I think her decision Coda is based on two things: Bad advice and a lack of reality.
Bad advice because her leaving will give you an edge in prime custody.
I donít think gunning for sole custody is necessarily a good idea Ė prime is fine but so far your wife doesnít sound like an incapable parent. Like it or not then having an affair wonít make a judge see your wife as an incapable parent to the extent of seeing her as a threat to your kids.
Prime custody is fine though and gives you a slight edge.
Lack of reality because she thinks after separation/divorce there wonít really be much change in your relationship. She thinks she can go out with OM on a Friday evening, have a nice time with him and then on Saturday morning he drops her off at the family home so she can spend time with the kids. Heck Ė you might even make lunch for them and you all have a nice chat playing Ludo with the kids. Then at five OM picks her up and they ride into the sunset waving bye bye.
Coda Ė feed the former Ė dispel the later.
Donít stand in her way regarding moving out if thatís what you want. It will give you an edge in settlement negotiations. Not a significant edge but stillÖ an edge.
Dispel the later. Once you separate then get your children used to time with her and time with you. Your time together as a familyÖ Itís over.
I really been pushing for NC, but verifiable. She can't seem to agree to the verifiable part. So until I get that (if ever), I am moving forward with the divorce.
And I'm giving her info like, how much money we spend a month as a family to maintain our current lifestyle. She knows how much she makes and how much I make. No way she can maintain her lifestyle after D.
She started complaining about why I had to tell the OMW. Now the wife knows who she is, and she's a wanted woman. I reminded her that she is an adult, she knew the risks of an affair, and now she has to face the consequences.
I don't think she will actually leave the house. It was probably a bluff. She can't afford it, at least not for any length of time.
I get the feeling she has very resentful feelings towards me, since I ruined her happy fantasy.
Do not badger her with info or talk of R. Basically by now she should have gotten the message: You are willing to R if she meets some basic demands. You donít need to remind her daily.
The arguments? Well she needs them. She needs reasons to justify her behaviors. I warned you about them way back on page 2 of this thread:
The WW wants a reason to leave you so the WW starts arguments (that you donít respond to). These arguments are aimed at justifying her view on the marriage.
DO NOT PARTICIPATE!! If she makes some comment you answer should be in the vein of ďIím sorry you feel that way. Itís something we could address if we had a future together but I really donít see a point in going into this nowĒ
Coda Ė Iím not going to give you any false hope on reconciliation. What I can tell you is that I think that way back when you started posting your marriage had no chance of recovery. Now you seem to be on a clear path and that path just MIGHT give you the possibility for YOU to decide whether to R or D.
All you can do is kill the Affair.
Arguing with your wife about her fantasy is pointless.
Focus on you. Focus on your kids.
Leave your wife out in the "cold".
Sooner or later she will be forced to look in the mirror.
Time is really on your side. The Divorce papers will help you measure that time.
I still prefer to R if she wants to and will agree to my conditions, in particular verifiable NC. If not, I'm going through with the divorce. She is still in a fog though. I don't know if even getting served will get through that.
Thanks again everyone for your comments, advice, and support. It has really helped me through the last several weeks.
You made a decision that you can no longer tolerate her infidelity.
Good for you.
Divorce takes months. Maybe your W will come out of the fog, maybe not.
After she gets served sit her down and discuss the splitting of assets and finances.
A lifestyle change is in order for her.....
Expect her to respond angrily once summoned. Expect her to tell or indicate she was leaning towards R but the summons makes her want out.
When she does this then tell her; sorry you feel that way. This isnít what I want but while you arenít willing to commit to the reasonable minimum requirements I have requested then you are still in infidelity. I am determined to get out of infidelity Ė with or without you.
She did write me a very long letter yesterday. In summary, she said she doesn't know what to do. She doesn't like the idea of divorcing me. But she is worried if we can repair the damage from the affair. And she is not sure if her feelings of love will return for me. She said Our marriage wasn't bad, but not happy either. This part is true, because I felt the same. She said she is not only considering her own feelings, and that she is also thinking about our children and our family.
But as of now, she cannot decide what is the best thing to do.
What she didn't really address in her letter was much about the affair besides the fact that she does feel bad about it and that I will hold this against her going forward. She didn't write anything about how she feels about the AP and the current state of the affair.
She did not get served yet. But I do think the letter was a sincere attempt to communicate her feeling of not knowing what to do, and some of the reasons why.
"Affairs are not mistakes, they are a series of deliberate choices." - CrappyLife
So again, I have no idea what she is thinking/feeling. It is as if she doesn't care at all. In fact she went golfing with friends today.
I'm not going to say anything about it either. Just wait an see what happens.
[This message edited by coda87 at 6:19 PM, November 4th (Monday)]
Since I know your wish is to reconcile my advice will be geared towards that. Right now itís imperative that you hold your course.
There are numerous things you need to do regarding the divorce procedures; you need financial statements, tax returns, deeds, leases, contractsÖ Start gathering all this info. It saves attorney fees and keeps you focused. Do this in a non-intrusive way regarding your WW.
Start mentioning things and decisions that have to be done and made in the next weeks. For example; do you two plan on doing Thanksgiving together? Do you plan on being in the same house for Christmas? Donít be afraid of mentioning these issues; itís imperative that now she realizes that you are serious in your determination that she selects between being married to you or divorce.
Stop all discussions and decisions that reflect your life together as husband and wife in the near future. If she says she needs to renew her carÖ tell her that it canít be done until the divorce is over. If she wants the family to go to Italy next summerÖ tell her that future plans arenít really appropriate now.
You can and should still make it clear to her that she does have options: She CAN tell you that the affair is over and that she can be accountable for NC and that will make you slow down and/or delay the divorce process. You donít need to appear happy with whatís going on but you DO need to seem determined to get out of infidelity.
I agree that she is probably confused. On the one hand I filed for divorce and she was served. But the last week or so, I have not showed any anger, no questioning her, or trying to get her to talk. She went out Wed, Fri, and Mon and came home after 1100pm each time. Seems like she doesn't want to confront what is happening. I didn't question her about her whereabouts. I've actually been very nice and polite. I even washed her car on the weekend. Took the kids and her to a nice restaurant on Saturday night. And I've been more normal, somewhat cheerful (ie not acting depressed, distribured, needy). I can tell by looking at her she is thinking what is going on?Her tell is to play with her fingernails, which she has been doing a lot of the last few days.
I also met with AP's wife today. She says that her WH is also confused about what to do now. At first he was angry and wanted to D, but now he has calmed down. She has been doing a consistent 180 with him, unlike me. Initially he said he was going to move out, now he doesn't want to because of his kids (8 & 12 yrs old). I told her my hunch is once she files for divorce, her WH will panic once he realizes he is going to lose his family and half of his assets. His main goal in life per his wife, is to make money. We both are reasonably sure the affair is ongoing, but at a much more subdued level. But she told me her husband is not the type to express his intentions and since he is not sure what to do, he probably has not promised my wife anything. So it must be a hard decision for my wife not knowing what could happen with the her future with the AP. And knowing that I intend divorce her, and that process has just started.
Anyway, I'll feel like I am getting stronger. I still prefer to R. But if D is our fate, so be it. It just seems somewhat tragic, since I know that for my part at least, I see our marriage as still having a chance.
How did you pay your attorney? Did you also use joint assets? Read up on divorce in Hawaii to learn how debts incurred in the marriage are dealt with. In this aspect you need to be realistic: I know you are ďfriendsĒ and that you hope that if this really is the end then it be as amicable as possible BUT divorce and money tend to bring out the worst in people. So being clear ahead of time how you two will pay the (initial) fees for the attorney is only sensible and in no way antagonistic. In fact it can be argued that this might be key to ensuring the process is amicable. Just be careful to be fair.
I think you should also start actions that make the affair and the consequences reality. Yep Ė itís back to exposure time. You can start by pressing on your wife on the following issues:
When to tell the children (I am a firm believer in all stakeholders in the family being told the truth in an age appropriate way).
What arrangements for Thanksgiving and Christmas (Will you spend it together as a family or should you start considering formal separation before these days).
If I were you I would seriously be documenting all this for your attorney for when parenting plans and decisions are to be made regarding them. I'm sorry to say this but rarely does a women who has an affair, goes out many nights a week AND has already paid an attorney a retainer hasn't already begun making plans. She's very selfish not only with her marriage but also with her own children and what she has done to the other man's spouse. I know you still love her, but this woman is immature and toxic. And frankly I'm sitting her debating if she is even a good mother at this time.
[This message edited by SeanFLA at 11:46 AM, November 8th (Friday)]
"You never know how strong you are until being strong is the only choice you have." ~ Bob Marley
In Hawaii any debts or assets are joint in the case of divorce. So we both used our joint credit card to pay the retainer fee.
My attorney recommended, and I have followed his advice to keep a log of when she goes out. Just in case we need it for custody reasons, if we end up fighting about that in court. He also is going to file something called a pre-decree motion financial restraining order which basically says that neither of us can spend money wastefully, try to hide assets, dispose of assets, rack up debt etc. except for normal living expenses or with approval from the other party. And we have to provide timely financial disclosure, which would me she has to show me her bank acct records. (She has her own bank account for business). She can already access our joint bank account and other financial records online. I already turned in an asset/debt stmt and income expense stmt to my attorney which was filed with the court. I've done as much as I can to prepare for the divorce.
She still has not talked to me about it. Time is ticking away. I'm trying to wait patiently. Soon I will bring up the issue of letting the kids know. We definitely need to do this before he mandatory counseling both we and the kids are required to attend (scheduled for 12/18).
It's not realistic to hold onto dreams of reconciliation when your WW has shown no desire to participate. Just press on with the divorce and continue to post on SI. Great bunch of people with common experiences who will offer much needed support. Steel yourself to be hard-nosed with the terms of the settlement; now is not the time to be generous with a woman who has shown you absolutely no respect.
I like Biggers idea of speaking to your wife about plans for Thanksgiving and Xmas.
And yes if your date of counseling is 12/18 you both need to address your kids about the Divorce very soon.
Your wife is a coward Coda. Her not addressing the D with you is a sign of that.
She is going to leave you with the kids IMO.
Do not make it easy for her.
If it was me and my wife was running out the door for a few evenings in a week I would text her and say sorry honey but I have a meeting tonight. Get your butt home and watch the kids tonight.
But at least document her actions.
And while you both agree that your marriage had issues and you both weren't happy.
Her choice to have an affair did not help the marriage, help you or bring anyone more happiness.
She is a fool.
I'm getting pretty fed up. But not showing her my anger.
This really is a crappy situation.
Remember, you didn't file in an attempt to shock your STBXWW into reconciling; her loyalties and emotional commitment lie with OM not you and thats not going to change anytime soon.
This is a real tough time; your wife thinks she is calling your bluff and so she steps up the affair a few notches. All you can do is press on and get her out of your life as soon as possible. Your WW may be using your filing for divorce as an instrument of pressure to get OM to commit; nothing you can do about that, but I suspect the karma bus will eventually pay this selfish woman a visit. There will be retribution for her putting her fantasy needs first and you and the children last.