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User Topic: Please help
tired girl
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Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 10:14 AM, September 19th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

RSEB,

Why do you always make excuses for him? You say he is one way, then when someone says confirms that your H has issues that need to be attended to , you jump in and defend him.

Look, you are stating that you need more emotionally from him, and that the M has never been good. It has had its good POINTS, but overall you were dissatisfied, and never spoke up about it. We get it. Your H otoh, thought all was well because he behaved however he wanted because you quickly learned to keep your mouth shut.

Do you want to continue to stay in a M with a man that has no interest in changing himself? That is what this all boils down to.


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 4767 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
RSEB
♀ Member
Member # 34728
Default  Posted: 10:43 AM, September 19th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Tired Girl,

Why do you always make excuses for him? You say he is one way, then when someone says confirms that your H has issues that need to be attended to , you jump in and defend him.

I am NOT defending him, or at least not trying to, I do see how it does appear that way. It was not my intention. I was trying to paint an accurate picture of him for my SI friends. There are always three sides to every story. I was just trying to be accurate.

But YES YES and YES, I have been missing many emotions in my M for as long as forever. I just want this to turn into a bashing (led by me) of my BH. He is still the BS and he is still dealing, or actually NOT dealing with being crushed.

I don't know how to work on all the pre A issues when he can't get past the A. I do hurt for him and all the pain he is still going through. I know he would be further along in his journey if he would just get on a path and work through it...but that is a HUGE "if".


But there is some truth to your post, I do feel like I want to protect him. I love him and want him to be happy again, even though I have told him I don't feel he has ever been truly happy/content. He is ALWAYS looking for the next thing to accomplish/do. It is extremely hard for him to just "be".

So to answer your question no I do not want to stay in "our old M"...but I don't feel like giving him an ultimatum is the way. I have spent the past four years living with guilt, shame and remorse for my actions. It has been very hard for me to live with what I have done. But now that the smoke is clearing a bit, I do realize this cannot continue this way. I do not have to live in this unhappiness forever, but if there is a chance or a slight hope that I can get through to him, I don't want to give up before I have tried EVERYTHING. I want him to want to change, but the first step is he has to see it, acknowledge it and then do the work to change it.

Am I making sense anymore? ARRGGHHH


ME - FWW


Posts: 265 | Registered: Feb 2012
uncertainone
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Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 10:46 AM, September 19th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I am not trying to tell anyone how to measure their betrayal experience. If you read my entire post you would see that I consider both betrayals to be massive.

Yes, you did. Then continued to compare stating which was worse. Believe it or not some do not consider marriage a greater commitment at all but merely a legal one.

Folks on this site that aren't married don't get the betrayal lite version of the cluster fuck.

RSEB, TG is right. You posted requesting help so we gave our opinions based on what you yourself have posted.

It's your choice but you don't appear to be ok with the current situation. Since you can't change him your option is to accept or make a decision. Staying and trying to get him to change how he feels while ignoring what he's showing you is using some of the same flawed thought processess you used to cheat.

Saw a bumper sticker the other day that's funny sad and true. "If it doesn't fit force it. If it breaks it needed replacing anyway." God, how many times have most of us tried to do just that.

[This message edited by uncertainone at 10:47 AM, September 19th (Thursday)]


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
MC_Jack
♂ Member
Member # 35016
Default  Posted: 10:53 AM, September 19th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi,

Why do you always make excuses for him?

I do not see it that way. I just see RSEB making sure that there isn't any demonizing going on. I am sure her BH is a good man, in the way HE LEARNED HOW TO BE. I get that because I was a child of a single mother and was parentified in the process.

It has had its good POINTS, but overall you were dissatisfied, and never spoke up about it... behaved however he wanted because you quickly learned to keep your mouth shut.

^^^ too black and white. it is reasonable for one to assume that 'all's well' absent a complaint. It is possible that RSEB 'quickly learned' avoidance from her FOO, not her H. But her role in the absence of constructive conflict in the M is for her to figure out.

...a man that has no interest in changing himself? That is what this all boils down to.

^^^ yep. that's about it. that's where you are now.

First, RSEB, I want to recommend that you buy for your BH the book "No More Mr. Nice Guy" by Robert Glover. Some books have major insights, others are really good at weaving together the insights of others. This book is of the latter category.

In growing up under an overworked single mother, I did not learn how to be loving in a manly way. What I learned was a need for female 'approval', and the idea that if I worked hard and was a good guy that happiness would come. Not true. I too learned how to do everything myself - except learn how to figure out what *I* want. Most of my life has been about being in a role of addressing others' anxieties.

Your H is traumatized by the in-congruence of his view with reality. That is why his trauma of rejection is so great. Mommy issues. He is still looking to 'earn' nurturing.

You can love him through this. You can help him. It just may not make sense to stay in the M while doing so unless he can move forward.


I am not a marriage counselor. I chose "MC Jack" because I like the Music City. I did know what MC stood for on this site. Duh.

Posts: 863 | Registered: Mar 2012 | From: Mountain West
uncertainone
♀ Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 11:12 AM, September 19th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

So to answer your question no I do not want to stay in "our old M"...but I don't feel like giving him an ultimatum is the way

Nope, you just want to snipe at him from behind the bunker.

Look, I get you don't want to demonize him and honestly, you aren't. Your actions and behavior is just as unhealthy as his is.

You had a choice in dealing with his betrayal. Staying and sucking it up only works if you're bottomless or detached. You have to work through something not just create your own reality then get pissed when the genuine article makes a cameo from time to time.

He gets home and walks around the back yard for 45 minutes. You question him vanishing. He didn't vanish. You knew where he was and he's right. You could have joined him. Some people need to unwind when they come home. My ex did. I knew that. If I was busy with the boys I gave him that time, if not I grabbed a beer and joined him.

He asked you if you wanted to fool around. You said no. Then you said you were sure he'd take it as a rejection. Of course he would. It is. You do get that, right? Regardless of what your reasons are for it, "no" is a rejection. It's whole purpose is created to reject, negate, dismiss.

God, movie quotes today are bad. Keep channeling Pulp Fiction...English...well, you know.

I don't think either of you are working well through this. No demonizing him. You both have your roles. Problem is neither of you are working through this in a healthy way so again, boils down to choice.


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
RSEB
♀ Member
Member # 34728
Default  Posted: 11:27 AM, September 19th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thank you folks,

MC Jack, I will definitely look into that book, if only for myself, because in the past I have given my BH books recommended from SI after I have read them, and they just laid there. I do appreciate your words and your perspective and it was nice getting your words of wisdom AGAIN

Uncertainone

You had a choice in dealing with his betrayal. Staying and sucking it up only works if you're bottomless or detached. You have to work through something not just create your own reality then get pissed when the genuine article makes a cameo from time to time.

He gets home and walks around the back yard for 45 minutes. You question him vanishing.

He didn't vanish. You knew where he was and he's right. You could have joined him. Some people need to unwind when they come home. My ex did. I knew that. If I was busy with the boys I gave him that time, if not I grabbed a beer and joined him.

I was not pointing out him "vanishing" I was pointing out that he was intentionally keeping to himself that day to distance himself from me. He played that game all afternoon. I do appreciate your words and I see you "gave your H that time"...my point is when was YOUR time. I don't know about your situation, but I work as well. When I get home from work I get my kids, then right to HW, laundry and dinner and errands. I don't know the last time I "vanished" for 10 minutes, much less 45. That wasn't my point though, the point was he was choosing NOT to engage with me, after our upsetting talk/argument earlier in the week. Was he hurt that I rejected his sexual advances? Probably, most definitely, but why doesn't he did deeper and talk to me about it. That is the cycle that I wish would stop. I don't want to be that "nag" of a wife that is always starting the conversation, or looking to be "close". But where in the handbook does it say his need for sex trumps my need for emotional closeness. That is why I "rejected" him. Please one of his main complaints is that I never initiated before my A, which is absolutely true. So I knew that was important to him, so now I do, at least if not more then twice a week. When is he going to GET what I need and actually follow through???

Sorry, just venting now.


ME - FWW


Posts: 265 | Registered: Feb 2012
rachelc
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Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 11:39 AM, September 19th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

When I get home from work I get my kids, then right to HW, laundry and dinner and errands. I don't know the last time I "vanished" for 10 minutes, much less 45. That wasn't my point though, the point was he was choosing NOT to engage with me, after our upsetting talk/argument earlier in the week. Was he hurt that I rejected his sexual advances? Probably, most definitely, but why doesn't he did deeper and talk to me about it. That is the cycle that I wish would stop. I don't want to be that "nag" of a wife that is always starting the conversation, or looking to be "close". But where in the handbook does it say his need for sex trumps my need for emotional closeness. That is why I "rejected" him.

oh honey, he didn't offer you something emotional so you punished him by withholding sex. I SO understand this because it was the dance my husband and I did for years.
Of course that didn't work and look where we are now!

thing is, its my OWN personal failure for not telling him my needs. I NEED you to be here for me. You need some down time, I get that. Let's work together so we get both our needs met. If not, the game playing starts and it's unhealthy behavior by BOTH parties... it really is. not telling someone what you need and then punishing them for not providing it - that's fucking cruel. I know. I did it for years.


his Ddays: 2/10, 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me (WW/BS): 48
him: (BS/WH)52
4 kiddos in mid 20's

Me: I didn't sign up for this.
Him: you're already in this. All you can do is resign...


Posts: 4785 | Registered: Dec 2010
uncertainone
♀ Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 11:41 AM, September 19th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

when was YOUR time

Same time yours is. Let me ask you something. Why is his walking around the back yard HIS time and HW kids, homework, laundry and dinner not YOUR time? Because you feel these things HAVE to be done? They don't. They really don't. If you don't want to do them they do NOT have to be done and don't use the martyr way of, "well, if I don't do them they won't get done". I HATE that complete bullshit. No one died from a messy house or a day delay of laundry.

Fuck people, this is life. Our one shot at it. Think that's something you want on you tombstone? She kept a clean house???? Kids LOVE paper plates and eating out side. Hot dogs and a veggie take about 5 minutes.

Do things you enjoy or do the things you feel OCD about in ways you enjoy them. Wouldn't all those things need to be done if you were a single mom?

What do you think he'd to if you went out in the back yard and pulled him around the corner one eye on the door? Think he might not enjoy some adult time with you? Wouldn't you enjoy that? Tell him y'all can table the serious stuff for a little R & R? Don't even need a passport for that.


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
MC_Jack
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Member # 35016
Default  Posted: 11:57 AM, September 19th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

because in the past I have given my BH books recommended from SI after I have read them, and they just laid there.

The book has nothing to do with marriage as an institution nor infidelity. It is just to help a man figure out and get what he wants. Good luck.


I am not a marriage counselor. I chose "MC Jack" because I like the Music City. I did know what MC stood for on this site. Duh.

Posts: 863 | Registered: Mar 2012 | From: Mountain West
MC_Jack
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Member # 35016
Default  Posted: 12:00 PM, September 19th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

No one died from a messy house or a day delay of laundry.

Thank you.


I am not a marriage counselor. I chose "MC Jack" because I like the Music City. I did know what MC stood for on this site. Duh.

Posts: 863 | Registered: Mar 2012 | From: Mountain West
RSEB
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Member # 34728
Default  Posted: 12:02 PM, September 19th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

uncertainone

Why is his walking around the back yard HIS time and HW kids, homework, laundry and dinner not YOUR time? Because you feel these things HAVE to be done? They don't. They really don't. If you don't want to do them they do NOT have to be done and don't use the martyr way of, "well, if I don't do them they won't get done". I HATE that complete bullshit. No one died from a messy house or a day delay of laundry.

Fuck people, this is life. Our one shot at it. Think that's something you want on you tombstone? She kept a clean house???? Kids LOVE paper plates and eating out side. Hot dogs and a veggie take about 5 minutes.

That is SO not true...if I do not sit down with my son who is young, he will not do his HW properly. My dinners are by no means gourmet, and let me tell you handing my BH a hot dog for dinner?? That will be the day LOL. My BH does not do laundry, he does not clean, he does not do HW with the kids, so yes this is my life and my children's home life and experience is VERY important to me.

Would he have liked me grabbing him? Of course, but I was not in the mood. My only point was that he was not in the mood either to chat,so he went outside. A HUGE problem I have is that I have asked my BH to help me out more at dinner time etc. He always has an answer, he doesn't do this, he doesn't do that...the entire house (aside from constructing or fixing something) is MY responsibility. He has cooked me a Dinner ONE time in our entire 22 years together...ONE TIME. I do get resentful.

RachelC, I do know what you mean about playing games, but that night when I said no, I was not playing a game. My mind and heart were not in it, for christs sake, I was having the first time realization that my M might not make it...for the first time in our 4 year R, that was what I was facing that night...and still am.


ME - FWW


Posts: 265 | Registered: Feb 2012
MissesJai
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Member # 24849
Default  Posted: 12:21 PM, September 19th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I gotta ask - what do REALLY want? Do you REALLY, TRULY want to be married to this man? Your words are dripping with resentment. I can literally FEEL it. I don't see how any relationship, much less one that was rocked by infidelity by both sides, can be healthy with this much resentment, pain, and guilt surrounding it.


FWW - 41
I'm big on personal responsibility. Own your shit. ALL OF IT.

Posts: 5846 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: So Cal.....
uncertainone
♀ Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 12:32 PM, September 19th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I gotta ask - what do REALLY want? Do you REALLY, TRULY want to be married to this man? Your words are dripping with resentment. I can literally FEEL it.

Yep. RSEB, my ex didn't do any of that either. I did it because I actually am OCD about my house so that's not his problem. I didn't say hand your husband a hotdog. I said kids.

If I have things I feel the need to do and there are a lot of them I either prioritize or economize. You can absolutely do that.

Not in the mood? The four horseman would have to be riding for that for me, but I'm selfish and enjoy sex. I didn't need my ex to be a "good boy" showered, holding flowers and a love sonnet, while doing a load and dusting.

You asked for help. We gave you our views and some ideas.

You don't like them, or you husband, it seems. I don't live in your house. You do. Imagine the kind of house you'd like. See what is realistic and what isn't. That that's not may not be unrealistic forever, just not now. Can you take steps toward that? If so, sit down with your hubby and work on a plan. If not, work on an individual one. Action toward a goal can sometimes make all the difference in the world.


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
RSEB
♀ Member
Member # 34728
Default  Posted: 1:28 PM, September 19th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Now I am all deflated again. I am practically in tears sitting at my desk at work. My BH just texted me and told me he had to work late, which means he won't make it home in time to go to our MC session that I was SO hoping for. I was so hoping to have a good discussion with our C and let my BH realize without getting into an argument as to where our M stands. I am still planning on going alone so I can just vent and get some more clarity and guidance.

Just feeling SO let down.


ME - FWW


Posts: 265 | Registered: Feb 2012
tired girl
♀ Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 2:20 PM, September 19th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

We often say here on this site that when people show you who they are, believe them. He has shown you for a long time who he is, the problem is, you want to change it.

That change is completely up to him. You can't force it nor encourage it. Can you live with who he is today? If not, then either you change or you make a decision.


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 4767 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
badchoice
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Member # 35566
Default  Posted: 2:20 PM, September 19th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My BH does not do laundry, he does not clean, he does not do HW with the kids

So are you willing to accept that this is who he is, and will be? You can't change him, he has to change himself.

ETA: slight t/j for to show my example of this:
My BW and I were in MC about 4 years ago, before my 2nd A (after my EA with AP1 started up again), and MC said the following to her; "you see how BadC is, how he acts, how he communicates, who he is, you have to accept that is who he is. BW you have to ask yourself if this is making you happy, because you have to accept him as is".

I think i I posted about this in another post, but at the time, in my fucked up head, it was vindication for me. I thought "see MC says she HAS to accept me for the way I am."

BW heard something different. She heard "if the way things are are not acceptable, either choose to stay or choose to leave, but don't expect to get what she (BW) wants."

A few days later BW approached me saying she was thinking about a separation, I freaked out, she freaked out and got scared, we detached from each other more, and the rest is history.

I hope that makes sense.

What I am hearing is that you want your H to change, and he seems unwilling to. It's not that he is unable, we can all choose to change, he just seems unwilling to. From the outside looking in it looks likes everyone (including the kids) must me unhappy in that house.

I feel so badly for all of you involved. I empathize with all of you, but something has to happen to spark a change.

I guess a question for you to ask yourself is this; is this the type a M that you want to model for your children? When they get older and start a relationship, will they think this is an acceptable way to be?

Really hard questions to answer honestly, but they need to be answered by someone in that household.

I wish you so much luck.

eta;cross post with TG not trying to pile on.

[This message edited by badchoice at 2:22 PM, September 19th (Thursday)]


Me: fWH/BH 46

Separated transitioning to D


Posts: 725 | Registered: May 2012 | From: L.A.
Heath
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Member # 28992
Default  Posted: 8:11 PM, September 19th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Uncertainone:
No I didn't. I said it was different due to the level of commitment. Infidelity before a marriage could be a deal-breaker for some and they leave the relationship before it gets more serious. In a marriage, the same infidelity may not be a deal-breaker depending on how much commitment and time has been spent investing in the relationship. And it can work in reverse. Then children, property ownership, legalities, vows made to each other in public etc. add weight to the whole thing. Plus a LTA (6 years) is a very long time to be betraying someone so I think it is a bit dishonest to say that all infidelity is the same. It just isn't. Which is why there are different names. Eg. affairs, exit affairs, long term affairs etc. RGEB herself has stated that she doesn't feel his infidelity as being as significant. Perhaps it is though, because being so early in the relationship perhaps stunted the growth of the relationship so much that it never really got off the ground. I am just saying that it is different.

RSEB, I am really encouraged that you have invested so much in this relationship, even with little to no return. Shows your good intentions. Despite the obvious dysfunction in the marriage, you obviously care about BH.
I don't know what it is going to take for things to change. Like I said before, if it is going to work, it can't be built on the past. I can honestly understand why he has withdrawn. Grief also can take up to five years (sometimes longer) to process, so he may still be in grief. Withdrawing sex for a guy can be a pretty big statement. Perhaps it is a statement that needs to be made, perhaps not.

Looking back on what I have experienced, if I was to reconcile, I would have needed to see changes in WW's behaviour and character. Real character growth. I don't even see counselling as being the be all and end all of everything (I am a counsellor myself), because at the end of the day action is needed by the parties involved. There is only so much a counsellor can do, then it is up to the client to take some ownership and do something.
Retreats, holidays, moving house etc. are all distractions as well in my opinion. The fresh start you guys need if this marriage is to work is nothing external. You're not satisfied, he is not satisfied. I have seen marriages like this work, but it took a lot of effort by both individuals. Bit by bit things got a lot better. as others have said, change is up to him. I do believe you can spark that change. It might be through separation or it might be from an overwhelming dose of unconditional love and random acts of kindness. I am not sure which one will make the best impact. I am leaning to the latter, although sometimes it can backfire and he might take it all for granted.

I know a couple who divorced years ago, but they are the best of friends now and sit down and talk every day. They really are best friends. Remember he is not the enemy and neither are you. You are two normal people in a pretty big jam. How would you treat this situation if he was your best friend and not your marriage partner? Perhaps different, perhaps not. Just throwing some stuff out there. Keep anything you like and you can chuck out the rest.
Hope your day is getting better :)

[This message edited by Heath at 10:54 PM, September 19th (Thursday)]


"It's only after we've lost everything that we are free to do anything'.

Posts: 123 | Registered: Jul 2010 | From: Australia
uncertainone
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Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 8:41 PM, September 19th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I said it was different due to the level of commitment

Commitment - The state of being dedicated to a cause, activity, individual. How do you have a different level with that? You either are or you're not. Having a piece of paper changes nothing for many. They may not have one and are demolished by their partners choices. Hearing it's not as "serious" would be another barb thrown at a wound that's already bleeding out.


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
Heath
♂ Member
Member # 28992
Default  Posted: 9:41 PM, September 19th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

uncertainone:
I apologise for calling you dishonest. You have a different perspective to me, which is perfectly fine, but I had no right to call you dishonest. Apologies for being unnecessarily abrasive.

I actually agree with you that people can be equally committed to a relationship without there being a piece of paper telling them that they are married. Becoming a married man myself made me more committed to my wife. I took on more responsibility and treated the situation with more gravity. I understand everyone is not the same. Cheating is incredibly painful regardless.

I do stand by my opinion in this individual case. RSEB also sees BH's cheating prior to the marriage as less impacting which was also my assessment of the situation. But in my second post to RSEB I said that it is possible that it could have been more damaging as it happened in the foundational stages of the relationship (not in those exact words but the same idea).


"It's only after we've lost everything that we are free to do anything'.

Posts: 123 | Registered: Jul 2010 | From: Australia
heforgotme
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Member # 38391
Default  Posted: 8:20 AM, September 23rd (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I am still planning on going alone so I can just vent and get some more clarity and guidance.

How did it go????


D-Day 11/15/12
5 month PA
Married 20 years, 3 kids
All good is hard. All evil is easy. Dying, losing, cheating, and mediocrity is easy. Stay away from easy.
- Scott Alexander
It was the day I thought I'd never get through - Daughtry

Posts: 1077 | Registered: Feb 2013 | From: FL
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