I needed to get that under control, and I have done so. I'm kind of proud of myself for that.

My H never even brought that up but I see on my own that it was wrong and damaged his self-esteem and made him more ripe for the pickin's when the whore came around and told him that he was practically God on the same day I called him an idiot. But that is just one situation: mine. I would never in a million years suggest any two situations follow any given pattern, and I hate that so many counselors do that.

How about alcoholism?
It's an escape that devastates everybody involved and is also a wholly selfish choice on the part of the alcoholic.

My answer to this has always been that I would divorce an alcoholic even faster than a cheater. I have no tolerance for some behaviors even though he may not have said a vow to me specifically stating he would not become an alcoholic, when we got married. Ironically, I did kick my H out because of lying and drinking, for a while, before D-day #2. I didn't know he was also cheating on me at that time. I kicked him out for the drinking and lies.

We didn't do MC and I'm just as happy that we didn't. I know what I will tolerate and what I won't. He had a choice to shape up and be a man who deserved to be married to someone like me, or not. Miraculously, he did exactly that. My H was just as messed up as the worst of them during that year his mother and DD died, and yet when faced with getting his act together or losing me, he did the right thing, and without counseling. And my H and I both have as many FOO issues as anybody here. I just don't believe that spending years of rehashing our childhoods is all that helpful. It does help to recognize things that were wrong in our childhoods and try not to repeat them, but for us, that is about as far as it goes.

We have been married for 18 years and are closer than ever and communicate better than ever.


Posts: 5760 | Registered: Apr 2006
Heartbroken2013
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Member # 39722
Default  Posted: 4:05 AM, September 14th (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Our MC told us that as I was starting up my own business (from home) that I had neglected the marriage, that I had stepped away and was 'moving on' with my life, that my husband was weak (that bit was true) and so looked online for comfort of friendship, which then led to cybersex!!!!!!!

She also told me that 4 years ago when we had did our 4th ivf to have a baby, when I miscarried, that it wasn't his fault (as he thought it was his as he was born with bladder exstrophy so baby must have had it) but that it was MY fault, as miscarriages are usually the womens bodies rejecting the baby!!!!!

LIKE I CHOSE TO GO THRU IVF 4 TIMES TO REJECT MY BABY!!!

Stupid fucking bitch!

Needless to say we don't go to MC no more and are 10 mths since DD and are doing fine by ourselves!!!


Me & Hubby = aged 46
Together 16 years
Married 9 years
He had 1 yr EA in chat room then 6mths EA phone/texting with same woman.
Cyber sexed with many OW in chat room for at least 1 year.

Posts: 123 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: UK
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