Cheating Hurt by Infidelity
Betrayal Wayward Donations lying
Welcome

Forums

Guidelines

Find a Local Counselor

The Healing Library

Media

Contact Us
lies
cover
In Association with Amazon.com
Support
Infidelity -
-
Find a Local Couselor
You are not logged in. Login here or register.
[Register]
Newest Member: amanda123 (43207)

I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: Betrayed Men - Part 14
aesir
♂ Member
Member # 17210
Default  Posted: 4:24 AM, September 25th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I dunno, I think evolution may have something to do with it. Evolution doesn't really have a plan, it's just about trying out different variations and seeing what really works, and the process is brutal.

We most often talk about evolution in terms of the outcome, improving the breed and such, as though it worked like the Bene Gesserit in Dune, manipulating bloodlines to eventually produce the Kwisatz Haderach. In fact, for every improvement that results in people being a little faster, smarter, stronger, more efficient... there are a million diseases that come up. Perhaps like attracts like to produce more of the same and if there is an advantage they eventually become dominant, while if there is a problem they are eventually eliminated. The whole alpha vs. beta meme and which one is superior is an arbitrary value judgement based on an artificial grouping that really doesn't cover the whole spectrum of human possibilities. What good is an alpha in a world without betas? What about the lone wolf that needs no leader and seeks no followers?

Attempting to recreate and thereby correct past traumas may be an evolutionary pursuit that strengthens those who are successful (and passes the success along to their offspring), while slowly eliminating the failures. I don't think people necessarily set out to try and create improved offspring, I think they try to recreate themselves as closely as possible in the vain hope that they are the intended result.


Your mileage may vary... in accordance with the prophecy.

Do not back up. Severe tire damage.


Posts: 14924 | Registered: Nov 2007 | From: Winnipeg
noescape
♂ Member
Member # 34888
Default  Posted: 4:26 AM, September 25th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Best to leave the wormholes and time travel discussion to the Betrayed Theoretical Physicists thread.

Agreed...

...now about that mind wipe though...


Posts: 739 | Registered: Feb 2012
jjct
♂ Member
Member # 17484
Default  Posted: 7:09 AM, September 25th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Perhaps like attracts like

I think it was sociology, eons ago, but-
there's no "perhaps".
I remember the textbook showing pictures of couples that looked alike, even dogs and owners looking alike...


Posts: 6012 | Registered: Dec 2007 | From: texas
StillGoing
♂ Member
Member # 28571
Default  Posted: 8:02 AM, September 25th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Stillgoing, have you read Sperm Wars? Basically humans have several reproductive strategies, some more successful than others.

What happens in this case is not that the woman would have only the bad boy's babies and let the provider raise them. She'll want to have babies with both to have diversity.

Incidentally the book says that monogamy is the best strategy giving it is the predominant one. Diversity would be desired by both man and woman though but that would risk the family so you can't get caught if you do it. Sad reading...

I have not read it but I remember looking into it and refreshing my memory, iirc most of his hypothesis have been debunked and things like "KAMIKAZEE CUM" have not been demonstrated as an actual, well, real thing. The problem with what he puts forward is that the data he used was not actually tested AFAIK and when people tried to actually replicate his findings they just weren't there.

It sounded like a funny book but not anything that contains real science.


“Fate is a fickle bitch who dotes on irony.”

Posts: 7107 | Registered: May 2010 | From: USA
StillGoing
♂ Member
Member # 28571
Default  Posted: 8:08 AM, September 25th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I dunno, I think evolution may have something to do with it. Evolution doesn't really have a plan, it's just about trying out different variations and seeing what really works, and the process is brutal.

We most often talk about evolution in terms of the outcome, improving the breed and such, as though it worked like the Bene Gesserit in Dune, manipulating bloodlines to eventually produce the Kwisatz Haderach. In fact, for every improvement that results in people being a little faster, smarter, stronger, more efficient... there are a million diseases that come up. Perhaps like attracts like to produce more of the same and if there is an advantage they eventually become dominant, while if there is a problem they are eventually eliminated. The whole alpha vs. beta meme and which one is superior is an arbitrary value judgement based on an artificial grouping that really doesn't cover the whole spectrum of human possibilities. What good is an alpha in a world without betas? What about the lone wolf that needs no leader and seeks no followers?

Attempting to recreate and thereby correct past traumas may be an evolutionary pursuit that strengthens those who are successful (and passes the success along to their offspring), while slowly eliminating the failures. I don't think people necessarily set out to try and create improved offspring, I think they try to recreate themselves as closely as possible in the vain hope that they are the intended result.

This is a really good point. There is a difference between Evolution and Eugenics. Evolution is messy, stupid and inefficient. Eugenics isn't a genetically defined trait.

I read a really cool book called The Nueroscience of Magic - one of the things I found interesting was how people see one another as attractive. I can't find my copy atm but one of the things I recall (I think) had to do with symmetry of features and how since more symmetrical features meant less work on the part of the brain it was easier on the eyes, so to speak. I may not be remembering this right and that could be total confabulation. I need to find that damn book again.


“Fate is a fickle bitch who dotes on irony.”

Posts: 7107 | Registered: May 2010 | From: USA
StillGoing
♂ Member
Member # 28571
Default  Posted: 8:12 AM, September 25th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I think it was sociology, eons ago, but-
there's no "perhaps".
I remember the textbook showing pictures of couples that looked alike, even dogs and owners looking alike...

I think it would be a really cool social experiment to follow a bunch of different couples over the course of their relationships to establish whether or not like attracts like or diverse becomes similar over time. As in, are people really actually similar in general as couples, or do their tastes in life slowly come into parallel after lengthy exposure?

Does anybody know if there was a study like that? There must have been somewhere. I will go hunting around for that.


“Fate is a fickle bitch who dotes on irony.”

Posts: 7107 | Registered: May 2010 | From: USA
jjct
♂ Member
Member # 17484
Default  Posted: 9:23 AM, September 25th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Symmetry of features is the one thing, I think the only thing, that defines physical "beauty" - regardless of culture.
It signifies balanced neuro development in the possessor of such symmetry as well, possibly the prime trigger of the desire to breed with such.

Posts: 6012 | Registered: Dec 2007 | From: texas
Tred
♂ Member
Member # 34086
Default  Posted: 9:27 AM, September 25th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I think I need to change my tagline to "Being asymmetrical sucks...".


Married: 16 years (14 @JFO)
D-Day: 11/09/11
"Ohhhhh...shut up Tred!" - NOT the official SI motto (DS)

Posts: 3303 | Registered: Dec 2011
Sal1995
♂ Member
Member # 39099
Default  Posted: 9:36 AM, September 25th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Great post, VD2012.


Me-45
WW-42
DDay 2/17/13, 10 month PA/EA
Final NC late Feb. '13
M - 18 years, together 19+
4 children

Reconciled


Posts: 1028 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Texas
ontheslope
♂ Member
Member # 40574
Default  Posted: 9:48 AM, September 25th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

As in, are people really actually similar in general as couples, or do their tastes in life slowly come into parallel after lengthy exposure?

Exact opposite - at least in my situation (and from my experience with other couples). I think it is more common for long term couples to grow apart, not together, when it comes to tastes, direction, preferences, etc....

Everyone changes. You meet someone and decide to be their SO because you have things in common. I think it wrong to expect that you will only continue to find MORE things in common over time. Isn't the more realistic scenario that you will each start to discover new things that you like, and that you'll each end up with a different set of 'new' things?


Me: BH, 35
Her: WW, 36
Two girls 7 & 10
Married 12 years
Dday: July, 2009

She wants answers... I'm still trying to figure out what the questions are.


Posts: 255 | Registered: Sep 2013 | From: Maine, USA
RyeBread
♂ Member
Member # 37437
Default  Posted: 10:26 AM, September 25th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Funny thing about likes attract likes. I can't tell you how many times when meeting people for the first time they have asked if STBX and I are siblings, not knowing we were married. We have fairly similar interests too.

But in the end I am learning, for me, I don't know that similar interests is really that important to me. I can have similar interests as someone but we can be very oposite in other areas. I think similar morals and values are the most important. As well as a general kindness and respect for people. All the other hollywood romantic fantasies of couples doing everything together is unhealthy in my opinion.

I think having your own personal interests outside of your spouse is required for a sane healthy marriage. You don't lose who you are and it keeps the other spouse thinking of you as an individual too.


Let him that would move the world first move himself. - Socrates

Posts: 957 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: Midwest
StillGoing
♂ Member
Member # 28571
Default  Posted: 10:33 AM, September 25th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Everyone changes. You meet someone and decide to be their SO because you have things in common. I think it wrong to expect that you will only continue to find MORE things in common over time. Isn't the more realistic scenario that you will each start to discover new things that you like, and that you'll each end up with a different set of 'new' things?

Hm, maybe. Speaking from my own anecdotal experiences, at 16 I did not like any music that wasn't metal or hard rock (I did like the creepy 'classical' music but, w/e), held certain religious views, had a certain preference when it came to books, so on. When I met my wife at that age and spent more time with her as years went by my taste in music expanded to include a lot of her preferences - as hers did mine also - we exchanged new concepts and ideas and our worldviews changed over time as well as more mundane interests like book genres.

I suppose to think about it that it wasn't so much becoming more or less similar but influencing one another as we went through the natural growing process. I think you are right that each person will discover an interest in new things, and as part of that process of growing together those interests are shared with each other and either taken on as mutual interests or set in as personal hobbies.

They're things that would be there whether or not you are in a relationship.. I guess that it's really just about having someone to share those experiences with. I don't think that mutual interest or lack thereof really signifies a growing intimacy or distance, thinking on it some now.

eta:

Got lost in there - I think this is a good illustration of how people lose some of their feelings of individuality, by placing the interests and opinions of their spouse as the equal to their own when it comes to these things, rather than where they began as factors of thought provoking influence.

[This message edited by StillGoing at 10:35 AM, September 25th (Wednesday)]


“Fate is a fickle bitch who dotes on irony.”

Posts: 7107 | Registered: May 2010 | From: USA
HoldingTogether
♂ Member
Member # 29429
Default  Posted: 11:28 AM, September 25th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

These days this thread seems to move too quickly for me to chime in with much of anything. That being said I want to call back to something.

Sal1995, this:

And that's the difference between me and OM. I got her when she was young, hopeful and selective. He got her when she was middle-aged, depressed, unhappy with her appearance, and experiencing a life change crisis. I think my wife is still a beauty, but she's 41, not 21. There's some scar tissue, some stretch marks...gravity is beginning to take its toll. That weighs on a woman, so they are especially vulnerable to someone who lays it on thick about how hot they are. At 21 they know they're hot. He didn't stand a chance when she was a challenge.


Has got to be one of the most helpful things I've read in a while. And that's really saying something when it comes to this forum.

It's funny because, after 3 plus years of this mess, you might think I wouldn't need to read that sort of thing in order to lighten my load. You'd think I'd have ideas like that so ingrained into my thought processes that my only response would be a big "Well that's only obvious". You would think that that sort of thing would just go without saying...

You might think that. I certainly wish that were the case, but it simply isn't. I know all of the standards: It wasn't about anything lacking in me, it was about something lacking in them. It wasn't about OM being, more attractive than me, smarter than me, more alpha than me etc. I know all of those things, I can quote them by rote. But even still, even 3 plus years into a successful R, I still sometimes struggle with feeling these things. With knowing them as more than some surface level fact but rather as a bone deep, ingrained certainty.

It's sometimes feels as though my FWW's A is like some particularly stubborn and resistant virus. I find powerful and effective strategies for combating it, for treating the symptoms and beating it back, but just when I think I may finally have it licked, that fucker mutates and finds some new way to attack me through my own thoughts. Sometimes when that shit happens all the ideas and thoughts I have built and cultivated to combat it become ineffective for a short time and I need something new to help me fix my perspective. I've got a whole virtual drug cocktail of mental "antibiotics" that help me fight that shit off time and time again, and they are all working pretty well. At least well enough anyway. I am not better by any means, but I am doing better every damn day.

So, that stuff you wrote there? That doesn't necessarily solve anything but it's helping me today. So thanks for that man. Gonna add that little gem to my mental treatment regimen cause every little bit helps. Hopefully one day I might find the right combination of thoughts and ideas to kill that fucker off once and for all. Till then I'm just fighting the good fight.

Your words are helping with that today, so thank you for that.

HT


Me:BH 41
Her:FWW40(Walkinoneggshellz)
2 Beautiful little girls 13&10
Dday: 7/24/10 1yr EA turned 5 monthPA
"I gotta hole in me now... I got a scar I can talk about."

Posts: 338 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: New Life
Razor
♂ Member
Member # 16345
Default  Posted: 12:09 PM, September 25th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I know all of the standards: It wasn't about anything lacking in me, it was about something lacking in them. It wasn't about OM being, more attractive than me, smarter than me, more alpha than me etc. I know all of those things, I can quote them by rote. But even still, even 3 plus years into a successful R, I still sometimes struggle with feeling these things. With knowing them as more than some surface level fact but rather as a bone deep, ingrained certainty.

And that in a nutshell is the bitch of our mutual situation isnt it? You can know one thing in your head but your heart is screaming something else.

I wish I had a answer to that. I wish there were a way to integrate the 2, head and heart. Its been more years than I care to mention since Dday for me and yet I still struggle with this.

Hell Im here arent I? If the 2 were together and I were really healed then SI would be long in my rear view mirror.

I think of WW LTA every fucking day. It isnt like Im torturing myself. Its just there. Those doubts. My head telling me one thing but my heart knowing its another.


Forgive and forget = Relive and regret.


Posts: 3084 | Registered: Sep 2007
aesir
♂ Member
Member # 17210
Default  Posted: 12:16 PM, September 25th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

But in the end I am learning, for me, I don't know that similar interests is really that important to me. I can have similar interests as someone but we can be very oposite in other areas. I think similar morals and values are the most important. As well as a general kindness and respect for people. All the other hollywood romantic fantasies of couples doing everything together is unhealthy in my opinion.

I would add a similar outlook on life as well. Someone who looks for security vs. someone who looks for exciting and new, and that trait could be broken down into different areas as well, financial vs. hobbies for example.

A shared love of horsepower and harmless destruction would improve any relationship though.


Your mileage may vary... in accordance with the prophecy.

Do not back up. Severe tire damage.


Posts: 14924 | Registered: Nov 2007 | From: Winnipeg
ontheslope
♂ Member
Member # 40574
Default  Posted: 12:26 PM, September 25th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Make room in the boat, Razor.

That's my biggest struggle. I KNOW that it will always be there. The act was committed, and unless they have some sort of miracle drug that erases your memory, it will always have a spot in my head, stalking me, coming out just when I thought I'd gotten past it. I said this in BM Part 13 - my WW will ALWAYS be the woman who cheated on me, who laid on her back and opened her legs for another guy. How do you live with that knowledge, and on top of that, how do you TRULY R, deep in your heart. I know I'll never forget... and I'm not sure that I can ever truly forgive.

My IC tells me I rationalize things too much - that I intellectualize things too much. And I know I do - I roll things over in my head and I somehow justify to myself that the stability that my W and I have right now is worth me staying. But man...if I can truly never forgive or forget, how do her and I ever really move on?

And that's the difference between me and OM. I got her when she was young, hopeful and selective. He got her when she was middle-aged, depressed, unhappy with her appearance, and experiencing a life change crisis. I think my wife is still a beauty, but she's 41, not 21. There's some scar tissue, some stretch marks...gravity is beginning to take its toll. That weighs on a woman, so they are especially vulnerable to someone who lays it on thick about how hot they are. At 21 they know they're hot. He didn't stand a chance when she was a challenge.

This was very well said, but it is empty consolation for me. I wish it wasn't, but in the end it didn't matter that she chose me young and him later on - she still took the vows that we made and broke them... I'm starting to think she broke me in the process.

I haven't felt like myself in 4 years. And I need to get me back. But I don't know if I can be me with her always there as a reminder of what she did, of the betrayal of everything that I held dear.


Me: BH, 35
Her: WW, 36
Two girls 7 & 10
Married 12 years
Dday: July, 2009

She wants answers... I'm still trying to figure out what the questions are.


Posts: 255 | Registered: Sep 2013 | From: Maine, USA
Mr. Kite
♂ Member
Member # 28840
Default  Posted: 12:46 PM, September 25th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

The act was committed, and unless they have some sort of miracle drug that erases your memory, it will always have a spot in my head, stalking me, coming out just when I thought I'd gotten past it.

There is research being conducted to erase painful memories.

http://www.wired.com/magazine/2012/02/ff_forgettingpill/all/

http://www.medicaldaily.com/bad-memories-can-be-erased-potential-breakthrough-treating-depression-and-ptsd-240932

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/memory-medic/201210/behavioral-therapy-erases-bad-memories

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/MindMoodNews/painful-memories-erasable/story?id=17170839


Posts: 900 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Mid-Atlantic
5454real
♂ Member
Member # 37455
Default  Posted: 12:54 PM, September 25th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

OTS, that brings up the question I've been rolling around in my mind for the last few days. ultimately, what is the difference between acceptance and rug sweeping?

and of course the other question,
could we fill a pumpkin with a liquid?


BH 50, WW 41
DS 23(Mine),SD 21,SS 19(Hers),DS 8 Ours, DGS 2 1/2
D=Day #1 5/04EA (Rugswept)
D-Day #2 3/10/12, TT til 3/13/12
Married 10yrs
“I have no love for a friend who loves in words alone.”
― Sophocles, Antigone

Posts: 2068 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: midwest
aesir
♂ Member
Member # 17210
Default  Posted: 1:13 PM, September 25th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

...now about that mind wipe though...

unless they have some sort of miracle drug that erases your memory, it will always have a spot in my head

There is research being conducted to erase painful memories.
Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it. Then again, those who rewrite history intend to repeat it.

I don't think you could ever just attack the one painful memory. This isn't a car accident or bridge collapse that you can just forget. There are all kinds of lessons and experiences tied to dealing with this. How could your mind construct an explanation for everything you have learned and experienced on SI and elsewhere without also the knowledge of the affair?

OTS, that brings up the question I've been rolling around in my mind for the last few days. ultimately, what is the difference between acceptance and rug sweeping?
In appearance, probably very little. In practice everything. Acceptance is fully aware of what happened and the ramifications, acknowledges it, and moves on with this information. Rugsweeping pretends it doesn't exist, so there is nothing to see, no lesson to learn, no changes to make.

and of course the other question,
could we fill a pumpkin with a liquid?
Yes, but it will require more force to launch, and the force will place hoop stresses on the pumpkin body perpendicular to the acceleration vector of the pumpkin making the pumpkin less able to withstand the launch forces, but a much more dramatic splat on impact. Particularly if the liquid is kerosene and the pumpkin is wrapped in a burlap sack for wadding and the sack is set on fire just before launch.


Your mileage may vary... in accordance with the prophecy.

Do not back up. Severe tire damage.


Posts: 14924 | Registered: Nov 2007 | From: Winnipeg
noescape
♂ Member
Member # 34888
Default  Posted: 1:14 PM, September 25th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

This was very well said, but it is empty consolation for me.

Sadly the same here, but for different reasons. WINO was 21 when we married, it took her less than 2 years to start her string of As, which, for all I know, lasted for 6 years till DDay (and maybe even a bit after). There's no consolation in knowing that there were a hundred things denied to me as her husband which were freely shared with others (how many 'others', Which 'things', I'll probably never know). Didn't mean to be a downer but I guess we've all got our personal hells to live through here.

Posts: 739 | Registered: Feb 2012
Topic Posts: 1000
Pages: 1 · 2 · 3 · 4 · 5 · 6 · 7 · 8 · 9 · 10 · 11 · 12 · 13 · 14 · 15 · 16 · 17 · 18 · 19 · 20 · 21 · 22 · 23 · 24 · 25 · 26 · 27 · 28 · 29 · 30 · 31 · 32 · 33 · 34 · 35 · 36 · 37 · 38 · 39 · 40 · 41 · 42 · 43 · 44 · 45 · 46 · 47 · 48 · 49 · 50

Return to Forum: I Can Relate This Topic is Full
adultry
Go to :
madness  
© 2002 - 2014 SurvivingInfidelity.com. All Rights Reserved.