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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: Betrayed Men - Part 14
Tred
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Default  Posted: 10:48 AM, October 9th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Me validating my STBXW meant nothing but a stranger, other family member, or someone that didn't know how fuckedup she was validating her or complimenting her got big reactions.

Ain't that the truth...


Married: 16 years (14 @JFO)
D-Day: 11/09/11
"Ohhhhh...shut up Tred!" - NOT the official SI motto (DS)

Posts: 3303 | Registered: Dec 2011
Razor
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Member # 16345
Default  Posted: 11:09 AM, October 9th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Me validating my STBXW meant nothing but a stranger, other family member, or someone that didn't know how fuckedup she was validating her or complimenting her got big reactions.

I asked WW about this once. She said that she knew I was giving her validation but it was discounted because I HAD to do that because we were married. Validation from a stranger then carried more weight and value.


Forgive and forget = Relive and regret.


Posts: 3086 | Registered: Sep 2007
Razor
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Member # 16345
Default  Posted: 11:12 AM, October 9th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

It absolutely was. The problem is that a WW is an emotional blackhole. We have thrown anything and everything in there and it gets pulverized like it never existed. To me, after dday, the taker WW has to switch to being the giver for a while to make some amends for the damage they've done. They just aren't familiar with that role. That or they aren't capable of it. Empathy escapes them.

Some of this comes down to the rituals of courtship IMO.

When we are dating we men pursue and women run just fast enough so we put in effort to catch them. (that is my slanted and probably wrong POV)

BUT when we need them to work for our attention they dont know how to do that because they have never had to do it before.

Just my opinion. YMMV


Forgive and forget = Relive and regret.


Posts: 3086 | Registered: Sep 2007
RyeBread
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Member # 37437
Default  Posted: 11:16 AM, October 9th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

If I told her she looked nice today or I appreciated something she did, she didn't believe me.

A-to-the-menz.

I would compliment her all the time. For some reason they were brushed off or I was given the 3rd degree as if I didn't mean it. But if someone else said something nice to WW then she was all gushy for the next couple days. After a while I only did it to avoid the inevitable emotional hurricane that occured if I didn't. I'm talking about episodes where WW was throwing things, physically lashing out at me, calling names, etc. I would walk away wondering "what the hell just happened?, All because I didn't tell her she looked nice?". Took her A for things to really start clicking and for me to realize what kind of person I was really dealing with. Now I instantly recognize when she is fishing for compliments or doing things to be noticed and recognized. She needs lots and lots of affirmation from people that I just can't do, or keep up with anymore. I'd rather use my affirmations on myself at this point. I need them after the A.


Let him that would move the world first move himself. - Socrates

Posts: 957 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: Midwest
RyeBread
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Member # 37437
Default  Posted: 11:28 AM, October 9th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Some of this comes down to the rituals of courtship IMO.

I agree with that too. I think we treat courting like some kind of contest where we think we win something(the girl) in the end if we do it right. I've been guilty of that. But why have we allowed ourselves as men to be used like that? Not all women do that either. Maybe it says more about me than the courting game I guess.

Thing is, all we do is perpetuate the idea of her being the prize/princess when winning her is the dynamic. Aren't we a prize in our own right? Shouldn't she be trying to win us over? And why do we continue to do it that way? To me it's stupid and selfish from both sides. Although it may mean I am perpetually single since I won't play the recognized game by the accepted rules anymore, but oh well. At least I won't get cheated on again I suppose.

Should probably stop my rambling.


Let him that would move the world first move himself. - Socrates

Posts: 957 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: Midwest
numb&dumb
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Member # 28542
Default  Posted: 11:48 AM, October 9th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Ok so I calmed down . . .some.

In fairness, sometimes there are M issues that need to be addressed. From both sides. Apart from the A chances are the BH has things about the M that will need to addressed too. Until the trauma from the A is dealt with, nothing else seems as important. Since we did not D them or have an A of our own, we were probably willing to overlook those things as we assumed they overlooked our faults. Nobody is perfect and I think almost everyone knows that. Another problem is that so many of us endured re-writing of martial history. Any M problems brought up, even thought they may be legitimate, are not taken at face value.

After lying and essentially convincing themselves by "creating" perceived slights they become the victim of a creditability problem with us. Talk is cheap and anyone who values themselves won't take "the word," or someone that abused that social norm in close relationships.

Honestly, if the situation were different would they just immediately believe someone who up until very recently continued to lie ?

Even when the truth comes out, there is no way of validating that we, now, have the truth. Anything that can be verified independently is cast into two categories: a lie or a highly suspect truth.

Only once trust has been built again does their M problems pass the smell test.

Sometimes a WW has to be shown that there is something there to work. Sure. It takes a huge leap of faith for any BS to not immediately rush to D. Because the trauma runs so deep, just being there is all that can be mustered at that time. By proxy a BH tells his WW, by their actions, that they are willing to at least give it a chance. We made our leap of faith by doing this. A WS needs to make theirs by working through the A stuff first. If the trauma of the A for the BS does not get addressed, it ultimately spells doom for the M and any M issues are moot. The person who you damaged deserves to approach the M from a less wounded and therefore more equal space. I get WW have their own pain, but unless you have been betrayed there are no words to describe how much a DDay can beat you down. In renegotiation, if your partner is compromised, it is taking advantage of them. It may seem like we paint them as the bad guy. Yes. After Dday, to us, they are the bad guy. Our enemy, someone who does not share our best interests. Call it what you will, but someone who is in only for themselves (either through dysfunction or plain old selfishness) is the villain to any objective reader.

I understand this is long, but bear with me.

Now in some cases the WW needs to be given an ultimatum to force a direction. Even then, it takes some time for a WW to come to terms with the horrible things they have done. As others have said, a lifetime of dysfunction, compartmentalization, et al doesn't go away overnight.

The BH has a choice to decide if it is worth the risk. Even a R'd M requires a periodic check in to determine if it is worth continuing. That is healthy. Evaluating your options is never a bad thing. Despite what values we hold, our new value needs to be that Dday made the M optional. If you want it, you have to weigh what is best for you (and sometimes kids). This experience changes a BH. He becomes less naive, more sure of himself and hopefully realizes he doesn't need anybody. If after all is said and done, he is still there it means he wants the M to work (it may be on a hidden level). He may say different things to test your resolve or loyalty, but if he is there he has made his choice. Staying extends a hand, it is up to the WW to decide where it goes from there.

Some BH even show tremendous patience, but that patience eventually runs out. The end of the M is not the end of the world. Some people are worth the risk and some are not. Each of us has to make that highly personal decision each and every day after DDay. You call it R or M, but it leaves us with the same choices and responsibilities to make.

You get what you put in, if you put forward nothing, you get nothing in return. It comes to how much you want in return and how much you are willing to put in.

FWIW MCs still suck.


Me-35 her-35

DS 1, DD 6
Dday 8/31/11. ONS that occurred 3 years earlier. Lied to for 3 years.

Every truth comes to light in a long enough timeline.


Posts: 2457 | Registered: May 2010
DefiledRage
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Member # 39292
Default  Posted: 12:53 PM, October 9th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

So much shit going on right now having a hard time keeping up with you guys.

Empathy escapes them.

This frightens the shit out of me. If they don't find empathy for what they have done to others (me, our kids, his wife, his kids) with their selfish acts, what happens someday when they (WW) are down needing some rainbow vibes to lift them up. They're going to go find some cock to suck to fill that hole. Empathy is the greatest tool one has for not committing horrendous acts. Not something thats easily taught or found if you don't naturally posses it. IDK what do you guys think, is empathy even something that CAN be learned and obtained later in life or is that just a pipe dream I'm hoping for? Because my WW needs to learn a greater understanding of empathy or R isn't going to work.

Going back to the whole haircut massage thing, reminded me of this...

I think it moved. I can't be sure, but I perceived a move.
It could have been a shift.
This wasn't a shift, it was a move.


Me:35 WW:34 M:13yrs
3 young children
Dday 1 EA 7/8/2010
Dday 2 PA 3/1/2013 same OMM for 4yrs

Mister rabbit says, "A moment of realization is worth a thousand prayers."


Posts: 426 | Registered: May 2013 | From: Two blocks from south shit and west hell
nomoreplease
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Member # 32755
Default  Posted: 12:59 PM, October 9th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Me validating my STBXW meant nothing but a stranger, other family member, or someone that didn't know how fucked up she was validating her or complimenting her got big reactions. If I told her she looked nice today or I appreciated something she did, she didn't believe me. Let OM or a stranger do it and it's the best thing since sliced bread.
My take on this is that the strangers validation is better because the WW believes that the person they’ve presented themselves as is worthy of the validation. The more someone knows the ‘real them’ the less they believe the validation because deep down they don’t believe it about themselves (and this is amplified 1000X during or shortly after an A).

it was discounted because I HAD to do that because we were married.
This is just rationalization to align their feelings with reality without it being their own deep seated issues that are the problem.

[This message edited by nomoreplease at 1:00 PM, October 9th (Wednesday)]


'one walks away saying "I fought to save God's ideal," and the other must always admit, "I fought to destroy God's ideal!"'

Posts: 343 | Registered: Jul 2011
RyeBread
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Member # 37437
Default  Posted: 1:06 PM, October 9th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hilarious pic DR.

is empathy even something that CAN be learned and obtained later in life or is that just a pipe dream I'm hoping for?

I think so. There was a period in my life where I had little to no empathy for others. I was a very sad hurt person deep down inside. I basically had a victim mentallity. I learned to take more responsibility for my own actions, feelings, and thoughts. That allowed me to be more empathetic towards others because I wasn't so focused on how I felt. Very wayward thinking at the time. I fought my way out of that "stinkin thinkin". I have faith that people can change. Otherwise I couldn't have changed and I know I have.


Let him that would move the world first move himself. - Socrates

Posts: 957 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: Midwest
Mr. Kite
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Member # 28840
Default  Posted: 1:25 PM, October 9th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

If you get the i'm not happy speech or I need something else speech or something is missing speech then it's confirmation of the gaping blackhole in your WS. No matter what you do it will never be enough.

WW is an excuse machine. Whatever I ask of her, she comes up with an excuse for why she didn't or won't do it.

Me: tell me the truth.
Her: If I told you the truth, you wouldn't believe me anyway.

Me: Why didn't you call?
Her: Because I didn't think you wanted to talk to me anyway.

Me: Why did you cheat on me?
Her: Because I thought the marriage was over.

Me: Why don't you go back to counseling and meds?
Her: Because it didn't do me any good the first few times I tried it.

I could go on and on, from the minor issues to the major ones, but you get the point. It's like playing chess or checkers with someone and every move you make is blocked by an excuse. My solution? Whenever I hear an excuse pop out of her mouth, I call her on it and the conversation is over.

This frightens the shit out of me. If they don't find empathy for what they have done to others (me, our kids, his wife, his kids) with their selfish acts, what happens someday when they (WW) are down needing some rainbow vibes to lift them up. They're going to go find some cock to suck to fill that hole. Empathy is the greatest tool one has for not committing horrendous acts. Not something thats easily taught or found if you don't naturally posses it. IDK what do you guys think, is empathy even something that CAN be learned and obtained later in life or is that just a pipe dream I'm hoping for? Because my WW needs to learn a greater understanding of empathy or R isn't going to work.

Empathy - the ability to understand and share the feelings of another.

If my understanding of the above definition is correct, then empathy and sympathy are two different things. Unless someone has been betrayed by their husband or wife, how can that person understand the particular pain that they have inflicted on someone else? Mrs. Kite has never been cheated on or betrayed by either myself or her ex-husband or anyone else - this is according to her.

Throughout this long ordeal I've tried to explain my feelings to her but she usually looks at me like I'm speaking a foreign language. SI is a place where everyone speaks the same language and is able to be empathetic because we are bonded by similar experiences. I no longer expect that from WW.


Posts: 900 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Mid-Atlantic
DefiledRage
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Member # 39292
Default  Posted: 1:48 PM, October 9th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

empathy and sympathy are two different things

That's my understanding as well.
I can sympathizes when something bad happens to someone else by saying yeah that sucks, all the while thinking glad it wasn't me. Not much though is put into how that person might actually be feeling. Its a superficial understanding of what someone is going through.
Empathy on the other hand to me means something much deeper. Its that understanding. It that attempt to actually FEEL the pain of others. the proverbial "put yourself in their shoes."

My ww can see the pain in my face. She can look at me and see that I'm hurting and provide nothing but I'm sorry your sad, you'll figure it out and get over it eventually. Sadly I think that is what a lot of us get after dday. Seems like a shallow acknowledgement to me and fuck that! I don't need her sympathy, she can keep that shit to herself.

Having empathy requires her to contemplate what it really feels like to be in so much pain. Requires some introspection, introspection that waywards seems to always try to run from. To understand my pain, to feel my pain, to grok my pain! That deep empathy is that weight that will tip the scales for me to feel a little safe that she won't repeat those past destructive actions.

[This message edited by DefiledRage at 1:53 PM, October 9th (Wednesday)]


Me:35 WW:34 M:13yrs
3 young children
Dday 1 EA 7/8/2010
Dday 2 PA 3/1/2013 same OMM for 4yrs

Mister rabbit says, "A moment of realization is worth a thousand prayers."


Posts: 426 | Registered: May 2013 | From: Two blocks from south shit and west hell
Tred
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Member # 34086
Default  Posted: 2:02 PM, October 9th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Menz, we grok . Sometimes I wish I didn't understand that, and not because I read Heinlein.


Married: 16 years (14 @JFO)
D-Day: 11/09/11
"Ohhhhh...shut up Tred!" - NOT the official SI motto (DS)

Posts: 3303 | Registered: Dec 2011
h0peless
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Member # 36697
Default  Posted: 2:22 PM, October 9th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Me validating my STBXW meant nothing but a stranger, other family member, or someone that didn't know how fuckedup she was validating her or complimenting her got big reactions.

This happened with mine in a number of ways.

1. New Dad bought her a Firefly keychain was "so sweet" for going out of his way to get her something like that. She really liked it. I didn't do sweet things like that for her.

The previous Christmas, I had bought her a $800 DSLR because she had always wanted one. I bought her a $200 lens for the stupid thing for her birthday, three weeks before Dday. In April, three months before Dday, I got her the laptop that she really wanted, which she used to start an EA online with some other POSER. But the keychain was so fucking sweet.

I didn't buy her gifts because I had to. I didn't even do it for any other reason that the fact that I enjoyed doing it. It hurt to realize that she didn't appreciate them from me but the smallest, shittiest little trinket from New Dad meant the world.

2. I told her she was beautiful every day. She had gained a few pounds and decided that I really didn't mean it and was just saying it because as her husband, I was obligated to. When her New Dad told her the same thing, it made her black little heart go pitter patter. Same thing with "I love you". I had to say it. When he sprung it on her a week after they started seeing each other (and a half of a week before I found out about it), it meant the world to her!

My ex is a stupid fucking bitch. I hope she gets what she has coming to her.

[This message edited by h0peless at 2:24 PM, October 9th (Wednesday)]


Posts: 1323 | Registered: Sep 2012 | From: Arizona
ontheslope
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Member # 40574
Default  Posted: 2:43 PM, October 9th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I can sympathizes when something bad happens to someone else by saying yeah that sucks, all the while thinking glad it wasn't me. Not much though is put into how that person might actually be feeling. Its a superficial understanding of what someone is going through.
Empathy on the other hand to me means something much deeper. Its that understanding. It that attempt to actually FEEL the pain of others. the proverbial "put yourself in their shoes."

Bass-ackwards... I think. I always thought that empathy is something that you can do without having been in the situation yourself. Sympathy can only happen if you have experienced a situation directly.

But I could be wrong. I often am.


Me: BH, 35
Her: WW, 36
Two girls 7 & 10
Married 12 years
Dday: July, 2009

She wants answers... I'm still trying to figure out what the questions are.


Posts: 255 | Registered: Sep 2013 | From: Maine, USA
RyeBread
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Member # 37437
Default  Posted: 2:51 PM, October 9th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

thanks wikipedia:

Sympathy is a feeling and concern. Or it can be the perception, understanding, and reaction to the distress or need of another human being.[1] This empathic concern is driven by a switch in viewpoint, from a personal perspective to the perspective of another group or individual who is in need. Empathy and sympathy are often used interchangeably. Sympathy is a feeling, but the two terms have distinct origins and meanings.[2] Empathy refers to the understanding and sharing of a specific emotional state with another person. Sympathy does not require the sharing of the same emotional state. Instead, sympathy is a concern for the well-being of another. Although sympathy may begin with empathizing with the same emotion another person is feeling, sympathy can be extended to other emotional states.

To me that means:
Sympathy - you see a homeless person and feel a sadness and desire to help them.

Empathy - you cry with someone who has lost a loved one because you feel what they are feeling.

Could be off a bit. Either way its a good thing to be able to do both. Shows your feelings are not self centered but reaching outward to someone.

[This message edited by RyeBread at 2:57 PM, October 9th (Wednesday)]


Let him that would move the world first move himself. - Socrates

Posts: 957 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: Midwest
Montreal
♂ New Member
Member # 40627
Default  Posted: 2:53 PM, October 9th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

his happened with mine in a number of ways.

1. New Dad bought her a Firefly keychain was "so sweet" for going out of his way to get her something like that. She really liked it. I didn't do sweet things like that for her.

The previous Christmas, I had bought her a $800 DSLR because she had always wanted one. I bought her a $200 lens for the stupid thing for her birthday, three weeks before Dday. In April, three months before Dday, I got her the laptop that she really wanted, which she used to start an EA online with some other POSER. But the keychain was so fucking sweet.

I didn't buy her gifts because I had to. I didn't even do it for any other reason that the fact that I enjoyed doing it. It hurt to realize that she didn't appreciate them from me but the smallest, shittiest little trinket from New Dad meant the world.

2. I told her she was beautiful every day. She had gained a few pounds and decided that I really didn't mean it and was just saying it because as her husband, I was obligated to. When her New Dad told her the same thing, it made her black little heart go pitter patter. Same thing with "I love you". I had to say it. When he sprung it on her a week after they started seeing each other (and a half of a week before I found out about it), it meant the world to her!

Not quite as bad your story, but I certainly get where you are coming from. One Christmas, as a "joke" I bought my wife a mop and bucket. "You like to clean!" I joked.

She told everyone about that, for years and years. At first I thought she was sharing the joke that I had made, until gradually it dawned on me that she didn't actually get it, and was really upset about it. So I finally I said to her "yeah, I got you the mop and bucket, but do you remember what your 4 year old and 2 year old sons got you that same Christmas?"

She hadn't remembered that the "kids" had tracked down the front page of the newspaper from the very day that they were born and framed them in a display case with a golden plate bearing their names under each paper. So yeah, remember the mop and bucket but forget all about the uber-sensitive and caring other gift.

[This message edited by Montreal at 2:54 PM, October 9th (Wednesday)]


DDay: July 6, 2013
"not divorcing"

Posts: 50 | Registered: Sep 2013
SuperDuperWonderboy
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Default  Posted: 2:59 PM, October 9th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Fucking Christmas gifts. My wife was pissed that she didn't get the exact pair of boots she wanted on Xmas morning. The store had been out for months but I had special ordered the exact pair, and they were due to be shipped the week after xmas.

She was so mad at me that I didn't get her the precious boots. I know this because her frustration at my lack of caring about her was written out for her OM to see. Yup. She bitched about the fact that she didn't get the perfect gift from me to POSER. And I'm supposed to be the asshole?


My Friends call me Wonderboy--That's Mr. SuperduperWonderboy to you Tred.


Posts: 1267 | Registered: Feb 2012 | From: Everett
foundoutlater
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Member # 32900
Default  Posted: 3:07 PM, October 9th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Both parties have to take responsibility for the environment that led to the A.

If she sees it was the environment and can't pull her head out of her ass to figure it out, well then she believes it. Hell that’s the only thing a BS can fix for a WS – say bye bye ‘cause your eyes are stained with shit.

I am thankful to the WS on SI who enlightened me that it was not because of me. It was hard to believe from the BS because well maybe that’s what you need to tell yourself you know. But when I read the WS posting this it started to shift to a belief.


Your beliefs don’t make you a better person, your behavior does.

Posts: 1062 | Registered: Jul 2011
RyeBread
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Member # 37437
Default  Posted: 3:11 PM, October 9th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

You guys hit a nerve...

gifts are definitely a sore spot with me too. I would say that 75% of the gifts I bought her (that she wanted and asked for) she took back after a week to get something else. She does that with lots of things. I finally quit getting her gifts and just said "go buy what you want".

Also...she complained that I didn't take her out on the town enough. I don't know how many times I had something planned only to be told the day of that she actually didn't feel like going and just wanted to stay home. Finally had to tell her that if she wants to go out to just let me know. Otherwise I am going to quit planning anything.


Let him that would move the world first move himself. - Socrates

Posts: 957 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: Midwest
ontheslope
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Member # 40574
Default  Posted: 3:28 PM, October 9th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

She bitched about the fact that she didn't get the perfect gift from me to POSER. And I'm supposed to be the asshole?

Yes... yes you are. That's the rub. Whatever you did wasn't what she wanted you to do (in her mind), or you did the right thing but not for the right reason (in her mind) or you did the right thing and for the right reason but she didn't notice or remember, or you were bloody perfect but she couldn't stand it to the point where she decided that she didn't deserve you and needed to self-destruct the M with an A.


Me: BH, 35
Her: WW, 36
Two girls 7 & 10
Married 12 years
Dday: July, 2009

She wants answers... I'm still trying to figure out what the questions are.


Posts: 255 | Registered: Sep 2013 | From: Maine, USA
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